A Reader Responds to Chris Brown Post

Angry faces. Yelling voices. Demands. Concessions. Tearful begging. Apologies. Right hook to chin. Falling down as blood spilled from my mouth and flooded my chin. Running for my car to lock myself inside. Inserting the key and churning dust as he stood in my way. I gunned the engine, desperate to escape as he glared at me. I sped toward him, swerving to avoid him as he jumped out of the way but landed final blows on my window as I fled toward a payphone to call for help.

Less than 10 minutes later, I sat in the back of a police cruiser, barely able to move my bloodied jaw as I told the officer my side of the story. Instead of feeling empowered for doing what I should have done –fled and called for help– I felt like the perpetrator. The officer asked what instigated the fight, if I had done or said anything to set him off. The officer sighed deeply and took my report. The state then prosecuted him for me, pressing charges on my behalf.

The abuse did not stop there, however. He came to my home with friends to vandalize my car in the middle of the night. Do you have any idea how frightening it is to see figures draped in black beating on your car in the middle of the night out in the deep dark country?

Three years ago, Chris Brown brutally attacked Rihanna as they rode through the night in his vehicle after an argument about a lengthy text message from a woman with whom he had previously had a sexual relationship. He nearly killed her as she attempted to defend herself with her body and various attempts to call for help with the cell phones in the vehicle. He turned himself in and did not fight the charges. Chris Brown accepted his sentence and is paying the court appointed penance for his actions that night three years ago. Rihanna has issued public statements in which she forgives him, wishing him well in his career and in life.

Yet as a society, we have ascribed a new celebrity role to Chris Brown. He is our new poster boy for men who abuse. Remember Mike Tyson? David Justice? Ike Turner? For awhile, the title belonged to them as well. Why do we do this? How long must he wear the label of “woman-beater” before we too, as Rihanna has, forgive his past sins? What will motivate us to do so? Anything? Why are we more forgiving of women who have harmed men?

Lisa Lopes burned Andre Rison’s mansion to the ground yet when she passed away, she was celebrated as a beloved member of society. Spin Magazine points out that Miranda Lambert directs Chris Brown, via Twitter, to listen to her song “Gunpowder and Lead” and be put back in his place. “Gunpowder and Lead” is a song about an abused woman who sits at home and awaits the return of her abusive partner with a loaded shotgun. Why do we hold men to a higher standard? Violence or abuse is never acceptable within the confines of a relationship, regardless of the gender of the source and yet as a society, we are more forgiving of women who perpetrate it than of men.

As we wait for him to “earn” our forgiveness, we must ask ourselves why he has to do so. By forgiving someone of their past transgressions, are we not removing the power of their actions from our lives? At this point, is there anything Chris Brown can do which will not be viewed as a pathetic publicity stunt to improve his image and sell records?

Then there are the women who tweeted on Sunday night during the Grammys about how they would “let him beat me allllll night long.”Should the Grammy’s or Chris Brown be held responsible for their tweets as this petition at Change.org implies? Or is it more of a reflection on our failure as a society to educate both men and women of the dangers in an abusive relationship? Have our desires for money and fame finally overridden our desire for a normal, ethical, and moral respect for self and others? When did we stop talking to our kids about the importance of self-respect in relationships? What will it take to gets us to initiate that discussion again? As a parent, if I discovered my son or daughter tweeted about letting someone beat them all night long simply because they were “rich and famous,” you better believe there would be a serious discussion in their immediate future.

Bottom line here: Where does Hollywood’s responsibility end and ours begin? Why did we let that line get so blurred? How can we fix it? How do we remove the inequality of gender-based blame and forgiveness from the equation?

–Lauren Hale

Premium Membership, The Good Men Project

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Comments

  1. “Gender-based blame and forgiveness.” Ah I see, its a “leave the men” be post. Chris Brown didn’t serve the 5 years in prison he was originally sentenced to. If he does that and sets up a foundation for abuse victims I’ll let it go. Forgiveness is never necessary, ever. Really, at a time when the men in the military are raping the women and some men relentlessly, and the women are being punished, you plead on behalf of an abuser? At a time when countless children are being raped by men in the catholic church, you plead for forgiveness? Polansky, Senn Penn, Mel Gibson, Ike Turner, Bobby Brown, James Brown, Charlie Sheen…nobody cared. Now we care. Now we’ve come to consciousness about what message we’re sending to abusers and victims. And a few days later, a post preaching to victims about ‘forgiveness’. Wow. Nice priorities. SAVE THE ABUSERS!

    • Amberbug thank u!! My thoughts exactly… except u left out the curse words ;) Thank you for writing this I was nauseated by the ignorance of this article. So sad ….

    • “Polansky, Senn Penn, Mel Gibson, Ike Turner, Bobby Brown, James Brown, Charlie Sheen”

      …plus Chris Brown; so they should be marked for life? The judges didn’t give these people life sentences; but is it our job to do that? I didn’t know we were qualified to hand out life sentences. ;)

      I think we should focus our passion and anger, towards educating and supporting our sons and daughters and teaching them important life lessons, rather than wasting our energy on stoning these celebrities — for our failings as parents/society.

      Celebrities are larger than life, and the law does its best to hold them accountable to the same standards as regular citizens, but we can’t continue to hold them responsible for our own failings…because that’s what we’re doing. We build them up, and tear them down when they fail us — this makes a heck of a lot of sense. lol.

      • …plus Chris Brown; so they should be marked for life? The judges didn’t give these people life sentences; but is it our job to do that? I didn’t know we were qualified to hand out life sentences.
        Apparently there is an exception to it when it comes to certain types of criminals. We can just decide that they were not punished enough so just heap even more punishment on them.

        I can understand why people would be angry at Brown still. And I can even understand people saying they won’t support him by buying his music or going to his shows. But trying to hold them in contempt for all eternity really doesn’t do much good (no that is not meant to pressure someone to forgive the ones that did them wrong, just a reminder of what that grudge can do).

        Seriously the biggest way to do damage to a celebrity is take their limelight away. Never spending a dime on any Chris Brown product will probably hurt him more than any attempt to make him out to be some demon.

  2. I am so with you on this. Very eloquently put

  3. Chris Brown is a good jump point into the important discussion of domestic violence/teen violence…Most of the time the discussion never occurs because it is shrouded in secrecy and shame…

    I was in a coercive, abusive relationship for 7 years as a teen and at the time I never identified myself as an abused person….the manipulation and verbal and physical abuse was so gradual and insidious…I was too young to understand fully what he was doing…I finally gained the strength to finally leave after several years but not without a few punches and kicks before he left for good….

    I got on with my life and tried to distance myself from my past and move on with my career and establish a home and family…20 years later, he found me and stalked me to my utter panic (I was most afraid for my husband and son…they were innocent and ignorant of what had occurred before)…I had to force myself to confront the past and report to the police the danger my family was in…prior to that I tried to act like it had never happened…And where does that get us if we sweep all the unpleasantness under the carpet? What happens if we never talk about domestic violence and stalking and rape? Should my husband and son be harmed because of some relationship that I had with a psychopath years before?

  4. The Good Men Project should be adamantly AGAINST abuse. Not pleading for criminals who ruin lives and kill other people. The piece reads like he’s the author’s little kid who broke a window with a baseball. He’s rich, famous, doin’ fine.
    “Hadn’t Mr. Brown just been through batterer intervention? Oh yes, he attended all right – but it would seem that Mr. Brown’s behavior has not changed one bit. Just mention the fact that he beat Rihanna, and what does he do? Goes berserk and destroys his dressing room. Add to this the fact that it was a woman interviewer who brought up something he did not like to hear. This is the exact pattern Mr. Brown showed the night that he beat Rihanna: she had confronted him about cheating or flirting with another woman, and he attacked her. No one much likes to be confronted about bad behavior. But for Mr. Brown, it seems to present an additional problem when the person confronting him is a woman. And for him to respond to a woman’s comments with violence suggests that his batterer intervention program taught him nothing.”

  5. Kirsten (in MT) says:

    If you’re looking for gender parity in how we treat abusers, why suggest we go lighter on male abusers? Why not suggest MORE social repercussions for female abusers?

    • This! If we’re going to put celebrities on pedestals, then I understand why we seem to think we have a place at the table when it comes to forgiving (or not) celebrities. Personally, I think the focus should be on doing what we can to prevent abusers from abusers again. Whether that’s counseling or imprisonment is a different discussion (do you think abusers can be rehabilitated or do you think they are destined to abuse again?).

      But the focus should be on protecting the abused from female abusers as much as male abusers, not on forgiving a celebrity for beating his partner.

  6. I’m with Amberbug. Chris Brown will blow up again the moment he is triggered again. Forgiveness may or may not be “to help ourselves, not the abuser” & maybe that’s why Rihanna forgave him; but I believe that without some form of punishment, justice, or least verifiable remorse, forgiveness is not earned & should not be given. This is why: it teaches the abuser they can harm others with no consequences for their violence. I refuse to be guilted into forgiving my abusers, who have never been caught or punished, just because some person who can’t understand my pain and horror thinks that I “should forgive”. NO.

  7. Laurie Crosby says:

    “As we wait for him to “earn” our forgiveness, we must ask ourselves why he has to do so. By forgiving someone of their past transgressions, are we not removing the power of their actions from our lives? ”

    I don’t know if it’s so much about forgiving him for her own sake as it is the worry that he will do this again. He has shown, post-abuse, that he is still a loose cannon. It is hard to forgive when the other person does not seem to change.

    Also, to me, forgiveness involves looking at the entirety of a person’s life, and trying to see why they act the way they do. Not to excuse abusers, but to gain understanding of why he did what he did. In this sense, he may be “forgiven”, but that does not mean that I can act like it didn’t happen, and by that I mean watch his shows, buy his music etc. James Brown beat his wife as well, and he is still a beloved music legend. I am often torn when I hear his music (I mean, “Hit me!”, really?). How do we separate the artist’s art from his personal behavior? And should we separate them at all, since one seems to inform the other? If we had seen James Brown’s wife’s battered face, would people have felt differently about him? I think so. It is so difficult for people to get the image of Rhianna’s beaten face out of their minds.

    I think Chris Brown’s punishment is his now-complicated and possibly fading fame. And this may be the only punishment that will make it sink in that he really messed up his life, and those of others, by doing what he did.

  8. I am really shocked that Good Men Project would publish this article. I am a social worker so I do understand empathy for those who abuse as well as those who are abused. However; to claim that we as a society should just forgive Mr. Brown and let him go on his very public way is just appalling. Rihanna was most likely coherced into making a public statement of forgiveness whether she wanted to or not. She may also continue to be stuck in the cycle of abuse with Mr. Brown. There are many reasons we should take into consideration. Please keep in mind that domestic violence has patterns and cycles of behavior and to pretend like this was a one time incident and Mr. Brown got his slap on the wrist is just juvenile.

  9. I’ve been wondering for a while why people other than Rihanna are putting themselves in the position where they think its necessary for Chris Brown to earn their forgiveness.

    He blows up when confronted about his abusive behavior. I’ll agree that it sounds like he may not be a changed man but again what does that have to do with Rihanna’s forgiveness. Its hers to give and unless someone guilted her into it there’s nothing anybody else can really say about it.

    (And I’d also add that a year or two ago Mary J. Blige assaulted her husband while at a party and actually taunted him with “What are you gonna do? Chris Brown me?”)

  10. Ewww! A few paragraphs later I find it hard to read. So sick! Forgive him? What!

    As if forgiveness should be given like candy bars. So when someone trip me in the canteen I’ll turn around and say “I forgive you.” So when someone is driving recklessly I’ll say “I forgive you.” When a politician steal our dollars we just should say “I forgive you.”

    Can’t you see? Forgiveness is devalued when its given freely. To forgive might be divine, but the divinities sure does not give it for free. I sure would not forgive anyone if they don’t show me that they deserve to be forgiven.

  11. I really don’t understand what the writer is trying to say here. She seems to contradict herself when she moves on to the topic of forgiving Chris Brown.

    I think forgiveness is necessary for those of us who have prevailed over hurtful relationships BUT it does not in any way absolve the abuser from what he/she has done. I don’t see how society has forgiven female abusers any more than male. Chris Brown was celebrated at the Grammy’s not long after his assault on Riahnna. He was thrust in front of us still defiant and arrogant. That anyone would defend him is odd to me.

    Abusers like Brown and my ex husband are frequently narcissistic and rarely change. But because of their skill at manipulating people with the tears, deflection of blame and eloquent words combined with a position of status (my husband is a former NFL player) and good looks/physique, we are led to believe they are wonderful people. Such nice guys!

    I visited many abuse counselors when I was married in an attempt to save my marriage and help my husband in the process of becoming someone who took responsibility for his criminal behavior – stop the violence, control and intimidating acts. Stop the drinking and lying. I was told by NUMEROUS experts that it was unlikely he would ever be fully accountable for himself. In short, Oprah’s words, “If he hit you once, he’s gonna hit you again,” are rooted in solid factual evidence.

    Many told me I was in danger and I needed to leave as soon as possible.

    I took a good number of beatings, each one worse than the one before, before I actually did. For a year and half he called to tell me of his new ways. He was getting better. He was cured. We can be together now. He wasn’t. It was a game of the self-centered cat who can’t stand the idea that one mouse got away.

    But it took a LOT of repetition for my heart who loved him to be convinced by my brain who knew better, this was a pattern that was not going to change. So I had to change. It was the hardest thing I’ve ever done. Everytime I see in the news a woman who has been murdered by her distraught lover, I know that could have easily been me. I still halfway expect to hear of him dying violently somewhere.

    I know my ex husband has a lot of pain. I know he has significant brain trauma from pro football. I know he was neglected as a boy. My heart hurts for the pain he goes through. But I can’t fix it. Only he can.

    Just like Chris Brown, until he has consequences that are significant enough to compel change, he won’t. As long as he has someone there to tell him he’s incredible, he’s fine.

    It gives me chills to see other women in this position. Especially when I recall the nervous chuckle of the court-appointed abuse counselor when I asked him if he’d ever seen an abuser get better.
    “It’s very rare,” he said.

    • I think we should make a institution, or club or something, that could fight against these people. If we do not fight back, it would just continue. This things are very much like slavery.

  12. We create this heartbreaking paradox!
    Baby boys and girls are born perfect. We all need to make the world safer for boys so they don’t grow up traumatized, entitled and eventually dangerous. And we need to respect girls as equal in value – not as objects to be owned, exploited or abused.

  13. Chris Brown will be in the same group as those who came before him who beat women and went on to be successful and have their transgressions overlooked: James Brown, David Ruffin, Big Pun, Notorious BIG, etc…Those were just the first few to come to mind. It’s not about forgiveness, it’s about whether or not you want to support someone who is a beater? That will be up to each individual to decide. I believe in divesting from anything that doesn’t have my best interest in mind, entertainers, institutions whatever. So I don’t really care what Chris Brown does.

  14. I’m glad the article at least mentions some famous cases of female-on-male domestic violence, e.g. Lisa Lefteye Lopez. (I don’t think Rison’s mansion actually burned down, but she did torch it in anger.) I don’t recall much outrage in the media about the death of Steve McNair or Phil Hartman. Granted, these were two different scenarios, but both were victims of types of domestic violence. I don’t recall much discussion about violence against men when it became clear that Elin Woods attacked Tiger Woods with a golf club. I’m guessing the main sentiment out there was that they deserved it somehow, or in Hartman’s case it’s a shame there’s not more support out there for mental health problems.

    The ethics have started to flip. A century ago, a husband could often get away with killing his wife if she was unfaithful to him. I think most of us would say that’s reprehensible, that it’s outrageous that infidelity could be an excuse for murder. Totally barbaric. Now, however, the sentiment towards men who cheat is that violence seems perfectly reasonable. During the Clinton sex scandal, someone asked Dick Army what would happen to him if he had cheated. He joked that he would be lying a pool of his own blood, with his wife standing over him asking how she can reload the gun. That sounded really wise and comical at the time, but if you think about it, that’s not all that funny.

    Maybe one solution is to stop using the phrase “domestic violence” as if it were some totally different kind of activity from other crimes. The phrase seems to have gendered overtones built into it, but assault is assault. Attempted murder is attempted murder. Murder is murder. Arson is arson. Why not refer to an alleged murderer as an alleged murderer, no matter what the sex of the person is? We already have all the gender-neutral terms we need. Let’s start using them, because they’re pretty accurate already. Hartman and McNair were murdered. Tiger Woods was assaulted. Andre Rison was a victim of arson. Why is that so hard?

    • (Actually about the Tiger Woods thing I think it was shown that she did not attack him. Or it might be that people skipped over it so fast to get to the “juicy” part about his cheating on her. However one thing I do know is that it all happened on Tuesday and by the weekend Saturday Night Live (for those that may not know that’s an American weekly comedy skit show that prides itself on shooting all episodes live rather than prerecording) had a skit about it making fun of Tiger being abused.)

      • You’re right. I jumped to my own conclusions based on what I see as circumstantial clues.

        He didn’t press charges and no third party seems to have witnessed any assault of any kind. No one should say that she attacked him. I am speculating here. I admit it.

        Here’s what I got from the details: he had a fresh cut on his lip. He apparently drove away in quite a hurry, and when he stopped or ran into something, she smashed out two of the car windows with a golf club. (Dedicated golfers want to know what she used to break SUV windows – a 5-iron? sand wedge? Certainly not a putter.) Officially, the smashing of the windows was to attempt a rescue or to see if he was alright, and the doors were locked so desperate measures were needed. Seems a little fishy that one would break out two windows to unlock a door. That’s not proof of any assault. It just seems suggestive to me.

  15. wellokaythen says:

    First of all, the people responsible for idiotic tweets are the people who send them. Are we considering holding the entertainment industry responsible for every insensitive idiotic tweet that someone sends regarding any entertainment celebrity? Seriously?

    I’ll remind everyone that Twitter is an actual corporation. It is not “the internet.” It has shareholders and property and decision makers (and lawyers and spokespeople). Why not petition Twitter itself, which is the actual medium of these idiotic expressions?

    I’m not the guy to see racism at the heart of everything, but I can’t help but notice that most of the examples floating around here are of black men being violent towards black women. There’s a good hypothesis to be made that American society is generally much more tolerant of “black on black” violence than other combinations, and that includes domestic violence. I would be pleasantly shocked to discover that when it comes to partner assault Americans were completely colorblind. Ike Turner and James Brown generate lots of jokes in the music industry. I’m not sure their histories of spousal abuse have hurt their image more than helped their image.

  16. wellokaythen says:

    First of all, the people responsible for idiotic tweets are the people who send them. Are we considering holding the entertainment industry responsible for every insensitive idiotic tweet that someone sends regarding any entertainment celebrity? Seriously?

    I’ll remind everyone that Twitter is an actual corporation. It is not “the internet.” It has shareholders and property and decision makers (and lawyers and spokespeople). Why not petition Twitter itself, which is the actual medium of these idiotic expressions?

    I’m not the guy to see racism at the heart of everything, but I can’t help but notice that most of the examples floating around here are of black men being violent towards black women. There’s a good hypothesis to be made that American society is generally much more tolerant of “black on black” violence than other combinations, and that includes domestic violence. I would be pleasantly shocked to discover that when it comes to partner assault Americans were completely colorblind. Ike Turner and James Brown generate lots of jokes among African American musicians. I’m not sure their histories of spousal abuse have hurt their image more than helped their image.

    • wellokaythen says:

      Sorry for the repeat. The site kicked me out and I couldn’t tell it had gone through. The first one is the final version. The second one was the draf version, sent by mistake. Please don’t read too much into the differences between the two…..

  17. I thought a bit about Chris Brown and characterization as a woman beater who won’t change and should not be forgiven…. This seems to be the consensus; The Daily Beast, CNN, most posters on GMP and other sites of high traffic. I wonder how many of the posters have taken a moment or two to consider that he is young and grew fast; becoming a “celebrity” while he was still a child. Yes, he is talented and became rich and famous; yet all of this began while he was a child. He was discovered at age 13(At that age, I was trying to get over the bad call the umpire made during my 7th grade Prep School championship baseball game). He grew up in a world where he was not allowed to be innocent, to make mistakes and to grow from those lessons. He grew up with a sense of self that came from the music buying public, and a level of pressure and responsibility that most Good Men Project readers take for granted or can’t even imagine. And yes, part of that has to do with race, but a lot of it simply has to do with circumstance; taking care of people who should have been protecting him. Young and talented stars are not allowed to figure it all out as young people naturally do. Childhood is about feeling safe enough to try things and choose things that could turn out to be painful mistakes…. And knowing that we are still loved and taken care of…As adults, we should always catch the people(our children, siblings, cousins, friends) we love, when they make mistakes…
    I spent some years in the film business, always on the studio level. You cannot imagine how unnatural it is for a young and famous person, hell, any famous person to grow up with such a level of public scrutiny. Paparazzi, E Online, The Daily Beast, TMZ, etc. Someone is now capturing every moment. I do not condone or excuse Chris Brown’s actions towards Rihanna . There is not a situation where a person should resort to physical violence towards another person. Still, I do believe that we cannot entirely understand their lives and experiences. I believe that a 20 something year old celebrity who has grown up in the public eye, has a great deal to learn. I think that many of these young people are very likely to need a regular therapist and will probably make some incredibly bad decisions.
    I cannot imagine living the life of a celebrity. I have never seen lives change so quickly and people become something they are not. You sacrifice more of yourself than you can imagine. I will also not criticize Rihanna, if she has decided to let him back into her life. My god, we know so little about their lives. We cannot understand their world. To grow up with very little and be thrust into a world where virtually anything you ask for is yours, where there is no room for the innocence of youth, where the public perception of you becomes your sense of self, before you figure yourself out, where it is difficult to know who you can trust, where dozens of people that you probably don’t love, count on you to support them. I’ve seen the pictures of Rihanna after the very public incident of abuse. They are horrible. There is no excuse for what Chris Brown did to his girlfriend. Physical violence should never be excused. Still, I remember the world in 1989; the year Chris Brown was born. It is not that long ago. He is still so young. When I was the same age as Chris Brown’s arrest for domestic violence, I had been educated at one of the ten best high schools in the country, one of the ten best colleges in the country and The Betty Ford Center. At age 13, he had been, signed and was on on his way to becoming a personality that was bigger than the person that he was still becoming. At 13, my biggest concerns were how to communicate to a girl that I liked her without any actual indication.
    I have never doubted that I have more people that love me than I can count on my hands. I never worried that I could fall and not be caught. I think back and realize how luck I was and am. Still, so many difficult years, an intervention and 3 months at Betty Ford.
    Imagine being 10, 13, 20 years old and carrying that weight/gift that makes you a celebrity. Chris Brown is a young man. I will not dispute the fact that he did something terrible, and might have been(might still be) a troubled person. Still, I believe that people can change. Especially young people. I am certain that we cannot translate someone else’s life and character through our own experiences alone. And I believe that difficult things can make people learn to better people. If they are willing to do the work.

  18. Laurie Crosby says:

    Also, are you aware that after Brown won a Grammy, he tweeted “HATE ALL U WANT BECUZ I GOT A GRAMMY Now!” and then “That’s the ultimate F*CK OFF!”?

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/chris-brown-responds-with-angry-tweet-to-grammy-performances-criticism/2012/02/15/gIQAcAwMGR_story.html

    Does this sound like someone who has any regrets? Someone who is sorry? Someone whose fame should continue to be supported? Someone who has worked on his issues? No, it is the reaction of a petulant child who is resentful of being caught and punished. I mean, not even winning a Grammy is enough for him to have the confidence to take responsibility for the fallout of his actions. He feels wronged, and as you know, an abuser who feels wronged is a dangerous person waiting to explode.

    I, too, have experienced domestic violence and the mindset that comes with it, and I want to be frank about something here. When you say “As we wait for him to “earn” our forgiveness, we must ask ourselves why he has to do so. By forgiving someone of their past transgressions, are we not removing the power of their actions from our lives? ” …this sounds a bit manipulative. I do not think that it was done consciously. I understand the thinking behind the idea that one can forgive even though the abuser has not changed.

    But “forgiveness” does *not* mean that we allow the abuser, and our relationship with them, to continue as before. If we forgive Brown — and by this, it seems like you mean we should move past his actions and let him continue to be famous — if we let him be famous, how has our relationship with him changed? Before the abuse, his relation to us was one of artist and fan; if we forgive in the sense of letting this relationship continue as before, is that truly forgiveness? To me, it sound more like excusing.

  19. Richard Aubrey says:

    Said it before: Only the victim can forgive. The rest of us have the choice to shun, ignore, pay no attention to, avoid, speak poorly of, variously inconvenience as the opportunity appears, such assholes. To point to them as being assholes. To point to their apologists as being at least moral idiots if not actual assholes.
    To ponder the actual issue of celebrity and what kind of actual moron thinks celebrity has any connection at all, unless a possible negative correlation, with being a good person.
    And there is no time liimit.
    Forgiveness? Irrelevant.

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