Joanna Schroeder wonders what it is that makes a person “good”: Is it a life absent of transgressions, or the near-constant quest to become better?
I believe in redemption.
Mostly little “r” redemption, but I’m not ready to totally dismiss big “r” Redemption, either… But this isn’t a blog about spirituality.
It a blog about the notion of “boys being boys” and what it means to be a human being who does bad things.
♦◊♦
Most of the time I hate the term “boys being boys”, as it seems just simply wrong in so many ways. Wrong because it implies that bad behavior is innate to masculinity. Wrong because it implies females are somehow above sin or temptation. Wrong because there simply isn’t an adequate equivalent term for girls.
I actually said “boys being boys” yesterday about my sons and their pal, Jaden, who were climbing under trees, over rocks, and getting their shoes and clothes rightly mucky in a riverbed under a waterfall. I turned to Jaden’s mom, Dajana, and said, “This is good for them: to just be ‘boys being boys’.”
Then I thought about what that means. Boys climbing, running, digging and getting muddy is the sweetest embodiment of what it means to be a boy in this world. The fact that Dajana and I let them, and were glad to see them get muddy reflects what society expects from a boy. We expect boys and men to be dirty, to be in touch with the earth. It seems natural. It seems right.
But we want them to be dirty in very precise ways. As they get older, we want them to drool over the cheerleader in the hallways of high school, we want them to be daring enough to risk rejection in asking us to dance in night clubs. We want them to want sex more than us, we want them to be tantalized by our bodies and by our sex. But we also want them to control their supposedly filthy minds. To not stare. Or to only stare a little.
And there is a binary there. We expect little girls to stay clean, to be pure, to be the keepers of virtue.
But the fact is, men and women are all equally dirty. Our hands are dirty, we’re guilty and we’re perverse. We have desires, and they aren’t always pretty. We dream of power and acceptance. We crave validation. And these things are messy. They’re actually filthy.
And we’re going to screw up, especially when we’re young— but not exclusively when we’re young.
All of this was brought to the forefront of my consciousness by two amazing pieces on The Good Men Project today. First, John Taylor’s Picking Up the Pieces, which is Taylor’s wide-open and excruciating look into the heart of a man who cheated on his wife. And it’s not from the perspective of someone who has healed and grown from the experience. This seems to have just happened, and man-oh-man is it raw. Taylor is suffering, his wife is torn apart, and his kids are acting out and devastated by what’s happening with their family.
The second is John Manchester’s stunning commentary on Mitt Romney’s prep school bullying of a gay teen, called Bullying and the Cult of the Tough Guy. Manchester was also bullied in prep school and recounts the event so intimately that both Editor-in-Chief Noah Brand and I came away from the piece with an almost animal need to find the bullies and punch them in the face.
But these bullies are grown up now. They’re grown men like Mitt Romney, probably wearing the same types of suits, probably cruising on yachts or something. Maybe they heard of Romney’s acts at Cranbook and felt like shit, knowing they did the same sort of thing to John Manchester back in the exact same year—1965. Or maybe they shrug and say, “boys will be boys.”
♦◊♦
So the question I ask is this: Who do we forgive?
Because forgiveness is crucial to our survival as both individuals and as a society. We cannot live stuck in the mud of the bad things that happen to us, or even of the bad things we’ve done. But the guilt of our transgressions serve a function. Someone once told a friend who was deep in a disaster of his own making, “Sometimes you have to sit in your shit so you know what it smells like.”
Gross, I know, sorry. But it works for me. If you’ve never made a shit-stack out of your life, maybe you don’t know what it feels like to have regrets that run so deep, so profound, that you lie awake in bed and dream of a life where you made different choices. But the rest of us have done something profoundly bad. We neglected our family, we put greed over friendship, we cheated on someone who loved us, we abused someone who trusted us.
But does the act of doing something bad make us bad? Is a man who cheats on his wife—at the moment his mind or heart or body transgressed—no longer a “good man”? Is he suddenly a “bad man”?
Is a man who bullied an already-ostracised boy when he was a teen a bad man?
What distinctions do we make between good and bad?
I’m comfortable saying that both John Taylor’s cheating and Mitt Romeny’s alleged bullying were bad acts. They hurt others. Each, no doubt, did some permanent damage.
But I’m not comfortable calling either of them bad men. First, because I don’t know either of them in real life. But we most likely will never know Mitt Romney, or even John Taylor, in real life. So we have to judge them based upon what we do know. And we’d like to be the people who say, “I don’t judge others!” and yet in many ways we have to… It’s innate to who we are as humans.
We hurt for Taylor’s wife or others who may be involved. And that makes us angry at John. We think of those who’ve transgressed against us, or maybe we think of our own transgressions. It becomes personal. But, in truth, it has nothing to do with us. Hopefully we hear the pain and promises of redemption in Taylor’s confession, and we identify with his humanity. Our forgiveness may be inconsequential to Taylor, who will never know whether we’ve forgiven him or not, but it is meaningful to us.
We hope Taylor will sit in his shit and get to know the stink. Not just in the pain of regret, but in the exploration of how he ended up in such a situation. A naked, bold-faced stare into what created that need for affirmation, for acceptance, for passion or for excitement; whatever was broken inside of him that made him do something he knew could hurt his family. Because the quest to do better, to be better, is what I believe allows a person who has made mistakes—a person who’s done bad things—to continue to be a “good man.”
That’s redemption.
♦◊♦
And we hope that if Mitt Romney did, indeed, commit the “prank” that people are saying he did, that he has done the same. We hope he’s sat in his shit and imagined himself in the place of that teenaged boy with the blonde hair, watching scissors come at his face, watching bystanders laugh and jeer instead of coming to his aid. Knowing that Romney’s a Christian, we hope that he’s prayed with a truly open heart and asked God to forgive him.
And that’s what strikes many of us about Romney’s comments regarding the abuse he and his cohorts allegedly inflicted upon their victim: he claims he doesn’t remember it. He doesn’t deny it, but he doesn’t remember it. How can there be redemption, how can there be forgiveness, for a sin that one hasn’t truly internalized? How can he come to his god and say, “Wash me clean, Oh Lord” about something he has somehow forgotten?
And that’s what is going to cost Romney the trust of the American people. Regardless of whether he did sit on that young man and forcefully cut his hair or if it’s some “conspiracy” to make him look bad, we don’t believe he can empathize with us, for any number of reasons.
We are Americans. We are an incredibly diverse population: the bullied, we are the immigrants, we are the sinners, we are the cheaters trying to get better, we are the parents working third shift in the factory and trying to sleep in the daytime through the laughs of our children whom we miss so dearly. We are the gay men, the lesbians, the abuse survivors, the combat veterans, the sisters of someone who is addicted to drugs. We are single parents on food stamps, trying to find a way to have a job and still get enough aid to feed our babies something other than chicken nuggets from the dollar menu.
We can look past him being born into wealth, we can forgive him for having been a punk-ass obnoxious entitled 18 year-old, because we too know that we were not—and are not— perfect. We could forgive him… If we believed he could empathize with us. We could forgive him if we believed he had grown over time and developed a compassionate empathy for those he hurt when he was a boy. Because we, too, are broken.
And I hope we do end up seeing some compassionate empathy from Mitt Romney. Because I want to believe he is a good man, and I firmly believe that a man is defined not by the bad things he has done, but rather by the good man he is trying to become.
What we want is not to be plied by the damaging excuse of “boys being boys”, but rather examples of two human beings willing to admit that they are still growing into being good men. Because, in the end, aren’t we all still growing into our goodness?
Photo of dictionary – redemption courtesy of Shutterstock.
Julie, I agree with you on your initial statement, which is a clear indication that you are right this time. LOL! Specifically, this statement: “Usually there’s a fundamental problem in the relationship, and then a fundamental problem in the cheater.” Assuming that the “cheater” is truly monogamous, not poly person trying to live a monogamous life, certainly, either the relationship should either never have been entered into, it’s currently broken, or at least damaged such that the emotional connection is weak or non-existent. A key to preventing sexual infidelity is to know who you are marrying. You should know the… Read more »
I feel like it’s my birthday and Christmas and the lottery winnings all in one!!!! 😉
Well, shoot, you mean I shouldn’t go into marriage like I’m in a romantic comedy? Heck, how is anyone in the entertainment industry going to make any money showing deep, comprehensive conversations before the wedding scene?
There’s much more money to be made giving bad relationship models through pop culture and then selling self-help books and charging for marriage counseling once the marriage implodes. This “talking things through beforehand” is going to lay people off work and deepen the recession….. Why do you hate America so much?…. : – )
Fair enough. Maybe I was being too quick to find fault.
I think maybe the heteronormativity was a little more notable to me because of the nature of the bullying that Romney is accused of. Basically, I was wondering out loud, perhaps there are ways in which Romney’s alleged bullying has some things in common with what the article says “we want for our sons”….
Well, this article is discussing bits and bobs of gender non-conformity…or at least of re-examining gender assumptions. And if Romney’s bullying was based on perceived homosexuality…well usually the reason for that perception is because of gender non-conformity. Our society still has a really hard time getting it into it’s collective noggins that gender performance and sexual orientation are not the same thing, and that one doesn’t indicate the other. But mostly, I saw the heteronormative bits in this article as admissions to just that. The bits where she mentions the cheerleader, for example, is sort of admitting the specific ways… Read more »
“and part of ‘traditional’ masculine behaviour is desiring sex with women.” Yes nature likes it that way. Which is not to say that desiring sex with men is somehow ‘unatural’ but there is no reason to act as if men wanting women is a ‘tradition’ passed on by our societies / tribes / civilizations. You could nuke the planet and leave 10 babies and bottles alone; when they grow up they are going to want to have sex with one another. Will there be experimentation and will there be 1 or 2 who gravitate towards the same sex? Of course.… Read more »
Yeah you’re misunderstanding what I’m saying. Sexual orientation and gender performance are two separate things. Gender is the cultural baggage associated with biological sex (basically). Sexual orientation is which gender(s) you are sexually attracted to (basically). Traditional gender norms often conflated these two things. A man was not a man unless he had sex with a woman. A woman was not a woman unless she was married to a man. So like in the play/movie Albert Nobbs…we’re introduced to Glenn Close’s character. She’s physically female, but she lives the life of a man. Throughout the entire film though, we’re never… Read more »
This is way off the subject, but I couldn’t help but notice in the article that the moms seem to assume that their sons are or will be heterosexual, or at least they will be attracted to women. (Of course, a “cheerleader” can also be male, but I suspect the term assumes a female cheerleader.) Am I reading too much into the language?
Yeah, but pretty much every article about parenting or relationships is a bit on the heteronormative side. Seeing as this isn’t an article about how to talk to your kids about relationships, or something like that, I don’t see it as such a big deal. You gotta read pretty deep into it to pick up on it.
Julie: It’s obvious they were men. Because if there had been a woman in the mix the media would have gone apeshit about how unusual that was and how emasculating it would have been to have a woman kill bin Laden. It’s obvious that those Secret Service agents were men. But still that is what people focused on as they went apeshit over the “if there were more women….” angle. So with that seal team its fine that “just know” that they were men and no need for a “are men brave” angle but with those Secret Service agents it… Read more »
It’s obvious that those Secret Service agents were men. But still that is what people focused on as they went apeshit over the “if there were more women….” angle. So with that seal team its fine that “just know” that they were men and no need for a “are men brave” angle but with those Secret Service agents it needed to be pointed out that they were men and there was a pressing need to talk about the intelligence of men? Because men are assumed to be brave, thus it is normal to expect them to be taking folks like… Read more »
ause men are assumed to be brave, thus it is normal to expect them to be taking folks like Bin Laden down. The agents behaved in a way that wasn’t noble or expected and thus was attacked for being a guy that put a bad name to the role they were playing. I’m not fully convinced it was because they acted in an unexpected way if for no other reason than the fact that again it wasn’t how the agents f’d up it was how men f’d up and how things would be better if more women were around. hink… Read more »
Julie you seem to be all over the place here. We don’t laud ‘men’ when they do something as amazing and brave as Bin Laden because ‘we expect men to be brave’? Heck if we expect that type of bravery from people just because they are men we should be having Man Parades every day. You might expect it and it might be ok with you to simply dismiss it as just another act of bravery by men which we expect but I don’t. On the other hand when you respond to women f’ing up suddenly you ‘guess they should… Read more »
Human beings do laudatory acts. Human beings fuck things up. Women in power would probably fuck things up as much as men in power. They might do it differently, but they’d create violence, problems, issues. People fuck up when they get power. They’d also do good things. Women have had a hand in great discoveries. I’m sure there were loads of gay people and people of color too, who didn’t get credit. No one who is an everyday hero gets lauded nearly enough as they should be. Men are treated as disposable units, I agree on this, that’s the very… Read more »
I’m happy to know those are your opinions Julie. Clearly they are not society at large’s opinions. Somehow that seems to be an impossible thing to acknowledge here. Anyway enjoy your stuff…
“Not just in the pain of regret, but in the exploration of how he ended up in such a situation. A naked, bold-faced stare into what created that need for affirmation, for acceptance, for passion or for excitement; whatever was broken inside of him that made him do something he knew could hurt his family. Because the quest to do better, to be better, is what I believe allows a person who has made mistakes—a person who’s done bad things—to continue to be a “good man.” That’s redemption.” Joanna – thank you. I committed some downright scurrilous acts six years… Read more »
Hey Don Draper, I’m so glad that resonated with you. People who haven’t been involved in infidelity often don’t understand how complicated the issue is… Usually there’s a fundamental problem in the relationship, and then a fundamental problem in the cheater. Both need to be fixed concurrently in order for the relationship to survive and there is certainly no guarantee even there. The way I see it, if you do the work and you get better, you heal the part of you that was broken and made you want to break your promise (not just to your spouse but also… Read more »
“I’m so glad that resonated with you. People who haven’t been involved in infidelity often don’t understand how complicated the issue is… Usually there’s a fundamental problem in the relationship, and then a fundamental problem in the cheater. Both need to be fixed concurrently in order for the relationship to survive and there is certainly no guarantee even there.” I have been involved with infidelity (recieving end). And while i would agree it CAN point to a fundamental problem in the relatonship, I hardly agree it points to a fundamental problem with the ‘cheater’. More likley it points to a… Read more »
Well, if you promise not to cheat and then you do, there is a problem somewhere. So don’t promise not to be monogamous at the beginning. But if you do promise (not you, but anyone) and you break that promise, there is a fundamental problem with the cheater, because you willingly agreed to something you knew you couldn’t agree to, in order to get the person you wanted. And in any event, it means that you agreed to a system you find faulty instead of being honest. Thus polyamory is becoming even more popular. And yet I know poly people… Read more »
I agree that you have broken your word. One reason I have never cheated. Every. If I found myself in a situation where I was considering it I realized a) there was something missing in my relationship or b) there was something more I wanted from the other person. In any event it was clear that even if I didn’t cheat something was going to give at some point. So I *have* broken up with women when I realize that monogamy is not going to last. That doesn’t go over so well either but… So I am not saying that… Read more »
Sorry, I’m hopping in at the middle of a conversation…I might be covering ground already discussed…but yeah, if you know that you might end up wanting to be in a polyamorous relationship, then only have relationships with women who would be okay with a polyamorous relationship. Some people aren’t built for monogamy, so then don’t be monogamous. Some people aren’t built for polamory, so then don’t be polyamorous. Just don’t tell you’re partner(s) that you’re okay with it (whichever) when you aren’t. And if it changes, then at least be honest about it.
It’s far more complex than that. What you don’t seem to understand is that in our society, you’re not allowed to be poly. They are more misunderstood and discriminated against than homosexuals. As evidence, who exactly is fighting for their rights? Fighting for them to no longer be blighted, insulted, and looked down upon? Fighting for them to be allowed to marry? Most people don’t even recognize it as legitimate, calling them habitual cheaters, dogs, etc. Hence, many of them don’t or can’t/won’t recognize it in themselves, even after having done it repeatedly. But, since society does not recognize it,… Read more »
Personally, I view being abusive as part and parcel of living a life of privilege. Mitt’s a frat boy. Frat boys are mean. Because they have never been reigned in.
Are you abusive? Because no doubt your life is far more privileged than that of someone in a third world country (I’m guessing you live in the first world areas :P). Not ALL rich folk are mean though, around here the “privileged folk” tend to just work hard n save their money?
“Frat Boys are Mean!” Seriously? The class envy/warfare around here is getting really thick.
Yeah, I wonder if the use of the phrase “frat boy” is also meant to include the members of African-American college fraternities, fraternities for undergrad engineering majors, fraternities geared towards public service, etc. (Personally, I think fraternities/sororities have too large a presence on many campuses. I’m not saying this to defend the Greek system. But, there are many different kinds of fraternities.) Lord knows you don’t have to be a member of a fraternity to be a poorly behaved college student….
“Personally, I view being abusive as part and parcel of living a life of privilege.”
I don’t think my grade school friend was privileged. Granted it took 30+ years to reach this theory, but I’m seriously wondering if she had been in fact abused herself.
Just as I thought ….. At first glance it appeared to be a good starting point to discuss “forgiveness” and understanding behaviors, it’s turned into a Mitt bashing political platform. Waiting for the article about Obama and drug use …. As an addictions counselor, it’s an issue that’s close to my heart but then again, a persons past (long past) indiscretions don’t represent who they are today. As I try to get the kids that I work with to understand, their addiction is not who they are as a whole. When they look at all the other assets they have,… Read more »
What does any alleged drug use by Obama have to do with Mitt Romney claiming he “can’t remember” committing a hate-motivated physical assault? If Romney really didn’t remember, he’d deny it outright. That’s what people do when they don’t remember something.
I agree, dredging up this kind of stuff as a predictor of current behaviour is problematic as hell. I think there’s plenty of material in his adult life to criticise without going for the stuff he did when he was a child.
You can draw a straight line between his anti-gay bullying “as a child” and his politics today.
Non-sense
Rebut it then, Michael. I want to see actual debate, not naysaying.
My cousin was a nurse and her husband was a manager in a factory so he worked days and she worked nights because it paid more. They didn’t have kids, but one summer she babysat for me and a girl living next door. The girl’s dad was no longer living at her house and her mom needed to go to work. My cousin had a three level house with a finished basement. The three bedrooms were on the top floor. My cousin loved kids. She thought they’d grow into the house. My cousin took care of us, but would later… Read more »
Truly shocking stuff, sorry to hear it.
“If something really bad happens to you, you’ll remember. If you did something really bad to someone, you’ll remember unless it was a routine occurrence or you just didn’t care about the person you did it to.”
Why don’t I remember then? Why is there something telling me something bad happened, but I can’t remember specifics? I see glimpses of my bullying experiences, but I just can’t remember most of it now. I see people saying over n over that “you’d remember it” and assertions that someone should remember it, am I broken?
I mean sorry you went through it, not sorry to hear it***
Well, it’s possible that the situations were so traumatic you shoved them down into the memory hole so you could cope. not totally forgotten, but put away so you could maintain.
Could be, the period of 2004-2008 was probably some extremely dark days in my life, it was when I pretty much hid from the world.
“Why don’t I remember then? Why is there something telling me something bad happened, but I can’t remember specifics? I see glimpses of my bullying experiences, but I just can’t remember most of it now. I see people saying over n over that “you’d remember it” and assertions that someone should remember it, am I broken?”
Sometimes you block stuff out. I don’t try to dwell on the details because it just makes me sad.
Yes. I’m shocked at the people here claiming it’s possible to just forget doing something so egregious. If you know it’s wrong, you’ll remember it. I suspect people who bully like that? Don’t have normal empathy responses.
Why is it shocking though? I’m guessing people are thinking that such an incident would really stand out for them in their life and that THEY would remember but is it even fair to use our own memory setup to set a standard for other peoples memory? How long did this incident occur for? Was it a minute? Did he see it as mundane or nothing much to worry about? Did he think it’s just hair, who cares it’ll grow back? I’ve asked others about this and they agree it’s possible to forget it. “”They talk about the fact that… Read more »
“I’d guess he still doesn’t see it as a major incident, or is keeping hush about it to avoid scandal,” That’s probably true to some extent. I think that people are concerned that he doesn’t think it was a big deal. The victim thought it was such a big deal that he remembered it for 50 years. I’ve been remembering stuff, since I started this journey into the MRM, and just recently started putting together how it relates. That incident in grade school probably led to the hyper sexual behavior during my high school retreat at a woman’s college. That… Read more »
“Well, it’s possible that the situations were so traumatic you shoved them down into the memory hole so you could cope. not totally forgotten, but put away so you could maintain.”
“Yes. I’m shocked at the people here claiming it’s possible to just forget doing something so egregious. If you know it’s wrong, you’ll remember it. I suspect people who bully like that? Don’t have normal empathy responses.”
I am sorry Julie; which is it?
1) “not totally forgotten” he mentioned knowing bad things happened. 2) I’m not claiming he hasn’t forgotten it, I”m claiming if he did because he didn’t know it was wrong? Then he has faulty empathy responses. 3) If what he did when he pinned the kid down and cut his hair was so traumatic to him AS A BULLY (guilt, shame) that he doesn’t want to remember, fine. Then he should offer up a much more believable apology about how bullying is wrong and shameful, not “pranks.” I believe he knows what he did and thought it wasn’t a big… Read more »
Judging someone ultimately as good or bad is something I am glad no man truly has a right to doing (even if they do anyway). There are just so many things about people we can’t see or know about them to be a proper judge. We can’t see the pain they have gone through and we can’t see the person they can be. I remember reading about Vanessa Williams when she was abused by an 18 year old woman, then reading other cases where even one perpetrator was as young as 9. I asked myself what could compel people so… Read more »
Great and probing essay, Joanna! Excellent question: “Who do we forgive?” Last Yom Kippur (I’m not Jewish but my husband is…okay, whatever…), I wanted to forgive the people who hurt me and made me hold onto a terrible shame…a shame that was more terrible by the fact that I blamed myself for the crimes they committed against me…. (1) I forgave my HS science teacher in my head for trying to ask me out (after all grades were in) after 30 years of holding the scandal inside….I told another retired teacher about the incident and she acknowledged that his behavior… Read more »
I remember when I was a boy, how bent out of shape parents and teachers were about dirt and rain – you’d swear we were playing in plague pits they way they went on. Playing in the creek and football in the mud is a healthy part of “boys being boys”. I disagree that bullying is the same; it is deliberate cruelty and not a healthy part of being a boy, because the bullies are protected by the adults and the targets of their bullying are not. Some adults probably don’t mean it to work out this way but it… Read more »
Perhaps you’re talking about how society equates “boys will be boys” with bullying — but just to be clear, that’s specifically NOT what I’m saying. In fact, I’m saying the same as you – that boys aren’t inherently troublesome and girls aren’t inherently good and pure and the keepers of virtue.
Also, I think “boys will be boys” is actually bad, too, because it leaves no room for little girls to play in the mud and get dirty. It implies that’s a “boy thing” and that is damaging to any girls who want the freedom to do all the things you listed above, or whatever else will get her dirty.
It also excludes boys who don’t like to get dirty from qualifying as “real boys”.
[i]It also excludes boys who don’t like to get dirty from qualifying as “real boys”.[/i]
For example, there’s the notion that boys who have no interest in competitive team sports aren’t “real boys.” This mindset was behind the traditional approach to mandatory boys’ P.E., which imposed nothing but sports (often without any instruction in the sports themselves) but did not offer any sort of exercise program for those boys who were the most in need.
Calvin and Hobbes: PE is state sponsored terrorism. I did what ever I had to to avoid being caught alone by the big kids during PE.
There is a huge difference between exercise and sports and a huge difference between exercise and team sports. For a long time, I thought I was no good at sports. Then I took up taekwondo and weight lifting. I found out that I wasn’t good at team sports. Funny thing is after I took up taekwondo and weight lifting, I was no longer the kid left out or the last one picked. It wasn’t like I got any better at team sports, but a lot of guys felt more confident having an “enforcer” on their team.
One day, there will be a discussion about boys and men that doesn’t include a gratuitous reference to girls and women. One day.
PS WIll you lead the way, Transhuman? You seem to always be pointing out how women are screwing things up for men and how everything is in reference to women. Doesn’t that make you just as guilty?
Thanks for that article Joanna. I objected to a recent article here enjoining men to post their idea of ‘what makes a good man?’ and even in fact to the name of this site/project. It also implies that men are NOT good by nature and need to perform certain ways and get the approval of women to be considered good. Boys will be boy is no different to me then ‘you are one of the good ones’. Men don’t have to earn the qualifier. I asked in that article if we would stand for condescending artiles like ‘hey ladies tell… Read more »
I”m sorry you’ve had experiences that have created all of this inside of you, Michael. As my article says, we are all equally responsible to be good. In naming this project, as far as I know, Tom wasn’t saying that men aren’t inherently good, but that this project would be a tool and a resource and an outlet for those who are on the quest to be better. It is the good MEN project because Tom meant for it to be intended mostly toward men. Not because he thinks only men need it. And there is a Good Women Project,… Read more »
We can say men have done bad things. That doesn’t mean men are bad, and it doesn’t mean women have only done good. Someone has sold you a bill of goods about this all being a zero-sum game. Not surprising considering that about the only time men are allowed identified as men is when some of use screwing something up. A group of soldiers manage to take down one of the most major terrorists in recent history. Not much to say gender wise. A group of Secret Service agents get caught hiring prostitutes. OMG “Are Men Stupid?” and “This Wouldn’t… Read more »
Danny, really? No one completely lost their shit with excitement over the special forces unit that took down Osama bin Ladin??
Please.
I think Danny is saying that no one praised Seal Team Six or for being men. They were praised as Americans, as military, etc…but not specifically as men. Or at least, that’s what I think Danny’s trying to say. I wasn’t in the U.S. at the time so my perspective is a bit different.
Actually, I think we did hear a lot about “the brave men” of Seal Team Six.
But yeah, they didn’t say, “hooray for masculinity for killing Osama Bin Laden”!
But there was a lot about the men themselves. I mean, the team. We don’t know the actual men.
<i.But yeah, they didn’t say, “hooray for masculinity for killing Osama Bin Laden”! And that’s my point. Its apparently okay to generalize men when its something negative but when its something positive well then generalizations are unfair. They were American. They were soldiers. They were anti-terrorists in the truest sense. But they weren’t men. You even see this in the talk over women birth control issues. A man says something against women and first thing that will be mentioned is his gender. A man comes out and supports it and the fact that he’s a man probably won’t even be… Read more »
Excellent point, Danny. Those who talk a lot about gender very seldom have complimentary things to say about males when they do good or even great things. The contrast you drew is an excellent example of the difference.
It’s obvious they were men. Because if there had been a woman in the mix the media would have gone apeshit about how unusual that was and how emasculating it would have been to have a woman kill bin Laden. We expect these heroes to be men. We shame men when they fuck up, and we shame women when they fuck up, and we expect that when they are doing what’s “normal” (being heroes, being soldiers, being good fathers/being supportive, being good mothers) that we all know that’s the gender they are. They were men in the services. Which indicated… Read more »
That being said, it would be a wonderful place to live where both men and women were celebrated for their actions for being the gender they were performing their actions instead of generalizing the negatives. I agree there. We don’t live in that world for anyone. If a woman or a man or a person of color or a gay person “fucks up” then that’s always the qualifier…”see….that woman tut tut. See…that black man…tut tut.” But there are millions of good men, women, people of color, gay folk etc who don’t get celebrated for that qualifier (gender, race). They are… Read more »
When have commentators ever said, “if there were men involved, not just women, this terrible event wouldn’t have occurred?”
When have commentators or others said that we need more men involved to improve the culture of an organization or group?
I’m kinda curious, do women get a level of negativity as a gender, eg when you see stories on violence it’s majority about males and you can get the old male-bashing stuff in it “men are violent” tropes, what would the female equiv be?
Bitches, golddiggers, sluts, bad mothers, sexless (but cheating up), withholding, demanding, too ocd about cleanliness etc etc etc.
abusive and neglectful of children.
I’ll have to try remember and read some news papers etc to spot any. Would be cool to have a site where they list them for the men and the women, common tropes in the news! Wonder if any exist….
Crazy, over-emotional, stupid (academically) but cunning (in a manipulative way), selfish, hysterical (still a word that gets used more for women than men), too beautiful (and thus fake), not beautiful enough (and thus worthless)
I think we need to celebrate bullies who change as well, show people that they can seek some redemption and at least change for the better. I have quite a lot of respect for people who change their abusive ways.
Jane, I don’t think it’s fair to say he is not a Christian. You have no way of knowing of his relationship with a higher power. That is to personal to pass judgement on. I used to hear people say that Catholics would “go to hell” because they don’t believe in “salvation.” Suffice it to say, if there is a hell, I highly doubt Mother Teresa will be there.
He is not a good man. Look at his stint at Bain Capital. If his bullying was one incident – so be it. His life is a connect the dots of questionable morals. He is not a Christian. He is a Mormon. Mormonism uses the name Jesus Christ in their name to blend into society more – look at their doctrine. They follow the Book of Mormon – and believe VERY DIFFERENT things then Christians. Just a fact. Also a random man cheating is one thing but we must hold a man running for political office – especially the office… Read more »
Jane,
It is safe to say that if you would condemn an entire religious group, especially one as large as the Mormon faith, then you have literally no ability to decide who is, or is not, a “good man.”
Jane, your stance on Moromons make you a bigot, unfortunately, and disqualify you from any relevant commentary on the goodness, or not, of Mitt Romney. His character has nothing whatsoever to do with his religion, nor would being “a Christian” be any redeeming part of this character.
Agree in full. The thing lacking is integrity, not the “right” doctrine.
A bigot? Mormons single-handedly financed Prop 8. And you completely ignored anything about his stint at Bain Capital.
and for the record I don’t identify with Religion —–
*any Religion – correction – but have a family member that teaches Religious study at a liberal University and they know quite a bit about Religion and they have taught me A LOT about Mormonism and I was merely correcting Joanna Schroeder for she stated that Mormonism was a sect of Christianity and it is NOT. Because she stated he was a CHristian – he isn’t. It is a fact. Do some research on it. He is not what someone would consider a mainstream Christian – that was my point – so I am not a bigot – thank you… Read more »
Well whether Mormonism is a denomination of Christianity is actually up for debate. A lot of people claim it isn’t, but at the same time a lot of people (including Mormons) claim it is. The Mormon faith doesn’t reject the New Testament, it just adds onto it. If you define Christianity simply as the belief that Jesus was the son of God, than Mormons fit it.
That’s a very loose definition because then some Sunni Muslims would be considered Christians too. They actually have a lot in common with Mormons. In some key ways there are more similarties/commonalities between Mormons and Sunni Muslims than between Mormons and Catholics (for example). Both Mormons and Sunni Muslims believe in Jesus. Sunni Muslims believe him to be the son (metaphorically, of course) of God as do the Mormons. Both are monotheistic; neither accepts the trinity, unlike most churches. Both believe that another prophet came after Jesus and introduced new teachings from God; those teachings were communicated to that prophet… Read more »
“Both Mormons and Sunni Muslims believe in Jesus. Sunni Muslims believe him to be the son (metaphorically, of course) of God as do the Mormons.”
Um, no. Islam teaches that Jesus was a prophet. The Church of Latter-Day Saints teach that Jesus was the Son of God. Islam does not teach that the death of Jesus was an act of great atonement, or that salvation exists through accepting Jesus as a saviour. The Mormon church, however, does preach that Jesus died and was resurrected and that accepting this is what sets you on the path to salvation.
Actually, Islam doesn’t teach that Jesus died and was resurrected at all. Meanwhile the Mormon church does believe in the resurrection and, as I said, that accepting it is necessary to be saved.
I never said that Muslims are or are not Christians. Or that Mormons are or are not Christians. “There are similarities between all Christian denominations and all Muslim sects regarding Jesus.” There are more similarities between Mormonism and Islam than Islam and any other religion. I pointed those similarities out. Only Mormonism and Islam have a subsequent/successor book that is considered necessary for salvation. Belief in Christ and the Bible is not enough. That message was delivered by a later born prophet, and his message was delivered to him by an angel. None of that is true of any other… Read more »
Wikipediat says this regarding Islamic beliefs re: Jesus.
“Jesus ascended bodily to Heaven, there to remain until his Second coming in the End days.”
The point is that there are many similarities between Mormonism and Islam. Everything I said is accurate.
Well of course there are similarities. There are similarities between all Christian denominations and all Muslim sects regarding Jesus. This is why, as I pointed out in my first comment, whether Mormonism is counted as a Christian denomination is up for debate. It is highly dependant on your definition of Christianity. The most basic definition of Christianity is that you believe the Jesus was the Son of God and that his death and resurrection were real events and that accepting those events is necessary to save your eternal soul. Mormonism fits that; Islam does not.
I never said that Muslims are or are not Christians. Or that Mormons are or are not Christians. “There are similarities between all Christian denominations and all Muslim sects regarding Jesus.” There are more similarities between Mormonism and Islam than Islam and any other religion. I pointed those similarities out. Only Mormonism and Islam have a subsequent/successor book that is considered necessary for salvation. Belief in Christ and the Bible is not enough. That message was delivered by a later born prophet, and his message was delivered to him by an angel. None of that is true of any other… Read more »
There are similarities between Catholics and some pagan religions (for lack of a better term at least at the moment I’m thinking of this). Catholics are taught that the communion bread is transformed into the body of Christ, not a representation of the body of Christ. That sounds a lot like ritualistic cannibalism.
“How can there be redemption, how can there be forgiveness, for a sin that one hasn’t truly internalized? How can he come to his god and say, “Wash me clean, Oh Lord” about something he has somehow forgotten?” It doesn’t matter what one says. All that matters is one does. You can say you’re sorry 1,000 times, but correcting your behavior over a period of months and then years is the ONLY real test of repentance. Regarding Romney, you can’t repent for something you don’t know you did. However, you can choose to not do the alleged bad act(s). The… Read more »
“Regarding Romney, you can’t repent for something you didn’t know you did.” Really? Something he “didn’t know he did? It’s not complicated: either he he held down a, gay-appearing classmate and cut his hair with scissors while he screamed so the guys would look less faggy, or he didn’t. Unless he’s a socipath, or has a brain tumour, or was temporarily possessed by the Devil and has no memory of the event—all of which might be relevant to him occupying the White House. How much of an assault IS worthy of being remembered? A rape? A murder? Breaking someone’s arms… Read more »
Sociopaths can remember things….
I’m not excusing any bullying. However, he said he doesn’t remember. You don’t believe him. Fine. I have no idea. However, that WAS 50 years ago. Pretty sure that counts for something.
“How much of an assault IS worthy of being remembered?”
Cutting someone’s hair is rude but it’s not rape or murder, or even a physical assault and battery.
By the way, bullying someone who appears to be a homosexual is no worse than bullying for any other reason.
Actually, it’s a crime. It’s assault. You try wrestling someone to the ground and forcibly cutting their hair without their permission, then try explaining to the cops and the judge that you weren’t committing assault but merely being “rude.”
In answer to your question. It wasn’t rape. It wasn’t murder. It wasn’t breaking someone’s arm The person didn’t claim to have been physically hurt in any way. It was cutting someone’s hair.
Eric, really? NOBODY is saying it was rape or murder but it was VERY clearly assault.
So you’re cool with bullying? You’d be fine if a group of kids SAT ON YOUR KID and cut his or her hair?
Sometimes, Eric, I think you’re the smartest man in a conversation. You see things that so many other people miss.
Other times I think you really damage your credibility by digging in your heels and refusing to see logic in the quest to defend your obscure point, based in hypothetical possibilities.
Even Romney doesn’t deny it happened! Why are you!?
Fine, you want to call it assault but it was cutting someone’s hair. “So you’re cool with bullying? You’d be fine if a group of kids SAT ON YOUR KID and cut his or her hair? ” Where did I say that? Let me quote Eric M. for you. “I’m not excusing any bullying.” No, I wouldn’t like that, but I would be far more troubled if they were raped, shot, stabbed, or murdered. A little easier to recover from a haircut than any of those. “Even Romney doesn’t deny it happened! Why are you!?” Please quote where I “deny… Read more »
You mean Hugo, Eric? Go for it. I couldn’t care less if you bring something only tangentially related into this argument, I’m not Hugo’s PR person, I’m simply his friend. If you want to stay on the subject of bullying and what we should consider “good” as far as a presidential candidate, that might be a better idea. Finally, I’m glad you’re not excusing bullying, but it sure sounds like you’re minimizing what would now be considered a hate crime. Of course it’s not as bad as rape or murder. Why even say that? What’s the point? To minimize the… Read more »
“You mean Hugo, Eric?” No, the conversation you and I recently had. “Go for it. I couldn’t care less, I’m not Hugo’s PR person, I’m simply his friend.” I don’t know the man but he has expressed many grossly misandristic opinions. “Finally, I’m glad you’re not excusing bullying, but it sure sounds like you’re minimizing what would now be considered a hate crime.” Why, because he had dyed his hair? Really? “Of course it’s not as bad as rape or murder. Why even say that? What’s the point? To minimize the pain of those gay teens who are tormented?” Because… Read more »
The reason we’re bringing this to light is because he is a presidential candidate running on a platform of “morality” in arenas such as religion, homosexuality, and abortion. So people are talking about his brand of “morality” and as I said, if he were to admit responsibility, I’d be completely willing to say “it’s in the past” for something that happened 50 years ago. But he isn’t willing to. And straight kids that are bullied are given attention all the time – see the movie Bully for instance. That movie is probably the biggest step of the mainstream media toward… Read more »
“The reason we’re bringing this to light is because he is a presidential candidate running on a platform of “morality” in arenas such as religion, homosexuality, and abortion.” I have no problem with it being commented on. However, it’s simply not possible to know for a 100% certainty that someone remembers cutting someone else’s hair 50 years ago. And, the extreme anger of some is disproportionate to the event, in light of them expressing little to no concern about far worse things that happened today. (I’m not referring expressly to you or anyone in particular) “And straight kids that are… Read more »
This wasn’t “hair cutting,” it was physically assaulting a student suspected of being gay–holding him forcibly down on the ground an cutting his hair because Romney thought he looked effeminate. It became an assault the minute Romney laid his hands on him and pushed him to the ground. You say “I’m not excusing any bullying,” but your entire series of comments is an excuse for this bullying. You excuse it by minimizing not only the motivation, but the assault itself. You strike me as the sort of person who would say about a fat kid who was chased home every… Read more »
Hi everyone,
Just a friendly reminder that we keep discussions away from personal insults and on the topic at hand. We understand this is a deeply personal issue for many people, and we ask that everyone respect each other in light of that. Thanks.
Wow, back the truck up Michael, I am discussing how a person can forget events and you want to lump me in as a supporter of this guy? I really do not care about him, Don’t care if he wins or loses, quite frankly Obama seems fine so I’d rather him win based on what little I know of American politics. I am trying to get you to calm down for 2 seconds use your brain, try to understand MEMORY CAN BE FICKLE. You equated people that forget such activities to being sociopaths, I’ve forgotten stuff I’ve done in my… Read more »
”This wasn’t “hair cutting,” it was physically assaulting a student suspected of being gay–holding him forcibly down on the ground an cutting his hair because Romney thought he looked effeminate.” So, as, I said, he allegedly cut the kids hair. That’s the bottom line here. His hair grew back 50 years ago. He had no broken bones or even bruises. Was it wrong? Sure. But, you’re view is out of proportion to what allegedly happened. “You say “I’m not excusing any bullying,” but your entire series of comments is an excuse for this bullying.” I can guarantee you that millions… Read more »
Eric,
If you look at the rest of Michael Rowe’s comments in this thread, it’s clear that he’s only willing to see black-and-white on this issue.
The possibility that the victim is mis-remembering what actually transpired, out of honest mistake and 50 years space, along with the natural tendency of all of us to distort our own memories, does not occur to Mr. Rowe.
As a result, Mr. Rowe is bestowing upon the victim a God-like quality that you won’t be able to talk him out of. It’s probably not worth pursuing further.
Mike, no one needs Godlike qualities in order to remember being physically assaulted in what would now correctly be labelled a hate crime. The fact that a would-be president of the United States “can’t remember” committing one, and that some people think that’s normal, is disturbing beyond belief.
Does a hate-crime make an assault more memorable? Yes it’s possible and quite probable that most people would remember being assaulted, but there are those who don’t remember. It’s disturbing IF he committed one, but quite frankly I can’t fault a person for forgetting an event in their life. If memory were how you thought it to be, I could understand why you’d fault them, but seriously Michael you need to stop assuming everyone has the same ability to store and recall information. Yes it’s normal for some people to not remember every single significant event in their life, hell… Read more »
If his mental capacity is reducing, he shouldn’t be running for President.
Good point, I’m a lil shocked a 65 year old is allowed to run for president if mental capacity is diminishing, wouldn’t it be better for a mentally and physically fit person of high education and know how in the politics world be a better fit, 35-55ish? But I guess that depends on the individual too, are there health checks?:P
Look at Reagan. he was developing Dementia.
I heard he gave another kid an atomic wedgie and took a Polaroid of it. He claims he doesn’t remember that either.
Eric, just because there’s a possibility he doesn’t remember doesn’t make it even remotely probable.
You’re stubbornly sitting in the position of the “possibility” when in reality, if you put some thought into it, you’d realize how silly the idea of a grown man not remembering an assault truly is.
Let’s be logical here. Sure, point out that there’s a theoretical possibility he doesn’t remember, but don’t camp on that teeny possibility. It just makes you look like you care more about being contrary than actually having a real discussion.
Probable? I don’t know. But, anything is possible. But, again, it was cutting someone’s hair 50 years ago. I can tell you that there are many things that I don’t remember from 5 or 10 years ago.
It was hair cutting. Not rape, not murder, not stabbing, not shooting, not breaking someone’s bones, not DWI/DUI; it was cutting someone’s hair. Hair. 50 years ago.
“You’re stubbornly sitting in the position of the “possibility” when in reality, if you put some thought into it, you’d realize how silly the idea of a grown man not remembering an assault truly is.” Actually this is the silliest thing I’ve heard all day. Do people have perfect memories where you are from? I must have an amazingly bad memory but it really is not that rare for someone to forget such events. FIFTY years have passed people, 5 decades, a lot can happen in 50 years. I now fully expect everyone here to recall every incident of bullying… Read more »
@ Eric M
“It doesn’t matter what one says. All that matters is one does.”
Sure it does. If he remembers and he says that he doesn’t, then he is lying. He didn’t refuse to answer.
“The act of organizing a group of people and sitting on a boy to cut his hair… there’s just no way he has forgotten it. It’s not the same as verbal taunts. ”
This, exactly. And if it were a Liberal attack, I doubt he would counter with the ole “If I did it I’m sorry spiel.” The problem for me now, is that if he does come back with a second, more heartfelt apology, it will be tainted by this half-assed first attempt to put a lid on it.
Out of curiosity: what is the obsession with the idea that Mitt Romney “has to remember”? I’m 28, I don’t know what it’s like to be in your 60s, but part of me cannot help suspecting that 50 years could probably lead you to forget most anything. Why can’t we believe that he honestly doesn’t remember? Speaking as someone who was regularly taunted for being short, I would believe the statement of anyone who taunted me if they said they could not recall any particular instance. I have pretty clear memories of once being surrounded by a group of 4… Read more »
I’m only speaking for myself here, but I believe that if we truly feel remorse for something, we accept that we either did it or that it likely happened – and then we take responsibility. The act of organizing a group of people and sitting on a boy to cut his hair… there’s just no way he has forgotten it. It’s not the same as verbal taunts. So to me, there are three possibilities here: 1. He remembers, and is lying per his “spin machine” and their advice. 2. He doesn’t remember, due to the fact that he did equally… Read more »
Joanna, you can remember ever detail of the prom instance. This makes perfect sense, because as you said, you felt remorse. I once (IN FIRST GRADE!!) gave someone a titty-twister to get closer to the class hamster cage, and made her cry. To this DAY I remember how ashamed I felt for doing that!!
Joanna, Thank you for replying. It still seems like you are trying to force this into a black and white situation in which it most probably is not. Anyone who has ever read court records knows that the exact same event is often remembered VERY differently, by all of those involved. It’s also well established that victims often ascribe near-supernatural powers to their attackers in memory, including embellishments which simply did not occur at the time. It’s important to emphasize, all of this is perfectly natural. Different memories does not mean anyone is lying. We all experience events differently, that’s… Read more »
Sounds like you ALL speak from the privilege of having a decent memory. I don’t remember many things I’ve done in school, 10 years later I’ve forgotten and I know I’ve done some bad stuff, I also don’t remember the majority of my bullying experiences, I barely remember what happened last week. Please don’t assume those who forgot to be sociopaths, not everyone has the same memory, same brain, stores the same thoughts, thinks of the same things as important. It’s a bad reflection on yourselves to cast such a negative judgment, jump straight to the conclusions of him being… Read more »
You partly right, Archy. We speak from the privilege of never having committed a hate crime, or hate-related assault on a fellow student. This absolves us of having to “not remember” doing it. It’s sort of great, actually.
“You partly right, Archy. We speak from the privilege of never having committed a hate crime, or hate-related assault on a fellow student. This absolves us of having to “not remember” doing it. It’s sort of great, actually.” Never bullied someone, taunted them, got into fights? Even in primary school? I can partly remember teasing someone because they were weird in primary school, remember teasing someone in highschool but don’t remember the jist of it or what happened fully. I copped bullying every day pretty much, lots of verbal, some sexual assault/groping of my manboobs, tripped by someone and broke… Read more »
“I copped bullying every day pretty much, lots of verbal, some sexual assault/groping of my manboobs, tripped by someone and broke my wrist but I truly wouldn’t be surprised if many of those bullies didn’t remember much of it. It’s a long time ago, I only remember fragments myself. Even the time I was hit by a teacher and thrown from my desk into a cupboard I can barely remember it, a glimpse here n there. ” And this is NOT ok. If you don’t remember and they don’t remember, then the culture of your childhood in school was such… Read more »
I’m wondering if the sociopathy lasted though, I had a period of time where I enjoyed bullying as it felt nice to inflict some pain back but realized later it was bad and I didn’t have the heart for it. Because it was one incident it makes me question whether he was a sociopath, to me it seems too quick to judge. If it was a string of incidents (was it? haven’t heard any more on it) then yeah something is wrong. So was it a learned behaviour, or part of him? Is it still in him or was it… Read more »
“I had a period of time where I enjoyed bullying as it felt nice to inflict some pain back but realized later it was bad and I didn’t have the heart for it.”
You know when I read this line. It just reminds me how my friend kept hoping that if I got even with her everything would go back to normal. Getting even doesn’t make the pain go away and it doesn’t put things back into balance.
Well I felt bad because I did it to others who didn’t do anything to me, innocent bystanders caught up in the cycle of abuse. It felt great actually to lay the smackdown or retaliate against a bully, I’ve thrown a few against walls, punched them etc after reaching my limit with their bullshit. It actually boosted my self-esteem and made me feel like I took back some power, especially since those bullies didn’t bully me after that. Sadly sometimes it’s neccessary to take matters into your own hands and really scare the shit out of a bully, do something… Read more »
If you actually read the comments, Archy, you’ll see where I’ve said I don’t believe he’s a sociopath. I believe he’s a liar.
Ahh in that case, my bad. I’m on the fence for this one, the younger he was though the more likely I’d think he’d remember it, but then again I’m mid 20’s and my memory is terrible. Hopefully he’ll do good on behalf of bully victims and perpetrators though, he obviously knows his pranks can cause harm so I’d hope he’d step up to the plate and help folks out.
The act of organizing a group of people and sitting on a boy to cut his hair… there’s just no way he has forgotten it. It’s not the same as verbal taunts. So to me, there are three possibilities here: 1. He remembers, and is lying per his “spin machine” and their advice. 2. He doesn’t remember, due to the fact that he did equally horrifying, or possibly worse, things to other people and this is just one of those times that wasn’t so bad. or 3. This is a complete fabrication by liberals who want to falsely attack him.… Read more »
Okay, so if this event had happened at a group home for boys, I might buy this reasoning, Danny. But this happened at Cranbrook. And Romney was the Governor’s son. And everyone agrees he was the big man on campus there. Are you insinuating that he’s somehow traumatized from his time there and has blocked out what he did to other kids as a survival mechanism? Or am I misunderstanding. Certainly there’s the possibility that he was abused by someone there, but there is absolutely no indication of that. And if you mean that maybe this event was lost in… Read more »
Joanna,
What does “And Romney was the Governor’s son. And everyone agrees he was the big man on campus there” have to do with whether an event is memorable or not?
I would like to politely suggest that it seems like there some desire for Romney to be “guilty” here for reasons that have nothing to do with the bullying, and everything to do with being born into privilege.
Maybe. Except I was born into privilege, too. I’m a white woman whose grandmothers went to college. Every single person in my family for three generations (with the exception of one uncle) have graduate degrees. It’s a stupid amount of privilege, but it’s real. What I’m saying is that by all accounts, he did not suffer at Cranbrook. Again, I leave room for many things that could have been happening behind the scenes. But as far as we know, Romney had a charmed life. As did I. I don’t resent him the charmed life. I resent that he doesn’t seem… Read more »
I appreciate what you are saying, and I tried to keep my comment general because I really wasn’t referring to you specifically: virtually all coverage, on all media outlets, has referred to Romney’s privilege in some manner when discussing this issue. I would like to respond in two ways. First, it’s important to point out that it’s entirely possible to resent privilege even if you are born into it. That’s the basic idea behind “white guilt” and why it is so problematic. Second, really my question is: why bring up the privilege at all? It seems like a total non… Read more »
There’s the possibility he copped horrific abuse at home and/or major pressure to succeed as his father had? This is the problem with jumping to conclusions on a person’s character, unless you know their life story it becomes quite a gamble.
Are you insinuating that he’s somehow traumatized from his time there and has blocked out what he did to other kids as a survival mechanism? Or am I misunderstanding. Possible. Certainly there’s the possibility that he was abused by someone there, but there is absolutely no indication of that. It wouldn’t be the first time a male didn’t speak up about his abuse until several decades later. And if you mean that maybe this event was lost in his memory because he was committing so many like it — I’m not sure that really does anything better for his character.… Read more »
You have to realize Joanna that how you remember your experience of life, and how others remember their own can be wildly different. There is no guarantee that someone will remember an event especially 50 years later, and what you see as a horrible act may at the time have been seen as the experience of growing up (stupid I know) which would really could make it less likely he’d remember much about it. I don’t know him, don’t care about him, I’d vote for Obama anyway if I were an American. I am here to suggest memory isn’t black… Read more »
Any sane adult man would remember holding down a weaker man who was screaming for help and forcibly cutting his hair in front of a jeering audience. If Mitt Romney genuinely “can’t remember” doing that, then the argument could be made that he is, in fact, a sociopath for who the notion of right and wrong are entirely irrelevant, and therefore not worth remembering. I’m not making that case, however, so the fact that he’s merely lying makes more sense to me.
I completely agree, Michael.
That’s why his “I can’t remember” troubles almost everybody.
And it’s not age. My Uncle was the exact same age in ’65 and says “Of COURSE he remembers!”
This man committed an assault. He remembers. I can say that here in the comments where it doesn’t “count”… Also, as he is a Christian – than he knows that regardless of what he says here on Earth, if his heavenly maker exists as he believes he does, then he will have someone to answer to for these actions.
What is his medical history like? Is his memory generally good at recalling events? We’d all love to think any “sane” man would remember such events but maybe think about memory itself without assuming every incident can be recalled, no matter how traumatic. Unless you can give me a run down of every single major event in your life, every fight, every argument, then can you honestly say a sane person MUST remember?
Yes. Unless they’ve committed so many assaults that they all run together. It’s not that complicated.
I’m sorry but I think you have an overly optimistic view of the human mind and memory. I suggest talking to people and finding out what they remember, of the last few I’ve talked to they’ve all shown problems with memory even for events like that. On the comments here you have myself giving my own experience with memory loss, pretty sure others have commented too similarly.
So do you recall EVERY fight, argument, etc? If so then can I have your memory ability, I’m sick of needing notepads:P
No, I can’t recall every fight or argument, but can certainly recall never having committed a hate crime or physical assault involving scissors and a screaming boy. I’d remember something like that. And if I didn’t remember it–if it had been wiped from my mind and memory–I would deny it hotly. I would only say “I don’t remember” if I did remember and wanted to deny it, but hedge my bets in case anyone who witnessed it came forward. Likewise, if I did remember it but wanted to deny it, I’d do exactly what Romney did, and contact past classmates… Read more »
Now that makes more sense, thank-you. If you’ve said it before I must have misread it. I’m trying to think what I would do in that situation if I didn’t remember, I’d probably say something like I don’t remember but if I did do it then I am truly sorry. I’ve seen something similar in his apology speech I posted earlier. Haven’t seen the stuff on him contacting past members to vouch, do you have a link for that? I live in Australia so it’s not big news here, we’ve got other dramas going on like a heated up international… Read more »
“Yes. Unless they’ve committed so many assaults that they all run together. It’s not that complicated.” I had that same thought. Perhaps there were so many pranks that it’s hard to distinguish one from the other. Romney did say that he “did a lot of stupid things” at that age, so maybe they kind of blur together. It’s entirely possible he doesn’t remember, but that’s not necessarily a good sign. I’m not defending the pranks, but I don’t think this makes Romney a sociopath, really. 18 year olds ensnared in a school clique are not generally known for their empathy… Read more »
Mike, maybe if you had been physically assaulted by them for appearing gay at a time in U.S. history where it was still illegal in many places to be gay, instead of just being “taunted” for “being short,” your memory might be sharper.
Yeah, I’m not really interested in playing the “oppression olympics” Michael, and I’m not going to buy into an argument that depends on it.
That’s good, Mike, because if it came down to being teased for your height or physically assaulted for you sexual orientation, you’d get your ass kicked into next year in the “oppression Olympics.”
What about physically assaulted for your height or size?
@john hall … I’m 58 and can honestly tell you that I don’t remember a lot of things from my childhood. I do remember a lot of good times but very few bad. I’m sure if I sit quietly in my den and think, a lot of things may come to surface. I do remember my rather aggressive retaliations against the guys my now wife dated. Perhaps they stay in my mind because those events centered around the women I was and am madly in love with. It bothers me that this Mitt thing keeps surfacing …. All this leads… Read more »