Zek Evets wonders how women expect men to care about the gender equality movement, whenthey seem unwilling to care about men’s issues.
In the article, Boys And Men Must Be Included In The Conversation On Gender Equality in The Guardian last week, author Andrea Cornwell asserts:
“…it’s not about bringing men in by talking to them nicely and making sure they’re not put off: it’s about naming male privilege, and getting men engaged in holding other men to account.”
It’s about more than that. It’s about closing the cracks so named in the article. You say it’s not women’s job to bring men in and make sure we’re not “put off”. But how do you expect us to care if you don’t care about us? How do you expect to include us in the conversation if you arrive already decided, leaving only the means of our conversion as your intent.
This article is a White Elephant among an endless parade of misandric dismissal. But it stumbles. It fumbles. It contradicts itself in the same paragraph. And that’s okay. Because this is a start, and it’s damn necessary.
Zek, I applaud your efforts for a more even-handed approach to gender issues. But can I ask you something? I’d like you to read my “Bullied By Girls and Women: One Man’s Account”. It details my experiences as a survivor of serious bullying and hurt from both genders, but finding no support for what the girls and women did. Now, here’s my take: I’d love to have an even-handed approach. But Zek, as a survivor, it deppresses me so much to still live in a world where there’s no support or validation at all for what happened to me from… Read more »
Eagle,
I know that feel, bro. I’ve been through the wringer too, though not as much as you.
Any chance you can afford more therapy – like, say, weekly? Monthly seems way too little time to process all this shit to me. Also, does your shrink specialize in gender issues, and, I think importantly, is your shrink a male?
Just thinking out loud here. You have my support no matter what.
In answer to your question, Bob-o, yes my psychiatrist is male.
But he’s just a general one.
I wish there was someone out there who specialized in this sort of thing. Sadly, with the way the climate is, my hopes are slim. Very little want to address girls bullying boys or women hurting men in general in the mental health industry.
Which is a shame since I do want to see myself through this. Somehow.
I don’t know, I live in a medium-sized city in flyover country and it was pretty easy for me to find a guy who specializes in this. But YMMV. You might have to ask around or consult Dr. Google, or maybe your psychiatrist would be able to recommend someone.
Eagle, I just don’t know what the hell to do anymore, Zek. Someone suggested maybe doing a research project but I’m not a part of a college course or education system. There are times I get at the end of my rope but I keep carrying on anyway. Holding it all in, this hurt, because frankly, this world doesn’t want to support it. So Zek, what do I do now? Aside from seeing a psychiatrist which I do every month. I’m sorry, but I don’t have a good answer for you. I’m only 25 years old, and still working through… Read more »
Nice message from Cornwell up there: “It’s about forcing men to accept the blame for women’s problems, not listening to their side of the gender-inequality story.” Yeah, that’ll really get the guys lining up for public shaming, Andrea.
I’d love to see a gender-equality movement, but it’s pretty obvious that feminism isn’t it.
@Allen Ladd “As a white male, born and raised in the UK and living in the US for the past 16 years, I am very clear that I benefit in numerous ways from being male and white in these societies. Irrespective of my own personal attitudes and practices, I benefit from belonging to the gender that dominates the upper echelons of governmental and corporate institutions, that is expected to be in charge.” How exactly do you benefit from being male, remember in order for this to be true, ALL males must benefit , if they don’t then the benefit isn’t… Read more »
Read the Guardian article. After many decades of spinning a narrative of a world of universal male privilege extracted at the expense of women, feminists have had a hard time reconciling conflicting evidence that might deny this movement its ethos. When confronted with the plight of men, looks like the popular feminist response has been: 1. Celebrate the gender imbalance on multiple social indicators as evidence of womens’ advancement and refocus attention on areas where women remain underrepresented. 2. Reassure followers that men have done this to themselves because women, as an oppressed group, lack the power and therefore responsibility… Read more »
I’m glad I’m not the only one who has noticed this. I swear, if I see one more article that seems to believe the only thing wrong with men being un(der)employed and uneducated is that “successful women” can’t seem to find a rich husband, I think I might have to brain myself
But remember, 8ball: Men’s problems aren’t REAL problems until they start affecting women.
Right, I’d forgotten. Actually on a certain level i kind’ of like those “woe to the dateless successful woman” articles. They are unintentionaly hilarious, just for the sheer lack of introspection on the parts of the women. A recent one I read had a woman talk about how she lied about her job whenever she met a guy, and then gets dumped when the guys find out the truth. Well, no kidding. I wouldn’t want to date someone either if the first thing outof their mouth was a blatant lie either. It’s even better when the writer of the article… Read more »
” But too often, in my experience of working with men on gender and issues of violence and sexual health over the last 15 years, I have come across this attitude that we have to ‘sell’ gender equality to men, persuade them that it is in their interests, and that we risk turning men off if we talk explicitly about the violence that men do – that we have to make anti-sexist work with men non-threatening. But by doing so, we avoid having an honest conversation about the many ways in which well-meaning men continue to perpetuate sexist attitudes and… Read more »
As it is my statement that my friend and colleague Andrea Cornwall was citing in her Guardian piece, I want to provide a little more context for it, partly in response to some of the comments above. As a white male, born and raised in the UK and living in the US for the past 16 years, I am very clear that I benefit in numerous ways from being male and white in these societies. Irrespective of my own personal attitudes and practices, I benefit from belonging to the gender that dominates the upper echelons of governmental and corporate institutions,… Read more »
Alan, Thanks for commenting. I agree that by trying to “sell” gender to men by making it non-threatening it leaves important issues out of the conversation. Moreover, we should care about changing sexism, racism, classism etc., based on our own inherent goodness — but isn’t it all an act of privilege to even be capable of joining that kind of activism? How do poor men engage themselves effectively in combating misogyny, especially if their lives have been ruined by misandric/racist/classist oppressions that leave them deeply scarred? We shouldn’t have to persuade people to care about these issues, but unfortunately that’s… Read more »
Zek – I am a bit puzzled by your assertion that progress is being made in Canada with respect to male victims of domestic violence… could you explain where you are seeing that?
Rezam,
Specifically there has been more research on the subject:
http://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2008/statcan/85-224-X/85-224-XIE2008000.pdf
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quotidien/050714/dq050714a-eng.htm
And while resources are still slim, they exist in far greater numbers than in the US.
http://www.saveservices.org/2011/12/canada-abuse-advocate-readies-for-discrimination-hearing/
@Alan
You say:
“we risk turning men off if we talk explicitly about the violence that men do”
The reason for this is that you are advocating the wrong model “men perpetrator, women victims.” Several men are not able to reconcile this model with their own everyday reality. Try talking to women about the violence that women do and you would be publicly humiliated by feminists.
Alan, on behalf of dyslexic people, please for the love of god try using paragraphs next time.
” I benefit from belonging to the gender that dominates the upper echelons of governmental and corporate institutions, that is expected to be in charge”
How?
Well, because he belongs to the male gender, just like the males that he counseled as the past President of MOVE were dominating the upper echelons of governmental and corporate institutions, clearly… “As the former Board President of Men Overcoming Violence (MOVE) in San Francisco, I saw a men’s anti-violence organization with a 20-year history torn apart by the contradictions of doing violence prevention work in communities targeted by State violence at the same time as serving as the coerced counselling component of the State’s response to domestic violence and being dependent on the State’s financial support. ” Or were… Read more »
“I benefit from belonging to the gender that does not have to look at itself sexualized and objectified in newstands and online and does not have to deal with the daily verbal and physical harassment that comes with this sexualization, let alone the continuing epidemic of physical and sexual violence against women and girls.” Umm, you’re a part of the gender that has the highest risk of violence victimization overall, the gender that dies 3-6x more than women from violence. A gender which is routinely objectified for it’s utility, disposability (expectation to protect all others above yourself, soldiers, etc), isn’t… Read more »
“Start helping the men as well then, because if you can’t help me but expect me to help you then that’s a relationship where I am being used.” Yes! Used up like the disposable tools that most everyone deep down really feels that we are. At a fundamental level many people I encounter in daily life seem INCAPABLE of even seeing men as people outside of their uses. Until we change that (if we can) the kind of concern for men as people needed to bring us fully into society as people won’t happen. As individuals though we know we… Read more »
Alan, thankyou for the added clarity that you bring to understanding the context of the Guardian article. Your article “Anxious States of Masculinity” (2011) at ht tp://www.alangreig.net/text/anxious-states-of-masculinity/anxious-states/ “The masculine anxieties provoked by these ‘changes and difficulties’, however, extend beyond the ‘lives of men and boys’. Changes in the gender order as a result of challenges to the androcentric division of labour are not only undermining men’s masculine identities predicated on the subordination of women. They also threaten the patriarchal foundations of current arrangements of political and economic power. As Fraser explains, second-wave feminism understood the broader significance of the gender… Read more »
This is why nothing will change, why black males will continue to be treated like Trayvon Martin was.
@AllyF You say: “The article is a plea for development professionals to include the unique problems facing men and to address a genuine imbalance in the way development has been presented and delivered in recent years, which has been according to the model that if you solve women’s problems, you’ll solve poverty.” After reading and re-reading the opinion piece by Andrea Cornwall, I could not find a plea for development professionals to include the unique problems facing men. According to Cornwall, works that are inspired by an agenda for change that doesn’t leave boys and men out of the equation… Read more »
“After reading and re-reading the opinion piece by Andrea Cornwall, I could not find a plea for development professionals to include the unique problems facing men.” Try this “Few of today’s international development agencies would give boys the time of day. They’re not seen as part of the solution to development’s ills. When boys make an appearance in today’s development narratives, they’re cast as hazardous menace or hopeless loser. Not for them the lifting, ending and leading that’s become the script for girls. Boys are, after all, men-in-the-making, assumed to have access to – and be able to utilise –… Read more »
There is none as blind as those who will not see. Let me point out the blind spots that you have left in appraising the opinion piece by Andrea Cornwall. The author starts her piece by pretending to be sympathetic towards boys and men for being neglected in the development narrative. She writes: “Boys are, after all, men-in-the-making, assumed to have access to – and be able to utilize – all the patriarchal privilege that’s going.” She is assuming that boys automatically get some advantages over girls, which is a big lie. She goes on to write: “Cutting boys and… Read more »
got to go out now, so can’t do a line-by-line, but very briefly… The first few examples you quote are her parodying the standard gender framework for development. One line where I profoundly disagree with you is here, you quote her saying “mobilising men to stop violence against women, and challenging and changing men’s attitudes to intimate relationships and fatherhood.”and you reply What is there for men in these agenda of changes except serving women’s interests. What is there for men in improved intimate relationships and fatherhood? Are you frggin’ kidding me? Only the most important, life-enhancing, rewarding elements to… Read more »
” Improving the lot of one gender does not come at the expense of the other, quite the reverse.”
That is what has taken place for several decades now. It’s not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing; the evidence is clear per the data, especially amongst minority males. It absolutely has been zero-sum, much to the liking of many.
Cornwall writes about mobilising men to stop violence against women, and challenging and changing men’s attitudes to intimate relationships and fatherhood, but where does she talks about mobilizing women to stop violence against men or changing women’s attitude to intimate relationships. She assumes men are the problem which needs to be fixed. All the efforts and fixing are directed towards men for the benefit of women and this opinion piece is about so-called gender justice. She has just turned hypocrisy into a fine art.
“The first few examples you quote are her parodying the standard gender framework for development.”
It’s simply poor writing if parody can’t immediately be recognized as being so. I certainly don’t know how you could assume it’s parody.
Rapses, In many of those places you quoted, I believe she was being sarcastic and pointing out the ridiculousness of some of the assumptions people hold about men. And there are deadly ideas of masculinity, like us being success objects, or weapons, etc. All in all, I think you are being a little quick on the trigger and so you’re missing a lot of the nuanced commentary she’s engaging in. Yeah, she stumbles a bit, but mostly she’s on our side. For instance, your point about indoctrination is quite the opposite. She’s saying that by better educating boys we will… Read more »
Zek
You seem to be too trusting. All-in-all the opinion piece was about somehow involving the men and boys to get goodies for women at their cost.
I am a woman. I care about men. I have two sons. Am impressed with this site. I’ve learned so much, not realizing how men deal with “it.” PC is destroying our ability to communicate. “Groups” of people scare me. I have to believe it is our individual connections which make the difference. The media is so much a part of all forms of above. Good that this site challenges that.
There you have it. Women can solve the problems of women and men can solve the problems of men. Now both sides need to agree to not complain about the results of solutions of which they weren’t involved in.
PursuitAce,
I think working together would create better solutions than working apart, as tempting as it might be to throw our hands up and be done with each other. America can’t operate that way.
But isn’t it a nice fantasy to think about?
Bob-O,
Not for me. I’d miss my girlfriend, and my nieces, and also I’d miss having a diverse, stable society filled with everyone’s contributions.
They don’t care. Accusations of privilege are just a cop out to avoid the real issues affecting men.
Men would be fools to think that women have men’s interest in mind, they do not. Men, young men and boys should be protected at all costs from the women’s union feminists.
I feel that people who are capable of grouping people according to whatever criteria they find safe, are missing the point: finding people you can connect with is rare enough –why turn it into all sorts of “isms,” the foundation of war, whether personal, or on larger scale: it is all the same. Scapegoats. Women are angry at men. They should also be angry at women as well. Women don’t defend women who don’t believe as they do. It’s a huge circle of endless fragmentation, conceptualization, resulting in loneliness, isolation. All of this is to say: the human brain is… Read more »
OMG Bobbi! I just finally breathed when I got to your comment. Thank you for the sanity. Everyone should take note: “Women are angry at men. They should also be angry at women as well. Women don’t defend women who don’t believe as they do. It’s a huge cycle of endless fragmentation, conceptualization, resulting in loneliness, isolation… The human brain is divided. It projects its troubles on “others” as long as there are “others” one cannot possibly know theyself-no truth. Just division.” Creating a false zero-sum game out of gender politics gets us NOWHERE. We need to be marching forward,… Read more »
The opinion piece written by Andrea Cornwall is full of prejudices and she tries to distort the facts to fit her ideology. For example she writes: “It’s not as if boys are having a particularly easy time. Male privilege can become a burden when boys and men are unable to live up to the expectations associated with it.” She starts with admitting that boys are facing difficulties and then blames the male privilege as a burden. How can something which is, called privilege, become a burden. The thing she is mentioning is not any privilege but the traditional social role… Read more »
I see this the same way. Seriously I wish we could do a role reversal in society. Women had the duties and “priveleges” of men and men had those of women. I wonder how fast they’d come beggin to get their old role back. A privilege is never a burden, it can’t become a burden or it wouldn’t be a privelege. What kind of logic is that? They demand men to help them, but are unwilling to even recognize the problems of men as such. When men have problems those are still privileges. Well thank you, don’t they see how… Read more »
Beyogi,
I can’t tell you how many times I have seen the sentiment stated from feminists (on this sight and others) that women’s issues are EVERYBODY’S business, but men’s issues certainly aren’t HER business.
It’s a pretty sad ideology.
I hate what their attitude means for society. That kind of thinking means that one half of society has to care for another, but that one has and will do nothing to reward the attention. Those Feminists demand the rights of an adult and the duties of a child for themselves. Children grow up, but apparently that kind of Feminist never does. In the end they’ll only achieve the end of solidarity in society. I certainly don’t want to live in a minimal society that only guarantees we don’t slit each others throats. Hobbes might have thought that was enough,… Read more »
“Zek Evets wonders how women expect men to care about the gender equality movement, whenthey seem unwilling to care about men’s issues.”
Because gender equality issues are men’s issues…
I believe he means the gender equality movement that only takes into account female issues.
Gender equality issues are men’s issues, but they’re rarely phrased that way.
What a spectacular misreading of the linked article (which was excellent all in all) For starters, the quote you use is not from the author, it is from Alan Greig, a man, which is a rather significant detail. Plus the excerpted quote is only half a paragraph. You miss the context, which is: “So what can be done? One thing is clear: women and girls can’t be expected to take responsibility for this as well. Women’s rights activists are tired of being told to “engage”, “involve” or “bring men in”, as if it’s their job to persuade men to care… Read more »
Being shamed for being men is a men’s issue.
AllyF, Am I misreading the article, or are you misreading me? Your comment is full of projection about issues I never made an opinion on in this post, nor did I ever call the article misandrist. White Elephant is a literary term from Ernest Hemingway to refer to something that is an exception to a rule; the article is an exception to the rule of misandric dismissal for the idea of “men’s issues”. Your condemnation of me is hard to take seriously when you cannot even present my argument correctly. If you’re genuinely concerned about male issues, male-gender specific problems,… Read more »
OK, for starters let me apologise to Julie for tone, which I don’t think breaches GMP guidelines although I’ll accept it gets pretty close. Secondly, the phrase White Elephant doesn’t mean what you say. It’s a well-known term, long predating Hemingway, that means an apparent gift which ends up destroying the recipient (look it up). If you didn’t mean to use the term in that way, then I accept that there may have been a misunderstanding, but “a White Elephant among an endless parade of misandric dismissal” means something much worse than you perhaps intended. That’s not a phrase that… Read more »
AllyF, I’m sorry, but why are you apologizing to Julie instead of the person you’re attacking??? That you’re arguing my semantics now is rather depressing, especially since nobody else had any problems understanding my meaning. White elephant is a legitimate term for something rare, and its contemporary American meaning is pretty standard. The article is an exception, a rarity among an endless parade of misandric dismissal, that’s what I said and what I believe. I’m sorry that you’re so defensive and unwilling to admit your mistake, but there it is none the less. Also, I do realize the part I… Read more »
I don’t want to get bogged down in semantics, but if you use a phrase which means something radically different to your intention, you can’t really complain if people misunderstand your intent. If you want to know ‘American usage’ you might want to try Wikipedia: “The term derives from the story that the kings of Siam (now Thailand) were accustomed to make a present of one of these animals to courtiers who had rendered themselves obnoxious, in order to ruin the recipient by the cost of its maintenance. In modern usage, it is an object, scheme, business venture, facility, etc.,… Read more »
AllyF, Oh, and I’m a man by the way. Sorry, I just guessed by your name to be a woman. No projection, but my bad. I don’t want to get bogged down in semantics, but Says the person getting bogged down in semantics… But whatever. Even accepting your intended meaning, your argument here still seems incredibly wrong-headed. Thanks for accepting that I meant what I said and said what I meant. But then why not make a legitimate argument against that instead of have a snark explosion, a snarkplosion? The question I posed is important for a lot of people,… Read more »
Thanks for accepting that I meant what I said and said what I meant. Hahaha, no, I’m actually accepting that you didn’t mean what you actually said, and that you said what you didn’t actually mean, but whatever, moving swiftly on. The question I posed is important for a lot of people, and your attempts to dismiss it as “wrong-headed” is not going to suddenly change people’s minds that they need a better reason to care than the ones they’ve been given. Which question? You mean this one / these ones? how do you expect us to care if you… Read more »
AllyF, You picked out one sentence from a long article, quoted it out of context, then wrote this blog on GMP about how women supposedly don’t care about men’s issues (to paraphrase both your article and the standfirst), then reacted to your own strawman argument by saying ‘how do you expect us to care if you don’t care about us?” I haven’t said or done anything like that at all. You have yet to quote me saying any of the ten million things you’ve stated in your comments that I supposedly said. I’ve already reiterated — numerous times — that… Read more »
zek, did you or did you not write these words? “how do you expect us to care if you don’t care about us? How do you expect to include us in the conversation if you arrive already decided, leaving only the means of our conversion as your intent.” If you want to boil al my comments down to a single question, it is this: When you say “how do you expect us to care…” who are you talking about? Who is the ‘you’? Because from the standfirst to the article we’re meant to believe you’re talking to or about women… Read more »
“When you say “how do you expect us to care…” who are you talking about? ”
A little reading comprehension suggests that he means the men that the feminist movement can’t seem to draw in with shame tactics. Read the post again and stop wasting everyone’s time.
Ally, we strive for civil dialogue here. If you have comments or questions, please do ask and offer but we have a commenting policy and ask that all commenters read it.
Where did he call the article misandric??
ally I have read the piece in the Guardian, and I think you are being unfair. It is not ’embarrassing’ to make an honest response on a website , about men, to a newspaper article, about men. I think the Guardian piece makes some good points. But, as is ALWAYS the case in the Guardian when it comes to gender issues, it frames its argument in a feminist context. So ‘male privilege’ becomes an issue. I write a lot about men and masculinity, and I never feel the need to refer to male privilege, except to critique that concept. In… Read more »
Oh there you go, QRG, being the voice of diplomacy and reasonableness again 😉 As you know, I’m no fan of the phrase ‘male privilege’ particularly when used of the developed world (I have less of an issue with it if we’re talking about sub-Saharan Africa, or wherever). I don’t think the article makes a feminist argument. What it does is present a non- (traditionally) feminist argument, but does so by using the language of feminism, possibly on the assumption that Guardian readers wil take it on board better that way, who knows. But anyway, Zek’s article is not a… Read more »
““So what can be done? One thing is clear: women and girls can’t be expected to take responsibility for this as well. Women’s rights activists are tired of being told to “engage”, “involve” or “bring men in”, as if it’s their job to persuade men to care about issues that ought to be their concern.” Do you have a problem with that? I don’t. Are men just going to sit about whining and wait for women to sort everything out? ” This is exactly the problem he’s talking about: Gender issues aren’t something which are men’s responsibility to fix, or… Read more »
it’s hard to talk to someone when you know they will try to discredit anything you say, for whatever reason they may have, male or female. caring and respect need to come from both sides or we as a race will never make progress
YES!! THIS!!!
This is such a complicated issue. It makes me want to hit my head against a wall repeatedly. There are SO many myths on each side to break down, and so much language to translate. We have to care about each other first and foremost. We have to find a way to stop looking at men and women as completely foreign species to each other, no matter if it feels that way, no matter if systems have reinforced that, narratives created to second those systems. We have to quit (or try to quit) hurling words at each other “Misandric!” “Misogynist!”… Read more »
Julie,
We need translators, bridge builders, medics, and new storytellers.
Indeed! Your comment nails it, but that sentence is the key, because there’s SO MUCH mistrust, and so much mythology built into us by our experiences and what we’ve been told. I think you should build on that idea for another article =)
It feels like I’ll be building on that for another whole career 😉 But I think you are right. This goes not only for gender, but race, sexual orientation and other issues that seem to have us all divided. Gender is a big one though. It’s impactful as all get out and even when it seems hopeless, I have to count on hope. And people seeking connections at all costs even if it’s hard work.
I think gender is such a big one because there isn’t a clearly divided line between a privileged group and an unprivileged group. Whereas with race there is a much clearer white privilege, and with sexual orientation there is a much clearer hetero privilege….with gender both men and women experience privilege in different situations. But we still end up using the language and the structure of a social movement that is about one unprivileged and one privileged group. So it ends up turning into the “Oppression Olympics” and so on. (As a side note – there is a very clear… Read more »
Exactly, and theres that awkward thing that makes someone arguing that female privilege exists look like someone arguing that gay or black privilege exists.
That’s what I try to do, translate between feminists n mra’s at times. Simply changing words from pure anger to annoyed but calm makes a huge difference.
Sad to say, that isn’t going to happen and cannot happen because, well, people are the way they are for personal, not philosophical reasons. I am quite sure that 99.9% of all women who call themselves feminists have been raped or otherwise abused by a man. Men who call themselves MRAs, I notice, tend to have been emotionally blasted by an ex or the court system as directed by an ex. Bottom line is that I don’t believe people don’t hate the other gender for no reason. Due to past actions and lessons learned, I will distrust women until my… Read more »
Sigh. That last sentence should read “That doesn’t mean that I can’t be aware of my own prejudices or talk about philosophy, but I am going to be hard as hell to convince of anything that goes against what *I* personally experienced.”
This makes me sad for you, Bob-O. And frankly, I think that’s hate-speech. You will mistrust ALL women? Replace “women” with any other group (black people, Jewish people, disabled people, homosexuals, even men…) Imagine if I said I’d mistrust all men?! Of course I would NEVER say that in a billion years, because despite being a feminist, I don’t mistrust men. I love men. My best friends, my two writing partners are men (both on here, Jamie Reidy and Eli Kaplan)… But to me, generalizing about half the population — but more importantly fearing half the population — is only… Read more »
I agree with Joanna, Bob-O. It’s a lonely and hateful life to live fearing all women, especially since there are so many amazing women in the world that can contribute to our lives in deeply profound ways. I certainly wouldn’t be the man I am today without the women in my life, just as much as the men in my life. Plus, don’t you want love someday? Don’t you want companionship? I mean, if you’re attracted to women, that is. Seriously, try to open up and let go of your fear, your hate, and your bad experiences so you can… Read more »
Joanna, I think that warrants another read: He’s arguing that that kind of mistrust comes from abuse (which he has experienced) but that it may misplaced and that he recognises this. All feelings are valid and deserve recognition, pretending that you don’t mistrust a group of people doesn’t make it true. Shouldn’t he be given credit for recognising his own prejudice?
I’m not recommending kumbaya. I’m recommending hard ass work. You have a good point that people who are wounded often can decide the cause of their wound is global not just personal. Thus I advocated therapy to do that healing. If people aren’t healthy then it’s up to them to get healthy and learn to differentiate. More soon.
I don’t think people can just sit around and say, “Oh, we are peaceful.” Peace isn’t actually passivity. Peace is an active work, and contains conflict. Peace also contains and is made up of respect, willingness to listen and compassion. I think people are wounded yes. Lots of us are. And lots of us who have had issues (violence, divorce, betrayal, death) in our lives are still friends with men, or women, or different races. Some aren’t at that place yet. But to totalize an experience “all men are bad because my father left us” or “all women are bad… Read more »
Julie, But to totalize an experience “all men are bad because my father left us” or “all women are bad because my wife took the kids” is simplistic to the system and disrespectful to the person actually projecting his or her pain outward. I think it also includes a lot of hearsay, of confirmation bias in our observations that help us/make us see the metanarratives that allow the world to make sense to us. (Sometimes it’s all so very post-modern, haha.) But pragmatically what we can do is come to some sort of middle-ground and say, “okay, this is something… Read more »
Pragmatically, you acknowledge there are two sides: the personal and the philosophical. Philosophically, people can agree. Do I think women deserve equal pay for equal work? Certainly. Do I believe mothers and fathers should have equal standing in the court system? Sure. Do I think the assumption of gender inequality leads to privilege and victimization? O mais oui. But personally, no way. I want nothing to do with people who look at me walk down the street and assume I’m some kind of filthy rapist. I want no part of a partner who calls me a rapist because she read… Read more »
It may not be my job to reach them. It may be their own job to do the work on their own (therapy, writing, whatever it is) that allows them to develop a sense of trust in themselves and/or the world. I’m not so much even talking about philosophy as much as I’m talking about systems that exist. They exist because people are in them building them, reinforcing them etc. And some of them have personal triggers driving what they do when and how. It’s not even my job to reach you. You are in charge of your own life… Read more »
I’m just answering your question, Julie. The anger that people feel due to their own life experiences is why you aren’t going to reach certain people, and you may just have to be OK with that. You aren’t going to be able to get such people to even talk with you, and this is why. And if you try and fail, this is why.
You have to pick your battles. If I went into a radfem community and tried to convince them that all men weren’t horrible people, it just wouldn’t work, and I’d have done nothing but frustrate myself.
I realize that. I’m not asking you to change for me and I can accept where you (or someone) is, while still feeling empathy and sadness about it. I’m pondering a bigger plan altogether, a bigger thought about how to work, long term, for change.
Bob-o, But personally, no way. I want nothing to do with people who look at me walk down the street and assume I’m some kind of filthy rapist. And who does that to you? Are they strangers, or people you know? I want no part of a partner who calls me a rapist because she read in some damn book that higher-sexed partners were abusers. And who tells you these obviously untrue things? What partners have you had who were so cruel? And pragmatically, philosophy is no match for what I’ve been through personally. I can’t imagine what you’ve been… Read more »
Zek, I can’t figure out if you are asking me these questions rhetorically or not. My ex-wife and her (female) therapist accused me of being a rapist because I was having trouble being in a sexless marriage while she was processing her childhood abuse. And by the way, she never did end up wanting to have sex with me. It was as much my fault for being an idiot and staying with her after she called me a rapist as it was her fault for accusing me of something so painful and untrue. Obviously this experience has led to some… Read more »
Bob-O, I was asking sincerely, and I’m sorry to hear what happened to you, especially because it is precisely the kind of thing that the MRM is about ending. It takes a lot of courage to admit your prejudices, and even more to talk about them online like this. I guess I just want to encourage you to open up and start trusting women again, though I realize that may be too much at this time, or ever. Still, it’s always important to think about yourself as a survivor — instead of a victim — which implies you live your… Read more »
Well Joanna gets it, and a few others. Hopefully more will wakeup and realize why there is hesitation on trust when people ask for help without returning the favour.
Archy,
I think a lot of people see these issues occurring, but they don’t make the connection as to what causes them, or agree on what solutions should be undertaken. Hopefully articles like these do help promulgate the message though, and then the conversation can become less about “well, why is that??” to, “so what are we going to do about it?”.
Agreed.