Joanna Schroeder wonders what we’re saying about masculinity when we talk about Chris Brown and domestic abuse.
I’m really ready to be done with this bullshit. As a feminist, it’d be super easy to write yet another blog post about the damage being done to young women and girls when we see Rihanna being chummy with the guy who essentially tried to kill her a few years back.
I could write about how creepy it is that Rihanna and Chris Brown have teamed up (actually, their producers have teamed up, they have little to do with the process, I assume) on each of their new singles, “Birthday Cake” and “Turn Up The Music”, respectively.
But those blog posts would just pile up with all the others saying the exact same thing. NPR’s Ann Powers wrote an awesome perspective from both of these angles, in her piece Rihanna’s ‘Birthday Cake’, Reasons To Listen. As a music industry insider, she also gives us a pop-music context. Read her piece and follow her links for more on the history of Rihanna and Chris Brown, should you need it.
But what I’m really wondering is what our society is saying about men by accepting these behaviors. Of course we’re all aghast at Brown’s behavior. Nobody looks at those bloody, bruised photos of Rihanna’s face after Brown choked her, punched her, slapped her, kicked her and thinks, Yeah, that’s about right… Well, maybe some people do, but I can’t address sociopaths and criminals in this conversation.
This conversation is for us, the average working Joe and Joan who want the world to be better for everyone, and it isn’t new. As far back as I remember, we’ve been discussing how to separate the artist from the art. I was in high school in 1992 and a Jackson Browne fan when he allegedly gave Daryl Hannah a black eye and worse. I stopped listening to Jackson Browne after that, despite Sky Blue And Black being one of my favorite love songs of all time. In the last twenty years I’ve “forgiven” Browne and he’s back in rotation on my iTunes, and a recent acoustic version of Sky Blue and Black is currently featured in my Spotify playlist. Sigh.
And then there’s the problem of Woody Allen. Have we forgotten about what Woody Allen did with his 21 year-old former live-in girlfriend’s daughter—who was a minor when he lived in the same home with her? I mean, hello, nude pictures of her, open-legged? Sick. He was 56 years old. And this year all my friends are aflutter over Midnight In Paris. It probably is great, but I won’t know because as much as I want to see it, I refuse.
Some of my friends make the case that Woody Allen and Soon-Yi Previn are married now, and have been for a long time. And since I really, really want to see Midnight In Paris, I’m getting close to accepting this marriage as his penance for being a pervert. I mean, the movie is about writers! And love! And Paris! Gertrude Stein is a character… Le sigh.
So you can safely assume that while I recognize Roman Polanski as one of the best filmmakers of our time, I absolutely will not watch his films. His grief over Sharon Tate aside, I just can’t do it.
Here’s the part where I admit that I am a hypocrite (why am I constantly selling myself out as a hypocrite?!): I really like Chris Brown’s music. Not in the way I love The Rolling Stones, Ryan Adams, Damian Rice, Ray Lamontagne or Brandi Carlile (my favorite artists, currently), but in that stupid, feel-good, fun music way. In fact, my kids love the song Forever and I let them play it over and over again while we clean the house. How can I excuse this? How does society excuse this?
I know I’m up on a soapbox of judgement when I rally against the men I listed before. I know it’s truly just symbolic, and mostly meaningless. But it leads to a bigger question, one as old as time: How do we separate the artist from the art, and why does it matter?
There is a battle of two themes inside of me, waging war against one another. On one side is the idea that in eventually forgetting a man’s bad behavior we are sort of saying, “boys will be boys” which I believe is as bad for men as it is for women. On the other side is my deep belief in forgiveness and redemption.
Rihanna seems to have forgiven Chris Brown, why should I be different? But I keep asking myself what I’m telling my boys about masculinity when I say, “Oh hey, this guy tried to strangle a woman, but we sure do like him because he makes a great dance song”? Should I simply tell them that Chris Brown is a “bad man”, so we can’t listen to him, and try to switch them over to Lupe Fiasco?
Is listening to Chris Brown’s Forever all that different from taking my boys to see the Picasso exhibit when it came to The Getty last year? Picasso was famously brutal with women, and supposedly had an extramarital affair with a 17 year-old girl when he was in his mid-40s. Am I a hypocrite for encouraging them to appreciate Picasso when I am considering removing all Chris Brown music from my playlists?
I know, I know, Chris Brown is no Picasso, but let me ask you these questions:
Where do we draw the line when we consume the product of someone with whom we have deep moral fissures?
Would we feel differently about Chris Brown (or any of the artists I listed above) if they made amends, changed their lives, and found a way to work toward redemption? I feel strongly that this is the key for me, the effort to change and become better. But for some, that change is meaningless. What can we forgive, and what can’t we?
And finally, how does all of this “bad behavior” add to a damaging portrayal of masculinity in our society? Does all of this further the image of men as simple brutes whom we value more for their entertainment value than for who they are as people?
I really don’t have the answers, and I would love to hear what everyone has to say.
Photo courtesy of The Associated Press/boombox.com
About Joanna Schroeder
Joanna let me start out by saying that what Chris Brown did was assault and brutal vicious assault BUT it was not domestic violence OR at least not by the definitions put out the DV industry. This doesn’t excuse it of course but it does change the context a little (for me). He assaulted her and is 100% wrong but when we as a society starts to make a case out of DV of this, I am get really uncomfortable because now we are stretching the definition even further. There was no pattern of control, no attempt to control her this was a case where he completely lost it (and it was wrong)
For me, I don’t consume his product but if I did, I wouldn’t anymore…and you know what If I consumed Rhianna product I wouldn’t anymore either. When someone is willing to ‘get back together’ with someone so soon after something like this, I completely lose all respect for them as well.
So a boyfriend beating up a girlfriend in a car isn’t considered DV without establishing a pattern of control?
Actually I’ve seen some argue that no it would not be. According to said folks this would be be an assault but no DV because there was no history of control or other abuses (not just physical). This is coming from people who, seemingly out of nowhere, want to separate the different types of violence. Its usually along gender lines for the sake of saying that what men do to women happens over a long period of time while women do to men is a sudden one time event.
One good guess who the “some” I’m talking about are…
NO Joanna it isn’t. It is assault….
Remember according to all reports I have read, he ‘assaulted’ him first and he grossly over-reacted. This response was in in kind and not of the same measure.
Let me put that back to you since I have already stated WHY I don’t think it is DV.
Why do you think it is, Do you subscribe to the notion that any violent act between two people who know each other is DV. They were boyfriend and girlfriend , but they weren’t living together in any domestic relationship.
On campus here we call that kind of violence “interpersonal violence” because couples might not be living together in a domestic situation, but the violence is connected to the idea of the relationship (jealousy, stalking, abuse etc). It’s DV in the sense that it isn’t a random stranger, but it isn’t marital per se.
Let’s put it this way…if he was dating your daughter or your sister or your friend, would be concerned at all?
What is with all the logical fallacies lates. Another one, Appeal to Fear.
Of course I would be worried about him dating my child OR hanging out with anyone I cared about.
It is hard to believe that this flawed, absurd, and gendered piece was written by the same person whose insight and wisdom so clearly framed the complex motivations, consequences, and solutions for the problem of schoolyard bullying (yesterday).
I want desperately to ask the question “what was DONE to you?” How did a person with a gift for understanding become so conditioned by dogmatic prejudice regarding this (and related) issues?
Domestic violence is not a “men’s” issue, it is a human issue. The list of academic studies that demonstrate without any possible doubt that women and men are equally likely to hit, throw, punch, kick, and bite has become so long that it is no longer possible to list it. This issue cannot be fixed with myopic attention to only one half of the problem.
“Chris Brown, Woody Allen and Other ‘Bad’ Men”
“… what our society is saying about men by accepting …”
“I know I’m up on a soapbox of judgement when I rally against the men I listed before.”
” “boys will be boys” which I believe is as bad for men as it is for women”
“Does all of this further the image of men as simple brutes …”
I’m not entirely sure she is saying DV is a men’s issue, here Anthony. Joanna, clarify for me if I’m wrong, but what I took from the piece was that most mainstream magazines are focusing on Rhianna/Chris from the POV of why she’d go back with him?
In the cases cited by Joanna, they were male on female issues. There certainly are other incidents where the genders are reversed and there are incidents where the genders are the same. For her examination of the men as artists who produce beautiful work (but could easily be focused on female artists and their mistreatment of men, or same sex artists and their mistreatment of lovers) the question is…can we enjoy the work even though the human actions can be so terrible? And when the art is a commodity (like Browns) there is a vested interest in the corporations promoting him to keep him in the public eye at all costs because that equals $$. Same deal when Lindsey Lohan was breaking down. Sad.
This, though, “And finally, how does all of this “bad behavior” add to a damaging portrayal of masculinity in our society? Does all of this further the image of men as simple brutes whom we value more for their entertainment value than for who they are as people?”
Seems more the crux of the issue about men, society and the current narrative. I don’t believe Joanna is agreeing it’s a good narrative at all, Anthony. I think she’s questioning what badness it does to men to be viewed as entertainment, rather than human beings.
But Joanna, if I missed the mark please let me know.
Julie 100% gets what I’m saying.
I’d love to know some examples of women in the media who have been charged with assault or abuse, and who have done otherwise deeply amoral things, and then society has welcomed them back with open arms.
I know 100% the depth to which that happens in real life, but in this case I was talking strictly about celebrity/media/arts…
I did think of Winona Ryder shoplifting, but first I can’t seem to put shoplifting in the same category with battery or child sexual abuse (alleged). Also, Hollywood ridiculed her and she has barely worked since.
And yeah, I wonder if you guys — John and Anthony — get upset about the way men are portrayed in the media. I get upset with how women are portrayed. The Bad Girls Club, for instance, The Bachelor, lots of reality shows but also shows where women are props for sex and only out to take men’s money or to trick them. that’s a totally different conversation.
My question is whether you guys dislike how these men reflect back up on masculinity as a whole?
Does Chris Brown represent you? Does Woody Allen? Does Jackson Browne, Roman Polanski?
Because other than Polanski, society has decided these men are fine, and (with our buying dollars) invited them straight back into the fold, into the Grammys and into the Oscars.
Is this okay with you guys? THAT’S what I really want to know, and if I wasn’t clear on that, I apologize.
Please note that I put “Bad” in quotes in the title, because I think society does want to polarize men into “good” and “bad” and these are “Bad Men”… And personally I think it just damages the way the world sees men, when men are much more diverse than this.
It’s lame, but I’d respond to that question with another set of questions:
Who says that Chris Brown and Woody Allen are representatives of masculinity at all?
Why is their gender the key aspect in these cases?
Do I bear a responsibility as a male to counter all negative stereotypes that other people impose on my half of the world’s population?
Imagine if I asked African Americans if they accept Chris Brown as their representative. (“Don’t you black people care that one of you is giving all of you a bad name?”) That would be pretty offensive, I imagine. I could just as easily ask everyone in the United States if Chris Brown and Woody Allen are symbols of what it means to be American. Or ask everyone in the entertainment industry why they let these two men speak for them.
Even less popular perhaps – why do people who make a lot of money think they can get away with anything they want to? Maybe they did it because they’re arrogant and entitled, not because they’re XY.
It would be different, maybe, if Brown and Allen actively defended themselves using gendered language, like “I beat her up because I’m a man and that’s what we do” or “I’m male, so I can have sex with any female I want to.” I don’t see them standing on gender roles, or presenting much defense at all, really.
More to the point, imagine if we took Rihanna as a representative of all black women, to show how “they always put up with abuse by black men” or if we took Soon-Yi as proof of the stereotype that “Asian women are submissive, timid, and pliable.”
Imagine if we said Rihanna and Soon-Yi are creating a deep crisis in African American culture and Asian American culture, and these people need to reclaim positive models before it’s too late….
Thing is, TG, I’m not saying that men SHOULD reclaim positive role models. I’m simply asking what society is saying *about men* by accepting shitty behavior.
I don’t want to tell me what to do, I would never, seriously ever, tell you guys what to do or what to think. I’m simply wondering: is our blind forgiveness (even when they’re not asking for forgiveness) a healthy thing for our society, for men and for women.
Men on GMP really resent the fact that men are portrayed as brutes, that the world is portrayed by the media as one in which women need to be afraid of men, in which children need to be protected FROM men. I do NOT believe this, that the world is this way.
However, the huge success of these guys sort of reinforces what the media tells us about men. And what I’m saying is this:
It makes me mad that me media portrays you guys this way.
I want to see more attention upon Brad Pitt working in New Orleans on sustainable, eco-friendly housing and putting people to work. I want to hear more about how the thing Matt Damon is most proud of is his marriage and his children. I want to hear more about the good works men are doing.
I know, I know, brutality and sex sell. But that’s my message: Brutality and sex being the thing that sells, I believe, is harmful to men.
If we want to change the way the world sees men, we need more people doing what the GMP does – offering diverse views of masculinity and calling out oppression or discrimination in any form.
wellokaythen, that is a really, really interesting response and I deeply respect what you’re saying.
However, as a white woman, I just can’t answer what I/we/society should think about who represents us. I can say that I DO get upset with how women are portrayed on television and I do often say, “I resent the way that women are portrayed” especially when we’re portrayed as ball-busting gold diggers out for ourselves. And that happens SO much, and society thinks it’s funny and that BUGS me.
Here’s me ranting about how women are portrayed on Two and a Half Men: http://goodmenproject.com/arts/two-and-a-half-shades-of-masculinity/
I also hate the way men are portrayed on that show, just FYI.
I think your most important point, Wellokaythen, is that much of this is actually abot what *money and fame* allow us to get away with. You’re SO right about that. And we should question that for sure.
Stars are excused for bad behavior in general. A very large percentage of famous people have been arrested over the years, but you seldom if ever hear of it. Chris Brown’s misdeeds are talked about far more than others who have done similar things, including some women.
But, in my view, everyone deserves a chance to make a change and be given a second chance. It’s hypocritical for any human to take the stance that no one other than they should recieve forgiveness.
You asked:
“I’d love to know some examples of women in the media who have been charged with assault or abuse, and who have done otherwise deeply amoral things, and then society has welcomed them back with open arms.”
There’ve been quite a few.
Carmen Electra was charged with DV but you never hear of it when she’s mentioned.
Amber Portwood (Teen Mom) was charged with DV and is still on TV
Naomi Campbell beat lots of people up, but it’s only mentioned when she beats up the next person.
Ellen Nordegren (Woods) was guilty of DV but Tiger Wood refused to cooperate. It’s never mentioned.
These are some other media darlings who were charged with drug possession, drunk driving, theft, and other acts of malfeasance.
Winona Judd, Amy Winehouse, Queen Latifah, Lindsay Lohan, Britney Spears, Paris Hilton, Jennifer Capriati, Winona Rider, and others.
“I’d love to know some examples of women in the media who have been charged with assault or abuse, and who have done otherwise deeply amoral things, and then society has welcomed them back with open arms. ”
Lets see MS Lohan, MS Spears, MS Hilton, MS Richey (sp??), Kate from Kate and Jon + 8 <- though no criminal stuff, if you have watched any of the shows, it sure does show her as particularly moral but she came out smelling like a rose.
How about the ladies on "The Talk", joking about the woman who had cut off a guys penis like it was not big deal….IMHO, if men had done that they would have been fired.
Gale Magnum of the Duke Lacross scandal, got a book published even after being shown as a complete liar.
“… artists who produce beautiful work … can we enjoy the work even though the human actions can be so terrible …”
This will very from person to person.
When it comes to mistreatment of children, I can’t. I cannot express the depths of my negative feelings for Allen and what he did. I cannot stand to even see him. He is a profoundly loathsome and disgusting figure to me. It is visceral and entirely beyond my control. Five years ago, my wife saw Barcelona with her friends. Later she asked me why I was being compulsively passive aggressive and I realized I was (wrongly) blaming her “endorsing” Allen. I suppose I am “broken” on this issue, possibly because of personal experiences when I was a child.
One adult beating on another? No emotional reaction. Intellectually, I want Brown to go to jail (and I welcome the respite from his terrible music that six months in jail would bring).
What do I think is the “right” way to explain these issues to a child? Joanna Schroeder had EXACTLY the right words yesterday: “there are feelings inside [Chris Brown] that confuse and frustrate [him] and [he made] the wrong choice on how to express those feelings.” I don’t think a child can differentiate degrees of harm, but if you want to go there, you can add “His wrong choice was very very wrong, and someone else got badly hurt because of it.”
How to discuss Rhiana’s choice with a child? Extend the same kind of logic and say “The bully’s friend decided to forgive the bully for what the bully did. This is her choice, but mommy thinks that she should have waited until the bully really showed that he was never going to do it again.” I believe this is what Schroeder WOULD have thought, if she had done something different at UCLA. A wise interpretation with no political agenda, for the benefit of the child, with equal parts justice and compassion.
My issue with Chris Brown is that he has never come out and apologized or admitted that what he has done was wrong. He has just acted like an angry child throwing an extremely violent temper tantrum. He clearly still has anger issues that have not been resolved.
I think everyone would be more forgiving of him if he just admitted he was wrong and started donating to victims of domestic violence.
I just wrote a post about this Chris Brown did apologize, but the world wasn’t listening. I wish that he would speak with young males about what he has experienced and learned.
[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFmJGFxhfQM&w=420&h=315
And I think you bring up another problem Sammie. People like to get selective about what parts of a person we see. There are people who aren’t walking about this not just because its an issue that needs to be talked about but because they actively want to keep the worst parts of masculinity in the limelight.
For every Chris Brown that attacks someone there is a nameless (as far as mass media is concerned) cop, firefighter, military man, dad, and average Joe that does comendable work and is never acknowledged. Why? Because despite what people may say they don’t like to see and hear about good men or even men doing good acts.
Ehhh… yeah I don’t agree with you Danny. Chris Brown just threw another tantrum on his twitter account what… a week ago? So in light of the rest of his behavior, I would say his one apology is not consistent with the rest of his behavior. That’s not focusing on the “worst parts of masculinity”, but focusing on his general pattern of behavior. And I don’t understand the relation to masculinity either. I’m just talking about Chris Brown.
And the big difference between Chris Brown and your examples is not that he’s a bad guy, but because he is a celebrity as opposed to an average guy. I don’t think this is a gendered issue, as you seem to imply, but a celebrity issue. And I do hear about good men in news frequently, they’re just not celebrities, so it’s not as big of a deal. The media loves talking about what celebrities do wrong, otherwise why do you think we hear so much about Lindsay Lohan’s and Whitney Houston’s drug problems?
Ehhh… yeah I don’t agree with you Danny. Chris Brown just threw another tantrum on his twitter account what… a week ago? So in light of the rest of his behavior, I would say his one apology is not consistent with the rest of his behavior. That’s not focusing on the “worst parts of masculinity”, but focusing on his general pattern of behavior.
That apology was made long before that tantrum but as we see the trantrum got much more press. Its not a matter of consistency its a matter of choosing not to talk about the acts of merit as much as the screwups.
And the big difference between Chris Brown and your examples is not that he’s a bad guy, but because he is a celebrity as opposed to an average guy. I don’t think this is a gendered issue, as you seem to imply, but a celebrity issue.
But even among celebrities the screwups get more attention than the acts of merit. I wasn’t trying to say its a gendered issue but since the general flow of this post skewed towards men I only mentioned men when comparing celebrities with the nameless. But like I say among celebrities the screwups get more attention than the acts of merit for the most part.
Because despite what people may say they don’t like to see and hear about good men or even men doing good acts.
This applies to celebrities, men, and/or women. Like I said I just said men because this post is mostly talking about men.
Even among non celebrity men you can see the same pattern. For every man that makes for a high profile story for doing something good there are about 10 that make for a high profile story for doing something bad.
Ah, I see, I read a gendered view, because of your comment, “but because they actively want to keep the worst parts of masculinity in the limelight.” So I thought you meant this was a focus on bad masculine behavior.
The focus on bad behavior and depressing stuff and all of that is just the nature of news. News always focuses on the negative, happy news doesn’t sell. Plus, him issuing an apology is really the minimum of what he could do to be a decent human being. When people act how we expect decent humans to act, it’s not really newsworthy. When they act opposite to that, that’s when people pay attention.
And I do think there is more to the consistency thing than you think. If he had apologized and continued to act like a reformed person, I really doubt we would be talking about him right now. But because he threw tantrums, acted like an unrepentant, spoiled child, his consistent negative behavior really undermined his one moment of bare minimum decent human behavior. So yeah, I would find it difficult to focus on that moment because in light of the rest of his behavior, it seems that he didn’t mean it.
And I do think there is more to the consistency thing than you think. If he had apologized and continued to act like a reformed person, I really doubt we would be talking about him right now. But because he threw tantrums, acted like an unrepentant, spoiled child, his consistent negative behavior really undermined his one moment of bare minimum decent human behavior. So yeah, I would find it difficult to focus on that moment because in light of the rest of his behavior, it seems that he didn’t mean it.
But like I said that apology, however empty it turned out to be later on, was barely mentioned before. It would be one thing if the apology was mentioned and then when his current actions he got called on it. But no it was barely mentioned then nor is it being mentioned now.
I agree that his behavior betrays any attempt at apology that he made but the problem is if you paid attention to the media all you see is the bad behavior. In short we don’t get the whole picture.
Chris Brown’s post grammy tweets indicate that this video is still relevant: http://youtu.be/IFOZ3dcNucY
and Lupe is an amazing lyricist and your kids would benefit from listening to him regardless of your stance on Chris Brown.
Redemption and forgiveness is a very personal thing, so ultimately it is up to you to decide how much you will pay attention to the “bad” gifted person.
I don’t watch Woody Allan Movies. Picasso is dead, so he gets no personal vindication from my appreciation of his art. I think it is important to not FORGET he was brutal to women but it is not relevant since he is dead. Maybe I’ll watch Woody Allan movies after he’s dead. (and no there is not a vigilante or death to abusers subtext here)
I think the important conversation to be having about Chris Brown and abusers in general is about accountability. See above video.
I think the key is making sure people understand Rihanna’s stance on this.
You say:
Rihanna seems to have forgiven Chris Brown, why should I be different? But I keep asking myself what I’m telling my boys about masculinity when I say, “Oh hey, this guy tried to strangle a woman, but we sure do like him because he makes a great dance song”? Should I simply tell them that Chris Brown is a “bad man”, so we can’t listen to him, and try to switch them over to Lupe Fiasco?
Let your boys know that “Chris Brown assaulted her. That’s a bad thing regardless. Even if she has chosen to forgive him, move on, and work with him again that does not mean what he did to her was okay. It means that she has forgiven him.”
And I think it would also help to explain or show a contrast in which someone assaults a person like that and the victim actually choses not to forgive their assailant, just to show them that forgiveness isn’t automatic and that its not even guaranteed.
It comes down to choice. If you don’t want to listen to him music that’s fine because its your money. But I don’t think drilling someone with the belief, “He attacked someone so that means he a horrible person forever.” helps much more than drilling someone with, “He attacked someone but it wasn’t that bad.”
Add Morgan Freeman to the pervert list. He recently married his step-daughter, and there is a 45 year age gap between them! He’s like 73 and she’s 28. That’s a friends with benefits relationship. LOL.
Two consenting adults. Unorthodox? Yes. But otherwise not even remotely the same thing.
If that’s a crime, then both of them are guilty of the crime. She consented to marry him and he consented to marry her, so if it’s bad she is at least an accessory. She conspired to set up a 72-year-old man with a 28 year old woman….
I’m with 8ball and wellokaythen on this one, Michelle. The two of them could get married, divorced, married again…and enjoy having sex in a pool of chocolate…..and it still wouldn’t make either of them a pervert. Different, yes. Perverted, no.
haha that was perfect, Heather. And totally true.
I’m not sure “perverted” is really an insult in the first place, of course, but that’s for another discussion….
Prostitution can be argued as between two consenting adults too; so by that same argument, prostitution should be legal.
If we had no prostitution laws — social norms (and those wielding power) would dictate that prostitution is acceptable, and socially approved and good for society — unfortunately, the reality is that, this group already exists among us. Prostitution continues to be one of the highest rising criminal activity in the world.
Now of course there is no crime in marrying someone 45 years your junior (adult age)…LOL…simply, because there is no law. As long as a person doesn’t break the law that would send him to court, everything is fair game, right? Yes, I understand how the system is played
Here is the real issue: I know you can’t stop her, but honestly — Would you approve your daughter marrying someone 45 years her senior, on top that, it’s her step-father??? Yeah, because it happens everyday right? I would be questioning their sanity.
Perverted:
- deviating from what is considered moral or right or proper or good; “depraved criminals”; “a perverted sense of loyalty”; “the reprobate conduct of a gambling aristocrat”
Ah right well…I actually think prostitution should be legal. Yeah that’s right…I said it.
I wonder how much crime would surround prostitution if it had unions and was regulated by the state…also, think of the tax revenue. Instead of locking prostitutes and their customers up, what if we *gasp horror* made it so that they could do their jobs safely. (That was sarcastic, sorry). Personally I think making prostitution illegal not only perpetuates the myth that sex is bad, but it also perpetuates the myth that men are over-sexed randy a$$holes. We can point to the Johns and say “he’s committing a crime. He’s not a good person.” When really, paying for a prostitute doesn’t make you a bad person (so long as everyone involved is willing).
Whether you, personally, approve of an older man marrying his over-18 step-daughter, or whether you approve of prostitution, is a question of your own individual and cultural morals. But just because you don’t approve doesn’t mean that it’s inherently a bad thing. And just because you don’t approve doesn’t mean it should be illegal.
Um, yeah, I completely agree with Heather. Prostitution should be legal, it should be under control so prostitutes are protected. And you know what, they are performing some necessary services, so I don’t think they and their clients should be shamed or ridiculed.
And actually there are two legal brothels near Vegas I believe. And many other countries have legalized prostitution. I wonder how their rape and murder rate of sex workers are compared to places where prostitution is illegal.
The fact of the matter is that when celebrity women do this kind of thing, it barely makes a blip on the radar. You said yourself that the only thing you could come up with was Winona Ryder shoplifting… I wonder how many people are even aware of this?:
http://blogs.bet.com/celebrities/entertainment-spotlight/2009/12/24/mary-to-kendu/
The irony? She’s an advocate for Domestic Violence (against women only, I guess.)
Oh would that be a link to that Mary J Blige incident? That left a rather bad taste in my mouth because not only did she hit him but she also taunted him by saying, “What? You’re gonna hit me back? You gonna Chris Brown me?”
You’d think that a woman that is an advocate for DV would know better than to mock a victim like that.
Though interesting to note that it says Mary J. Blige came from an abusive background, which was true for Chris Brown too.
This is SUCH an example of how the world excuses violence by women significantly more than violence by men and it’s really, really sad. As are the examples posted by another commenter – Carmen Electra, etc. I haven’t looked into these, but I’m sure they’re true.
But, to my point, I have never heard of ANY of them aside from Naomi Campbell (who actually yelled at ME once, personally!). That shows how much the media is willing to throw a few “bad” men’s behavior up and show how “bad” men are, but NOT willing to do the same for women’s violence.
But no, I have trouble with equating shoplifting, etc with DV or with Woody Allen marrying a young woman whom he was living in the same house with when she was 17.
Not only was the (female) assailant instantly forgiven by all, but the (innocent male) victim was immediatly blamed by all:
“Mary J. Blige punched husband Kendu Isaacs in the face at her record release party at club M2 Tuesday night. The singer slugged Isaacs, drawing blood, after she thought he was flirting with a waitress. “She turned to him and was screaming, ‘You’re not going to ruin my night,’ ” our witness says. “They got up in each other’s faces before someone tried to separate them, at which point she shoved the guy aside, pulled back and popped [Isaacs] in the face.” The source said Blige, Isaacs and their entourage were whisked through a door to the attached club Pink, which was closed. Our witness relates, “She was yelling at him, ‘What are you gonna do, Chris Brown me?’ Four of her bodyguards and two of the club’s kept them apart.” Isaacs was kicked out. Blige went to the bathroom to fix her hair and makeup, but soon fled, creating an uncomfortable scene for partygoers Jay-Z, Beyoncé and Busta Rhymes. Her rep said only, “People lie and don’t know what they’re talking about.”
Some of you younger folks might not know once upon a time Mary J. used to be a lil’ gangsta. However, over the past ten years she has reinvented her once chaotic life. Blige is a survivor and has inspired so many women and men. Hopefully, the Chris Brown comment is not an indication of past abuse in Mary’s relationship with Kendu, who she has credited as someone who helped turn her life around. Let’s not forget — Mary J. Blige is still human and has always presented herself that way.”
Beating up one’s girlfriend is a serious moral failing, to put it mildly. You have every right to send a message by supporting some people and not others.
It’s very difficult, however, to be totally consistent. You won’t find any inhuman people you can look up to. Some human failings (not rape and murder, perhaps) have to be forgiven or else there is absolutely no one whom you could admire. You want to find any well-known prominent historical figures who were completely against slavery? Hard to do if you go back more than a few centuries. Want to find any wisdom among our hunter-gatherer ancestors? Well, there’s that whole infanticide thing that I just can’t get behind, so no love there.
Ultimately, it’s a question of what one considers unforgivable and what can be overlooked or balanced out by positive things. The only other alternative is to make real-life human beings into mythological characters like the flawed humans etched into Mt. Rushmore. That’s not really a good alternative.
A related question – what do you do when the information is allegations and rumors? Michael Jackson settled out of court to deal with child sexual abuse allegations. Does that mean his music is tainted, or is he close enough to innocent that he can be heroic now that he’s no longer alive?
DV is about an imbalance of power…if you were a boxing referee and you watched Chris Brown up against Rihanna, I think it would be an easy guess who would win…His anger seems ferocious…what was up with that chair thrown against the glass at a morning news program?
As a victim of DV, if you saw me (petite, young and unsuspecting female) against my ex (6’2″ and 200 lbs. and foaming at the mouth angry), I think you would have little doubt as to who won that fight….He put a hole through my wall by slamming a boom box into it…Isn’t that why fights are put into weight categories because of the obvious physical advantages?
Leia: “As a victim of DV, if you saw me (petite, young and unsuspecting female) against my ex (6’2″ and 200 lbs. and foaming at the mouth angry), I think you would have little doubt as to who won that fight….He put a hole through my wall by slamming a boom box into it…Isn’t that why fights are put into weight categories because of the obvious physical advantages?”
And what of the male victims who were harmed by their wives or ex’s through the use of weaponso r guns? What would you call them?
Eagle, respectfully, you display the typical ignorance about the dynamics of abuse. And to think The Burning Bed came out decades ago, and we, as a culture, are still ignorant.
The world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it. ~ Albert Einstein
Variant: The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing. ~ Albert Einstein
Source: Einstein’s tribute to Pablos Casals (30 March 1953), in Conversations with Casals (1957), by Josep Maria Corredor, translated from Conversations avec Pablo Casals : souvenirs et opinions d’un musicien (1955).
I suppose if you dug deep enough you would find dirt about some of your favorite actors and entertainers…What if you put hidden cameras (or TMZ) on them 24/7? What would you find out?
Michael Fassbender is one of the most handsome and interesting actors to come along…this is definitely his year…but there are also reports that he is an out of control drinker (ie., he was inebriated and inappropriate at the London premiere of “A Dangerous Method”) whose past girlfriend called for a restraining order against him….Many actors may be bipolar with or without substance issues…plus or minus other major personal issues….Acting is one way for them to let out their emotions (up or down) at least in a creative way….
Perhaps we regular folks can just hide our bad secrets better because the cameras and paparazzi are not always tailing us….
I have enjoyed Joanna Schroeder’s writing in the past, but I really have a hard time accepting this piece.
Joanna asks what statement society makes when it allows men like Chris Brown to rise in prominence again after committing a crime against a woman. I believe that the statement society is making is clear:
“We have the capacity to forgive, and we believe that man involved has the capacity to grow into someone better than he once was.”
Joanna, herself, seems to lack the capacity to forgive. She calls herself a hypocrite for listening to music by a man who committed a crime some twenty years ago. At best, she reaches for a imaginary line between “art and artist” in order to justify accepting some works of art by men who have committed crimes decades earlier.
And why? Because the victims happened to be women?
I have a hard time believing that the collective forgiveness of a man, by society, is somehow worse than the solitary cultivation of private hatred that apparently occurs within the minds of some individuals.
Why does anyone other than Rhianna even have a right to judge Chris Brown? Doesn’t that shift focus away from the victim, whose sole right it is to define her experience and the appropriate response? Who are any of us to tell Rhianna how she should respond, as a victim?
Moreover, what does it say about Joanna’s view of men? Are men forever trapped as the person they were at the time they committed a crime? Can no man ever improve significantly upon who or what he was in his late teens and early twenties? Is it really so hard to believe that men have every ability to become better individuals with experience and self reflection?
I am extremely concerned about he attitudes in this piece, and it is hard for me to believe that they are helpful to men.
I think this touches on a lot of really big questions. And I highly doubt the answers will be ones that anyone agrees on.
Honestly, I don’t think anyone is required to forgive anyone else, so yes, if you assault/beat/harm someone, people may not forgive you for a long time, if ever. It doesn’t matter if you did it when you were a teenager and were stupid, no one is required to forgive you. If you reform and are clearly a different person, then people may forgive you and trust you again, but no one is required to do so.
You can say that it is only the victim’s place to forgive, but I cannot agree. If I had a friend whose bf/gf beat him/her so their face looked like Rihanna’s, I would not be able to associate with or talk to that person ever again. I would not forgive that person, because they hurt someone I cared about, and because they have shown themselves to be someone who is untrustworthy and dangerous.
On a related note, you are making this a gendered case, but I don’t think it is meant to be written as such. The case which we are talking about is about male-on-female violence, but the focus is not on men or women, but on victim and abuser. And the vast majority of examples I can think of, whether in the news or my own life tend to be male-on-female domestic violence. It’s not a gender issue, it’s just that statistically, the easier examples to think of will end being male-on-female.
Artemis,
First off, I didn’t make this a gendered case, I was responding to Joanna’s piece, where she argues that gender is relevant. When you read a sentence like:
“But what I’m really wondering is what our society is saying about men by accepting these behaviors.”
It is very hard to believe that Joanna is not making a gendered statement. Her speculation was not about what happens to those who commit acts of violence, but specifically what happens when a man commits an act of violence.
Second, I don’t want to be overly judgmental, but please, think hard about what you have written: are any of us better off in a world where forgiveness is impossible? How are most big-picture style conflicts ever going to be resolved if it is acceptable to say “Someone did X and that warrants not forgiving them, ever.”?
It is certainly your right to hold whatever opinions you hold. But that doesn’t mean those opinions are beneficial to society or even to yourself. The Mayo Clinic found, years ago, that people who forgive are generally happier and less prone to stress-related illnesses. Societies that can forgive are better able to find effective and solutions to their problems, especially those involving conflict resolution.
Is any negative emotion really worth setting aside obvious benefits? Or put differently, shouldn’t we try and let out rational minds control our irrational emotions?
When I read this, ““But what I’m really wondering is what our society is saying about men by accepting these behaviors.”” My first thought was that Joanna was irritated/curious/etc at society (which to me in this case includes corporate music industry, media monoliths etc…the money trail) for casting men in general in a worse light, and highlight their behavior while also encouraging consumption of their product.
Which I think means that Joanna is appalled at this. I’m appalled that the bottom line of money is so powerful that Chris Brown ever got another contract. Or that Naomi Campbell ever got another gig. Or that Lindsey Lohan wasn’t immediately taken out of films and helped to get better and so forth on both sides of the gender spectrum.
My take.
Forgiveness? Fine and dandy, but why should a narcissist/liar/abuser/thief no matter the gender get to keep being an asshole? Because they have so much talent? No, because they make someone money. There are loads of abusive artists in the world, of every gender, sexual orientation and race.
If it were me doing any of those things, no one would care, and I might wind up in jail or rehab (and should so wind up there.) The famous and productive human widget that is part of the machine gets loads of get out of society’s jail free cards.
That’s what’s appalling to me. The industry doesn’t care about Chris Brown or Lindsey Lohan or anyone like that so long as they are profitable.
Julie,
You are inappropriately reading a personality onto these people that you cannot possibly know about.
Do you really know Chris Brown? Personally? And if the answer is no, how could you possibly know that he is a narcissist/liar/thief?
Your use of the word abuser is very telling: you are unwilling to forgive no matter what. In your mind a single mistake condemns someone forever.
It is difficult for me to believe that this is a productive attitude.
You have misread my post.
I’m not actually speaking directly about Chris Brown here “Fine and dandy, but why should a narcissist/liar/abuser/thief no matter the gender get to keep being an asshole? Because they have so much talent? No, because they make someone money. There are loads of abusive artists in the world, of every gender, sexual orientation and race”
I’m speaking generally about any person that has talent, that an industry may want to make money on, that shows behaviors that cause offense-such as Chris Brown, such as LIndsey Lohan, such as Naomi Campbell and more. Offense could mean abuse, or lying, or stealing.
I’m positing that the reason the bad behavior (of whatever kind) is tolerated has less to do with sending a message about masculinity and more that the industry wants to make money off the artist as long as possible.
As to Chris Brown in particular.
It’s not really my job to forgive Chris Brown or anyone like him. He didn’t beat me. He beat Rhianna. Do I consider his beating of Rhianna abuse? Yeah, I do. I would consider anyone beating up anyone that they were in a relationship with (no matter gender dynamics) abusive. But he’s not a part of my life in any way (save posts like this) so I don’t have any claim on forgiving him. My judgement either way is meaningless to him.
I don’t have to buy music from him and support the industry that is promoting him (and also support him) if I don’t want to, but if I do, I”m not sure it’s implicit that I “forgive him.”
My not buying his music will have little effect on his life or how he decides to live it. It won’t have much impact on Rhianna and the choices she makes. My forgiveness means nothing to them, it would only mean something to me in terms of my ethics and values.
I don’t like his music much anyway, and I think he’s in an impossible situation in terms of the relative control the industry probably has over him, but I do think anyone getting in that much of a fight with another person probably needs to take a hard look at why violence was a part of their relationship.
I love music and art and it always causes me distress when I find out someone whose work I admire holds values at a 180 to mine, or when I find out they’ve done something I find terrible. I can’t really watch Lindsey Lohan movies for instance because I feel that the industry helped turn her into the hot mess she is right now, and watching her earlier work makes me sad. Knowing that women have abused their staff or lovers, or that men whose work I admire (Gary Sinese) vote at a 180 from me, or let’s say someone I admired was staunchly against gay marriage in CA and part of Prop 8…it colors my pleasure of their work.
Should it? I don’t know. The work is still valuable and good and worthy. But my personal experience and my ethics about not putting money into places I disagree with pops up and makes it harder to enjoy.
I suppose that’s something lots of people experiences. I hear the phrase Hate The Sin, Love The Sinner in my head right now. But when the art is connected to money and people and industries are getting rich off of behavior I don’t believe in, I feel less like participating.
I’m not sure forgiveness has any relevance though. Forgiving Chris Brown is the role of the people closest to him, the people he directly affected. Not mine.
Mike, I just commented to Eagle, above. The same applied to your mindset too – that you display our culture’s typical ignorance about the dynamics of abuse, and what actually works to help bring about lasting change for the better.
Why should we care? Einstein touches on why:
The world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it. ~ Albert Einstein
Variant: The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing. ~ Albert Einstein
Source: Einstein’s tribute to Pablos Casals (30 March 1953), in Conversations with Casals (1957), by Josep Maria Corredor, translated from Conversations avec Pablo Casals : souvenirs et opinions d’un musicien (1955).
Mike, abusers always use the manipulation technique of blame shifting responsibility for their own initial bad behaviors onto their victims with “She’s not forgiving me! See, now I’m the victim of unforgiveness!!”
Forgiveness without change for the better -> enabling = an even worse evil, according to Einstein.
Elie Wiesel, Martin Luther King Jr., Edmund Burke, Desmond Tutu, Gandhi, the Dalai Lama, and other have voiced similar stances. (In other words, if you won’t listen to Joanna, Juile Gillis, and the others here, whose comments ring with truth, then maybe you’ll listen to these men.)
“are any of us better off in a world where forgiveness is impossible? How are most big-picture style conflicts ever going to be resolved if it is acceptable to say “Someone did X and that warrants not forgiving them, ever.”?”
I’m not saying forgiveness is impossible. If a person honestly changes their life around and makes amends and really proves they are a different person, then their chances of being forgiven have increased. But it can’t be expected. And if they haven’t reformed at all, then I would would doubt anyone would forgive them. Why, if they are the same horrible person?
And really? Aren’t some crimes unforgivable? Like genocide? Everyone has their own limit to forgiveness, and some actions are less forgivable to people than others.
Honestly, I forgive many people. But I’m not going to forgive my boyfriend’s father for routinely abusing his mother, because he still does it, and I have seen how much it hurts someone I love and care about and want to protect from anything bad. And there is my awkwardly personal story about why I don’t think it’s fair to criticize why some people are not going to forgive domestic violence.
Artemis,
Obviously, if someone does not wish to change, and has not changed, then it’s easy to see why you would not want to forgive.
But again, that implies all kinds of information that cannot possibly be available here. We have no evidence before us that Chris Brown has not changed. Claims to the contrary are mere projection, unless they are made by someone with deep personal knowledge of who Chris Brown truly is. It is important to recognize this.
Wow, that’s quite the presumption, that I lack the ability to forgive.
First, I believe I do have quite a capacity to forgive. I have many, many instances in my personal life of forgiving both men and women, truly forgiving them. However, being repentant is a big part of that forgiveness. I mean truly asking for forgiveness.
We see celebrities ask for real forgiveness from the public quite often, and politicians. For politicians, usually it means their career is over, for entertainers, most crimes seem to just raise their profile, unless the H-wood industry gets the idea that they’re impossible to work with. Most of the fancy H-wood people I know won’t work with Lindsay Lohan, for instance, and no one would bank on Charlie Sheen. But if either got clean and showed a real stability and presence of mind, they would be forgiven the way the super sexy Robert Downey Jr has been. I mean, we forget that he was the biggest trainwreck in town, but he really was. Now we love him, he’s incredibly stable and well-loved.
I think an example in my personal life — and the greatest motivator in me distancing myself from feminism on the Internet — has bee in the case of my personal, dear and trusted friend Hugo Schwyzer. You all know how he and Tom melted down, the GMP story, it doesn’t need to be rehashed.
But what you may not know is the absolute incineration of his career at the hands of angry mobs of feminists acting like bratty children attempting to ruin his life. This was a man who behaved terribly toward women. You can read his work here on GMP and hear from his own mouth about his mistakes.
But this man changed his entire life from the inside out. You may disagree with his politics, his feminism, the way he sees men, whatever it is, but the man has made the best amends you can expect from a person for his mistakes. He’s shown immense recognition of how he’s hurt others before 1997. Our own Tom Matlack has made major mistakes, and he has done the same thing. People have forgiven them both (except the Internet radfems who somehow hate both at the same time) because of the growth they’ve made as humans.
When I see that from Chris Brown, or Roman Polanski or Woody Allen, my feelings may change. Same for Naomi Campbell or any other violent female. But so far, nothing. An apology your publicist forces you to make is obvious to all as ingenuine.
And this isn’t about the fact that they’re MEN aside from the fact that I wonder what men think about these representations of masculinity.
I would be horrified, and am horrified, when the media puts up with and even seems to be proud of, horrible behavior by women. I’m just not going to walk into the GMP and say, “You men should be ashamed of these men!” Instead, I openly and genuinely admit to being a hypocrite in my attempts to separate art from artist, and I very genuinely ask you guys this question:
Do you think these men, who are still very famous, are damaging the way society as a whole sees men and masculinity?
“First, I believe I do have quite a capacity to forgive.”
I believe that you do, maybe more than most people. I want to ask if you have been able to forgive one particular person. For once, I promise you, I have no agenda. Have you been able to forgive Hugo Schwyzer?
Schwyzer caused great individual harm to a small number of women, then became a born again feminist. Many women believe (as I do) that although Schwyzer honestly repents on an intellectual level, emotionally he cannot suppress an overpowering desire to hurt women. I suspect that this need to hurt has caused him to hate himself, and this in turn motivated Schwyzer to cause great collective harm to men, boys, and fathers. Instead of seeing himself as “broken”, he projects his defects onto all men. He then pronounces judgement on himself, by proxy.
I don’t actually care about Schwyzer, and maybe my analysis of him is all wrong. However, he is the mirror image of someone close to me who is doing exactly the same thing (from the opposite political side). Apologies that are sincere, but only skin deep, combined with an seemingly hysterical need to pronounce judgement on herself, using other women as proxies. It is all very sad to me.
If you don’t want to answer, I understand (you would be helping an MRA, after all
) If you prefer to send a private answer, you can e-mail me at (anthony.zarat@hotmail.com). I think the question is pertient because there are many people who feel a desire to harm. Some of these people do everything that is humanly possible to reform — but inevitably come up short. Wickedness is simply in some people’s nature. They can change their actions, but not who they are.
Either way, thanks.
Yes, I have 100% forgiven Hugo, as I said in the comment above yours.
No part of me ever questioned whether I would. Maybe it’s easier for me because we’re close friends in real life—and there is a distinction there because not ONE person who is rallying against him from the feminist community actually *knows him* in real life. Not a student, not a colleague, not a former friend. Not a one.
Because despite Hugo being imperfect (and he is), he is very obviously a different man. Anyone who’s battled major addiction will tell you that the things they do while using to that degree are NOT who they are. And Hugo understands that not only did he have to stop using, he had to change from the inside out.
People DO have great capacity to change. They really do. As I said, Robert Downey Jr is one great example of this in the media. There are many more.
And I would love to help an MRA – I have nothing against MRAs. I have something against misogynists who rally under the MRA platform in order to spread a message of hate. But the MRM is not about spreading a message of hate any more than the feminist movement is.
I don’t believe Hugo’s apologies are skin deep. In fact, I’d say with everything I can know, that his apologies are incredibly profound. I don’t know about whether the person you know, whom you think is like Hugo, is making such profound changes to every aspect of his/her life, but I would compel you to forgive that person and open your heart.
What’s the worst that can happen? That person hurts you again? So what, so you’ve done it before you can survive it again. It’s worth it in the end to believe in the goodness of humanity.
Joanna,
There is no way you could possibly know the truth about how changed (or not) Chris Brown is. You are holding him to an impossible standard.
Hugo Schwyzer is willing to live openly on the internet, posting endless details of his life. Just because someone else has not done that does not mean they are unchanged.
I strongly suspect that you are demanding that Chris Brown (or Woody Allen, or whomever) act as Hugo Schwyzer did because you do not actually want to forgive these people. You always want there to be something more they could do, short of dedicating their entire life to penance. My suspicion is based on your own admission of decades-long grudge holding against individuals you cannot possibly know personally. You have no idea what their actual personal lives look like, and so you project an image of non-penitence to sustain your own belief structure literally across decades.
I do not agree with this sort of behavior.
You ask if men like Chris Brown are damaging to masculinity, but I already answered this in my first comment: I believe a refusal to forgive men who commit these acts is far more damaging to men and masculinity than the acts are themselves.
But are they actually asking for forgiveness?
Do they actually want it? And are there people you do NOT forgive?
I really don’t know whether I forgive them or not, but I guess it would be more accurate to say I get skeeved by the whole thing.
I’m genuinely perplexed about where to draw the line between art and artist.
How about Roman Polanski?
No one would be more surprised than Woody Allen to discover that he’s become the embodiment of masculinity. I’m not sure there are many American men who are modeling their masculinity on the life of Woody Allen. If he’s a bad influence, how big of an influence is he, really?
This is a good point, but I think he is an influence upon a completely different audience than Chris Brown. That’s why I picked them! Could they be more different, really? And their “crimes” are different (quotes because I realize that Allen didn’t commit a crime, at least none that anyone’s proven), vastly.
Although they may not be modeling their masculinity after him, there are a lot of quirky artists and young filmmakers who do look up to him. Living in LA I probably see more than your usual bear.
Great piece, but I feel like the world suffers much more potential harm from people supporting Chris Brown than supporting Picasso or Woody. The bigger he gets and the less of a price he pays for his actions, the more it says to the world, “It’s totally cool if you beat a woman. As long as you look good on stage, you’re allowed to be a monster off-stage.
I think there’s a separation between Picasso’s art and his crime that makes it ok to still patronize his art, somehow. It’s not like his paintings are about beating up women, but with Chris Brown, his songs ARE about sex and his bravado, and perhaps about even sexual aggression. So there’s an immediate correlation between the “art” he’s creating and his real-world behavior. He portrays a charming, cocky Casanova onstage, and unsurprisingly, he’s a self-absorbed womanizer off-stage. And it’s that same charming persona as he’s smiling with his shirt unbuttoned that leads to reactions like these 25 women who tweeted disturbing claims of “He can beat me all he wants.”
http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/horrible-reactions-to-chris-brown-at-the-grammys
By taking your kids to see Picasso’s art, you’re simply supporting his artistic vision, not his actions as a person. But when you’re buying Chris Brown’s album or seeing his show and helping him making more money and getting more adoration, you’re directly fueling the fire of his bravado. You’re inflating his confidence and sense of entitlement, the same things that leads him to think he can do whatever he wants to whomever he wants. This approval gives him the exaggerated sense of importance that leads him to beat a woman, or just explode in anger whenever he wants. Every time you buy his music, you’re patting him on the back, saying, “How cool you look is more important that how you act.”
I’m not totally sure that I agree with all of this, but I don’t patently disagree either.
I will say this: I’ve been convinced by this discussion to start pushing more Lupe Fiasco on the kids and removing “Forever” from the iTunes.
But YES that those women/girls tweeting that he can beat them all he wants… I mean that HAS TO mean something about damage being done to our society.
But I honestly didn’t want to address the damage being done to women by these men, as I said in the first paragraph, hundreds if not thousands of people are writing those pieces.
I really wanted to focus this piece on how the elevation of guys like this damages men and the way society sees masculinity.
I want to challenge the notion that society is “accepting” Chris Brown’s behavior.
First, define “society.” I’ve forgotten the details of his vicious assault and attendant legal problems, but from what I remember he was charged and acquitted, or he got a light sentence. That doesn’t mean “society” accepted his behavior – it just means the court didn’t find him guilty, or guilty enough.
Rihanna forgave him, but she isn’t “society,” either – she’s just one woman who is not very emotionally intelligent, or may be suffering from the cycle of abuse.
You certainly don’t accept his behavior.
I don’t either. I think he’s a psychopathic little shit, and I couldn’t name one of his songs.
Some women still love him, but some wimminz iz stoopid.
A lot of other women think he’s disgusting.
And still other members of society would hate him and really want to kill him based merely on his race.
So can we really say “society” accepts him? It seems to me he didn’t get the punishment a lot of people, including me, thought he deserved. Does that equal acceptence?
I think the reason Chris Brown is described as being “accepted” by society is probably because he was only banned from the Grammys for 3 years, people who criticized him (Jay-Z I believe), later got so much flak that they turned around and apologized, and his music still sells wildly. I think the whole Grammy’s issue was the tipping point.
That does seem to have triggered this counter movement of “Why are some people okay with Chris Brown?!”
“society” didn’t forgive Brown. The folks who consume his work just don’t care. Fun comes first.
When my son was in high school, a senior, he was all conference football, bball and tennis, captain and MVP of the latter two. I told him repeatedly that good hand-eye coordination means…good hand-eye coordination. Takes something else to be a good person and that refers to the pros as well. He’s never been a jocksniffer or a rabid fan of any one guy, which is gratifying.
What does it mean to “forgive”? Some people won’t be satisfied with your forgiving until you turn around, bend over, and request another. The guy who ran the Jewish Information Center in Vienna–Simon Wiesenthal–was asked whether he could forgive the Nazis and would stop hunting them. His response was that he was not a victim and only victims can forgive. He was not authorized to forgive for somebody else. Rihanna can forgive Brown, or figure her future is better if she gets headlines no matter the cause than if she gets no ink at all. That’s her business. Those of us who think Brown is a loathesome soft chancre on the anus of a syphilytic skunk are perfectly free to continue to think so.
Easy for me to say. I’d never heard of him, didn’t know he was a musician–is he?–nor care. Ditto her.
As to Picasso, my wife and I were chaperoning students in Spain and one of the stops was the Reina Sofia in Madrid, the modern art museum. One of the kids got sick to her stomach–not surprising, I was getting queasy myself–so I volunteered to take her outside to a garden. There, among the flowers and shrubs under the sky of Castile, we were both able to recover our equilibrium. Sheesh. That place. The Prado, with lots of fat little angels, was infinitely better. So Poser Picasso doesn’t cause me any conundra, either.
That said, and I feel better for having said it, if an artist I like screws up, I quit his work. Just quit. That’s why I go to so few movies. I have to live with myself.
As I said, I had no idea who Brown was, nor anything about his work. Is it so good that quitting it altogether is insupportable? Hell. Go on youtube and look up Mille Regretz or Paula Bar-Giese “Greensleeves” There’s your love song.
I know this is an informal anecdote, but I live in LA and know /have worked with a ton of celebrities and I can tell you that they all say that almost no stories that show up in mainstream media are false. If you’re not up to shit, there’s nothing to tell. The Enquirer and ilk will say crazy stuff, but if you’re hearing it On a network, E, even TMZ, it’s probably true.
If Chris Brown had changed, we’d know it.
TMZ tells stories not non-stories. Do they follow him around and report on him not beating up girls? But, I admit that I haven’t kept up. Did he beat someone else up recently?
Jay-Z caught flak for giving Chris Brown a hard time? (Conjectures Artemis, above.)
Now that is upside down. Yes, we are living Through the Looking Glass, where right is wrong and wrong is right.
Thank you, Joanna for this article and the follow up discussion. I agree with you. Can no longer admire those who turn out to be abusers. (Abuse takes many forms, besides physical abuse.)
[How 'bout Newt? Even if I liked his command of history, I will never get over his abandoning his first wife for his adultery partner when she was suffering with cancer...and then he did the same thing to wife #2 - the former adultery partner. He cries at the mention of his mother, and uses the pity ploy perfectly (designed to pull on our empathy strings, and get us to be fooled about his true core nature). We have all sorts of charming sociopaths in high up places....because we put them there. I would like to see this change.]
I’m obviously coming in late on this one, so rather than addressing the various replies, I’ll just say this. We (Americans) pay way too much attention to people in Hollyweird. actors, actresses, singers, dancers as well as sports stars. We listen to their political views, their moraless lives and look at them as though they’re some kind of gods and similar to the author, I stopped watching, buying contributing to the wealth of many of these “gods.” So, in some ways I’m glad that they’re put out there for all to see in that in my own little world, I can opt out of patronizing them.
Because these fools want to be fools in public, they sure as heck should not and represent any role for any gender. They all live in worlds far different than the average person. Whitney Houstin was placed on a pedestal and I have no clue as to why. Yes, she made some beautiful music but she was also paid for that music. The benefit of her talent was rewarded in the work she lived. Not mine.
Although these stars don’t represent a gender, a block of people (other than their own) they do influence society in very negative ways.
DV, very bad thing all around. I’d be curious as to how all of you feel about situations where these gods and goddesses have affairs outside their domestic partnerships and the two get back together. Most of the time we hear about the guy stepping out on her, should she go back to him?
It’s my opinion that anyone caught or convicted of being a pedophile should be put to death without further appeal. Woody Allen certainly falls into that category.