I heard about this book from a friend, who spoke in hushed tones over the tops of her children’s heads as we waited in line for tables one Sunday at the local diner. That’s how you know a book is really dirty, by the way, because of the hushed tones. That’s how I found out about Judy Blume and Francine Pascal and V. C. Andrews, the holy trinity of early 1980’s soft porn. Granted, I was 11 at the time, and I didn’t know squat about sex, so I thought reading about it was amazing. I turned down pages where Something Happened (He put his hand into her pants! Shit, he’s her brother!) and re-read them over and over, just enjoying the feelings these words created in me.
“Everyone in Armonk is reading 50 Shades of Grey,” my friend Deena insisted, her hushed tones becoming less hush and more hysterical. “Moms are forgetting to pick up their kids at school! You can’t even get it! It’s sold out at bookstores everywhere!”
What started as a self-published Twilight fan fiction has turned the world of female sexuality upside down. And us guys are left to scratch our heads and wonder why. Apparently bondage and dominant-submissive relationships (yes he is dominant and not always such a nice fella) are a real turn on and totally politically correct as long as they are in the realm of fantasy for the woman in need of stimulation in the loins. What is this all about? The blurb:
When literature student Anastasia Steele is drafted to interview the successful young entrepreneur Christian Grey for her campus magazine, she finds him attractive, enigmatic and intimidating. Convinced their meeting went badly, she tries to put Grey out of her mind – until he happens to turn up at the out-of-town hardware store where she works part-time.
The unworldly, innocent Ana is shocked to realize she wants this man, and when he warns her to keep her distance it only makes her more desperate to get close to him. Unable to resist Ana’s quiet beauty, wit, and independent spirit, Grey admits he wants her too – but on his own terms.
Don’t like ads? Become a supporter and enjoy The Good Men Project ad freeShocked yet thrilled by Grey’s singular erotic tastes, Ana hesitates. For all the trappings of success – his multinational businesses, his vast wealth, his loving adoptive family – Grey is man tormented by demons and consumed by the need to control. When the couple embarks on a passionate, physical and daring affair, Ana learns more about her own dark desires, as well as the Christian Grey hidden away from public scrutiny.
—50 THINGS ABOUT 50 SHADES (OF GREY)
So, ladies, please. Can you enlighten us men as to why this book has so stirred you to make it into a national craze? And guys, do you have any thoughts on women going bananas over erotica in which kinky sex is featured so prominently?
One thing is for sure. If you haven’t heard of this book yet, you are about to hear more about it. A lot more.
Being a woman myself and having known a good many women in my life time I have often heard or discussed the “fantasy” of bondage or dom/sub play. It has never been uncommon among women, just not widely spoken about outside female circles. I think that today’s environment allows for more open discussion of this. A contributing factor to the popularity of this book is that BDSM is also a little “trendy” at the moment . I think the book is just the perfect commercial marriage of those two factors. I think that its important to mention that the idea… Read more »
There’s been a long-running trend that pop culture commentators are just now noticing but that’s been going on for a decade or two now. More and more “romance novels” are being written with increasingly explicit language. Forget the “bodice rippers” that your mother read as a young woman. They’re still out there, but more and more of the romance novels are in the “erotic fiction” category, and fewer and fewer of them use euphemisms anymore. They tend to be eschew phrases like “his eager manhood” and simply say “his cock.” Forget about the ones with Fabio on the cover. Think… Read more »
That’s too bad. Where ever are we going to find such gems as, “the hardness of his maleness entered the wetness of her softness?”
Turns out that women have all kinds of oddball fantasies, often about things they cannot or do not want to do in real life. Why is this such a shock? Must be remain perpetually married to the idea that fantasy is all about wish-fulfillment and the only way to have a satisfying sex life is to have those fantasies come true? Or can we let go of that and let ourselves imagine things like vampires, were-things, aliens, tentacle monsters, and things that are illegal without freaking out? I’ll bet any odds that most of the women reading this stuff, and… Read more »
Yaoi or any slash fanfiction that is written and consumed primarily by women.
Fellas, when you bore your woman in bed, and sometimes even if you don’t, she might end up reading erotica of all kinds or even watching porn that appeals to her often secret desires. No harm in that. No need for alarm, either; unless you are boring her in bed. Most ladies keep these desires secret for fear of being judged, because porn and erotica, and the kinks that inspire them, are wrongfully branded as deviant. If all parties are adult and consenting humans, what they desire is not only not wrong, it’s nobody else’s business. Men, if this worries… Read more »
“It’s not just about what we want in the bedroom, after all.”
it isn’t? I thought the new feminist mantra was “good sex is selfish sex, so women should learn to be more selfish in bed”
I can near guarantee that “mommy porn” was not devised around a marketing table. It would be the biggest bumble ever if even remotely true. The whole genre revolves around our desire for sexual irresistibility. The “mommy porn” term is annoying because it is self-deprecating – it correctly identifies a very real and narcissistic desire. And I mean that in a good way.
“….was not devised around a marketing table.”
AshleyMadison asserted the same thing…that their site was borne out of a need, out of sexual desires. An article on here, I think it was the CEO, who had said that he was only helping people already doing affairs or have intentions — to help them do it better, anonymously. So he claims there’s a need for his website; that AshleyMadison’s providing a service to existing needs. He denies the site is creating this need or creating more. That’s good public relations and great bullsh!tting. LOL. 😀
Your argument simply doesn’t make sense – it’s like saying OkCupid is creating a need for single people to date. Ashley Madison is not creating a need – Ashley Madison is facillitating something that was already going on. Of course that likely means an increase in infidelity because A-M makes it “easier” to do so. But men and women have been having affairs long before A-M was created and they will long after A-M is gone. My own experience bears this out. While on business trips I’ve had offers to join someone for drinks and “more” on a few occasions;… Read more »
Maybe I was not clear – I was referring to the supposed marketing term “mommy porn”
I doubt Ashley Madison would market their services with a tagline like: “F*ck your way into purgatory”, or Mountain Dew marketing their soft drink with: “it’s refreshing, and it looks just like pee!”
You typically don’t try and alienate your target demographic…
That’s what I like about this site, there’s a nice mix of viewpoints so it’s not just everyone agreeing with everyone else when it comes to these topics.
The only thing I have to add is that a book I recently read “A Billion Wicked Thoughts” deals with this very subject (romance novels) as a part of the differences between male and female sexual desire and I found it insightful and true.
I’m going to say that it’s because smart women (especially women in my age group – 40s) know that finding a man who is interested you as as person rather than as an orifice is virtually impossible to find. The man in this book (although deeply defective emotional ) pays attention to the female character. women like attention and sadly enough , some women are so afraid t be alone, that they will put up with all kinds of bullshit . They get involved with porn addicts, abusive men. etc. The women who read this book are probably so lonely… Read more »
“WE dress our little girls up like grown women while grown women run to get plastic surgery that makes their labia look like prepubescent girls’ labia.” The problem was because showing the inner labia was considered obscene and would get magazines pushed up the rating into the X rating, or refused classification (In Australia at least) so they had to show the vulva with a small inner labia to pass the censors. “I’m going to say that it’s because smart women (especially women in my age group – 40s) know that finding a man who is interested you as as… Read more »
> I’m going to say that it’s because smart women (especially women in my age group – 40s) know > that finding a man who is interested you as as person rather than as an orifice is virtually > impossible to find. Oh, please. Start with the nice misandry why don’t you. If women are having trouble finding men that not interesting in their person-hood, they need to start looking in the mirror. > The man in this book (although deeply defective emotional ) pays attention to the female > character. women like attention and sadly enough , some women… Read more »
So you countered generalizations about men with generalizations about women. Good job.
“Ask a woman if she wants a complete wet noodle, or an overbearing, abusive men that demands absolute obedience, and in 90% of the cases they choose the latter.”
Yeah, I would choose none of the above. If those are my options, I would choose to be single. Or date a woman, I’m not that straight to put up with those choices of men.
“Generalizations” aren’t generalizations if they’re the truth.
WHY AREN’T THERE ROMANCE NOVELS WRITTEN FOR MEN? (Are there, or am I clueless?!)
Is it because men want to be able to get off in less than 15 minutes, instead of reading through a 230 page novel to do the same thing? So porn is a better answer for men? I think, in comparison to novels, the negative thing with porn is that: porn videos lack romantic gestures and emotional tones — it lacks in depth, character and plot; porn has no patience.
Speaking as someone who views amateur porn, I add the romance in myself in the fantasy, the porn is the visual aid to see the fantasy better. It could also be that men are more visually stimulated, I can be fully aroused in about 15 seconds and from what I hear from women this is rare. There’s also the just wanting sex bit, as the romance tends to make me feel extremely lonely as I have no partner whilst the focus on sex can just lead to the getting off quick although it can be up to an hour if… Read more »
That’s the most romantic explanation against romance that I’ve ever heard, Archy. 🙂
Guess I am a romantic deep at heart 😛
That’s lovely.
Sarcasm or serious?:P I don’t want everyone to assume that all of us guys are simply looking to treat pornstars like sluts and don’t fantasize about stuff that is quite “sweet”. Since I haven’t had a partner in a long time I fantasize about having one, I’d be quite happy with one woman who is loving, caring, romantic, and enthusiastic in the bedroom. I see so much said of the negatives of male fantasy and not enough on the good, hell many of my fantasies are just being in love n having wild sex with that person, something many take… Read more »
Oh not sarcastic at all! That truly was lovely.
Thank-you, glad it came across that way. I was expecting it to be seen as still perverted, disgusting, so typically “male”. Guess that is what I’ve expected people to view those who view porn as such, I grew up knowing too many puritans:P.
No, that’s not it at all, and if anyone has called you a pervert, that says a lot more about them than it does about you. I know plenty of men who are exactly like you in this regard. The best of luck to you. Whenever you do find your partner, she will be a very, very lucky woman.
Hope so :D. So many of us, male and female, are just looking for love. I wish people focused on that more than the jaded views, I think nearly all of us simply want to be loved and to love.
Archy, whenever you comment on amateur porn, I want to give you a high five, because it is always so mature and totally true.
“And maybe men are not used to romance? I rarely hear it discussed and it’s seen more as a burden, or maybe men view sex AS romantic in itself? I know I sure think of it as romantic.”
Spot-on with the men-and-romance stuff. Our society expects men to not be interested in romance, to only be doing it for the women in their lives. Which is just not true.
Hi-5! I just hate when people talk of porn as ONLY the pro industry and forget that porn is simply a medium, anyone can make and produce it, grab a camera and do something sexual on it and congrats, your first porno. I view amateur porn as the way to save the genre quite frankly from some terrible themes, but even in the pro industry there is a huge amount of decent stuff and with the internet a lot of entrepreneur porn sites made by the actor/actress. I think the romance stuff gets lumped in with the “nice guy (TM)”… Read more »
@ MichelleG
In all the romance I’ve read the romantic gestures go one way–to the woman. Add in the heroine expecting the hero to mind read and it’s hardly free of its own extremely problematic dynamics.
As far as I know, romance novels are written by women for women…so I can see why the romantic gestures are one-sided; women want to be romanced, and so a female writer would understand the reader’s desires. But what if this was flipped: a male author writing a romantic novel for men, but in the perspective of the heroine romancing the hero? Hence, this would be the grown-up version of comic book porn or replaces that type of material? Hey…so this is an untapped market, maybe someone can get on the ball with this — start up writing romance novels… Read more »
“Porn has no patience.” Well then you need to find yourself some different porn. Not-the-best acting often make any sort of dialogue ineffective, but you can still create a romantic environment without a detailed history of the characters or much dialogue. You have to take the time to really look for it, but you can find porn that’s more focused on two people enjoying each other rather than a quest for orgasm. Amateur porn is actually quite good for this; when it’s an actual couple (or two) who’re having sex. One of my biggest problems with a lot of porn… Read more »
@HeatherN, Clearly, porn is something that deeply resonates with Men. I am not against “alternative” forms of porn (read: porn that is more friendly to the POV of Women), but it seems to me that porn as we understand it is somehow “base” or unevolved”, when in truth (per EvoPsych) it is simply a mirror of the sexual inclinations of Males. Simply put, Men by and large do not have the need or desire to engage in long and drawn out romantic scenarios and the like. Men like to get right to the point and enjoy sex with as wide… Read more »
Why is it a hard problem for women to accept? Here are a few thoughts on that. 1) We live in a culture where both men and women are taught to repress all sorts of desire, pair bond and get with the middle class ideal. Visually stimulated men having lots of sex doesn’t fit that culturally prescribed narrative, for better or worse. 2) Women feel a double standard in place where men should be allowed to enjoy other women, but they should not be allowed to enjoy other men. (if they do desire that is sometimes a question). 3) Cognitive… Read more »
Hello Julie, I’ve been reading a bit of your commentary here at GMP, so I’m a bit familiar with who you are. Nice to meet you. Replies below: “Why is it a hard problem for women to accept? Here are a few thoughts on that.” O: OK; but before we begin, have you had the chance to checkout the references I mentioned above? If so, what do you say about that? Have you read the book “A Billion Wicked Thoughts”? If not, I think I might have something that you’ll be interested in seeing. “1) We live in a culture… Read more »
Nice to meet you too! O: OK; but before we begin, have you had the chance to checkout the references I mentioned above? If so, what do you say about that? Have you read the book “A Billion Wicked Thoughts”? If not, I think I might have something that you’ll be interested in seeing. J-Nope, not yet, but I will put it on my “immediate to read” list. O: Correction: MEN are taught to repress all sorts of desire; Women, are not. The very fact that we are discussing the latest installment of “Mommy Porn” (not my term, mind you)… Read more »
Hi Julie, Replies below: J-Nope, not yet, but I will put it on my “immediate to read” list. O: Good; it’s nice to have opinions informed by (the latest) information, yes? j: I think women are taught to repress things. O: Any evidence to back this assertion up, or is this merely your opinion? “I think we both are.” O: Again – evidence, please? “Women aren’t supposed to slut it up.” O: Studies have shown that Women themselves don’t enjoy “slutting it up”. “I got those messages when I was growing up in the 80′s. “don’t ask boys out, don’t… Read more »
I have no time to holla back right now, and that is such a lengthy list that I will likely cut, paste, and email. Got panels to go to all day and a show to host tonight. It appears also that we dialogue very differently and so I’ll address that in the email. I will sum up that it’s my opinion that if men and women (not to mention gender queer, LGBT etc) both want to have better sex, better sexual literacy and more respect for such, they’d be better off working on it together. I don’t see it as… Read more »
Hi Julie, In that both Men and Women, regardless as to their sexual orientation(s), are human by default, I find it rather silly to insert such a term into the discussion; it takes away the focus of what truly is at issue here. I have put forth a number of premises and propositions that you have yet to directly refute; and on those areas of the discussion you appear to be most strident, the basis of said statements and positions appear to be based on more personal, rather than empirical grounds. For example, you’ve gone on record as “not buying… Read more »
In the car. Not a scientist nor researcher. Can’t take the hours to research today. Not strident but yes have personal opinions on experience. If you want more dialogue and conversation I’ll email.
Hi Julie, “In the car.” O: I agree that texting/browsing the Web while driving is not a very good idea. “Not a scientist nor researcher.” O: Neither am I, nor is it necessary to be either in order to be well-informed. “Can’t take the hours to research today.” O: Wikipedia is your friend. 🙂 “Not strident but yes have personal opinions on experience.” O: From Wiktionary, the third definition for the word “strident” was “vigorous” – which was what I was thinking as I read your (many) comments here at GMP. Curious then that they would be backed by mere… Read more »
>Also, by calling it “mommy porn” as opposed to “written erotica” it is infantilizing the >genre, the women who read and enjoy it, and their sexuality. As in saying MAN PORN is >real porn, this silly embarrassing stuff is just for those middle aged biddies who don’t >really like sex, and don’t care if the work they read is not well written. Then again there >aren’t always high production values on porn films. And I suppose that porn in general >(no matter the kind) isn’t seen as mainstream, high class (in class structure), and we >find all kinds of way… Read more »
“If the written porn is “written erotica” than film porn should be called “visual erotica”.”
I think this may be the first time you and I truly agree 😉 It should be part of the erotic arts as you say, and humans should have the opportunity to become erotically literate with all the education and ethics that entails.
—““Porn” in itself is derogatory term”
Why is “porn” considered a derogatory term? I don’t see it that way. I don’t think its derogatory at all.
__”The real demeaning and infantalizing term is “romance novels”. … “romance novels” is just disingenuous, infantilizing and/or attempting to make women look better than they really are. “Women don’t like pron, written, visual or otherwise, of course not, they’re better and sweeter than that. They just read romance novels so they can flutter their eyelids at the romance and cuteness.””
AGREED! That is so true!
”The real demeaning and infantalizing term is “romance novels”. … “romance novels” is just disingenuous, infantilizing and/or attempting to make women look better than they really are. “Women don’t like pron, written, visual or otherwise, of course not, they’re better and sweeter than that. They just read romance novels so they can flutter their eyelids at the romance and cuteness.””
Agreed on this part. And this is bad for women, too. So a woman who does like porn (visual or written) and sex is “less better” and “less sweet?” Here we go with the slut-shaming again.
“Agreed on this part. And this is bad for women, too. So a woman who does like porn (visual or written) and sex is “less better” and “less sweet?” Here we go with the slut-shaming again.”
Welcome to society’s view of male sexuality, nothing sweet n romantic about it. There is free beer n chips on the table there, don’t forget to scratch your balls n be totally caveman like!
/sarcasm 😛
I’m getting real tired of the romance = better than sex type mentality, they’re both nice things and don’t need each other to exist…Just love them both!
Well now we’re going back to the whole discussion I had with Brandon here. Which is to say, I don’t agree with separating sexuality along the lines of biological sex quite this strictly. Perhaps it is my own bias, bit I know too many people who do not fit with the ‘typical’ expressions of sexuality for males or females. There are plenty of women who also like to get off quickly, sometimes. And there are plenty of men who enjoy romantic scenarios far more than a quickie. Sexuality is different on an individual basis, and no one should feel shame… Read more »
Hello Heather, Replies below: “Well now we’re going back to the whole discussion I had with Brandon here. Which is to say, I don’t agree with separating sexuality along the lines of biological sex quite this strictly.” O: Why not? On what factual basis do you disagree with it? Please explain? “Perhaps it is my own bias,” O: It is… “bit I know too many people who do not fit with the ‘typical’ expressions of sexuality for males or females.” O: Outliers do not obliterate the rule, they only strengthen them. Again, I am proceeding on the basis of actual… Read more »
“It is a documented fact that most Women do NOT like the idea of one night stands, etc. Fact.” Then who, pray tell, are all the men out there having one night stands with? Presumably one-night stands only exist in the world of gay men? And lesbians are all in committed relationships? “On the other hand, for example, Game and PUAs are frequently derided.” Sex in the City was actually about these rich, white, women who were having sex in relationships. I personally hate the show…but that’s besides the point. They were not having sex just to have sex (well… Read more »
Hi heather,
I have a better idea: how about you taking a bit of time out to read up on the sources i have mentioned over the course of this thread; that way, we can have a much better informed discussion?
Fair enough?
O.
> men are not allowed to wear skirts
You don’t need to forbid it! Men don’t wear skirts! MEN wear KILTS!! 😀
> Clearly, porn is something that deeply resonates with Men. I am not against “alternative” > forms of porn (read: porn that is more friendly to the POV of Women), but it seems to me > that porn as we understand it is somehow “base” or unevolved”, when in truth (per > EvoPsych) it is simply a mirror of the sexual inclinations of Males. Simply put, Men by and > large do not have the need or desire to engage in long and drawn out romantic scenarios > and the like. Men like to get right to the point and… Read more »
JG,
On what factual basis do you disagree with what I have said and presented. Please explain (and present said evidence)?
O.
There are, but even if there weren’t I’m not sure being turned on by words rather than images should be identified as a superior characteristic.
Umm, romance novels ARE porn… just for a different audience.
erm, well, porn (visual porn) also has a female audience.
@MichelleG,
I suppose the resonse to your question must be, why MUST there be “romantic novels” for Men? I mean, why can’t we simply enjoy the essential differences between Men and Women on this score – that Men tend to enjoy the visual more than Women (read: porn) and Women tend to enjoy the written/spoken word more than Men (read: “mommy porn”). I see nothing in the least wrong with this.
Why do you?
O.
As mentioned before I see little wrong with the difference so long is the one for women isn’t infantlized and remarked upon by “mommying it”. Call them porn. or call them erotic tools.
But don’t diminish either experience (women saying…well ours is EROTICA yours is just gross, or men saying…Oh those silly ladies with their silly books).
It’s either all good for us, or its none of it good.
Actually, I really hate the “mommy-fication” of things. It’s clearly a marketing and advertising strategy and it takes regular women and places them into a mode/role that is marketable to. Happens with men and dad stuff too, but I can’t imagine there would be “daddy porn” unless it was some kind of gay role play scenario.
I was wondering why the title called it ‘mommy porn’ – I thought it was going to be about pornography featuring pregnant women. Is that a thing, now – calling erotica mommy porn?
HeatherN,
I’m not sure, but when I hear the term “Mommy Porn”, I hear something akin to “Soccer Moms”, the term that was used to identify a suburban, White, middle class married female demographic for purposes of voting in the 2004 presidential elections. I think “Mommy Porn” refers to this demographic. And again, I have no problems in the least with said demo.
O.
Got no problem with the idea of demographics but the terms are dismissive. What it were “Camper dads” or “Fiesty seniors” or something more race related. It’s media language and I dislike most of it to say the very least. I get why its used. I do. I just think it’s reductive.
Yes, I thought that as well. I was thinking, “wow, prego porn has gone mainstream???”
Actually, I really hate the “mommy-fication” of things. Julie, I think it relates to something far more pervasive in our culture. Ayelet Waldman’s essay Truly, Madly, Guiltily speaks to an erotic transference that occurs when women have children, replacing her identity as woman and lover with that of mother. If her generalization is true, I can understand why some would target women using the identity they’ve adopted for themselves. From Mommy & Me classes through the minivan chauffeur known as the Soccer Mom, if your identity is first and foremost as “mother” then “mommy porn” and other mommification seems less… Read more »
Julie,
I don’t recall seeing many (if any) Men calling the literature in question “Mommy Porn”; its something that seems to be coming from Women themselves, since they are the ones who are writing about it, in the main.
And actually, there is a kind of “Daddy Porn”, if you will, in the gay porn genres. Again, the book Billion Wicked Thoughts addresses this. Have you heard of/read it?
O.
I think the “mommy porn” thing is an advertising/media trope. I hate it. I don’t care if it’s men or women utilizing it, it’s dumb. I’m a mother, but being a “mommy” identity isn’t for me. Mommy jeans, mommy vacays, mommy drinks! Ugh. Yes, I know of daddy porn, I do.
But I DO care “who’s doing it” because it is very important to be precise about these things. You are barking up the wrong tree. You need to take it to those who are actually using these terms you don’t like, and last time I checked, it wasn’t guys doing it; it was Women.
O.
How do we know it was women? It could have been a room filled with men and women marketing execs. If you can find me “mommy” zero 😉 who started the trend, I’ll happily take it up with her ;).
Point is, at this point it’s becoming ubiquitous and I find it gross.
Julie,
Why must I find “Mommy Zero”? Please explain?
You were the one to expresse so much disdain at the term “Mommy Porn”. I merely suggested that it isn’t Men who did this labeling. Seems to me that the burden is on you, since you are so offended, to identify the appropriate parties and then tell them about themselves. Not mine.
O.
Do you truly think I”m serious about you finding them? That’s tongue in cheek given how hard it would be. I was bantering.
Also, I’m not really offended so much as contemptuous towards the marketing tropes and people who come up with them.
“Do you truly think I”m serious about you finding them?”
O: Yes.
O.
Well the porn most men watch to get off, maybe takes 5 to 15 minutes of video footage…there is no romance in that; whereas with a romance novel — that in of itself is like foreplay…there’s a storyline, there are character personas, there’s mystery… and there’s the aspect of FALLING IN LOVE. Women fall in love with the characters, much like the teen girls who fall in love with Edward in Twilight. The book builds up the romance through the storyline, the characters; it doesn’t just give you straight porn right away. Furthermore, as a reader, you’re engaged LONG-TERM; you’re… Read more »
“And with reading romance books, you’re more likely to build up realistic imagery of REAL men; you fill in the gap — maybe you picture the hero is your husband, your boyfriend…the Fedex guy which you have a crush on. Conversely, watching porn videos takes away your imagination and connection to real people in your lives, and instead fills your computer screen with photoshopped, busty size 0 babes who are never older than 24 years of age, with caked on make-up and no cellulite. Or even if you found home-grown porn videos — they’re strangers to you…never someone you know… Read more »
I applaud this post and agree whole-heartedly.
Or, to summarize: “Female porn (i.e., romance novels) appeal to me as a woman in ways I like, whereas male porn (i.e., adult movies) appeal to men in ways that I don’t like. Therefore female porn is superior.”
And I’m sure it is… to you.
I’ve never heard of romance novels being the precursor to infidelity, unrealistic views of female bodies, lack of affection for spouse, pedophilia, sexual assault etc. But there’s been studies where these transgressions have stemmed from excessive porn watching — porn addiction. There was an article on here talking about that a few days ago, pointing out this correlation with porn videos. So sure it’s just me 😉 LOL. I have not read 50 shades of grey nor intend to, and haven’t read a romance book that I can recall.
Yes, the same things have been said about comic books, cartoon violence, playing RPG, tv programs with violence, violent movies, violent computer games, sex computer games, animated porn of the child variety. You know what all those claims have in common? They’re lies. It’s fear mongering to get votes, sensationalism to get attention, and at the end of the line: all lies, all false. When you go check real statistics, real research, you find that whenever these forms entertainment emerge, all the bad things they’re accused of promoting, actually go down. What’s the country with the largest amount of legal… Read more »
Correlation does not imply causation….
“You’re generalizations are way off for my experience because I actually fill in the gaps with people I know, if I want to I will watch porn and see the person I know who I have a crush on for instance and the visuals simply fill in the body as I haven’t seen the crush naked. I do my best to guess what they look like but I find it easier on my imagination to have the visual aid. Simply watching the act of sex itself is sexy, it doesn’t mean the viewer is thinking of having sex with the… Read more »
“Well the porn most men watch to get off, maybe takes 5 to 15 minutes of video footage”
And some women. Ahem. I would prefer my 5-15 minutes of video footage to orgasm than a 150 page book, or however long.
The appeal of THIS book is simple: It’s a “Twilight” fan fic. Don’t underestimate the pent-up sexual frustration of all the non-young adults who enjoyed the series. This is fulfilling that need. The fans talk to each other, too, so they all buy it with a wink-wink, “we know it’s Bella and Edward”. They buy, they review, and all of a sudden it’s “hot” on Amazon. It could have been sweet and darling, and it would still be a best seller. Being a popular Twilight fan fic writer is like getting on Oprah’s Book Club. So I say don’t ascribe… Read more »
I’m into evo psych, but I don’t think patriarchy is universal. We’re bonobos forced to live as chimps is one way to look at it.
So far I haven’t really seen any reviews of this book on here, only comments about the abstract concepts tied into the plot. If you’re looking for a review from a woman who has actually read it, here you go: I had a major problem with this book. I have no problem with bondage/fetish/dominating men, and have read quite a few romance novels containing those themes (and liked them!). Many women enjoy fantasies, but this book tended to cause an affront to intelligent women by straying so far from reality that it reflected poorly on not only bondage itself, but… Read more »
Women like to read their porn, and enjoy various types of it, some of which is aggressive. I could speculate that some women’s low self esteems have something to do with this type of twilight based idiocy, but that’s not my place to say.
Yea, I’ve heard about this latest round of “Mommy Porn”, and while I’m not surprised in the least about said “porn”, I am a bit surprised by the responses here. No matter where you fall on the sociopolitical spectrum, the truth is (as Alex and a few others have already noted above), the facts are indeed out there. Here’s the study (or rather, the NTY article that was based on the study) that Alex was talking about: What Do Women Want? http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/magazine/25desire-t.html?_r=1 As for the universality of “patriarchy”: I would highly recommend the book “Evolutionary Psychology”, third edition, by David… Read more »
So women like erotic stories where a man is dominant, authoritarian, and perhaps even a full on rape.
So, what else is new?
Yea, really. I just don’t get what all the fuss is about.
O.
Meh, women are reading erotic lit. I’m amazed this is surprising anyone.
All I have to add is that women aren’t always the sub in a ds relationship. In fact, as far as I’ve seen, its pretty 50/50.
That’s weird and sad, a reflection of sadness and confusion about pleasure and pain. I have a very high libido, so please don’t play off my next comment as me being a prude. Anne Rice and these other authors are sick. This is a very dangerous slope we are on.
Dangerous slope to what? Consentual spanking? 😉
Here’s the thing…just because erotica and bondage doesn’t turn you on, doesn’t mean it’s disgusting. It’s just different.
“Here’s the thing…just because erotica and bondage doesn’t turn you on, doesn’t mean it’s disgusting. It’s just different.”
+1
http://www.thefrisky.com/2009-06-01/first-time-for-everything-spanking/ –> good article about a woman who is reconciling her feminism with the fact that spanking/submission in sex is sexually pleasing for her.
Also, being submissive in bed is NOT the same as submissive in life. It all depends on the individual woman and what she wants in bed.
This is not new stuff…. The Story of O in 1965, Anne Rice’s Sleeping Beauty series in 1983. Women like to read erotic fantasy, and sometimes some hardcore kinky stuff can be fun to read. I think a lot of women are reading this for the same reason they read the Sleeping Beauty books… curiosity and harmless fantasy.
Even still I can assure you; many women LOVE kinky sex (including BDSM), and in a proper D/s relationship… the sub has all the power and the Dom does all the work.
Nothing wrong with that.
I’d say that in a proper D/s relationship power is negotiated rather than one partner holding all the power, but I hear what you’re saying.
Most women prefer men to be dominant. I am not sure why any of this is surprising. It was covered by Nancy Friday a long time ago. I guess this is a surprise if your a feminist. But then feminism has always been a big load of bullshit. People forget one thing. Something no feminist has ever been able to explain. And a massive fact that has been staring feminists in the face for a long time. Why are patriarchies universal. Societies have different religions, different customs, different clothes, manners…there are tonnes of things that vary across cultures. But there… Read more »
So men rule because women expect them too?
Sounds exhausting.
His analysis is pretty inflammatory, but men ruling because women expect them to is pretty on the dot.
Depends on what exactly you’re talking about when it comes to power. But even so….no it’d be more accurate to say that in cases where men really and truly are in charge (politically), it’s because both>/i> men and women expect them too. Not all men are going to be in charge in such a society….and so it is both men and women who are giving up control/freedom for security.
Whoops screwed up the italics there.
“Sounds exhausting.”
IT IS. Much much much worse than exhausting actually.
Mate, you can’t really say that anything is a cultural universal, particularly when it comes to the power structure of societies. That implies that we actually understand the power structures in all societies…which we don’t.
We needn’t understand something to say that it is universal. Newton’s didn’t “understand” gravity….whatever understand means. He had no idea where it came from and why it was the way it was. He simply advocated for a universal law of gravitation that fit most of the empirical phenomenon then observable like planetary orbits and their perturbations, the speed of free fall etc.
I think your right that we don’t understand why patriarchy is universal. That doesn’t mean that we can’t say that it is universal based on empirical observations.
No what I am saying is that we do not understand the social structures of every society to even classify them. You cannot say that patriarchy is universal, unless you know enough about every society in history to classify them all as patriarchal. Which is something we can’t do. Not to mention, if you’re limiting your discussion of ‘who is in charge’ to who is politically in charge, that over-simplifies the realities of power in a society. The gender of the person (or people) who is/are calling the shots on a larger-scale is not always the same as the gender… Read more »
That’s because matriarchies are often defined in juxtaposition to patriarchy; in the “universal patriarchy” men rule and women are oppressed. As such, there is no documented case of a society where women rule and the men are excluded from power. However, there are plenty of reliably documented matrilineal societies where money and property are passed from mother to daughter; the difference is that matrilineal societies are egalitarian rather than dichotomous. Patriarchy took hold when societies became agrarian. Although far from universal, most societies are patriarchal because the basic biology of childbirth and childrearing left women responsible for infant survival. The… Read more »
False. Patriarchy came into existence when women put it into existence when they invented marriage, all the way back when we still hunter gatherers, if not earlier. The concept is really very simple, you have an alpha male, and a harem of women, then a bunch of beta and omega males around that herd. The beta males have nothing to do, except occasionally catch something form themselves, and the rest of the time they can enjoy their own creativity. The first guy invented a hammock and enjoyed swinging back and forth on it. The other built himself a sun screen… Read more »
Actually ThatUglyGirl is quite right in what she says…except that a matrilineal isn’t inherently more or less egalitarian than a patrilineal society; they are just two different ways of tracking lineage. Your historical narrative is inaccurate and reductionist. I’m torn between breaking it down point by point, or just pointing you in the direction of a good archaeology textbook…so I’ll do some combination of the two. Firstly, your generalization about hunter-gatherer societies is outdated and inaccurate. (For a more up-to-date analysis check out these books here and here). What it boils down to is that societies were more egalitarian prior… Read more »
>Actually ThatUglyGirl is quite right in what she says… No, she isn’t. >Now as for the invention of marriage, there actually isn’t any evidence to suggest that a >formal institution of marriage existed in prehistory. Without written records, it is difficult to >know whether people who were co-habitating were actually married, or whether they >were just co-habitating. Every formal institution started out as people just doing things. They made up rules when “just doing things” presented problems for society, in the case of marriage/cohabitated when the couple had troubles, to the point of breaking up and how to do deal… Read more »
Alrighty well instead of replying to everything here (because it is wildly off topic) I’ll just invite you to e-mail me at [email protected] if you’d like to continue this discussion.
Everyone’s sexuality is different, and different things turn us on. For example, I LOVE to read smutty stories about stuff I’ll never do (or want to do), or can’t do (like gay sex). What one enjoys for mental titillation often has little to do with one actually enjoys doing during sex. But newsflash–some women like D/s. They enjoy being submissive in their sexual encounters. It gets them off. It’s not for every woman, for heaven’s sake, just as being dominant isn’t for every man (or flip the duality–some women like to be dominant, some men submissive). Some people like to… Read more »
Um.
Haven’t read the book. But in general:
Women like stories about women being sexually submissive for the same reason men like stories about men being sexually submissive. We’re tired and stressed out, and we like the idea of somebody else driving for a while.
Maybe this needs a more complicated explanation than that, but I don’t see why.
A voice of reason! I’d also want to add that I think the fact that because our culture is one where self-control is so highly valued, particularly with regards to sex, sometimes people like the idea of not being in control for a bit.
Plus, the theme of power and dominance is built into any society, and there’s no chance of people being unaware of it. Adding it to intimate relationships, even in fantasy and porn, is so inevitable as to be considered automatic.
As for the book: If women are enjoying some porn, great. More power to ’em.
I applaud this post.
You will not get a straight answer, because historically and biologically, a big part of female sexuality lies in being deceptive about its’ own sexuality.
Not helpful.
I’d like to try this experiment, see? I want to tie you and MichelleG into a dynamo, I think the resultant repulsive field between you two would create a perpetual motion field.
We might get anti-gravity out of it too. Who knows?
My interest is not “being helpful”, but truth.
Women have been shown to not give truthful answers in every single survey on female sexuality, even when it’s anonymous.
In fact, studies show that women’s conscious perception of her own sexuality often doesn’t match her biological sexual responses. You might not like this fact, but it is a fact. Women can’t give responses in surveys about their own sexuality.
Necessary qualifier: Women *often& can’t give *useful* responses in surveys about their own sexuality.
Women send mixed signals without even knowing it, and this is well-established as part of the human female’s mating process.
@ Alex,
Your original post ascribed a level of agency to women that doesn’t exist in any human being on this planet.
They are simultaneously as introspective and self aware as a bodhisattva and as evil as Josef Mengele? More likely the average woman, like the average person, doesn’t have a clue about their motivations, sexual or otherwise.
Which is funny because we have one person in this thread who is convinced women have no agency, and another who thinks women have inhuman amounts of agency.
I never said anything about agency. I’m talking about after-the-fact self-analysis I said that women aren’t consciously aware of their sexuality or how it works. This is a fact. Those same studies found that the men were aware of their own sexuality and how it works. So there is a gender difference. In one study they literally hooked men and women up to machines and exposed them to different stimuli, be it literature or visual, and found the women’s conscious interpretations didn’t match their physical response. I’m going off of memory here, but read some of the papers that try… Read more »
“I never said anything about agency.”
Deception usually requires intent.
But, you know what, if that’s not what you meant then it isn’t what you meant.
If you have links I’d be interested in reading them.
I believe the study Alex is referring to is the one in 2005 out of Northwestern University that purported to show the non-existence of bisexual men (a subsequent study exposed the selection bias in the first). In it they also showed that women showed a physical sexual response while reporting no arousal. You might also read the New York Times Magazine essay What Do Women Want? Another study (I can’t recall where this one was conducted, but I think it was a Canadian university) tested different study methods for self-reports of sexual activity. In it I believe they showed a… Read more »
Ah well that study that “proved” that bisexual men don’t exist was a pile of pants anyway. (As you mentioned, Nick).
I’ve never heard about the one where you mention women lying about infidelity…but if it only interviewed Canadian and American women…well then it’s not about the fact that they’re female; it’s about the fact that our societies place a huge value on a woman’s fidelity. (I’d be interested to know whether the same difference was noted in men who were asked about their fidelity).
Heather, the study wasn’t necessarily poorly constructed; it’s that their recruitment methodology was horribly biased. The subsequent study was conducted by the same researcher as the first, and correcting for the bias found results that repudiated the first study.
As for the infidelity self-report, you might have missed it but I did write that there was no difference in rates among men who reported to the researcher or anonymously to the computer. Otherwise it would have been disingenuous to have characterized it as being a “women” thing.
Ah yes, I totally missed the last bit of that sentence, sorry. Anyway…my point still stands that in order to understand why women were apparently lying about their past sexual experiences, you have to take their cultural values into account. (And lest typhon jump on me, let me be clear – I’m not saying that culture will always trump agency. 🙂 ) So the reason women in this particular study were apparently lying isn’t because women are inherently deceitful when it comes to sex. It’s probably more to do with the way our culture has emphasized fidelity, especially for women.… Read more »
I can’t speak to why the discrepancy, but it did satisfy the statistical argument for me. We’ve often seen infidelity rates that are wildly divergent between men and women, numbers like 15% and 9% respectively (representing infidelity in the last year). Discovering the numbers are more like 15% and 14% puts my statistician brain at ease.
Ah, I can dig it. 🙂 Yeah that bit about understanding the discrepancy was more directed at Alek, I suppose….who said that women “historically and biologically” lie about their sexuality. I guess really the best way to compare the two would be to look at the different ways in which men and women are shamed about their sexuality. Women are told not to sleep around, which could inform part of why the study found that women lie about it. My understanding is that one of the biggest taboos for a man, sexually…would be to identify as straight and yet enjoy… Read more »
:rolleyes: Yes, because men are told, “You go man, you go sleep around!”
Seriously, how many books and stories aren’t there that tell women it is empowering and okay to destroy your marriage, including cheating on your boyfriend/husband?
Eat, Pray, Love being a well-known one.
There was a study that showed women were physically aroused by animals having sex in documentaries. Seeing sex could simply be triggering the body to ready itself whilst the mind can be bored, etc.
Well that’s true too, Archy. @J.G. – the messages we send to people about fidelity are different based on gender. Just because there are sex-positive messages for women out there doesn’t mean that they are the mainstream. There are pro-gay messages out there too, but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t louder and more ubiquitous anti-gay messages that our society tells us. So what I’m saying is that the pro-fidelity message told to women is, in many ways, stronger than that told to men (in part because our society suggests that men are more biologically inclined to sleep around). Similarly,… Read more »
Where? Point them out to me, because I haven’t seen a pro-fidelity message told to women in over a decade. If a woman is cheating, in fact, there is negative messages to the males for not being man enough to keep a woman from cheating.
And more biologically inclined to sleep around for men isn’t pro-infidelity, quite the contrary, they’re shaming words about men’s deficiency when it comes to fidelity. You’re a disgusting typically male pig for sleeping around, not an awesome guy’s guy when you sleep around.
Yes Archy, there are been studies showing that women’s bodies lubricate while watching any type of sexual congress. But their minds don’t feel aroused. They may be gearing up to be penetrated (lubrication helps avoid tearing) but they aren’t feeling desire. Just because a body is ready to have sex doesn’t mean that body is going to really enjoy having that sex. Necessarily. In the movie Orgasm Inc, that same truth was determined. Researchers did a test where women took a pill like viagra or a placebo and watched porn (traditional hetero). No demonstrable difference in the minds of women,… Read more »
So what does that mean? Physical readiness for sex may be related to a method of physical protection? Women don’t know how to read their own body signals? Arousal and desire are two different creatures in women? (and I’d say perhaps in men too, but who knows). Of course men can be aroused without having desire – every twelve year old boy shifting nervously in math class knows this. I was just (uncomfortably) reminded of this fact on my walk this morning, hoping my walking partner didn’t notice and was more focused on her dog. And if she did notice,… Read more »
Yes, I agree. I was focused on the female aspects. It’s a common idea that if a man has an erection he’s fully aroused, but that isn’t true.
Totally agree with what Julie and Nick are saying.
@J.G. – we are again venturing very far off topic from what this article is about, and these comments are already quite long. So again, feel free to e-mail me if you’d like to continue talking about social messages regarding fidelity. 🙂
@Julie, I think human sexuality is quite complex and society has harmed both genders in how they view in, the puritan views I don’t think have been helpful at all. The overdriven push FOR male sexuality and the overdriven push AGAINST female sexuality could lead to big problems for both in their sexuality. I wouldn’t be surprised if the slut-shaming, guilt, sin/dirty thoughts type mentality towards sex especially for women can leave them quite confused on their own sexuality. Maybe women are physically aroused but train themselves to take less note of it, or are actively trying to bury it?… Read more »
I believe the study Alex is referring to is the one in 2005 out of Northwestern University that purported to show the non-existence of bisexual men (a subsequent study exposed the selection bias in the first). In it they also showed that women showed a physical sexual response while reporting no arousal. You might also read the New York Times Magazine essay What Do Women Want? Another study (I can’t recall where this one was conducted, but I think it was a Canadian university) tested different study methods for self-reports of sexual activity. In it I believe they showed a… Read more »
“why women claim to have half the sexulal partners than men do”
Because our society places a premium on the chasteness of women? It’s commonly a mark of shame among women to have many sexual partners, no wonder they underreport.
Underreporting does not prove anything biologically inherent about being a human female, it just demonstrates different social expectations.
Unless you’re referring to the mixed signals. How is this “no agency whatsover”? Of course the women consciously try to flirt and display interest and move things along, but they also communicate mixed signals on a subconscious level without realizing it.
That would make it a mix of conscious and unconscious. I never made the extreme statement you’re reading.
It’s called “Social Acceptability Bias” and men do it too. Respondents answer questioned based on how they feel they will be judged.
On a study on number of sexual partners:
Women gave the highest numbers on an anonymous computer survey.
Slightly lower numbers with a female interviewer; and the lowest numbers with a male interviewer.
Inversely; men gave the lowest numbers on computer, slightly higher numbers with a female interviewer, and the highest numbers with a male interviewer.
The study wasn’t really about the number of sexual partners; but actually about how social expectations bias a person’s responses.
If you’re interested in “truth,” I suggest you keep looking.
bobbt
Roissy. AKA Chateux Heartiste. Go there for enlightenment if you can stand the darkness.
Good luck getting a straight answer on this one. I’ve been totally baffeled by this. I mean, is this how these women secretly wish their husbands / boyfriends would treat them?
It’s fantasy…just like porn is fantasy. On the one hand, there’s an excitement from the tension of a potentially dangerous situation, but on the other there is an element of safety knowing that it isn’t real. The moment anything like this enters the real world, the power and control games need to be negotiated and a deep trust has to exist between everyone involved. I might like reading about a woman being ravished by a relative stranger…but I would never want that to actually happen to me.
We’re always pushing the boundaries…because this is the nature of competition and novelty-seeking. Hard core is no longer hard core, it’s soft-core. Bondage/erotica is the new hard-core…until something new comes along to replace it…like asphyxiation and death.
I really think the erotica and bondage in men’s porn has crossed-over to female territory; similar to how cosmetics and beauty products used to be solely a women’s domain, but is no longer true. Women are very aware of what men like, and like to watch; bondage erotica porn sites must be extremely popular amongst men, for those sites to have such staying power. Women like to “please” men even though it could be in negative ways (demeaning)…likely due to the mass media messages women receive, telling us we’re sexual objectives — alive, solely to please men. What’s popular with… Read more »
Does women’s agency exist in your world?
My agency and world believes in moderation. My notion of extreme, may not be the same as yours apparently…ie. soft-core vs. hard-core etc. To each their own right? Whatever floats your boat!
I don’t have a lot of interest in porn. But I do recognize there are women out there who have not been mind-controlled by men into looking at porn.
I recognize that because stripping women of agency in order to make them fit some sort of ‘moral ideal’ is more toxic then allowing that women, as a group, have desires that do not fit into a PC agenda.
I think you missed her point. Your explanation for women’s behaviour is mass media conditioning. You disregard their responsibility for their own actions.
No I haven’t. You forget to take into account, that the influence of mass media is MASSIVE to our culture…often overriding people’s “agency” especially young people, or in this instance women. Mass media dictates what is “cool” or “hot”; marketing plays on your insecurities and supposedly “flaws” to sell you products/services to answer these “problems”. It creates needs where they may not have been before, or targets niche markets and grow them. And how many times do we buy stuff that we don’t actually need or pay more for brand names (everything is made in China anyways)?
Bondage/erotica used to be a niche market, appealing to a tiny segment of the population…but now it’s taken off and is huge; so huge that it’s showing up in women’s romantic novels. Some trends are fads, but if there is a demand/people’s “agency” driving its growth, then it’s no longer a fad but here to stay. Harlequin romance novels are now soft-core novels compared new bondage/erotica romantic novels, like 50 Shades of Grey. In writing this novel, and porn scenes of bondage/erotica, the author and her novel stands out from the competition and brings a new “novelty” to romance novels.… Read more »
Oh, please, Dominance and Submission themes to the ultimate extreme of this being rape, have always been part of women’s written porn. What was the title of that book from the early 80s again, where a 20th century woman somehow ends up in the past, and meats a brutal local men, that captures her, and kidnaps her, and all but if not outright rapes her and she falls in love with him. These things have never been niche, they’ve been around for decades and even centuries. The only difference now is that it might be a little more explicit, and… Read more »
“And how many times do we buy stuff that we don’t actually need or pay more for brand names.”
How many times when you do this, do you realize you are doing it, and yet do it anyway? Agency.
Yeah. ADVERTISING agency 😉
Michelle appears to have a different view of culture and society than most of us, wherein culture is more controlling and individual agency really results in no change. Which is somewhat true, as mass media is a form of enculturation, it does tell us what is valued or not in our society and how to behave according to social norms.
That being said, I don’t agree with that idea of society: while our ideas are colored by our enculturation and our experiences, we still have our own decisions to make. Society can guide, but it can’t control.
Just different theories.
Yes, and after reading Michelle’s post I’m left wondering if there are any actual people in charge of the media, or if it’s just a giant impersonal force. Surely someone somewhere makes a choice to use this photo instead of that photo. Surely someone somewhere makes a choice about whether to buy a product or not. This is one of the great myths of the last century, the belief in the power of conditioning through mass media. It’s actually extremely difficult, if not impossible, to brainwash someone, but that hasn’t stopped people from trying, and it hasn’t stopped people from… Read more »
Right well, typhon already touched on the agency thing. I’d like to touch on the idea that somehow bondage started out in porn (made for men) and is only now crossing over to erotica (made for women). This sort of ignores the fact that bondage has existed far longer than the modern porn industry; the term sadism is a reference to the late 1700s Marquis de Sade, after all. Now, I’m not sure whether the intended audience for Sade’s more libertine works were men or women, or both. But my point is that if you want to discuss the popularity… Read more »
“Society/mass media conditions females to seek male attention and to please men…sometimes to their detriment and not their best of interests.” Society does this to both genders, I’ve seen plenty of men and women attempt to please others to get a partner. Why do you think society pushes men to earn more, drive flashy cars, buy jewellery, gives for their partner?! How many times do you hear the old “the woman is always right” used as a joke, but funnily enough is telling men to basically shutup and accept the woman’s final say? I think society needs to lift it’s… Read more »
I hope not. I hope we do not become do disengaged with each other that the only way we can feel something with someone is thru death and destruction