The Los Angeles Times featured an interview this weekend with Stanford University psychologist Philip Zimbardo and Nikita Duncan, authors of The Demise of Guys: Why Boys Are Struggling and What We Can Do About It.
These two experts assert that the culture in which our boys are growing up—with near non-stop access to pornography and video games—is creating a generation of males who are essentially anti-social.
As a mother, I can’t help but be concerned about the ways in which very young adolescents have almost unlimited access to pornography from very early ages. While generations of Americans have had porn accessible to them (have you read John Tinseth’s My First Playboy?), the variety and accessibility of porn has skyrocketed in the last decade or so.
Zimbardo: Since there are no limits on porn, kids can be watching. So you have a 12-year-old who has no sexual experience at all, and that’s what his view of romance becomes. It doesn’t include talking or negotiation, it has no boundaries, not even foreplay — it’s a totally alien view of what ordinary sexual relationships are and can be.
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While of course it’s completely anecdotal, if you talk to young women about their sexual pasts, many will recount a lover who barely seemed to notice her in bed… These guys are famous for changing positions rapidly, aggressively pursuing actual intercourse without a lot of foreplay, and expecting women to orgasm from positions which logically don’t make a whole lot of sense to real women without supplemental stimulation. Most of the time we go on to discover that these guys have had significantly more experience with porn than relationships. On She Said He Said, the sex and dating advice blog my partner Eli and I write, we get more questions than we can count from women about interactions with men like this.
Beyond pornography, Zimbardo and Duncan are concerned about the consumption of video games. Any parent can attest to what seems like a compulsive or even addictive quality to video games in kids starting as soon as they’re old enough to use the catapult in Angry Birds. I don’t know anyone who can’t recount at least a least a few battles of screaming little ones over the end of video game time.
As they get older, they start to set up their social lives around the game console. I’ve seen the intensity of the obsession increase in my oldest son since we just recently allowed him to start playing Wii on his own… We have been very controlling about what he views and plays, and we finally just got him the Wii version of Super Mario Bros, one of the most innocuous games you can buy (he wanted Call of Duty—umm, don’t think so).
Our son was instantly addicted, in a way we never saw with Wii Sports or the educational games he’d been playing on the computer prior to this. Suddenly he wanted to only have playdates that focused around the game, and would be really angry when it was time to stop playing—even with “countdown warnings” that the game would soon be done. It seems like the video games bring out a side we don’t recognize as he doesn’t protest like this about any other form of play, even when he’s having an amazing time playing with friends or at a park.
This sudden obsession was sort of shocking to us, but Duncan offers some insights:
…video games show them that they can be the master of the universe. They feel good when they play video games, and there’s no risk of social rejection.
While this problem clearly could happen to any children, Duncan and Zimbardo assert that this problem is contributing to many of the ways in which boys, specifically, are struggling. It’s easy to say, “these choices are up to the individual, and if a boy wants to play video games all day, he should be allowed to.” And it’s certainly true that once a boy has reached adulthood he can do whatever he wants. But if these factors truly are contributing to boys falling behind and becoming less self-sufficient and productive, the problem extends to everybody in society. Zimbardo explains:
If boys continue to drop out of school at the rate they are, it affects national productivity, national success. Plus, it’s creating a new generation of men who are not suitable mates. The lack of general sociability could cause the quality of life in our whole culture to deteriorate. People would rather be in their rooms with their Internet or talking on a cellphone. It’s already happening. It may be too late.
I also wonder if the non-stop stimulation of video games and pornography don’t contribute to feelings of depression, though I haven’t read any research on this subject.
As a parent, it’s important to set limits for our children as to how much screen time they consume. But how can we best help young men who have their own computers in their rooms which they use for homework and other purposes? I feel strongly that we need to allow children to explore pornography and to play video games, and we need to be sure not to put shame upon boys for their desires. And yet we need to be sure that they are developing the social and productivity skills outside of the world of computers in order to succeed in life.
How can we do that? Zimbardo suggests re-doing or rethinking porn, but that seems like asking a mountain not to be tall. Are we supposed to picket randomly throughout Chatsworth, California (which I was recently told is the capital of porn production) for more romantic porn? That seems like a complete waste of time. Porn makers are going to produce what sells.
The LA Times article also references an absence of fathers in boys’ lives as a reason boys are struggling (though I’d argue that a lack of engaged, involved and aware parents of either sex is the bigger issue), and certainly this is a huge factor in the lives of kids who are struggling… But it sees quite separate from that of interactive media and pornography, and one that needs to be tackled in a very different way.
So what do we do? How do we help boys have brighter futures when the constant allure of a world where they have huge successes with no chance of rejection looms bright on the screen just a few feet away?
Image of young boy working on a laptop courtesy of Shutterstock
I’m a female who grew up playing computer games and I’ve always felt that my demographic tends to get ignored. One of the main reasons why I like role-playing games particularly is the interactive romances. I don’t think it’s so different from liking fantasy or romance novels. In fact, you could say that for some games the *primary* reason why I play them is the hope of romancing some cute fantasy character. (Thane from MassEffect or Fenris/Zevran from Dragon Age) I don’t think that men and women are so different in this regard. Some people prefer romance novels (or movies),… Read more »
Speaking of addiction
“According to Nielsen Media Research, the average American household watches 8 hours and 15 minutes of television in a 24-hour period. The average amount of time per individual (over the age of 2) is about 4 and a half hours.”
At least porn and video games are more interactive and have the side effect of improving motor control and computer skills.
Generally valid concerns, but a bit overstated I think. I also think there are several things getting jumbled together here that need to be disentangled from each other. 1. Being “antisocial” versus being introverted. If a person often prefers to spend time alone instead of with a group of people, then extroverts/extraverts tend to see this as a symptom of something fundamentally wrong, and worried extroverted parents (can’t tell if that’s the case here) often see this as a sign that a child is being damaged. There is a lot of “unsocial” behavior that is labeled “antisocial” when it is… Read more »
Porn and video games are a symptom of underlying societal trends that damage men and their roles in society. They are not the cause. Porn and video games are simply safe outlets for male energy and positive aggression for men and boys who have no other outlet for these energies. You spend an eternity vilifying porn and video games, and by extension men and boys, but until the underlying structural social issues are countermanded, there will be no positive movement on any of these issue. On the bright side, because porn and video games are, as I said, an outlet… Read more »
Well, my own relationship/sexual history is much different from Sarah’s. When I first started having romantic relationships, I found the guys to be much more attentive (even when clumsy) to mutual pleasure. They were more gentle and kinder in bed. As I have gotten older, I’ve experienced men that just start doing things they saw on porn on me without even asking. They seem less kind in bed. Things that make no sense to do with someone if you were looking for mutual pleasure. They try to do all these crazy positions too fast, all these ridiculous tricks, they don’t… Read more »
B*****’s and Ho*s, are you sure that is from porn? From what I gather it had nothing to do with porn but arouse from rap and a “street” culture, I’d say prostitution had more of an impact there. Also how do you know they started doing things they saw in porn, did you ask? I am genuinely curious. Is it stuff that could have been taught without porn? I’ve seen things in porn I’d like to try but it’s also stuff I could hear from friends, learn via other means, or even make up myself. I use porn regularly whilst… Read more »
“B*****’s and Ho*s, are you sure that is from porn? From what I gather it had nothing to do with porn but arouse from rap and a “street” culture”
Which is exactly what she was saying
I wasn’t clear if she was blaming porn, or saying simply it’s spreading. It’s also not porn…
That’s what I was sying Spidaman3, thanks. It all ties into how are culture plays off of all kinds of media information. Archy, the truth is, I really resent the idea that you believe I am the one that needs my eyes “opened”. We have different beliefs surrounding porn. Just because you accept sexual material and I don’t doesn’t mean your eyes are open and mine are closed. Even when porn doesn’t showcase the more brutal elements, 9 times out of 10 it’s the woman being treated negatively or stereotypically or being objectified. Despite the fact that there is some… Read more »
Yes to all of this. Writing a book now that covers some of this. Thank you for the most welcome gift of sanity validation. 🙂
I’ll try reply properly to this comment after I heal up, just had surgery yesterday and I’m on heavy painkillers. “They were less focused on it being a mutual experience and more focused on copying the fantasy they had been seeing since they were boys. Sex today seems to be less about connection and more about watching other people hump and copying what they are doing. I’m 31 and I was on the cusp of when the internet started taking off.” I’m trying to understand this part, by the sounds of it you were dating men younger than you are… Read more »
Erin, this comment is very intelligent well written. I think we’re in a similar era with our conversations about porn as we once were with conversations about smoking. At first, there was a lot of push back and denial about the addictive nature of cigarettes and the harm they were doing because people did not want to give them up, so they denied it was a problem. People said they could quit anytime. They said second hand smoke did not hurt other people, and even to discuss it infringed on their rights to smoke. The first people to talk about… Read more »
“I think it will be the same with online porn and kids watching it from such young ages.” Media content should be age-suitable for people, more needs to be done for helping young minds stay away from hardcore imagery whether it be violence, porn, etc, but the majority of that responsibility is on the parent. Some parents need to realize the computer is not a babysitter, they need to ensure there are appropriate content locks to do their best at keeping it away from their kids. I personally believe porn is less damaging than the violent culture we have, and… Read more »
Great points Lori. I think the parallel between smoking and porn you made is particularly interesting. I am also in agreement with you regarding the difficult issue of where we acknowledge that we are socially failing young boys with how adult men and women deal with porn themselves. Particularly with men since young boys very much need strong male leadership in their lives. It’s not just young boys that are having their sexuality shaped through porn, there are plenty of older men that have been grown adults for generations before porn made a break through over the internet. But it… Read more »
“I see in in wives that are now in their 60s confused and hurt why their husbands of 50+ years are locked away in the computer room or when they come across material of beautiful young women that their husbands have been enjoying.”
I’ve seen hundreds of romance novels, full of lust n sex in the possession of women 50+years old, the covers adorned with men young enough to be their sons. Do you worry about this medium as well? Just curious if it’s porn in particular, or any fantasy material with age gaps, ideal beauty etc that bother you.
“But we all know that porn is primarily made and consumed for male pleasure first. What does that say about female sexuality too? It’s a very jumbled up confusing issue.” You’re not giving much agency to these women who willingly look at porn, in fact it’s quite insulting. Ever think that maybe they don’t see it ALL as degrading and they consume porn of a decent nature (that is infact quite plentiful). Who’s to say they are buying into their own sexual objectification? You do realize many adults do see women as more than just sexual beings, and many of… Read more »
Co-sign Archy. The anti-porn tone here is extremely discomforting. Porn is not equivalent to addictive substances, nor is it inherently bad. Views of it as such seem to come from places of personal fears and sex negativism than from actual critical analysis of porn and its place in society. Notably, porn has existed FOREVER. And access hasn’t exactly been “restricted” over the greater period of human history, or in most cultures. Shoot, Romans were drawing explicit sexual organs and acts since at least Pompeii. Many indigenous African societies have families living under the same roof in a single room, thus… Read more »
Zek J Evets said: “The anti-porn tone here is extremely discomforting. ” Personally, I find porn to be pretty anti-female more times the not and that’s extremely discomforting for me as a female who really wants to be able to have emotional, mental and sexually healthy relationships with men. For me, it’s scarey to see just how much men enjoy women being treated certain ways that have become popular through porn and fantasy. I don’t think that more kinky sex = better more open sex. I think this is a misconception. To me, it’s like we’ve gone from one spectrum… Read more »
Further, you took my 60+ year old man reference to make your own point. For one thing, I don’t think the ability to look at porn automatically equates to someone openning up their sexuality. Secondly, I am discouraged by your ability to dismiss the 60+ year old women’s experience concerning their partner’s porn use. The reality is that for a lot of these women, they are beginning to feel lost and disconnected from their partners because their partners are spending time seeking out material of girls 30-40 years their juniors and are spending more times with their computers then with… Read more »
Erin, Wasn’t exactly speaking to you, but okay… Have you ever watched porn with a man before? Have you ever tried watching porn from a man’s perspective? Better yet! Have you ever tried looking at porn made for women and/or couples? There’s TONS of it out there, and I think that if you base everything you know about porn from Skinamax or Brazzers, you’re getting a skewed view. And I’m pretty sure that you do, since you seem to associate all porn with misogyny, which is kinda simplistic since in the porn industry, women hold a lot of power and… Read more »
Personally I’ve watched porn with my boyfriend and it does absolutely nothing for me. I guess I’m not visual enough, or something. It wasn’t a turn-on at ALL, and I love sex, but honestly, after the shock of seeing people’s private parts wore off, I just felt bored. It was SO repetitive. Oh there’s another guy with a big d!ck. I wonder what orifice he’ll stick it into this time? Oh, that one again. That said, as I remarked in an earlier comment, I don’t think porn is destroying relationships in general. (I know it can be a problem in… Read more »
Sometimes it’s easier to find the 20’s porn vs the 40’s stuff. Thinner women porn are more likely to be younger as well, and since it’s fantasy in a culture that hates fat it’ll be quite popular. But it depends what the individual man or woman is looking at, whilst you may be seeing this hot young woman with fake tits wondering why he is with you, he might just be thinking “I love how the penis looks penetrating the vulva”, be thinking of the act of sex. Most of the amateur content I see is college age to about… Read more »
@ Sarah
“Personally I’ve watched porn with my boyfriend and it does absolutely nothing for me.”
Try watching 9 1/2 Weeks with your boyfriend. It may be eroticism that you’re looking for rather than hard core sex.
@Erin, Lori Really, really think the two of you are working with a very stereotyped understanding of porn -I gather you’re not consumers which is your right. I’m not sure what would convince you, but if anything the advent of the Internet has decentralized the production of porn from the studios to people’s bedrooms -where do you think YouTube comes from? If anything, porn today is far more “real” than the feminist conceived caricature of a misogynistic medium condemned in the 80s. And smoking is not a good example, because unlike cigarette consumption, porn consumption is strongly gendered and not… Read more »
@ Lori Day It’s great that you’re writing a book on this. I can resist taking the opportunity to get your take on something I was thinking about. From the research I’m seeing, excessive porn use seems to be harmful only in the sense that it impacts (mostly) men’s ability to have an intimate, long term relationship with women. It affects women’s self esteem in these relationships and some men start to prefer their porn to having an actual woman. I’ve heard that excessive masturbation sometimes results in men having an inability to orgasm PIV. The tightness of their hands… Read more »
The concern that echoes from posts like these — concerned parents worried video games, new music, the internet, cell-phones, etc are ruining their kids is the stuff of neo-Luddite paranoia. It taps into fears of unknown technology, of generations raised in a rapidly changing world, and assume the worst. I can tell you that video games do not, as a rule, create problems with young men. Neither does porn. Violence on television, video-games, music, porn… none of these are ruining the next generation. What creates problems with young men are the actual problems themselves, i.e. lack of parental involvement, poverty,… Read more »
I think what scares me about the games is not the games themselves — I monitor EVERYTHING in my kids’ lives like a maniac. They’re small still, 4 and 7, so they need it. Call of Duty is WAY out of their range of understanding, and being as Phantom Menace made my eldest cry in fear, I think Call of Duty is just simply the wrong game for him—now and maybe for a long time. What scares me about the games was the intensity of need they seem to express over them. It’s like nothing else in their lives. Seriously… Read more »
You’re right, the age appropriate point is a non-issue as we can agree that 4-7 year olds don’t need to be playing gory war games… at least not until they’re 12 ; ) But you describe this intense “need” your kids have for video games and how it scares you. Why is that? do you feel like they’ll start to act out the games in real life, lose touch with reality, shrug off school/friends/life? I think the hunger that parents see is in nothing new — kids have obsessed over toys, foods, movies, games, since time immemorial. It’s just the… Read more »
Joanna – please take a look at the ESRB rating system. Call of Duty is a game meant for adults, not children. And I completely agree with Zek, join your child in video games. Play them with your son. You’ll understand why he might be feeling the way he does, and you’ll have fantastic bonding time with your son. Honestly, Super Mario Bros is addicting, because you want to get to the next level. It takes timing skills, concentration, good hand-eye coordination… and it can be frustrating when a parent comes in and wants to shut off the game in… Read more »
Yeah, I do play Super Mario Bros with them (like I said, I’m all up in their business!) and I love it. I get addicted to it! I have to cut us off and I’m known for swearing and yelling and generally getting crazy over it.
I guess I worry more when they’re bigger and more independent. I mean, at some point they’ll be old enough to play Call of Duty and then I’ll have to let them and trust in the whole process…
“I mean, at some point they’ll be old enough to play Call of Duty and then I’ll have to let them and trust in the whole process…” Call of Duty is rated M…meaning that it’s recommended for no one under 18. Same goes for almost every single video game that people get up in arms about for violence or sexual content. Even if you want to let your kids play video games, you can totally and very easily justify not letting them play something rated M. I’ll go a step further though, and say that since you’re the parent…really you… Read more »
I second this, Heather.
“Then even when they break the rules, they’ll at least be able to look back as they’re older and understand why those rules were there in the first place.” I disagree. My parents were just like yours, except I was the one that broke the rules all the time (can’t say the same for my brother, I just don’t know). I remember seeing my first R-rated movie and just not understanding what the big deal was. As a result, I lost a lot of respect for my parents and began to view them as either “out of touch,” unjustifiably overprotective,… Read more »
I am actually inclined to agree with you Mike, but since I’m not Joanna, and especially since I’m not a parent, I don’t have much of a place to talk about how Joanna raises her kids. I am an adult gamer, however, and I might be able to provide some insight about video games so she can make a more informed decision.
I just don’t want to open that can of worms about parenting styles because that is probably a little too personal for most parents.
Good then! haha perhaps it can be easier to see why they get hooked on it. As far as games like Call of Duty, they’ll be exposed to it eventually. It won’t ruin them. It certainly didn’t ruin me. But by the time they’re teenagers, I would think that they can successfully separate fantasy from reality. Almost all my friends are gamers, and so am I, and I can assure you that people do not instantaneously shrug off all social life in favor of video games. If someone does, then the problem is with the person themselves, not the video… Read more »
Yeah I’m going to second yours too. 🙂
Oo and also add, that if anyone’s interested in a really honest look at video game addiction from someone who had a problem, and is involved in the games industry, take a look at Extra Credits’ episodes on it. They usually do animation for their videos, but this time they opted for live action…which is why it’s not the best quality video. But what he says is really good.
http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/game-addiction-pt.1
Steph and Joanna, I also recommend these games as ones with great storylines and characters you want to play as because they’re so affecting: The Metal Gear Solid Series: Playstation, Playstation 2, Playstation 3 (Action, Espionage) Silent Hill series: Playstation, Playstation 2, Playstation 3, (Horror) Heavy Rain: Playstation 3 (Suspense, Drama) Prince Of Persia: Sands Of Time Trilogy: Playstation 2 (Action, Adventure) Ico: Playstation 2 (Fantasy) Shadow Of The Collosus: Playstation 2 (Fantasy) La Noire: Playstation 3 (Crime, Thriller, Drama) The Darkness 1 and 2: Playstation 3 (Action, Horror) Alan Wake: Xbox 360 (Action, Horror, Suspense) Max Payne 1, 2… Read more »
*Cries* I am PC only…which is why I haven’t played Journey yet. Someone put Journey on PC now, please. lol.
I played LA Noire, and loved it, right up until the end of the game. It was such a compelling story that I got really pissed off at Cole and I literally have not played that game since. In a way I think that’s what made it a good story, because it totally drew me in. Out of the Rockstar Games, I think their best one was Red Dead Redemption. What a compelling storyline that was. The atmosphere of it, the theme of the story… riding into Mexico for the first time gave me such chills. I reallly want to… Read more »
It’s never really about video games. The same has been said about literally any new media, from books to radio to tv and now video games. This is nothing new, nothing that hasn’t been said already. Accompanying any new media is a slew of adults crying “think about the children!” and frankly, I think this stems mostly from ignorance. While yes, video games in excess is bad. But anything in excess is bad! Exercise, eating, drinking… All bad in excess. Moderation is always key. Now, the problem I find with most parents who are not gamers is that most dont… Read more »
Well, find romantic porn for your son and daughter to watch, if you catch them looking at porn then say please view this instead and let them do their thing alone. I think often it’s not that they want a certain kind of porn, it’s just whatever pops up first and is easily available. But then again, this is also illegal (supplying porn to minors) I believe so I’m not quite sure what parents can do. Banning it outright will probably turn it into a forbidden fruit and increase desire maybe? But seriously, is porn what is harming our boys?… Read more »
“Our son was instantly addicted, in a way we never saw with Wii Sports or the educational games he’d been playing on the computer prior to this. Suddenly he wanted to only have playdates that focused around the game, and would be really angry when it was time to stop playing” When I was about 19, I used to play a sword and sorcery game (I think it was called Zoare) where you attained character levels and Centipede among others. I got so frustrated with my inability to advance in the games that I broke into the data files. I… Read more »
Before video games, kids were watching too much TV. My nephews play more video games than my nieces, but my nieces spend more time on the internet than my nephews. Granted it’s not watching porn, but I can’t see how interacting on social media is significantly different from interacting in an on-line game. I’ve seen on-line games were you can make comments to other players. It was an interesting read, but I do find one thing irritating, “If boys continue to drop out of school at the rate they are, it affects national productivity, national success. Plus, it’s creating a… Read more »
I am confused by how much the original article is gendered. You have to ignore a LOT of “I’m so embarrassed about all the porn I wrote back when I was a teenage girl and didn’t even understand how penises worked” confessions to imagine that only boys get weird notions of sex in the absence of actual education. Or, well, I guess you don’t have to ignore those confessions, just not see them. Our culture makes it pretty easy to not see them, to be fair. But man oh man, are they out there. Likewise, the notion that video games… Read more »
I think that if studies are showing video games are 60/40 m/f then their theory must be that the video games are either being played more hours by boys or are affecting boys differently, which is entirely possible.
I may have to read that book in the spare time I find… Probably around the same time I find a unicorn of course 😉
“the porn I wrote back when I was a teenage girl” Kinda of stretching the popular understanding of porn (if not the strict definition). Writing is an extension of personal fantasy and not an external force shaping it. Internet porn, on the other hand, shapes an impressionable persons’ conception of sex and consequently the way he interacts with others. If boys are using porn disproportionately more than girls (which I think is true, but don’t actually know), than we would expect more boys developing more difficulties conducting real romantic relationships with real people. As for video game, must confess I’m… Read more »
“As for video game, must confess I’m not buying it. Playing games with real people in a fantasy world is still more social than zoning out on television which we’ve had for generations now.” Well and here you’ve hit on something I think. Obviously I’m like totally biased in favour of not demonizing video games now. But anyway, I think it’s sort of video game’s time. Back when t.v. first started, everyone was so worried about how it’d harm the kids. Elvis’ hips – it’ll hurt the kids. The horribly named “race music” – it’ll screw up our kids. It’s… Read more »
Romance is favouring emotions over the libido right? Does romance include sex? When the man changes positions a lot, etc does that neccessarily mean he’s not being romantic, or is it that he’s not being romantic to HER standard? Even in High-school I knew much of the porn I saw was fake, who’s to say most men don’t realize it’s fake? Is it really shaping their sexuality based upon a fake female experience, or are they smart enough to realize it’s fake and just enjoy the fact they’re watching people have sex? Porn didn’t shape my sexuality, it gave me… Read more »
Archy, I don’t think there is anything wrong in providing adolescents a sex positive message, nor do I think pornography is a problem for adults who can separate fact from fiction. But I’m not convinced developing minds have the resilience to develop their own sexual expression without having that expression heavily influenced by their environment, whether their cognizant of the influence or not. And if porn is the dominate message their getting on sexuality, then their own sexual appetites are going to reflect/desire an unrealistic fantasy world not to be found on planet earth. And let’s face it, a number… Read more »
Hopefully they look at amateur content of real couples, then it simply becomes a thing of learning from your elders. But there needs to be some form of learning otherwise porn will fill the gaps since there isn’t anything else.
Okay couple of things…firstly, this idea that video games are affecting boys more than girls is a bit, well outdated. The last set of stats I saw put it at about 50/50, meaning if video games are causing boys to be anti-social, then they should theoretically be doing the same thing to girls. So if not, what’s the difference there? Secondly, and I really don’t mean this to be as hostile as it might sound, but there’s nothing saying a parent has to let their child play video games, like….at all. The games themselves are not the problem. If parents… Read more »
I too had a limited amount of time online (although it helped that AOL charged by the hour back then) And videogames. I see no reason why parents cant do that today either. Course I don’t have kids, so maybe there’s something I’m not seeing
Yeah, I so remember the whole charge-by-the-hour thing. And it used up our land line…and oh yeah we actually had a land line. lol.
Anyway, I also don’t have kids, so maybe I’m missing something too.
Eric makes a very good point here. I have seen research about both video games and porn which show the potential issues with them (of course related to overuse and parenting, etc). But it crucial, as with anything, to not blame the boys themselves…. They need to NOT be ignored and NOT be blamed for the disservice society is doing them.
“The lack of general sociability could cause the quality of life in our whole culture to deteriorate. People would rather be in their rooms with their Internet or talking on a cellphone. It’s already happening. It may be too late.” This has already occurred. People do not talk anymore. There is the lost art of conversation with many many Americans today. They would rather text, blog or email. We are witnessing the de-socialization of America. Voice mail should be eliminated in American business. Call ID should be tossed. People would then be forced to hold a conversation! “While of course… Read more »
“Now, with respect to these men. Most men in America, in my view, are undersexed. Women (hetero) spend the bulk of their efforts lusting and chasing after roughly a small percentage of men. So, the majority of men get undersexed. Nearly a third of adult men are involuntarily celibate.
Many women have ridiculously high and unrealistic expectations of men. Until they find Mr. Uber Attractive, they settle for sex/hookups with bad boys and the remainder of the 20% of men who get most of the sex.”
So, what you’re trying to say is…we should all buy into stereotypes.
It is not stereotypes Mike.
I will grant you that I have no empirical data to back up this assertion. It is just my “on the ground” observation.
Question: Ever wonder why women (our new empowered women) do not “marry down?” Just asking. Not a swipe at women as I believe in and support the progress women have made to be free human beings. But, I notice that well educated professional White women do not “marry down.”
I am not complaining about it. Hell, it is what it is!
Terrence, Literally everything in these two paragraphs is a stereotype: “Now, with respect to these men. Most men in America, in my view, are undersexed. Women (hetero) spend the bulk of their efforts lusting and chasing after roughly a small percentage of men. So, the majority of men get undersexed. Nearly a third of adult men are involuntarily celibate. Many women have ridiculously high and unrealistic expectations of men. Until they find Mr. Uber Attractive, they settle for sex/hookups with bad boys and the remainder of the 20% of men who get most of the sex.” You stereotype men as… Read more »
I in some ways admire Philip Zimbardo and Nikita Duncan for braving political incorrectness and broaching the subject of boys. It would be nice if the government gave enough of a rats *** about boys to acknowledge that there may be a problem. But, the anti-male lobby is powerful and would label them misogynists if they did so. So, it’s either ignore boys or get voted out of office. Guess who keeps losing.
Although they broach the subject, of course, in conclusion they predictably conclude by blaming the victims, the boys themselves which is worse than ignoring them.
I’ve seen this song and dance before, and it just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. As Sarah pointed out, the kind of behavior being complained about predates widespread high-speed internet access. This is doubly true when you consider the fact that the shifting gender-gap with respect to college enrollment is a continuation of a trend that began in 1975 (seriously, look it up, this is when male enrollment plateaued but female enrollment continued to climb), well before the internet or video games were of any consequence. I suspect the real problem here is what it always is: a desire to… Read more »
Economism. It does not explain everything.
You’re definitely right, we should instead look to ideas that cannot be tested empirically and can never be proven definitively.
/sarcasm
Mike,
As an economist by education and training, I was not trying to be a wise ass.
We have seen a declining labor force participation rate and a steep decline in construction and manufacturing jobs. However, the dropout rate remains fairly constant.
Based on the implied causality of your position, would not one expect the dropout rate to decline?
There are many other factors besides wages. Benjamin Friedman wrote a paper back in the 70s,”The Declining Econoomics Valuation of Higher Education”
You mean like spiking male community college enrollment that coincided with the big downturn in construction jobs?
Yes, I would expect to see that. And we did see that:
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/12/18/enroll
http://www.communitycollegereview.com/articles/210
We need to consider ALL possible explanations, and as has been demonstrated abroad, construction wages may very well be an explanation.
Actually I’d be alot more concerned about video games than porn, and it’s something I’d be concerned about for both genders. I don’t know that many men who I would say have a porn addiction, as in they spend most of their free time looking at porn and have difficulty with real relationships. I’m sure there’s some people out there who struggle to separate fantasy from reality, but I think there’s a difference between “watches alot of porn” and “never does anything else.” I do, on the other hand, know more than one man and woman with some form of… Read more »
*Stuff like WOW and Secondlife
I spend maybe 30minutes to an hour a day at times on porn, depends how busy my life is. Sometimes it’s 2 hours (use to happen a lot with medication that made it difficult to reach orgasm) and sometimes none at all. I’m definitely calmer on days I do it, but I can go a few days, even a week without any form of release and it isn’t too bad. My new medication has a side effect of increased libido though and thus the porn viewing has increased to match, all of this is without a gf though so I… Read more »
I am pretty obsessive about gaming but I manage to keep it all within my breaks when I’m not in school (which oftentimes means gaming really hard for a month or so once just once a year). The rest of the time that obsessiveness goes into my schoolwork. Work hard, play hard as they say. 🙂 I’ve gamed for more than 24 hours solid (with breaks for bathroom/snacks). About a year ago I put in ~48 hours in a game in three days. And that was just after a long plane trip from studying abroad, which should have exhausted me.… Read more »
Thank-you. I learned that I shouldn’t be ashamed of my sexuality, I like porn and I started realizing when I opened up about it that women were thanking me for it on the GMP. I think too often they may get this negative stereotype of what men look at with porn but when they hear how there are men just wanting to see sex in a loving but sexy way instead of the degrading way then it probably helps them to understand how porn viewers are diverse. Most of the anti-porn sentiment I see only really applies to a small… Read more »
As someone who was most certainly addicted to video games and who is in the demographic that this pretty much targets, I have a number of insights. #1. Involved parents. Parents can now let video games occupy their sons time and they don’t have to do any parenting. Give a boy a computer and a $15/mo World of Warcraft subscription and he’ll have an infinite amount of entertainment for $15. These games are addictive. I started playing MMORPGs in 5th grade and by the time high school rolled around, I was spending at least 30 hours a week playing MMOs… Read more »
“I, and probably every other boy/young man in my situation, long for a personal connection, affection, love, etc”
Collin,
Don’t give up, you’ll find that most girls/women want that too. If I can offer any advice, I’d suggest you remain plugged into, and expand upon, whatever social outlets (work, school, clubs, church, ect) permit you to get acquainted with potential partners and demonstrate how much of a catch you really are.
“How do you make this happen without self confidence? How do you have self confidence when you have experienced nothing but failure?”
How do you tie your shoelaces without self-confidence? YOU JUST DO IT. You don’t need any self-confidence to approach or ask a woman out. I met a woman while deeply depressed (I don’t suggest doing this BTW) and I told her I was incredibly depressed and didn’t think I was good enough for her. She still wanted to fuck me. You don’t need self-confidence to pick-up women.
That’s an awful analogy and you know it. You need self confidence to do it. Just because you’re depressed doesn’t mean you lack self confidence.
“Just because you’re depressed doesn’t mean you lack self confidence.” Yes it does! Being depressed means you lack self-confidence, self-worth and you feel like shit. You do not need self-confidence to do anything. All self-confidence is, is a belief in your own abilities and that you will be successful. If you have a mood disorder such as depression or bipolar you don’t have the luxury of relying on positive feelings or being motivated before you take action. If you wait to feel motivated, you will get even more depressed. Its called do-nothingism. You have to do something precisely when you… Read more »
So you were lucky enough to stumble upon a woman who WANTED to fuck you.
How is that in any way related to your depression?
(Might be that she thought she could, or wanted to, “fix” you. You know, as in the “suffering artist”-syndrome)
PS. The analogy is awful because you don’t need to ask the shoelace för permission before tying it.
The “just do it!”-advice can be interpreted in all sorts of wrong way on a subject like this.
How? It’s a simple question. How do you do it? I cannot bring myself to do most things because of my lack of self confidence and depression. Just do it only works if you can motivate yourself to do it. If you feel no motivation, then you won’t be able to do it. When you struggle to get out of bed in the morning, you aren’t going to have any energy or motivation to, let’s say, smile at a cute girl on the street.
Collin, The way that I looked at it when I was younger was that things weren’t going to change for me if I didn’t make an effort, and I also realized that I knew what it felt like to be rejected. Knowing that I didn’t get too tied up in the possibility and over think it. However if there was someone that I was interested I just told myself that I would try talking to them. I realized that rejection didn’t hurt like it use to, and eventually I became more successful at initiating conversations with women. I swear that… Read more »
Great piece Joanna. Thanks for posting.
Hi All,
I’ve posted a critique of the Zimbardo book on my blog at Psychology Today, which may be of interest:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/men-20/201205/the-demise-particular-type-guy
Thanks,
Mark
I am not a huge fan of porn but just want to comment that when I was in my 20’s, during the mid-late 1980’s, I had frustrating sex with boyfriends who changed sexual positions rapidly, had no interest in foreplay and thought I should orgasm easily without proper stimulation. These guys were my age or older and did not grow up watching porn on the internet because there was no internet. There was video porn in those days, but nothing like the 24 hour a day access there is today. I have no way of knowing if the percentage of… Read more »
Sarah, you made some good and honest points. Being a good lover comes with experience. It is like anything else in life. Practice, practice, practice. It does make perfect. In my view there are several dynamics at work. First, most men lack the sexual experience of most women. All studies clearly show women have more sexual partners than men. While many surveys show women STATING fewer partner, academic and more thorough studies conclude otherwise. Bottom line, if a woman says she has been with 5 partners, you need to double or triple this number. If a guys says he has… Read more »