Just kidding, Isaac. You’re awesome.
But how is any guy supposed to top this guy Isaac’s proposal to his girlfriend via the awesomest lip-dub ever??
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[...] I saw the video of Isaac’s lib-dub proposal to Amy, all I could do was groan. It is not that Isaac has not raised the bar. He has. It is instead that [...]
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[...] From witnessing the birth of their children to signing divorce papers all of my friends have let the water-works flow. I sobbed incessantly in public when I was informed about my younger brother’s death. I have cried on the NYC subway and in the lobby of Columbia University’s counseling service’s office. I even cried when I saw the recent lip-dub proposal video. [...]
Good question! Love it! So much!
Wow. Amazing coordination. But, what if she had said no? Highly public proposals are risky. Glad it worked out after all of that.
Totally agree Eric! Please lovely men: keep marriage proposals simple, honest, private and allow room for a “not yet” and even “no”. unless you are super sure your girlfriend will sway yes… Don’t force an obligation to say it just to save face.
Or, replace the whole proposal process with a series of adult conversations about what you both want out of life, values, visions, passions, morals, ethics, children, etc, etc. etc. and whether your plans include marriage or not. And how you feel about each other. Over time, whether you want to marry each other should be clear, making a proposal unnecessary. Or at best a forgone conclusion formality.
I suspect these two probably did the conversations AND the proposal.
One would think so. Similarly, one would have suspected that of the many highly public, recorded proposals on youtube and where the answer has been no. Evidently, that was not an accurate suspicion.
However, if all those conversations had taken place, there is no reason to make a formal proposal. I would think that the anti-gender-role patrol here would eschew the tradition of men proposing to women, especially the getting down on one knee tradition.
Yeah, this is a really big issue with elaborate proposals like this. If you’re reasonably sure she’ll say yes, fine, but otherwise you’re creating a really awkward situation for her.
Really?? Guys!!! This is awesome! In today’s world seeing a group of sooo many happy people doing something which is ONLY positive for a full five minutes? The last time I experienced that I was on Percocet! Lighten up.
Yeah, this rubs me the wrong way. It would be cool if we outgrew the whole proposal thing.
As well, the idea that this “ruins it for other guys” plays up the idea that love is a competition.
“As well, the idea that this “ruins it for other guys” plays up the idea that love is a competition.” Agreed, and that is why site liek ‘the Nest’ are so popular.
How in the world does one equate marriage proposals to something that needs to be “out grown”? That’s like me saying that I wish men would “out grow” oral sex. And why all the negativity? I’m glad the man in the video that orgainized this did something special and unique for his future bride. His effort in making a warm, fun, and unique proposal for just her is really something special. We need more of that kind of kindess in the world. I think it’s nothing but goodness when a man or woman does something kind and special for their partner. And I understand wanting your proposal to be private if you are a private person but not everyone rolls the same way. Clearly it was the right kind of proposal for the Bride and Groom-to-be.
“How in the world does one equate marriage proposals to something that needs to be “out grown”? ”
Because it’s a bit weird to have one partner beg the other to marry them, and to have this activity divide strictly along gender lines.
When did “asking” turn into “beggging”? I’m disturbed that the idea of someone asking another person to marry them is automatically equated with “begging” to begin with. There are lots of things I have asked former boyfriends. Things that I wanted, things that they wanted . Does that mean everytime I asked something I was begging? There are many times when boyfriends have asked me for something. Does that mean they were begging?
It seems to me that some people believe women are not allowed to have anything special or sincere done for them. Such as something completely nice in this man doing something special for his woman. It appeared to be a proposal that suited them both. It might not be for everyone and that’s perfectly fine but that I don’t understand the desire to find something negative here. I do not see this man as “begging” for her to marry him. I see him as going above and beyond to make something special for someone he loves. And that is what love and relationships are sometimes about. Doing things above and beyond to give something special to someone else. I know I’ve done that for men in past relationships and I know I’ve had it done for me. And I’m saddended that such a nice gesture is trying to be guilted into female/male power games.
And to be honest, women get so little romance now-a-days. It’s like anything specially done for a woman is being seen as automatically “evil”. I don’t get it. I really don’t. You are suppose to want to do special things for your partner.
What else would call getting down on one knee with a diamond ring? We’re not trying to guilt anyone, just point out that with many other gender roles being challenged, it’s frustrating to see this one being reinforced and taken to the next level
“And to be honest, women get so little romance now-a-days.”
And men almost never get romance.
My sister’s husband bought her an engagement ring that cost some outrageous amount of money, and he bought himself one that also cost a lot of cash (though not nearly as much as hers). He arranged the whole proposal with this romantic getaway, and my sister had no idea he was going to propose until he did. Traditionalist that he is, he asked my father for permission first, even…I mean if my father had said ‘no’ I’m not sure what he would have done, but he made the gesture.
Now if it were me, all of that would piss me the heck off. I’m not interested in some expensive ring or some huge gesture. And I am most certainly not into the idea of my potential spouse asking my parents ‘permission’ first. But that’s why I’m also not interested in dating someone who wants all of those things. See what I’m getting at?
On the grand, social level I agree that we’ve got a very gendered view of marriage proposals and weddings. And I’m totally more than willing to discuss that. When it comes to the individual and personal level, though, then I’m more of the opinion that people do what works for them. A marriage proposal is a wicked personal experience. While you can view it through a larger cultural lens, I think that it’s also important not to apply those larger cultural narratives onto specific examples (like this video)…because we don’t know the first thing about this guy and his relationship. Maybe this was his dream way to propose to a woman, and then he found a woman who he knew would appreciate it. We don’t know.
Fair enough about this fitting the individual’s desire, but the way this was presented (“ruin for the rest of us”) is rather prescriptive.
True…though I’d say that it’s more that this little blog post is just failing to challenge the prescriptive nature of the way we’ve gendered marriage proposals. It didn’t write the prescription, though yeah it did fail to challenge it. Unfortunately I think it was meant to be a bit humorous, and instead just sort of fed into the problem.
So yeah, it’s fair to critique it, but I also think it’s important to keep that critique in perspective.
“When it comes to the individual and personal level, though, then I’m more of the opinion that people do what works for them.”
Agreed. 100%. Leave people be in their personal lives. Butt out. Would you please, please tell the anti-gender-role brigade that. They don’t get that simple but important concept. They are so anxious to tell people what they believe should work for them rather than let “people [themselves] do what works for them.”
For some reason, they think it’s their job to tell people how to live their personal lives, expect where men are begging and/or buying, such as in buying diamond rings and begging to marry. THEN, it’s personal.
But, people’s personal lives are ALL personal. Whether the woman’s career is held on equal footing with the man’s? Whether the man changes the same number of diapers and takes off work as often with sick kids are individual, personal choices. Whether the woman takes the man’s last name and calls herself Mrs. Eric M. vs Ms. Nina M. is a personal level choice. Whether the wife does more of the in-home domestic chores or not is truly a personal level choice. Whether the wife’s career is the determined to be secondary after children arrive is a personal level choice. Whether the husband is considered the “head of household” is a personal level choice.
All of those are person choices and decisions. But, they constantly attack those “personal level” choices. Why don’t they attack the proposal and engagement ring tradition personal level choices with equal zeal and regularity?
What Peter said. It’s difficult to have an equal partnership if one party has to buy an expensive ring and create an elaborate show to “win” the other person. The very idea that women are a “prize” is insulting.
Yeah, it’s not possible for it to be an equal partnership under these conditions, which is clear evidence that those who claim to be for equal partnerships but endorse or don’t at least reject these practices really aren’t trying to achieve true equality at all.
Monkey said: “What else would call getting down on one knee with a diamond ring? We’re not trying to guilt anyone, just point out that with many other gender roles being challenged, it’s frustrating to see this one being reinforced and taken to the next level.
I’d call it “traditional”.
Should I complain next time a boyfriend wants me ot get on my knees to orally service him? I have no problem getting on my knees for someone I love. I LOVE giving them that kind of pleasure. And a lot of men seem to really enjoy it when you get on your knees for them. Should I cry about how rarely men have cooked meals for me but how often I’ve cooked for them? Should I feel disgruntled that this is something I’ve done more for men then they have for me? I don’t. I love being able to do something special for the person I love. Something I know, they would enjoy. Because that’s what relationships are about.
And yes, it appears that there is some guilting going on. Guilting for being someone that may enjoy this and guilting for someone that may do this. Otherwise, you would have just said, “Oh that’s nice for them. It’s not something I would be interested in doing but I’m glad that it’s what was good for them.
Erin said: “And to be honest, women get so little romance now-a-days.”
Monkey said: “And men almost never get romance.”
I think men get “romanced” differently. Stereotypically, men don’t really want flowers and chocolates or whatever. A woman may not either. But usually women are more impressed with some flowers then a man is. That is of course, just one example of a way of being romanced. I don’t really like the “tit for tat” argument. I don’t think it does anything to help either gender when we fail to recongnize how the genders can be wonderfully different.
As you said, you do those things because you enjoy them, and some women don’t, and would (rightfully) resent the societal pressure to do those things. I seriously doubt that a video of a woman cooking an elaborate meal for her partner would pass without comment on this site or a site geared toward women (let alone the… other thing)
A big part of GMP is challenging and questioning tradition. We don’t defend dowries, women taking their husband’s name or not working outside the home on the basis of tradition, why should we defend this?
As well, considering that we are undergoing a shift in breadwinner status, this is not a good time to stick needlessly with tradition. Suppose isaac’s fiancée made significantly more than him. In fact, in cases where female celebrities have married men who make substantially less than them, there are jokes about him having to buy the ring “with his allowance.”
I’d say we would defend someone’s right to take his or her husband’s name, or vise versa. We’d be against someone enforcing that tradition, just as we’d be against someone enforcing this tradition.
Whatever you choose to do, if you’re conscious about it and not hurting anybody, we’re all for it.
That’s not the message I get from “Our Favorite Blog”, RoleReboot.
Part of their mission statement: “We are forward-thinking, creative, thoughtful men and women dissatisfied with the limitations of deeply-embedded traditional gender roles.”
Eric, if you actually GO to R/R and read, you’ll see a whole section on their site about how and why different people chose to change their names or not.
Just because you’re dissatisfied with the limitations of tradition doesn’t mean you’re against tradition. They mean different things.
Dear Joanna,
I have BEEN TO RR. Taken together, their message is that they personally ARE against traditional gender roles; meaning that breaking free from them is a better way to live. That’s the whole idea.
For instance, they say, “We’re not the Cleavers or Ozzie and Harriet (nor do we want to be!).” Why not? Thought they were “all for” the Cleavers.
Whether you say they (you all) are against traditional gender roles, dissatisfied, or some other term, clearly they (you all) are not “all for it”, as you stated. Except, apparently, when it involves the tradition of men buying diamonds and begging on their knees women for their hand in marriage, as illustrated here.
Well, my personal take is that the whole thing is a little antiquated. I respect this guy’s dedication and imagination, but I bristled at the idea of “raising the bar.” the whole idea of performing romance as a competition is what runs me the wrong way.
Monkey, if you do not want to get on your knees to ask for someone’s hand in marraige, that’s fine. No one is arguing with your right there. If a woman doesn’t want to get on her knees to orally service her partner because she thinks it’s belittling, then that’s her choice too.
However, a lot of people do not think getting on their knees to perform a kind of service for someone they love is belitting. They consider it an act of love. There is no indiciation in this flim clip that this man did anything against his will. Which is why the complaining about it is simply strange to me. I get you saying, “well, if it was me, I wouldn’t do it that way.” I don’t get the outrage over a man getting on his knees to ask for a woman’s hand in marriage though since that man is a fully functioning adult that gets to decide for himself how he wants to ask for her hand in marriage. Or are you saying that this man isn’t intelligent enough to know what he may want and if he would only listen to your side of it he would see how demeaning and wrong it was for him to do what he did?
You’re quire missing the point. It’s not that Isaac is wrong for doing it; it’s that it’s annoying that headlines like “ruining it for other guys” are essentially saying that guys *must* do over the top proposals (or, indeed, be the one to propose at all) and that anything less is somehow “unromantic.”
No, I am not missing the point at all. You said and I qoute, “Yeah, this rubs me the wrong way. It would be cool if we outgrew the whole proposal thing. As well, the idea that this “ruins it for other guys” plays up the idea that love is a competition.”
The title of the article was not your only point of contention about the entire thing to begin with. It wasn’t even your first point of contention. You talked more about getting down on your knees for someone then about the title of the actual article. Have you ever had a woman get on her knees for you? Would you like one to? It’s a pretty common thing to do with a woman is giving oral sex to a man.
No where in the title of this piece did I think it was saying men must do over the top proposals. There are many women who wouldn’t even prefer that. Perhaps the girl in this video had always said herself that she didn’t need her man to do anything over the top for her. But he did. Because he loves her. Not because he was humilating himself for her. It was an act of love. Not an act of humilation.
“rubs me the wrong way” means just what it says. “it would be cool if” also means just what it says. We may not have to completely give up tradition, but it’s healthy to question it.
As well I’m not sure how else to take “ruins for the rest of us.”
But the whole process -going down on one knee, the ring- is part of a “tradition” that we have changed over time. We no longer expect women to have dowries, take their husbands’ name, etc. We should st the very least question this.
“We no longer expect women to have dowries, take their husbands’ name, etc. We should st the very least question this.”
I know I do. If she’s not willing to follow the gender-role tradition of accepting my name, I’m definitely not following the gender-role tradition of dropping $5,000 or $10,000 on an engagement ring or getting down on one knee.
Monkey, I’m not arguing with your right to choose whatever kind of marriage or engagement you desire. I just don’t understand looking for something negative in this video. I understand you saying, “that’s not for me.” I don’t understand the Men’s Right Movement-like uproar though about a man doing something for someone he obviously loves. Do you look down on the man in the video? I certainly don’t.
I personally like some traditions and of course, I understand that traditions and life styles change and new traditions come into play that work better for a more modern society. I just don’t see anything wrong or bad in a man that tradtionally asks his partner to marry him by getting on his knee.
And yes, I undestand that not all women take their husband’s names. However, I would bet that a larger percentage of women today still take their partners name then not.
I’m not a men’s rights activist. I don’t look down on Isaac, but I don’t feel the need to celebrate him or to look up to him as an exemplar of how to do a proposal “right.” I don’t want to pedestalize a potential spouse. If I choose to marry it will be with an equal. And as someone not given to grand public gestures (I agree that this is as much for his own ego as to make her feel special) I resent the pressure that comes from people celebrating this as “raising the bar.”
In terms of the way sexism and patriarchal attitudes (the reason I would say that mine is not an MRA position is that I don’t blame feminism) hurt men this is among the most minor. If he enjoyed doing this and she enjoyed having this, great! But I’m I’m favour of questioning all traditions when it comes to courtship, and I feel I have the right to say that.
So, I”m going to reframe the “on the knee” thing just a bit. When two people greet in this country (US) we offer each other our hands in greeting. A handshake. Here is the wiki on the origin of such a thing, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handshake, mostly so we could show we didn’t have any weapons, are approaching with good will etc. There are a number of ways of showing we don’t have weapons, like opening up the coat or raising the arms in the air or other things, but this one has stuck. In fact we have all kinds of cultural symbolism around it (firm grip, two handed, pat on the back) that has nothing to do with the original form.
So too with many physical traditions. Kneeling seems to have stemmed from the Knight days (http://www.hudsonvalleyweddings.com/guide/customs.htm) where a Knight would wait on a knee in favor from his Lady.
So it’s stuck around and is generally born from a sexist time (as have many outmoded Chivalry focused wedding traditions like “giving a bride away” what does she not have a choice? She used to maybe not have so much choice etc). I bet most people don’t really even think about it or thinking of it as a “humiliation” thing or begging, but I can read that into it. If I try hard.
So, while we don’t need to actually shake hands anymore to prove we don’t have weapons (I mean really? Who brings weapons to a business meeting etc) its’ an old old gesture that we use without much thought.
And it’s ok to examine things and through them out, but there isn’t always malice in NOT examining things.
As for me, we got engaged standing up facing each other. And that’s just fine too.
“I bet most people don’t really even think about it or thinking of it as a “humiliation” thing or begging, but I can read that into it.”
Funny how the bride being given away is a terribly sexist and outmoded tradition, but the man getting down on his knees (which what commoners did begging/bowing before royalty) is something that doesn’t need to be examined to closely.
“I’d call it “traditional”.
Erin, your views make sense, assuming you are not opposed to other gender-role traditions. My issue is with those who (apparently falsely) claim to be against prescribed, traditional gender-roles but who endorse and support these traditional gender-roles. Turns out that they really aren’t against gender-roles after-all; turns out that they are against men.
This proposal totally embarrasses me to watch it. It’s really sweet, but I would never want anything like that. I don’t want a ring, I want to mutually propose to each other (why should I be the only one that gets affirmed or the one on whom the choice depends?) , and I hope it’s private. Sometimes, it certainly seems like I’m one of the few females who thinks such things.
I really appreciate the recent GMP posts highlighting over the top proposals, whether engagement rings are necessary, and simple weddings. Flash and sparkle are great and often well-intentioned, but they’re not what’s important to make a lifetime commitment work.
ick. why get married in the first place? men and women don’t know how to treat each other, everyone is so selfish and unloving, and try to justify crappy behavior with their “biology” or their “wants” or “finding themselves” crap.
marriage is a defunct institution. just don’t, people.
Please, people–relax and enjoy a wonderful moment in these people’s lives. What a gift to give someone–friends and family working together to give this woman an amazing proposal. You are beating it to death with your agendas !
Fine. But just don’t make it a matter of “raising the bar.” A heartfelt proposal at a quiet dinner (or even a shower) can be jsut as romantic.
As well, there’s nothing wrong with questioning – just questioning – tradition.