When it comes to idealizing one body type over another, Danny says, “Screw swinging the pendulum to the other side! It’s time to tear that damn pendulum down!”
This picture (above) has been making its rounds on the internet for several months now and I have say that this is a sign that some people may be taking the idea of being fat doesn’t make you unattractive a bit too far. On top of that, there seems to be a bit of a thing going on around here the last few days where everyone is chiming in on what they find attractive. All of this makes me feel a need to talk about what makes a woman attractive.
As a person that finds women attractive, I don’t like the idea that something is wrong with finding skinny women attractive any more than the idea that something is wrong with finding fat women attractive. If you look throughout the ages the ideas of what body type of women is the established norm of what is attractive have changed. And just like any established norm those who do not match that ideal are ostracized and left on the fringes.
That’s not a good place to be and takes me to what I find a bit wrong with the photo up above.
The photo asks, “When did this (images of skinny women) become hotter than this (images of not so skinny women)?”. I get a tone from that that seems to say that not so skinny women should be the norm of attractiveness over skinny women. This thought only pushes the pendulum to the other direction.
The problem with thinking that skinny women are the established norm for attractiveness isn’t that women who are not skinny are left on the out of being considered attractive. The problem is that there is an established norm for attractiveness.
When I look at women I’m not thinking, “Oh this woman is _____ so she can’t be attractive.” Yes there are times when I think that a women is not attractive in my own opinion but that doesn’t mean that that woman is objectively unattractive. Over the years I’ve found a wide variety of women to be attractive ranging from what others would say, “Put the fork down and back away from the table!” to “You need some beans and cornbread!” (that being a Southern way of saying, “you need some meat on your bones”).
But at the end of the day they are just my opinions. I have my opinion of what is attractive just like anyone else but when dealing with established norms it becomes bigger than just what an individual person finds attractive.
When something becomes the established norm you will have a division where people are either part of the “in group” or “out group”. What happens is that the opinions of the in group become the truth rather than just their truth. In other words its cool because the cool kids said it is.
The solution to this is not to just replace one body type with another as the norm but to get rid of the very idea that there should be, or needs to be, a norm in the first place.
What do you think? Is there such a thing as an objectively attractive person? Or should we try to get rid of the society norms that tell us what makes a person hot?
For more on the debate about whether one “type” is hotter than another, read these articles and join in on the conversation:
How We Talk About What Turns Us On by Justin Cascio
In Praise of Small Breasted Women by Mark Radcliffe
In Praise of Large Breasted Women by Josh Bowman
In Praise and Appreciation of Women by Collin Slattery
In Praise of Jewish Men by Laura Bailey
I completely agree. I was very annoyed when I saw this thing going around. Men have a variety of interests and tastes when it comes to what is attractive, and this obsession with “redefining the ideal” seems to be set on insisting that thin women are unattractive and that men who are interested in thin women are inherently shallow. Let’s break the pendulum.
Also, Web, you are absolutely right!
Of course, you know what the problem with all this is, right? It has little to do with what, specifically, men find attractive. We all have varying interests. The primary problem, which floats around beneath the radar, is that we attach so much of our respect for women to their attractiveness. No one would dispute the importance of Bill Gates, despite his relative unattractiveness. Same with almost any member of congress. But the moment a woman is in such a position, everyone goes nuts about her being “too big” or not attractive enough in some way. Umm…who cares?? I still… Read more »
Hi Danny, thanks for the article.
By listening to others and others telling us what is hot does a disservice to both men and women, whether gay, straight, transgender et al. It’s a challenging one because media is always giving us these stories on who’s hot and who’s not.
I know when someone is “hot” for me and I don’t need anyone to tell me. My body reacts in a very simple way, it gets “turned on”.
Even as a woman, I find most of the bottom row women too heavy. Keira has a lot of muscle on that small frame! I think being lean and strong is a lot more attractive than having curves due to excess body fat.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. We are all attracted to different people. Some women are petite and naturally thin. Other women are either very curvy or have a large frame. All body types should be considered attractive.
I like the idea of getting rid of an established norm as to physical attractiveness, but I think that notion has some major roadblocks. One of the biggest is the dirty, little secret that not all romantic relationships are based on agape-type love, or a deep, intimate connection with one’s partner’s true, inner self. No, a heck of a lot of attraction is predicated on social factors. Namely, we humans tend to want to establish our social status by being seen to possess something that everybody else wants. Conversely, we tend to want what we see that other people want.… Read more »
This post is brilliant. Totally on the money.
For the record, out of that picture, I find Keira and Elizabeth to be the most attractive physically. That’s just my own personal opinion and all others are just as valid.
Matt
Keira and Bettie got it going on in that pic. That’s my word.
So, I think I know who Keira is (I mean, I don’t know if I’ve seen any of her movies, but I recognize the name – misspelled as it is) but who are the other three in the top row? And who is “Shirley” in the bottom row?
I think these are right…
Left to right,top: Heidi Klum, Nicole Richie, Keira Knightly, Kirsten Dunst
Left to right, bottom: Bettie Page, Shirley Temple, Elizabeth Taylor, and Marilyn Monroe
”Pretty power” is not a power possessed…. it is a power given 🙂
So is a lot of so called male privilege that people go on about. But that doesn’t stop people from condemning the use of it and condemning the people who use it.
I quite like the general idea of this text and can only agree that attractiveness is much more then only one specific bodytype. Or hair color, size of breats or whatever. But as nice as it would be to have no “norms” at all, it also is a naive idea. There always will be some kind of “ideal XYZ” or bodytype. And it will change. I think there are 2 more “realistic” approaches to the topic: 1. While there always might be some kind of norm, it is important to stretch the point that no norm is ever the ONLY… Read more »
Who’s says the 4 woman at the top of photo aren’t healthy ?
The only one who’s had possible problems with her weight is Nicole Richie.
Oh FFS. Those women in the picture are ALL thin. And ALL beautiful.
See, this is why I so love this site. It takes everything I’ve been thinking and lays it out in front of me, giving me a page to link to. I’m going to say right off the bat I have a preference towards thinner women. Does that automatically exclude everyone else? Not necessarily. But you can’t be attracted (or attractive) to everyone. And I’m sick of my preference being demonized. I mean…I’m a thin guy. does it not make sense for me to prefer my own body type? At least it’s not hypocritical. I think it’s a misunderstanding as well.… Read more »
(forgot to follow via email)
See, this is why I so love this site. It takes everything I’ve been thinking and lays it out in front of me, giving me a page to link to.
Thanks for the kind words.
@soullite You can have different type of figures being shown and still have a norm. Christina Hendricks is where the buck stops, curvy without being too thick Curvy doesn’t depend on thickness, A woman can be curvy without putting on weight. @VolitionSpark Have you seen Kelly Osbourne lately ? So men who don’t find your sister attractive are “disgusting” ? who are you to tell men what they should be attracted to. @JoAnne Fake Beauty ? lol that’s a good one. Men want to be with a woman they find physically attractive, if a woman can’t understand that can of… Read more »
William, there is nothing wrong with men wanting to be with women that they find physically attractive. Some men like thin women while others like more full figured ones. There is nothing wrong with that. All women should be respected.
OK then why did you use the term “fake beauty” ?, where’s the respect in that ?
None of the women on the bottom row are fat…and Marilyn Monroe is the only one in those pictures that even looks “not-so-skinny.” I know thats not the point but it just bothered me.
I found that disturbing too Julia. I noticed that I got a lot of two things when I was dangerously anorexic: attention from weirdos, and concern from healthy guys. I think it’s a weird fetish. I met some go-go dancers who told me that there’s a niche for extremely skinny girls. I don’t think it’s a healthy attraction at all. Women as thin as the ones in this picture cannot produce the hormones necessary to really enjoy sex. I don’t think men realize that.
JoAnne I agree. I am simply stating how I feel about being judged this way SPECIFICALLY. Men dictate what women should look like ONLY because women don’t want to be lonely. And I know women who are lonely because they don’t look like the “standard”. I also know women who are stupid, mean, unaccomplished, loud, cruel, and any other negative thing I could think to say about them but who have men only because say they are very short or very thin or many other superficial things I could name. This is what REALLY makes me angry. I have a… Read more »
Volition, I agree with everything that you say. I have also known women who were considered beautiful by men’s standards. They were also cruel and hateful women. I am sorry to hear about your sister. She sounds like a beautiful and intelligent woman. I hope some man will come along and notice her for her beauty. There are good men out there who can get past fake beauty.
I swear that there are men out there who would definitely be into that. Tell her not to let a couple of duds blind her from the studs! We all have varying tastes, nothing wrong with that. I know some women who will never be skinny by model standards, women who are bigger than any of the ‘plus’ size models that are becoming the newest fad, and they are GORGEOUS and they know how to be sexy with it. Women simply need to OWN it. Not all men are into bigger or skinny women. Tastes vary, always have, always will!… Read more »
I’m not super model by any stretch of the imagination. I have managed to find partners over the years and except for my more hypersexual years the line of genuine potential partners have become few and far between at times. I can’t even count how many times I’ve heard, “I’d love to date you but I’m not sure what my friends would think about me dating someone like you because I only date hot chicks.” Or “I never thought I’d settle for a girl like you.” And yeah these are people with crappy filters in general but it kind of… Read more »
Yes peer pressure can sometimes play a part in it, but alot of people are too quick to use that as the “go-to” excuse as to why certain woman aren’t seen as attractive.
A body type becomes the norm because it’s what a large number of men find attractive.
This body type is then shown in magazines, tv and movies.
You don’t have to accept it but know that there’ll always be one.
Then explain why the women in p0rn look the way they do…
Clearly you haven’t seen all of the variations of porn out there! There is a TON of BBW type stuff!
I agree there are all types of porn out there. There is something for everyone!
That’s kind of my point. More specifically, the type of woman dominant in p0rn is a lot thicker than the dominant type in magazines or TV. Christina Hendricks is kind of thick, but you can’t get heavier on TV and still be treated as attractive (ask Sarah Rue). And she’s nowhere near what you get at the outside-edge of even mainstream p0rn.
What I will say to all the women out there is to find someone who loves you. That may not be a large pool of men, but even if its only about 4, go out and find one of those four. By the way, I found out already that many of the reasons for the lust for tall skinny women or short skinny women have to do with sex and the insane fears of women being “too large” or of those of us with breasts or hips getting fat. Wow. Women should ignore all of the “what you should look… Read more »
It shouldn’t matter whether a woman is thin, heavy or somewhere in between. We need to stop the big girl/skinny girl wars. It is so damaging to women. All shapes and sizes should be acceptable. Why are we still letting men dictate what is attractive? This is the year 2012. I feel it is acceptable for men to be attracted to a certain type of woman. All women need to be respected.
Why are we still letting men dictate what is attractive?
You say that like men are somehow maintaining this war all on our own. Unless the women that have asked me, “How in the world can you find her attractive?” throughout the years were just figaments of my imagination.
Danny, I agree that there are women who are critical of other women. I have known some catty girls myself. Not all men are hung up on superficial beauty. Our society is still ruled by men. They are still the main source of objectifying women.
Objectification or Body Policing in general? I’m mainly talking body policing in general and in that I’m not entirely convinced that men are the main source. And I especially don’t think its related to the few men that rule society.
JoAnne, I’m sorry but what you’re saying just plain isn’t true. Please look beyond Radical Feminism and recognize that women have real agency in the world. Women don’t have to buy fashion magazines: they choose to. This cannot be explained through male “objectification” because if a product is not desired by its primary consumers, it fails and the company goes out of business. This happens every day to dozens of companies and untold hundreds of products. It might be easy to say “Oh men run everything, it must be their fault!” but this simply ignores millions of choices made by… Read more »
“They are still the main source of objectifying women.”
Isn’t it convenient to blame the men? Ever read women’s magazines recently? Most stuff I hear about a woman’s looks in a critical way comes from women’s lips, even worse than the guys get. I think women really need to take some responsibility in their role towards these issues.
There is a difference between treating someone with respect and being attracted to them. Everyone is owed a certain basic human level of respect – not worship, or admiration, but simple respect. Nobody is owed attraction. Men will always determine what’s attractive in a woman, and women will always determine what’s attractive in men – that’s just zoology.
Attraction is not objectification. You conflate the two to too great a degree.
Men will always determine what’s attractive in a woman, and women will always determine what’s attractive in men – that’s just zoology. Well, not entirely. Our norms are heavily shaped by culture, and shifting attitudes on what is considered attractive as well as differences in those attitudes across time and space suggest the cultural component may play a very heavy hand indeed. I recall one argument that had gained some currency suggesting that it was a question of what was “attainable.” A couple centuries hence it was supposedly more difficult (read: expensive) to be plump, and therefore women who exhibited… Read more »
Most of the women considered beautiful are either the very skinny, adolescent/androgynous/ectomorphic build (Giselle Bundchen, Keira Knightly, Angelina Jolie) or the truly adolescent, tiny girl look (Mila Kunis, Kourtney Kardashian, Jessica Alba, etc.) I think back on the women I saw when I was very young, like Lynda Carter, Angie Dickinson, Jayne Kennedy, Mariel Hemingway….these women would never be stars today. They did look like women to me. Now you must look like an adolescent girl for the rest of your life and when you try it, people get mad (people were upset with Angelina Jolie, for instance, about her… Read more »
Christina Hendricks, Kate Winslet, Queen Latifah, Katherine Heigl are some who either don’t fit the teenage look or have larger bodies (not just fat, but muscle, bone structure, shape, etc). There are plenty of actresses that don’t have the adolescent look, probably far more than I can name.
My body type requires many adjectives. Technically I am a mesomorph, which means I have a heavier skeleton and a bit more muscle. But I am heavy chested and have been since I was 9. I wear a size 6, not the 0 or 4 required to be stunning. I am neither tall or short (5′ 6″) I am in very good shape, with fairly low body fat..I run, mountaineer, etc. I am bothered that I could be considered “fat” by people just because I am not extraordinarily thin. And I am bothered that to be considered beautiful, I would… Read more »
Beautiful to whom though? Chances are there are probably quite a lot of men who find you stunning.
Archy’s correct, at least as far as men are concerned.
Numerous studies have demonstrated that men prefer “toned” to skinny, and that the “male fantasy” body weight is usually between 10 and 15 pounds heavier than what women tend to think it is.
This is probably because it’s easy to get hung up on a number (i.e. “I don’t know when I look ‘toned’ but I can be certain when I have lost 5 lbs…”), but the fact remains that the problem exists squarely in the heads of women, not in the desires of men.
I agree with much of what you said above. “Hotness” as the world looks at is objective. But truthfully if we are looking at a woman just to judge her beautiful or not objectifys the woman anyway. Now, I don’t want to get into a bunch of arguements about that. I am hooked on women in a good way. I think they are god’s most beautiful creation but like the author I have found some rotund women extremely attractive and then thinner. Is there such a thing as an objectively attractive person? I think God inteneded men to be attracted… Read more »
I think the photo resonates with women because most of us have a lot if self hatred about not being skinny enough. Even if you eat right, work out and watch your weight, it is very, very difficult (short of actual starvation) to achieve the bony/skinny look that seems to be the current cultural ideal. We worry that’s what all men want and we feel a deep despair about ourselves becsuse we can’t possibly achieve it (at least that’s true for a lot of women). Women also impose horrible standards on each other and idealize skinniness probably even more than… Read more »
Sarah: The only women who impose superskinny on other women are the type of women who are obsessed with that. And I agree with you that this current ideal is impossible for many many people.
“Even if you eat right, work out and watch your weight, it is very, very difficult (short of actual starvation) to achieve the bony/skinny look that seems to be the current cultural ideal. We worry that’s what all men want and we feel a deep despair about ourselves becsuse we can’t possibly achieve it (at least that’s true for a lot of women). Women also impose horrible standards on each other and idealize skinniness probably even more than men do.” A very important point, I really wish people would understand there is NO universal attraction and beauty differs person to… Read more »
physically… purely physically i am attracted to fit ( slightly muscular) curvy women… that said, what KEEPS a woman being attractive to me is about her personality, i have known women who my first opinion was pretty low become raving beauties in my eyes, and drop dead knockouts that took my breath away become repulsive. my lady doesn’t have a type, she finds bodies of all types akward and limiting it’s all about the person ( which makes me DAMN proud let me tell you). but i understand the issue. I’m the father of three daughters all beautiful (17,16, and… Read more »
Sexual attraction can be emotionally complicated, and there is a real difference between being beautiful and being sexy.
For me, the photo of Keira Knightley is visually stunning. She looks good and beautiful and sexy to me, and yet the photo doesn’t really prompt much lust in me. When I see that photo, it’s more envy than lust – God, I wish I had a core like that!
“There’s a real difference between being beautiful and being sexy.” I feel like I could write a whole book on that topic. For instance, sexual attraction in men is primarily visual, and emotional attraction is emotional. With women, these two basically seem to overlap and conflict with each other. But we can certainly agree that there’s a difference between someone you would sleep with, and someone worth waking up to. There are those girls who give you erections, which is like, okay. But then there are those girls who give you braingasms. Jealousy just sort of dies off. Her smile… Read more »
Actually, it doesn’t require a strong core to have well developed abdominals. All you need is very little body fat and taut skin.
Hot, sexy, beautiful isn’t the same for any 2 people. While I dont find the women at the top of this image attractive, who am I to judge someone else for liking it!?! Hell, I don’t think I’m attractive as far as men go, but I know someone who’ll disagree with me (and probably kick my ass over it, too).
We shouldn’t be upset with eachother, we should simply refuse to accept any societal “norm” and don’t judge ourselves against that ‘accepted’ image. Be happy with yourself and others will be happy with/for you!
True true
It’s true that a person’s attractiveness shouldn’t affect how you treat them as a person.
It’s NOT true that there’s something inherently wrong with being attracted to one type of appearance over others, or that a thought crime has been committed if you don’t find all women equally attractive.
While my point was about attraction I do agree with what you say here. Its one thing to say “that ___ isn’t attractive to me” but another to treat them like they aren’t even a ____ because you don’t find them attractive.