Today’s good comment is from a few weeks ago, but it was incisive enough for me to think of it when I read this piece by Jeremy Paul Gordon over at The Hairpin.
The comment was on a post I’d written about the purported “infidelity gene” and commenter Henry Vandenburgh brought up a really great subject:
I liked the article, above. What I don’t like is that the word “creepy” is getting a lot of play lately in taliking about fairly common forms of sexuality. (Obviously not incest, but many other things.) It’s usually used by women commenters.
As a woman writing for a men’s mag—a job that’s made me reevaluate my genderized tendencies more than I ever thought possible—this took me aback. It wasn’t even something that had ever crossed my mind. Was I playing too fast and loose with a word that Gordon dubbed “the worst thing a woman can call a man”?
Here’s his take:
Without a doubt, creepy is the worst casual insult that can be tossed at a guy. A guy can publicly scoff at something you say and be a “douchebag”; sleep with your best friend, never call her back and become an “asshole”; or cry while listening to Neutral Milk Hotel and forever be a “pussy.” But creepy is not that simple. It doesn’t relate to someone’s appearance, actions, or behavior. More accurately, creepy is a vibe. You can’t define it—you just know it. It’s when a guy looks at a girl for a little too long, when he friends her on Facebook a little too quickly, when he doesn’t understand that no actually means no, not “try harder.” It’s a tag that isn’t easily dispelled—after all, what are you supposed to say? “I’m not creepy! I’m NORMAL! I say normal things and act like a human being!”
For me, “creepy” had always been a word from childhood. The rubber Halloween spider stuffed at the bottom of our toy box? Creepy. That goopy half-liquid, half-solid Gak stuff? Creepy. Kissing boys? Really, really creepy. (And from what I’ve heard from boys in elementary school, vice versa.)
It wasn’t until middle school that the adjective became ubiquitous and applicable to guys in a less innocent (read: truly derogatory) sense. But even then, the weight of the word was never heavier than any other insult I’d shoot back at the boys mocking my inability to jump over a hurdle in gym class.
But it seems I was wrong.
So thank you, Henry, for making me think twice about how I use my words and for speaking for good men as a whole. How about the rest of you, readers? What are your thoughts on the “creepy factor”? Have any stories?
About Lu Fong
“Creepy” to me defines men who don’t understand boundaries (like the hideous comment from the poster above). So when the commenter you quote says:
“It’s when a guy looks at a girl for a little too long, when he friends her on Facebook a little too quickly, when he doesn’t understand that no actually means no, not “try harder.””
then complains that the label is hard to dispel, I think that’s wrong. Understanding that “no” means no is not rocket science. Staring at people is rude and can be very threatening from a man to a woman depending upon context (such as standing alone on a subway platform). Being overeager is one thing, but if you friend someone on a social network and then go on to invade their personal space by posting inappropriately personal comments, etc., then yes, you are creepy and deserve that label.
The problem is that yes, these actions are often “normal” in our society. Men are supposed to push women’s boundaries because after all, women don’t really *want* to have sex, so men just need to wear down their resolve until they capitulate. (Sarcasm alert if it isn’t obvious.)
So I think Ms. Fong can use “creepy” all she wants, especially if she’s supporting the label with reasons someone has violated another person’s boundaries, and I would say in the original context, where the allusion was to incest, we’re certainly talking about violating boundaries. (The pumpkin pie thing, though, I have to say is just weird, not creepy!)
It is. Being called “creepy” or a “creeper” is the worst thing a guy can be called, even in jest. You feel like you have to explain your actions, words, or whatever prompted being called creepy, but there’s nothing you can do.
Thanks, both, for the great comments.
What resonated with me the most was the thought that it’s something too subtle to avoid. And something that stays with you. Almost like accidentally finding yourself with an awful nickname that you can’t shake.
Here are a few questions I’ve thought of since this morning:
Is it really easier to avoid being called a douschebag than to avoid being called “creepy”?
What’s the “creepy” equivalent for women?
At least in my experience, it’s easier to avoid being called “creepy” than a “douchebag” or a “dick” or etc. The first thing requires blatant and continued disregard for social norms and the comfort of women. The latter requires thoughtlessness or ignorance. I’ve done things that women have called me out on, but once they do so, I listen to see how they might have felt threatened or hurt. I’ve never been called “creepy” and I think that’s part of why. (I’m in my thirties, so I have some experience, but this may vary between different social circles.)
As to the equivalent for women, some people may disagree, but I think that since women are generally not in a position to abuse their power over men to make them uncomfortable, there’s less of a commonly used, similar description. However, I have encountered some women who have made me feel uncomfortable and sexually harassed, and yes, I would characterize them as “creepy” without hesitation. The difference is just that they don’t have society’s norms in their favor like we men often do.
My take is that “bitch” or “cunt” might be closest to “creep” for women. They’re both terms that, at least hypothetically, can contain a definite social denotation, but are pejorative and open-ended enough to basically say “I hate her”.
“Bitch” and “cunt” are words that have more to do with anger than a “creepy vibe”. The words are more closely related to “dick” or “douchebag”. They do imply that you might “hate her”, but they don’t have the same essence as creepy. Some people don’t necessarily hate creepy women and/or girls. They simply avoid as much contact as possible.
I knew a girl that would stand on my friend’s front lawn at 3:00am, because she knew that my friend knew me. THAT is creepy.
I have to agree with Malcolm to a degree and say that “creepy” is both easier and harder to avoid. I know girls that will call a guy creepy if he makes them feel uncomfortable even once, while this can be fine if the guy is actually creepy. However, guys I know have been called creepy after making a single stupid comment or a single slip of the tongue. It sticks with them and harms their reputation in ways that one word shouldn’t be able to.
I knew two guys at college who were labeled “creepy” in freshman year. It was incredibly harmful to their social lives, and the label still follows at least one of them — I have defended him to alumni (“Oh, I hung out with ___.” “Who?” “…” “Oh, CREEPY ___?” “Yeah, he’s not creepy anymore.”). At the height of it, they stared, made strange sexual comments, and also just conveyed this feeling of intention behind their words — not necessarily sexual intention, but the feeling that they had *thought* about this conversation and what it might mean for their future and ultimate happiness.
One left the school. The other stayed, found success in academics, spent time with a club composed of confident, manly men, and then lived in a house with girls for a year. I think it helped dismantle the GIRL pedestal and show that sometimes a conversation is just a conversation. It was good that these girls were respectful, forgiving, and willing to say, “I don’t like you that way. But I will hang out with you and eat breakfast with you as long as you don’t make that comment again.”
I think an equivalent for women is “slut.” It carries a lot of meaning, can be bestowed on girls who give off a certain vibe, will result in being ostracized from both boys and girls, and is hard to get rid of. On the other hand, certain guys may be more attracted to “slutty” girls. Not so with creeps. :/
Eleanor, the ‘slut’ parallel is a good one, except unfortunately women who are active sexually and enjoy some agency with their sexuality get that label. I am trying to think of an equivalent positive characteristic that gets men called ‘creepy.’ Maybe it is there, but I can’t find it?
And yes, the stickiness of the word is a good point. I still maintain that many times guys deserve that term (like that linked article above, in which the guy thought he was getting to sleep with the girl and acted bewildered when she didn’t ask him to), but it is true that people often slide from ‘you did something creepy, here’s why and what you can do’ to ‘you are a creepy person and a pervert.’ And that’s not helpful for anyone.
There are definitely situations in which being friendly has lead to a girl calling another guy “creepy”. I’ve had it happen to me, and I’ve heard girls that I am friends with say it about other guys. I think “slut” is a pretty adequate parallel.
I’m curious, John – do you call the women on it, if you know that they are unfairly besmirching someone’s reputation? And how have you found them to respond? If it is parallel to slut-shaming, we should all be on the lookout for it. I definitely don’t let my guy friends (or women, for that matter) call women ‘sluts’ without giving them an earful.
to me, creepy actually means ‘creepy.’ meaning i get that weird chill on my spine. you know … CREEPY. there are plenty of behaviors that are ‘creepy’ and men are just as much culprits as anyone else. so, when the word ‘creepy’ applies, i apply it.
also, i find julian assange hair on the back of my neck ‘creepy.’ just so you know.
“I am trying to think of an equivalent positive characteristic that gets men called ‘creepy.’”
I don’t know if this is exactly what you mean, but I think using something like active, attentive listening is positive, but can be construed as creepy. The boy may do it just because he cares so much and has heard that women just want to be listened to — but it does not come off well.
I find J Ass “creepy” too. Probably because he’s a stone narcissist. And an attention-seeker. I don’t agree with Malcom, I’m afraid. I think it’s pretty normal for men to be a bit more aggressive than women, although I admit that there’s overlap. (I’ve never used the word slut in my life, and think the concept is as offensive as “creepy.” This word is pushed as much by women, as by men– probably more. It’s basically a term used by women and men to control mating “markets.” The idea is for an individual woman not to give away the store.) As a somewhat sociobiologically oriented sociologist (sociobiology is not the only driver, as some of its proponents would have it,) I think all this stuff is sort of designed to raise the price of marital and sexual goods at a meta level. In the 1960s and 70s, neither of these terms would have been used, except by the most benighted of people.
I agree. Too much active listening could be patronizing.
Please turn off the auto-refresh!
Eleanor and Henry, yes, the active-listening is what I was wondering about as an equivalent positive that gets described as a negative. And I talked with some female friends about this in the past few days and they thought the slut / creepy parallel was a good one and also that some guys do unfortunately get tagged this way and are unable to escape it.
So I think I was too far in the direction of “men, we can avoid this slur!” in an effort to respect that women are genuinely threatened by actions men aren’t aware are creepy/intimidating. Especially if some men are unfortunately socially awkward and unable to compensate in other ways. (I think of the Twilight story as an example, in which the main character is certainly creepy and stalkerish but his good looks give him some kind of free pass.)
Anyway, I appreciate the responses; they got me thinking.
Being called creepy is usually a result of someone not knowing their boundaries – I think men calling a woman “crazy” is the equivalent to that (along the lines of “the crazy ex-girlfriend”).
I don’t think “creepy” is a gendered term. I figure that men tend to have this label tacked onto them more than women is because men are more likely (as a group) to act creepy than women (as a group). Thus, you will find more women calling men creepy, than vice-versa.
Yes, it can hurt somebody’s reputation. I don’t know a lot of people that use the term “creepy” lightly. They usually reserve the word for people that genuinely creep them out. To say that they’re “wrong” for doing so, or that there’s an “explanation” for that creepy behavior downplays the significance for them using the word. Instead of saying, “No, THIS is what I meant by harassing you” why not ask, “What am I doing that makes you consider me creepy?” I’m sure they would want to know, so that people do not call them creepy again in the future.
To backtrack and say “Maybe I was wrong for calling somebody creepy” isn’t exactly a great response. WHY was the term used? Was it to describe creepy behavior? Or was it used just to smear somebody’s reputation? Honestly, I don’t hang out with 12 year olds, so I don’t know of anybody that intentionally tries to ruin reputations through needless name calling.
I agree with John—”crazy” or “psycho” is usually used to describe women who are deemed clingy, “creepy”, or give unwanted attention. And I think it’s also true what a lot of other commenters have pointed out—that there’s a reason the creepy label exists, and it’s because some dudes don’t understand/care about boundaries and have really outdated expectations about women and dating.
Honestly, it’s kind of pathetic that someone is going to whine that women accurately use the word “creepy.” Most words that women get called are much, much worse—cunt, bitch, feminazi, lesbo, psycho, slut, whore, etc.
Yes! I was thinking stalker but crazy/psycho is definitely the female equivalent for guys in my experience.
It’s kind of weird because “creepy” can apply to both sexes/genders and still keep the same basic definition (something’s just “off”). Crazy/psycho though… As a female, I wouldn’t call anyone that unless I actually thought there was a mental imbalance that made me feel unsafe. Not uncomfortable, unsafe.
I don’t think guys use them that way though. Crazy/psycho girls are the ones who don’t respect boundaries—unreasonably jealous, goes through wallet/drawers/computers, calls their moms ‘just because,’ etc.
I think this needs to be left here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLPZmPaHme0
BTW, the silhouette guy above looks like a douchebag, not a creep.
Defending someone as “creepy”, which I have never had the occasion to do, might seem to label the defender as “creepy”. No matter what the defender says, it’s not going to be taken as an explanation that the creepy label was incorrect. It will be taken as defending creepiness.
People just brushing the edge of Asperger’s could be acting “creepy”. Their ability to see boundaries and read others’ reactions is limited.
A cheerful, socially competent, good-looking guy can get away with some things a nerd or introvert might not.