Joanna Schroeder believes men are being harmed when the beauty industry tells women they aren’t good enough… “down there.”
Men—or ladies, of course, depending upon your interests—do you really care about “down there” as much as everyone says you do?
I realize this is a lady-type question, but this is a men’s magazine, and I need to know what you all think. Because according to Cosmopolitan and all of its brethren, all you men think about is the ways in which we women horrify you.
And as a sex columnist, I can attest to the fact that out of the approximately 500 anonymous questions Eli and I have gotten on She Said He Said, exactly one was about a woman’s stinky crotch. Every other guy would rather talk about how to please a woman sexually or whether or not he should call his ex girlfriend.
Jezebel writer Erin Gloria Ryan summed up the ways in which women think that men think about us, in a piece called How to Make Your Vagina Taste Awesome:
Ever since I’ve been old enough to sneak copies of Teen Magazine at the middle school library, I’ve known that vaginas (sorry, “down theres”) are mysterious, confusing places that need to be waxed, washed, wiped, and maintained lest all men run screaming away from you and you end up spending your life attachment parenting a series of rescue cats.
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And so Ms. Ryan set out to discover what science could teach her about how to… shall we say… “maximize the appeal” of the female nethers. Of course (because I know you’re all wondering) there was no science to it, aside from keeping clean and going to the doctor if something seems troubling. But the “anecdata” she collected included eating a whole bunch of fruit and drinking water:
During my informal snooping and asking around, I found pineapple mentioned frequently as vaginal taste aid. Apparently, it’s high in sugars, and when you eat it, some internal mechanism sends tiny Magic School Buses to your stomach to cart away the sweet pineapple molecules straight to your vagina.
But what I really wonder here, and what I’ve wondered before, is whether or not you guys feel like pawns in some messed-up beauty industry bullshit.
Think about it, the beauty industry has told us that you won’t love us unless we’re “perfect”, which basically means that you won’t love us if we look the way that nature intended us to. Now, I know that everyone has their own preferences for hairstyle and the whatnot—men and women, straight and gay—and we should all be able to discuss what we (as individuals) prefer, but I think men are being manipulated by this campaign against women’s bodies.
I mean, it’s in your name, as Ms. Ryan so eloquently points out, that we’re told we’re just not okay the way we are. And that makes us resentful. And it makes you look like shallow a-holes.
And I, for one, am not buying it. I’m not buying that you guys are willing to dismiss a woman you really like because she doesn’t taste like a fruit salad.
But I’m willing to hear arguments either way.
What do you think? Are you guys being sold up the river by the beauty industry?
How do the multitudes of articles in major women’s magazines telling women they aren’t good enough damage men?
Image of fruit salad with mint leaf courtesy of Shutterstock
I think a lot of women feel self-conscious about their taste/odor because, hey, guess what, we can smell it too. And we can’t help wondering – is this how it’s supposed to smell? Does this smell turn him on, or off? Or right before or after my period, the scent is more iron-y – is that good? Bad? Healthy? Normal? A turn-on, a turn-off? Or when I kiss my husband after he’s gone “down there,” – I taste my own flavor and wonder, Does he like this? Or does he tolerate it as part of the act? Because it’s analogous… Read more »
Oh, man. Cosmo. Really – the kind of “advice” they give on sex and “what men want” is just, well, hilarious. It’s really a shame that so many have inhibitions and insecurities about this stuff, and it’s too bad that magazines like Cosmo are feeding it and feeding off it.
Sure – basic hygiene is essental. Hair style? People have preferences all over the place, so if you have a longterm partner (or more) talk about it and find something that works for everyone. Other than that – it’s really not important.
Where are all the men who have developed body image issues because of magazines and television? Seriously, if you look in the magazine rack at the supermarket there are close to the same number of magazines featuring muscle-bound, square-jawed, tanned, hairless male models with perfect faces and hair as there are women of the same degree of physical perfection. I argue that the men in those magazines are vastly more physically attractive than the average man as opposed to the women on magazine covers not really being that much better looking than an average attractive woman. But why do women… Read more »
Ever been to a gym recently? There are plenty of men with body image issues.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/jan/06/body-image-concerns-men-more-than-women
It’s easy to ignore one or two messages but imagine a constant bombardment and reinforcement of messages, where you pretty much only see one body type glorified as attractive. That is the problem.
Magazines and beauty industry WILL NEVER TELL women that they are good enough, it would be like committing suicide; they must convince potential customers that they NEED another product or service only they can provide.
Women’s magazines and the beauty industry I think are extremely destructive to female self-esteem. Seriously ladies, burn them. The bullshit like photoshopping images, picture perfect looks everytime, etc cause unrealistic expectations of beauty and for what? To drive sales of beauty products. A bit of makeup can look nice but you’ll still find a partner without it, some of the hottest women I’ve seen have been makeup free when working out, swimming, etc. Pay attention to what your partner likes, not what the beauty industry likes. Although recently my female friends have been telling me that the people that judge… Read more »
Hi Archy — I’ve heard that too “women are more apt to judge other women in turns of their looks than men are” — and I have to say, that statement completely baffles me. That has never once been my experience. I have honestly been trying to think back on every conversation I’ve ever had with every woman in my life — and I’ve simply never felt judged by other women. And even if I was — quite frankly I wouldn’t care. I simply would not care what other women would think — I would only care what other men… Read more »
Well the friends that told me are about 20ish, maybe it’s new, maybe it’s just this country or location, maybe just them in particular. They judged each other on their hair, makeup, looks, bodyweight etc to a level I feel is more than I’d ever hear a guy judge a girl on.
Thanks for talking of your own experience, it’s nice to know that experiences vary around the world, life would be awful boring if it were all the same.
Lisa, I don’t know if women are more judging of other women than men are, but I would suggest that they are part and parcel of the problem. I was just recommending a friend read The Female Thing by Laura Kipnis. If you’re not familiar with it, it’s the follow-up polemic to her book Against Love and teasingly examines how women relate to each other in our culture and are complicit in this feeling of being judged.
Well, all day now I’ve been trying to think of an example of women being judgmental, but I can’t. The one interesting example that came to mind was from my daughter — several girls on her hockey team and her are fiercely competitive, often judgmental. And yet, when Shannon went to the prom, this one girl from her hockey team did her hair for her. It looked beautiful. And all of the girls were SO supportive of each others looks (I was there at the pictures). Beauty was actually a way they could get our of their judgmentalism. And *that*… Read more »
I just hear from friends who’ve seen vicious bitchy fights, judging, bullying going on. I have no doubt there are good experiences for women such as you and your daughters experience but sadly it doesn’t seem universal. I basically asked one friend why she felt she had to wear makeup in public and the jist of it was to be accepted by other women. I see on my facebook women judging other women harshly over their fashion, it’s all pretty silly! Guys tend to judge more on our cars, or just straight up be assholes to each other I find.… Read more »
I’ve had good and bad experiences with other women. Some women CAN be very judgey in my experience, although it may relate to different things depending on the social group and their stage of life. In HS and college there were definitely some “mean girls” who were very catty. I remeber a girl in college telling me that her sorority would rank potential pledges based on the brand of makeup they used — if they used an expensive brand like Clinique, they got bonus points, if they used a cheap drug store brand,, it was an automatic rejection! In older… Read more »
I’ve had my appearance critiqued by women so they don’t limit it to just women especially when it comes to fashion, but even facial hair, hair style, etc. For women who’ve known me well, some of the criticism isn’t even that the style is bad, but that it hasn’t changed after many years or I have too many things of the same color. For some reason, you can’t own two pairs of black pants. How many guys have been given a piece of clothing from a woman as a gift in their adult life? I don’t think men are as… Read more »
I can see the logic in your assertion that as a heterosexual woman, you’re dressing to attract men and what other women think doesn’t matter and doesn’t factor into your decisions. But I do think there’s a strong element of same-sex acceptance/rejection in how women and men dress. We’re aware of the social cues and what’s acceptable and what’s not, and I think these tend to matter more inside our gender-spheres than to the opposite sex. As a woman I’m definitely more aware of what other women are wearing than I am of the men (and that partially goes into… Read more »
“I simply would not care what other women would think — I would only care what other men thought. Because, being a heterosexual — that’s the only thing that matters (in regards to looks). That is, if a woman doesn’t find me attractive, hell, I’m not going to have sex with her anyway so why would that matter? ” Oh my God, your comment was totally a “lightbulb” moment for me! I have always been one of those women to easily become insecure with myself just because of something negative that another woman has said. I have always had low… Read more »
I’m so happy for your light bulb moment! Interestingly, it was a story on here that gave me a very similar lightbulb moment. A guy was writing about his own insecurities, and about how he was in a relationship, and sometimes he said things to his girlfriend he didn’t really mean to say. And he wrote “What I really want to tell you is that sometimes when I hurt, I want you to hurt too.” And that was such an “aha” to me! Not only an aha, but the something that could actually impact my actions moving forward (my favorite… Read more »
I think the issue with women judging women is that it’s not out there and as open as other forms of judgement are. You get a pack of women that always hang out and gossip at a job for example. Someone wanders by and over hears them talking about someone’s shoes, make up, hair, breasts, body shape and on down the line. Even being part of that peer group at a job can cause pressure on another women as in not wanting to be the target of the nasty comments. I’ve seen casual friend groups do that as well. And… Read more »
This is my observation, and untested…I would like feedback. It seems to me that many women try to develop relationships with women that they perceive to be less attractive than themselves. When they go out, perhaps in groups of 3+, they want to be viewed as the definitive “alpha-female” by the male suitors. It’s as if they need less attractive (same-sex) companions to make them feel better about their self-image. I’ve seen alot of that. I rarely see adult ladies trying to attach themselves to the “smoking hot” woman of their circle of co-workers or acquaintances. Then there’s that woman… Read more »
Yes, I had a friend like that in my early 30’s. I was going through kind of a bad stage of my life. I was taking anti depressants and had gained a lot of weight. I felt like sh!t. She was a very attractive, blond, shapely woman. We met at work. She had just gotten divorced and was on the prowl for a new man. She kept pressuring me to go out with her to bars and nightclubs, where I felt very awkward and got zero attention from anyone. Mostly I kept her company while she flirted and had guys… Read more »
I will say this to your observation, Don Draper – while I wouldn’t say I make any friendship decisions based on conscious judgements of their attractivness, I am on some level aware of the difference in attractiveness between me and my girlfriends. Of course that’s all subjective, but still – I do perceive it when my friend is dressed “hotter” than me, or when she can pull off a look that I can’t because we have different body types. And then I get that all-too-familiar, beauty-industry-fueled burst of envy and insecurity – and then, as long as I don’t do… Read more »
@ Lisa Hickey And he wrote “What I really want to tell you is that sometimes when I hurt, I want you to hurt too.” When I was younger there were these things you couldn’t do like listen to disco or dance music. Don’t have any pink things because if you did, you’d be gay and not a man. It took me a while, but then I realized that being a man meant listening to what I wanted. Wearing whatever color I wanted. I bought a pink Nintendo DS because it was cheap. No other guy would touch it. Just… Read more »
Taste/smell/etc. varies from individual to individual. I was married for many years, and my wife had a fairly strong odor “down there” that was mildly unpleasant. She practiced good hygiene, and had an average diet, so I’m not sure what the issue was. It never prevented me from going down on her; it was just noticeable. And rest assured I NEVER, EVER mentioned it to her (knowing how insecure women can be over their bodies). My current girlfriend has a delightful aroma & taste. No, it doesn’t smell/taste like fruit salad (thank God). It tastes like woman, and most, if… Read more »
Wired maybe. But is it wiring or programming or both?
I remember when I was young a friend told me to put a Lifesaver there. He swore by it, but I was afraid that I wouldn’t be able to fish it out and so never did, never actually needed it anyway. I’m sure you could use whipped cream or other things, but I was just glad when I got the opportunity. Older women don’t seem to have as much of a problem with that as younger women, but some of them would still rather blow you (at times) than engage in sex. I think it’s a way to take care… Read more »
I’d rather blow but that’s because I really don’t feel anything when my fiance returns the favor.
Have you told him you don’t feel anything? If not, you should.
JMO.
As a guy who likes to go “down there” I have a mixed opinion on this. First, some of the women have been self-conscious about it because of either hair or the fact that they were worried about the way they smelled of tasted — but none of these women have ever had anything to actually worry about. It was perfectly fine — the way it’s supposed to be! I mean, no guy can whole-heartedly believe that it’s going to smell/taste like a fruit salad. But there is the general idea that men like things to be neat and clean,… Read more »
Personally, I refuse to go down on any woman who hasn’t had labiaplasty and a recent vajazzling.
hahaha.
I’m in agreement with Tim. I very much enjoy going “down there.” But I’ve had long-term relationships (10+ years) with women who said they enjoyed it, but seemed to have a moment of panic when they realized I was headed south. As one of the commenters experienced, I qas in love with a woman who was very good with GIVING oral pleasure but would rarely do it, because some jerk/kid 25 years prior had told her she was no good at it. We have the capacity to damage psyches very easily in matters sexually. It may not be this simple… Read more »
I’ve found that many women, although initially intrigued by the concept of cunnilingus, don’t really enjoy the reality of it that much. Some are very uncomfortable with it. When it comes to oral sex, they seem more interested in giving than receiving. Of course, that might be due to the insecurity issues which you mention in your article. Your mention that women’s magazines send messages to a reader that she’s not good enough reminded me of an observation that I’ve made over the years. It seems like women are much more influenced by the opinions of other women than they… Read more »
While I won’t say drinking pineapple juice magically fixes all… I will not in my experiences of down there in men and women that those who are eating diets full of nothing good, heavy smokers, etc. do taste different and not always good to me. I was with a guy who, when eating ok, tasted great for example. But when he decided to binge on greasy foods for a week… I couldn’t stand the taste of him. Or people who eat a lot of foods such as asparagus, brussel sprouts, garlic. As a person who likes the stinky foods like… Read more »
CajunMick: You might be interested watching the following documentary called “The Perfect Vagina”., http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/perfect-vagina/. I don’t know if female genital plastic surgery is a new trend, but, it is very disturbing. You might be interested in watching the documentary “My penis and everyone else’s” as well.
in summary, both documentaries deal with male and female perception regarding how “imperfect” their genitalia is.
Thanks for the heads-up, GPD. Appreciate it.
Recently, I was told about cosmetic surgery that women were having to reduce the size of their labia minora. I couldn’t believe it!
You’ve got to wonder where they got the idea in the first place, and the weasal surgeons that are performing the surgery.
Cop to ladies: “Please step away from the plastic surgeon’s office and put down the magazines.”
Yes, I do have a preference (don’t most folks?) for ‘down there.’ I may prefer a certain way her gentialia may look, smell or taste, but it would never be a deal-breaker. Vive la différence!
.
Supposedly there are some health benefits to that, but I’ve also heard that some women want designer vaginas. It drives me crazy that infant FGC is illegal although there are health benefits to labiaplasty, but infant MGC is legal. The health benefits of either (assuming they exist at all and are not solely derived from people failing to keep their genitals clean) seem to be found later in life and if FGC is so harmful, why let adult women elect to do it?
Adults should be allowed to do whatever crazy shit they want to to their bodies. Infants should be protected and allowed to grow up and achieve the age of consent, at which point if they want to have scalloped labia or pharaonic circumcision, it’s up to them.
Well, it’s not entirely a surprise, as the beauty industry makes its money by exploiting women’s insecurities and filling them with the paranoia that unless they take drastic measures to beautify themselves, they’ll spend their lives alone and unloved. How else is Maybelline going to get $500/ year out of them (or more) unless they’re convinced their romantic futures depend upon it? (The same goes for the plastic surgery industry.) But while, yes, we men are often picky about certain things, and do have our visual preferences, ultimately what we’re most attracted to is a woman’s energy, her mind, whether… Read more »
It’s hard to sell that idea that men love women for who we are. It doesn’t keep women insecure and buying products. I’m vulnerable to it too – I know what they do to the images, how they craft the advertisements, all the marketing… I’m still affected by it. I don’t even read magazines or watch much tv. It still gets to me. The messages they send out constantly are like PUAs, each one negs us into believing we’re not good enough. Women resent imaginary men for being so unrealistically picky, and then they take it out on the men… Read more »
” It’s so hard to hear and believe the few real voices telling us that they think we’re beautiful the way we are when we have thousands of fake ones screaming at us that we aren’t.” Many guys from the younger generation actually like heavier women. These women are considered “thick”. I know it’s hard to give up the images we grew up with. I’m 44 and still think that someday I’ll get married and have kids even though I know that won’t happen unless I seriously start looking at mail order brides, but it’s what I’ve been taught the… Read more »
” It still gets to me. The messages they send out constantly are like PUAs, each one negs us into believing we’re not good enough. Women resent imaginary men for being so unrealistically picky, and then they take it out on the men who do love them for who they are.” WOW. This is MY light bulb moment. Thank you for saying this and allowing me to recognize it in myself. It really isn’t the men in my life who make me feel insecure when I do, it’s a mixture of the negs I get from guys trying to sleep… Read more »
If a guy is giving you a neg, doesn’t that mean he thinks you are so beautiful that he worries you are conceited? There is a compliment right there you can take from the negs. It’s not that these guys are trying to insult you, but they probably think you are a gorgeous woman who KNOWS she is gorgeous, so the neg is meant to cut down that self-esteem a bit whilst also showing that he isn’t going to just pepper you with compliments…apparently the lesser-men will just compliment a beautiful woman over n over which gets boring, or shows… Read more »
Also, women seem to have a much higher threshold to convince them that they are attractive to men because a man can compliment his wife or girlfriend a million ways a million times and be genuine, honest and loving in every sentiment. But one time if you make a joke or don’t like something or make 1 snide comment in an argument she develops a complex that completely invalidates all the years of loving compliments. So I’m less worried about reassuring a woman that her vagina is acceptable because it takes such an effort to reassure her that her hair,… Read more »
Guys get influenced by porn and pop culture about penis size by about 1,000 – 1 compared to women’s genital insecurity, most of which is based on the fear that it smells, because honestly it does have an odor, one that is not offensive or repulsive in any way to the vast majority of men. So yes, we are being sold down the river on that one.
What do you think? Are you guys being sold up the river by the beauty industry? Yes we are being sold up the river. Instead of hearing out what find attractive and are into they are instead feeding women lines of bull about what we are supposedly thinking. Its one part of two messages about male sexuality. On one hand we are supposed to be slaves to our lust and want to bang every woman we can (even to the point of violating said woman). On the other we are supposedly so picky about our sexual tastes that we shame… Read more »
Agree. The real issue is not men. The problem is women under the influence of the beauty industry. I do not get this obsession by women with shaved/bare vulvas. I really believe it is the impact of porn on men and society. This in turn has impacted women as they try to be more sexually appealing. There is just so much garbage going on with people today. Bleaching of rears, whitening of the “down there” areas, fake rears, fake boobs, and on and on. Enough to make you vomit. Personally, while I always loved to give oral to a woman,… Read more »
I do not get this obsession by women with shaved/bare vulvas. I really believe it is the impact of porn on men and society. This in turn has impacted women as they try to be more sexually appealing. There is just so much garbage going on with people today. Blame Sex & The City. Or maybe Jennifer Love Hewitt. I dunno. I will say that sex feels different when you’re both completely bare. I found it to be a fairly positive experience. I will also say sex feels different when you’ve got four day old stubble and ingrown hairs. I… Read more »
darned misspelled tags…
Meh, it’s the HPV you have to worry about. That’s the one that gives you throat cancer.
@Nick Pavlidis,
Wow! Never knew about HPV & throat cancer. Thanks for informing me of this hazard.
On the matter of shaved vs bare, it really is a matter of preference I suppose. The first time I was with a bare woman, I went limp. She was young, around 27 at the time. I had this psychological block and thoughts of having sex with a kid…..
My preference is for trimmed. Not into the bare thingy.
Ugh, I hate when people assume shaved = trim. I must be a kid everytime I shave my face.
I bet there are quite a few men (or boys-to-men) who are quite apprehensive about going down there… A classmate of mine in HS grew up to write a memoir about the gender war and relates a weird, gross joke that the older boys tell the younger ones about a a guy who goes to a prostitute and eats her out, but then finds a meatball (!!)…This super gross-out joke’s punch line is basically the guy pukes because the previous customer puked first….[ICKY, right? ] Gross-out scenes aside…it seems that this represents the fear and “disgusto” (as he put it… Read more »
I figure as long as there are no teeth “down there” it’s all good. Odor has never particularly been an issue in my experience…
The things that women’s mags can make women worry about is truly astonishing. Truly astonishing!
The Wet One
(a strong believer in the mantra of “I don’t give a f**k what you think”)
Are you perhaps referring to this movie?
Bingo!
I did not read that article on Jezebel, because I don’t have to click every thing that, as Noah Brand describes it elsewhere, while it gets my attention, I don’t want to hear. I know that I and probably every single person I’ve ever had oral sex with has worried about this, even though I’ve had only a few conversations with lovers about it. Some girlfriends won’t let me near them, either when they’re feeling unattractive or at that time of the month, and others let me be the judge. One guy swore by a fruit juice fast before orgies.… Read more »