A video of a talk by John Stoltenberg who explains how homophobia and misogyny are intertwined.
HeatherN, Good Men Project contributor, found the video and frames it this way: “Of my circle of friends and acquaintances, the majority are men. Of those men, the majority are gay. In other words, the demographics of my friends are skewed in a very queer direction. One might think this would mean that they’re also skewed in a feminist direction, but that’s not the case. There is an assumption that because gay men aren’t sexually attracted to women, they are much less likely to be sexist or misogynistic.* Yolo Aliki’s article here at GMP shows that assumption is actually a misconception, and that gay men are fully capable of misogynistic and sexist behaviour.
I was recently linked to the video above of a lecture given at a university symposium by John Stoltenberg in which he explains his “Game Theory of Gender.” It simply, but effectively, boils down some of the main cultural pressures which create and perpetuate misogyny, specifically gay male misogyny. It’s worth a watch precisely because though it doesn’t let anyone off the hook for their actions, it isn’t about trying to place blame.
* Interesting side note: the reverse is not true. The most common misconception about lesbian attitudes towards men is that they’re all man haters. There’s another article in that somewhere, I’m sure of it.”
We have to admit that the sexual assault things go both ways in the LBGT community. I have been sexually assaulted twice by women in lesbian bars, and I have seen other gay guys getting their asses grabbed as a joke by lesbians but they didn’t find it at all funny. A clear message needs to be made that sexual assault between gay men and lesbians is very bothersome and certainly not funny. I have commented elsewhere about John Stoltenberg’s video in the past, and I do not wish to watch it again, but I don’t think that the type… Read more »
I think this article and vid ignores a lot and assumes a lot. A similar article in 2011 “femmephobia” exploded a ton of comments and with good reason. The reason gay men are more maligned than gay women has very very little to do with hatred of women and everything to do with (perceived) weak men. Weak men cannot be utilizable to others. Female-bodied women are valued for their bodies (and I’ll admit that brings a whole host of other issues about objectification & discrimination that I mostly agree with). Men are valued for being utlizable. How does a woman… Read more »
I agree that cultural misogyny is one reason for homophobia against gay men, machismo, male-male violence etc and it needs to be discussed and not bought into. I liked the video overall for its analysis of this aspect of masculinity. However, symbolized and feared femininity certainly isn’t THE reason why machismo happens or gay men suffer prejudice – it is just the most salient one to women because it directly affects them – whereas interior policing of masculinity doesn’t and is more mysterious. I’ve been a perpetrator and a victim in this rubbish – and I know it was more… Read more »
A lot could be said of women taking over the debate of gay MALE’s and the homophobia they experience, I find it especially tasteless to dry draw the issue back to how women suffer.
HeatherN: All that hard work you do here gone up in smoke in a single post.
How utterly dismissive of you, imho, even an apology won’t cut it becuase that apology would come off as “not being heart felt”
John, I love it. We don’t need women, feminists, or gay people ‘to splain” our experience as males and tell us what to think. Although I would encourage HeatherN to keep writing about the gay woman’s feminist experience.
We need many voices in our global discussion. Thanks Heather, stay strong eventhough the majority rules here.
I didn’t realize that lesbians had the sole authority on deciding what people are thinking when it comes to homophobia and misogyny.
Ill respond more in full when I get to a PC later but here is the snark for now.?
Well lesbians get the oppression double whammy, female + homosexual so their words are obviously more important than any male or even a gay male! They’re the authority on what men’s lives are like, especially gay men. That enough snark for ya?:P
I don’t know that I’d agree that hatred of gay men is associated with misogyny. That would mean that lesbians should have an elevated place among women, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. I think it has more to do with not conforming to gender norms than hatred of a gender. As far as “gay men are fully capable of misogynistic and sexist behavior.” Why am I not surprised that gay men could react like every other human being? Could someone’s experience make then hyper sensitive to sexist behavior or are there so many different kinds of sexist… Read more »
I don’t know that I’d agree that hatred of gay men is associated with misogyny. Same here. There may be some link to it but no more of a link between homophobia towards gay women would be misandry. When someone commits some form of homophobia against a man the first very first thought before all others is the person they are about to go after is not doing manhood right. This preceeds any and attempts at hatred towards women. While the homophobia can and probably often does take on the form of something that exhibits hatred towards women the hatred… Read more »
Thanks, straight cis-men, for explaining to us all how homophobia and misogyny works. That is snark. And the reason that is snark is because I’ve had this conversation so many times and it’s frustrating. So, thus, I’ve responded with some snark. But now that I’ve got the snark out of my system, I’m going to try to explain it once again. First, I think taking a look at the video would be wicked helpful. You’ll notice that Stoltenberg’s “Game Theory of Gender” focuses on the dynamic in which men are trying to prove their manliness to each other. Men trying… Read more »
“Thanks, straight cis-men, for explaining to us all how homophobia and misogyny works.”
Well feminist, if misogyny and homophobia is coming from straight CIS men as many feminists claim, who would be able to explain it better? It’s ironic how people claim that someone else’s experience doesn’t give them insight into theirs while simultaneously telling that person how that person’s life experiences shape their perceptions. Amazing, but not surprising.
and people wonder why so many men are uninterested in even discussing this stuff when their opinions are flat-out denied because 1, they have a dick, and 2, they happen to be straight. Wanna learn about homophobia? Talk to hardened catholics, you’ll learn a shitload of why they hate gays, I sure did and a lot of it has to do with family, having 1 male, 1 female to raise a child, the bible’s views on sin with homosexuality and probably their own insecurity n fears that a gay person will rape them. The nature element is very very heavy… Read more »
Heather’s comments represent everything that’s wrong with the cultural left.
In so many words, what they’re basically saying is, “you’re male and straight, you don’t know sh*t! I’m marginalized so STFU and agree with what I say!”
And then they turn around and wonder why most men simply tune them out.
“2. you don’t like the feminine”
Most traditional macho men don’t hate the feminine. They just don’t want to be the feminine, otherwise all traditional macho men would be gay or celibate, which would make the masculine feminine and the universe would implode from the paradox and we know that’s not happening.
HeatherN, I think there was some merit to what Danny shared. The snark was unnecessary, and invoking identity politics so strongly can turn things sour. I think you probably have some good insight, and I wish you would share it more constructively.
“Thanks, straight cis-men, for explaining to us all how homophobia and misogyny works.” No Heather, just no. Just because you are homosexual DOES NOT GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO TREAT HETEROSEXUAL opinions as lesser. Get off your high horse. You’re female, how the hell do you have any better idea of homophobia amongst men than men whom have probably witnessed far more of it since they’re…I dunno, raised as male, probably surrounded by men including homophobic men and can get a great understanding from that alone? That sentence alone makes me truly want to disengage from future debate with you… Read more »
How exactly does a lesbian understand homophobia AMONGST MEN WHEN SHE IS NOT A MALE?
Don’t you know, Archy? Members of “oppressed classes” are omniscient, and can can speak with authority on the experiences of “oppressor classes.”
Members of “oppressed classes” are omniscient, and can speak with authority on the experiences of “oppressor classes.” To add to this discussion from the Judeo-Christian perspective which may shed light on why the Vatican and so many people are tired with gay rights talk, as Archy alluded. The Church doesn’t view gay people as ‘oppressed’. They are sinners, like the rest of us. The whole concept of gay rights and sexual oppression is born out of Feminist-Marxist theory, which was debunked years ago. According to the Bible, people of faith were ‘oppressed’ by Rome or the government. (For intellectual or… Read more »
HeatherN: “Thanks, straight cis-men, for explaining to us all how homophobia and misogyny works. That is snark. And the reason that is snark is because I’ve had this conversation so many times and it’s frustrating. So, thus, I’ve responded with some snark. But now that I’ve got the snark out of my system, I’m going to try to explain it once again.” And this here is why your movement is never taken seriously at best or dismissed at worst. Where is the snark warranted? Not to mention invoking cis-straight men as an insult? This is what’s frustrating because, aside from… Read more »
“And our culture has tied sexuality and gender so closely together, that homosexuality is associated with the feminine. ” And this is why, Heather, you as a straight woman should just shut up about homophobia. Becasue I can tell you that the core of homophobia is failure to want and then to get the girl, the failure to meet that performance standard, which by the way has no parallel in femnale experience since women are not expected to go out and get the man and are not shamed and degraded when they failure to get the man. When is the… Read more »
And this is why, Heather, you as a straight woman should just shut up about homophobia.
Hold on there Ginkgo. As far know Heather is a lesbian. I totally feel the rage on this post and her comments but let’s not start trying to tell people what their identities are.
So what does being a lesbian teach anyone about the homophobia men face?
No. This is just another woman appropriating gay men’s issues and then presuming to lecture us on them. Unaccepable.
“Thanks, straight cis-men, for explaining to us all how homophobia and misogyny works.”
Please, woman, draw upon your authoritative knowledge of men’s experience to tell us more about what we think, and why. As objects devoid of subjective qualia, we have no access to this information unless a woman is generous enough to ‘splain it to us.
“Thanks, straight cis-men, for explaining to us all how homophobia and misogyny works.”
That is unbelievably ironic coming from a woman writing on a site that is (in theory anyway) supposed to be about men’s issues.
Just how many times have you and Joanna butted in to tell men that our experiences as men don’t match up to what your (second hand) experiences tell you?
Well, Heather, I may not have studied feminist/queer/cultural leftist social justice studies like you, but I do know a thing or two about history. Ancient Greece was one of the most gay friendly societies in the history of the world, and it was also one of the most patriarchal, particularly in Athens. If you read Plato’s symposium, much of the discussion revolves around expressing love for boys. The medieval Iranian satirist Obeyd Zakani’s work featured descriptions of slave owners having gay sex with Turkish slave boys, and I don’t recall it featuring much homophobia. I also think it goes without… Read more »
“And our culture has tied sexuality and gender so closely together, that homosexuality is associated with the feminine.”
To add a different historical perspective, although inflammatory to the PC crowd, the Judeo-Christian culture does not associate homosexuality with the feminine. In the Bible, homosexuality is associated with unnatural acts and sexual impurity. Misogyny is considered depravity and evil. Homophobia is fearing God’s wrath for one’s disobedience to His laws.
That’s the watered down version of how others may view this topic. The intent is to add respectful constructive discussion from various points of view, no personal attacks are intended.
About ancient Greece, homosexuality, and misogyny In Greece, the so-called cradle of Western democracy, women were held in such great contempt that male homosexuality was promoted as a better alternative that thrived alongside sex with several classes of prostitutes. Although the homosexual relationship mimicked the dominant and subservient role ”“ the manly man was powerful while the feminine role was always played by a slave. Athens was notorious for its lax attitudes regarding sexuality but ”˜free love’ was only free for men. In fact, an adulterous wife could be thrown out of her house naked or be killed. Athens even… Read more »
There are some lesbians who are misandrist, and some gay men who are misogynist. Homosexuals are not ALL free from sexism. I’ve seen some utterly disgusting comments where a lesbian talks of a penis, or a gaymale (what’s the right term?) talks of a vagina as if it’s the epitome of grotesque. I can understand not being attracted to someone of the same sex for me in particular but I don’t think a penis is ugly or disgusting. If I were not attracted to women I wouldn’t think of it as disgusting or whatever, just neutral. Could the sexism come… Read more »