New York Times Op-Ed columnist David Brooks paints a sobering picture of the state of boys and education today:
A decade or so ago, people started writing books and articles on the boy crisis. At the time, the evidence was disputable and some experts pushed back. Since then, the evidence that boys are falling behind has mounted. The case is closed. The numbers for boys get worse and worse.
By 12th grade, male reading test scores are far below female test scores. The eminent psychologist Michael Thompson mentioned at the Aspen Ideas Festival a few days ago that 11th-grade boys are now writing at the same level as 8th-grade girls. Boys used to have an advantage in math and science, but that gap is nearly gone.
Boys are much more likely to have discipline problems. An article as far back as 2004 in the magazine Educational Leadership found that boys accounted for nearly three-quarters of the D’s and F’s.
Some colleges are lowering the admissions requirements just so they can admit a decent number of men. Even so, men make up just over 40 percent of college students. Two million fewer men graduated from college over the past decade than women. The performance gap in graduate school is even higher.
Some of the decline in male performance may be genetic. The information age rewards people who mature early, who are verbally and socially sophisticated, who can control their impulses. Girls may, on average, do better at these things. After all, boys are falling behind not just in the U.S., but in all 35 member-nations of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.
Boys are falling behind on every measure, on every level, in every country in the world. Where are the protests? Where are the lobbyists? Where is the outrage?
Brooks gives a reason why this might be, and with it a possible solution:
Schools have to engage people as they are. That requires leaders who insist on more cultural diversity in school: not just teachers who celebrate cooperation, but other teachers who celebrate competition; not just teachers who honor environmental virtues, but teachers who honor military virtues; not just curriculums that teach how to share, but curriculums that teach how to win and how to lose; not just programs that work like friendship circles, but programs that work like boot camp.
The basic problem is that schools praise diversity but have become culturally homogeneous. The education world has become a distinct subculture, with a distinct ethos and attracting a distinct sort of employee. Students who don’t fit the ethos get left out.
Brooks’ question is a good one: Why is it that we keep trying to change boys to fit the educational system instead of the educational system to fit boys?
And the solution doesn’t even sound difficult — add teachers, curriculum and programs with enough diversity, enough consciousness and enough understanding of how boys best learn so that the boys can truly do their best.
This needs to get done, now, by people who care. How could we possibly forget about the boys?
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photo of handsome lads smiling by shutterstock
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David Brooks is basically well motivated, but he has a way of couching his points in conservative buzzwords. Boys need help in school? Let’s bring winning, losing, and boot camp into the classroom! It’s a great distraction from what needs doing most in schools, which is getting rid of teaching-to-the-test and zero-tolerance-of-anything policies rubber stamped by ass-covering administrators.
Once those 2 elephants are out of the room, there’ll be room for some different learning modes. As far as what is traditionally boy-friendly, how about putting some new blood into Vo-Ed to help kids try for potentially well paying and in-demand crafts and skilled trades? To really piss David off, we could even appeal to girls and boys.
Very interesting article. As a high school teacher I often think that the education system is currently stacked heavily in the girls favour. The statistics certainly seem to be backing this view up more and more each year.
Thanks for the interesting read.
Great to see this comment from a teacher. I would like to hear more and more from teachers about what they observe in terms of how boys and girls are treated in school. And if you could give some specific examples of “how the education system is currently stacked heavily in girls favour,” that would be great. I suspect you are quite right about what you are seeing, but concrete examples are always helpful.
The more people who speak out on this issue, the better.
Politicians can’t care about boys. It’s political suicide and heresy to even suggest more than zero dollars should be spent on males, except for incarceration, of course. They would be instantly labeled misogynists, leading the war on women. We ALL know that the gender warriors would swarm all over and eat him alive like piranhas would do to raw meat dropped into the Amazon. If he made it to the end of that term, it would definitely be his last.
my experience as a boy ran counter to this trend. i excelled at english literature, history, and the humanities and did mediocrely at math and science. i would’ve hated to be put into some boot-camp like competition that some seem to be advocating for boys. every child is different and deserves a right to learn accordingly. the gender gap is worth noting, but few things are black and white. some boys like reading novels and some girls prefer sports.
It’s near universal the silence feminism has on the boy crisis. I hate to generalize but I can’t recall seeing a single feminist blog post about it, single campaign led by feminists to highlight it, a few feminist commentators is about the best I’ve seen. After hearing how feminist is about equality for BOTH men and women I find it hard to reconcile the fact there is so much silence or just plain ignorance on the state of boys and men in education today. Prove me wrong, I dare you. I want to be wrong, it’s a big issue for me and to be proven wrong will restore much faith in that movement as being helpful to both genders. To hear so often that feminist fights for both genders whilst this issue is largely ignored really pisses me off quite frankly, either someone is lying or people are just completely ignorant to the state of boys and men.
That said, I’m not sure the rest of society really gives a toss about the state of boys n men in education. I see calls pretty much daily about how bad it is that women are left behind in STEM fields, this hyperfocus to our girls and their education (which was needed, just not above 50% of the focus). I’m not a genius but isn’t it logical to ensure we focus on both genders, especially after the female gender got so much help for STEM fields and raising their education to ensure the other doesn’t get left behind? Or do people just think magically that girls would reach the level males got to and stay there?
There is talk about the feminization of learning, how learning methods are more suited to giving women a leg up and men will lag behind. There could be truth to this, possibly we need to change how we learn for those who aren’t effectively learning in the current method. The one size fits all method really pissed me off, especially the long essays needed to get decent exam results. I may write my ass off these days but back in my school years I found it very hard to write, extremely hard to express myself, and the worst part was I wrote VERY slowly and very messy. I would only have 1/4 of the blackboards information written down by the end of the lesson, I spent many lunch times not eating but instead finishing the writing on the board (something that contributed to me hating school). Give me a laptop though and I’d blaze through and type up a storm. A notebook full of 1/4 finished information is useless, it’s like reading the opening paragraph of a wiki article and then having to answer an exam with the bottom paragraphs you don’t have written down.
The level of stress our kids have today is immense. I had untreated ADHD, a lot of bullying to deal with, a major suicidal depression in highschool to deal with and then add in untreated sleep apnea giving me zero energy. I had appalling writing skills and much of my notebooks were empty. I was easily distracted and my grade was a particular rowdy bunch, in the end I stayed away from school because school was traumatizing to be in. Quite a few of our kids go through similar experiences and their grades suffer, add the fact that the learning greatly favours females and also the potential female grading bias (see link below) you end up with a lot roadblocks to deal with for learning. And asking a child who’s mind hasn’t formed fully, a child with adult level emotions but hasn’t got adult level ability to deal with them then it’s no surprise my grades went from A’s in some classes for primary school (math, and anything that required less writing, history was D because I couldn’t write info fast enough) to a gradual drop to D (a fail) by year’s 10-12. I saw quite a few boys in particular fail highschool, discipline problems, untreated ADD/ADHD, bullying, learning difficulties plagued them. I saw sexist female teachers coddle the girls whilst treating the boys like shit. Boys were treated as trouble makers, and whilst it’s true they were called upon more it was because they were being told to shutup, sit down, behave, don’t do that, be passive. Quite frankly I believe they needed to burn off their energy and the method of learning whilst sitting down isn’t always helpful, these kids flourished in the trade/manual labour areas but found it difficult in the academic areas.
Quite a few didn’t have much in the way of reading skills and I think missing out on some key skills for learning put their ENTIRE school career back so much. I missed key parts of math class, etc due to illness and avoiding school due to bullies and I was so far behind I couldn’t catch up and continually failed after that. I think that is what happened to some of these other guys who missed a few key parts because they may have learned slower, or weren’t able to learn from a textbook. I myself am a hands on/picture based learner, I HATE text based learning. But most of the learning is from text so it became quite difficult to learn. In the last 4 years or so I have learned SO MUCH from youtube and google, in a much faster way than I learned in school simply because I found videos to explain the concepts vs reading text.
One boy I know was told he would never amount to anything in life, YOU NEVER SAY THIS TO A CHILD, all it does it make them give up. He worried that he wasn’t academically smart so he felt stupid but I told him that academics isn’t the only measure of intelligence, he was very intelligent at manual trade skills, engineering, welding etc. He later went to the mines n earned 2-3x what that teacher made.
ht tp://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/female-teachers-accused-of-giving-boys-lower-marks-6943937.html
This comment is all over the place but I am detailing some of the roadblocks to learning that I and others have faced here in Australia, the UK, and most likely the U.S. The one size fits all style of learning I think is absolutely stupid, I also think it’s terrible to keep people in a grade because of age. There were subjects such as computer studies that I was in the senior level or higher of knowledge whilst I was in junior level classes, but I couldn’t progress because of my age. The amount of time I sat in that class wasting away my learning, I’d do the hour’s work in 10-20 minutes and spend the rest talking or being bored. You grow to hate school when you have a stupid stumbling block like your handwriting speed ruining your ability to take down information when a laptop could mean you could write the info down probably faster than many others on a laptop! The kicker? about 2 years after I left the schools all started to get laptops and start this new style of learning!!! If I was born just a few years later I probably would have gotten much better marks at school.
This is a lesson to all people, school grades are NOT a measure of intelligence. I actually have above average intelligence but you wouldn’t think it from my grades. The most common comment on my report card was “could apply himself more and achieve much better grades”, but hey it ain’t that easy to apply yourself when you spend most of the lesson dealing with bullies or wanting to die, or trying to write down 1000′s of words at 10-20words per minute at best with your hand cramped up fully.
No offense meant, but I’m kind of curious. Why are people waiting for feminists to speak out on this issue? Don’t non-feminists also have a stake in society?
It strikes me that there are many things wrong with society, many issues that need to be addressed. It doesn’t make sense to expect one group to take up the battle on every single front. Feminism, like any other ideology, has its limits.
If this is something that you are passionate about, then you and like-minded folks are gonna have to take it up and blog about it, and educate your communities about it, and push for changes to “the system.” But I honestly don’t think you have to be anti-feminism to make your point. It is perfectly reasonable to believe that both males and females are disadvantaged in different ways and for different reasons. Recognizing one does not require one to deny the other. And you can opt to invest money/ time in one cause or the other as you choose.
Can you provide any proof of the lawsuits etc? I am curious to see what exactly happens.
Because many feminists claim that feminism fights for all oppressed groups rather than just women.
Rose: “No offense meant, but I’m kind of curious. Why are people waiting for feminists to speak out on this issue? Don’t non-feminists also have a stake in society? ”
Interesting you should ask that question.
Because back in the past, when reports came out that girls were struggilng in school, feminist groups spoke out loudly on the issue and declared it a crisis. Thus, programs of support were put into place to help based on the fact that because girls were falling behind, they deserved the support.
Now we have boys struggling and girls exceling far ahead, since feminism is supposed to be about equality of oppertunity, you’re saying people shouldn’t wait for feminists to speak out on the issue?
“It strikes me that there are many things wrong with society, many issues that need to be addressed. It doesn’t make sense to expect one group to take up the battle on every single front. Feminism, like any other ideology, has its limits. ”
Only when it comes to boys struggling, that’s where you draw the line?
“If this is something that you are passionate about, then you and like-minded folks are gonna have to take it up and blog about it, and educate your communities about it, and push for changes to “the system.”
This is the same response people get when advocating for male victims of sexual or physical abuse from female perpetrators: Do it yourself, don’t expect us to help, we did it on our own so you can do it.
If there is an issue where boys are struggling and feminism is made out to be equality for both genders, then wouldn’t it make sense to take up arms along with those who are highlighting the issue? If you’re not going to do it, then maybe stop claiming you’re about equality between both genders.
“But I honestly don’t think you have to be anti-feminism to make your point. It is perfectly reasonable to believe that both males and females are disadvantaged in different ways and for different reasons. Recognizing one does not require one to deny the other. And you can opt to invest money/ time in one cause or the other as you choose.”
Pointing out an area where a movement purports to be about one thing and fails at fulfilling it isn’t being anti-feminist or anti-anything for that matter. Nor is recognizing boys are struggling denying that girls and women struggle too.
So far as investing money/time in one cause or the other, that’s not what you do if you’re about equality between BOTH genders.
Not sure if my reply was gobbled up by moderation or not, but if I didn’t post it for some reason…
“But I honestly don’t think you have to be anti-feminism to make your point.”
I am not anti-feminist, I am anti-somefeminism and anti-someMRA. I am constantly hearing feminism is about male and female issues, but what I’m seeing is 95% or more of the focus is on women’s issues. And then when I talk about how feminism says it’s there for men and women’s issues I end up with replies that it is not up to feminism to handle men’s issues. There is a contrasting view, some feminists say it’s for men’s issues too, others say it’s for women’s issues only. So which is correct? And when I hear how it’s for both men and women I wonder why there isn’t much focus on male issues, it really does feel like this gaping hole of silence over the crisis our boys are facing.
It’s not anti-feminist to call out the hypocrisy of feminist replies though, feminists are saying 2 very different things and it’s confusing as hell. Why are we waiting for feminists to speak out? Because feminists have said they’re the group to speak out about male issues! They’re the group acting like the egalitarian movement where both genders are covered, so it’s basic logic to question why they haven’t spoken out much about it. It’s failing to do what they say they do.
@ Rose
“No offense meant, but I’m kind of curious. Why are people waiting for feminists to speak out on this issue? Don’t non-feminists also have a stake in society?”
I think that there are two reasons for this. There is a feeling that feminisms push to make education more conducive to girl’s learning has made to hostile to boys. It’s the you break it you own it reflex. The other thing is that there is a feeling that feminists protect the status quo because they created it. People then view removing feminists’ support of the current system as integral to changing it. If feminists were clear that this was an unacceptable situation, the politicians and educational establishment who put this in place at the feminists urging would be more apt to change it.
Now let’s assume for a moment that men (and women) decided to do what you suggest and fix the problem. Let’s assume that the pendulum swings again and boys start to do better than girls. Should the feminists then not complain and do it themselves. I’m not opposed to girls doing well and maybe the educational system needs to teach boys and girls differently. How quickly would feminists start yelling that separate is not equal even if girl’s scores were unaffected and boys scores matched what girls are doing now. There would be concerns over how much money was being spent, were resources were being allocated, what opportunities were being denied girls that may not help them. For example (I don’t know if this will work it’s hypothetical) to battle boy’s short attention spans, we allow them multiple recess time. Girls might complain why should we not get more recess just because we could sit still longer.
Sometimes it’s better to be a part of the solution. Besides, it makes it much too easy for men to decide that street harassment of women is not high on his list of priorities so he just can’t be bothered with it, etc.
@Archy … sorry to hear about what you experienced but I have to tell ya, you sure do write well. someone reading what you write would have no clue. GREAT job overcomming that which could have distroyed you.
Thanks. I actually hated English, bored me to tears. I use to do poetry (typical angsty shit) during school and then I had nearly a decade of not writing much until recently when I started commenting here on the GMP. It coincided with therapy where I was learning how to identify my feelings better and through those 2 I guess I learned how to express myself better. I find myself expanding my vocabulary I’ll hear it used, lookup it’s definition and think zomg that’s exactly the word I am looking for! I’ve added quite a few words in the last few years from learning that way.
If it doesn’t kill you, can only make you stronger. No choice but to overcome it.
@Archy, I admire you and I too hated English and I sucked at spelling in the early years. I still believe that “word check” was made for me personally. My handwriting sucked because I didn’t want the nuns to be able to read that I’d not spelled a word correctly. Peer handwriting but great artist. We learn to adapt. I journal and it helps me through the rough times. My brother gained an amazing vocabulary by doing cross words. The only problem is most people have no clue as to what he’s saying at times.
Thank-you, it’s nice to know my words help others. I hope others find their ability to get down on paper/documentoncomputer their troubles, it makes it much easier to deal with when you list out what troubles you.
It’s near universal the silence feminism has on the boy crisis
I disagree; they used to talk about it all the time back in the 90s. This is referenced in the article when the author says,
some experts pushed back
There were a lot of people who pushed back saying that the real problem was girls were not far enough ahead, that there was nothing to worry about with boys and that if there was then it was entirely boys own fault, and it was just “natural” for boys to be behind anyway or as a last resort they said that if men were worried about boys they were always free to lobby for boys (but society as whole should not). This was back when Sommers was writing The War Against Boys. There was enormous push back against it. Yeah they were talking about it a lot and it was almost universally said that boys being behind was a good thing. If you disagreed you were part of the “backlash”.
Maybe I should have said silence these days, unless I am just far out of the loop. The majority I see feminists talk about is female representation in STEM fields, gov, etc. Does that backlash still happen today?
I, too, think that boys are lagging behind. But I don’t think the curriculum can be blamed exclusively for this problem. As far as I can tell, curricula vary widely from school to school, and from school district to school district.
I suspect the problem also has something to do with absent or uninvolved fathers.
Millions of kids, boys and girls, would perform better with better home situations, but people still try to improve schools and get better outcomes. Why is it that when it comes to boys, so many jump to blaming fatherlessness (i.e., blaming MEN) for the problem instead of looking at ways the system can be improved?
This just goes to the standard societal narrative that whatever problems boys/men have, it is a sign of their personal failings, not a sign of society’s or government’s or culture’s failings. The lack of fathers in some of these boys’ lives may be a factor, but putting it out in front like is just an excuse not to do something with schools.
@Reese … I’ll address the fatherlessness in another response but for now I would like to stress that there is another part of this. Fatherless is one thing but the other is a question as to how well the moms are or aren’t doing. My wife and her brother didn’t have a dad(male) in their lives. Being Mexican and former migrant workers, mom spoke poor English and the aunt that stayed home and took care of them while mom worked spoke no English. My wife and her brother didn’t speak English until they started first grade in school. If you were to speak to either of them today, you would have no clue. Both excelled in school. Both were double promoted twice in grade school and both today articulately write and speak in both languages. Back then, people didn’t depend on the school system to raise the kids, they taught the kids and left the child rearing to the family. Also keep in mind that we lived on the west side of Chicago where gangs were visibly and openly recruiting … yet another potential obstacle to their success that they overcame.
As much as I agree that the educational system has failed, I have to also place blame on the parents.
If being raised in a home with a mostly or completely absent father were to blame for this crisis, wouldn’t girls be failing as well? I find it highly unlikely that only boys would be affected by the absence of their fathers, whilst girls simply shrugged things off and got back to studying…
Do you argue that boys need a male parent to succeed? If so why are boys from lesbian households not similarly affected?
If you’re arguing that single parenthood is the cause then why are girls not equally held back?
@Daniel and Peter …WOW, two comments that have minimized male roles in male children’s lives. As I mentioned in an earlier response, I know that single moms can and do make a difference as it was proven by my wife and brother-in-law. That’s not to say though, that in the big picture that men are irrelevant to how well boys do.
So I guess what you may be saying is that these single moms are falling short with their sons? Or are you just wanting to blame the schools? The teachers? And in so far as the comment “If so why are boys from lesbian households not similarly affected?” …. Show me the stats that prove this? Whereas there are plenty of stats that show the adverse effects of fatherless homes. And even if I give you your assumption of kids raised by lesbians, it’s not representative of the big picture which include poor results for both boys and girls.
Is it the lack of a male role model, or the single parent household that is causing the issue? Maybe the child’s security is upset having to swap between homes with shared custody? (No idea, just making wild guesses). Are there stats that show performance in school, overall happiness, etc according to financial situation of the household and the status of parents? (single mother, single father, joint custody, couple living together, etc)
Actually fathers have to be quite irrelevant. Nature proves that.
Because you always hear that male sexuality means “spreading around your genes whenever you can”.
If this is true, than the father is actually unimportant because you can not be father to 10 children from 10 different women.
Either men are less important for the raise of children or the theory that men f…k everything they can is not true but an pseudo-biological founded excuse some men use to explain irresponsible behaviour.
Well, I would think we leave out the evolution of community in these statements. I would imagine in native or tribal communities its was not hard for any child for run 10 feet and slap a male on the leg even if that male was not related.
No you could have a situation where the women use a non-biological father to help raise their kids that they have by cuckolding the non-biological father. In fact medical researchers are well aware that a huge proportion of kids are not related to their supposed “father” and are taught to check there is a real biological relationship there and not assume it or else their results might go wrong. I’ve heard varying rates for the proportion between 10 and about 25%.
I’ve seen reports of it being fairly high too but it’s also JUST for the men who suspected foul-play and then got a DNA test, so they’d probably have a higher proportion of cuckolded men.
Look at what just changed in Michigan. Any child born in a marriage was legally fathered by the husband. The biological father couldn’t establish paternity because it was an unrebuttable assumption. Now a biological father can establish paternity.
It’s not just the feminist that have had a hand in stacking the deck against boys in education. The conservative side signed No Child left Behind (teach to the test). The 80s saw the restructuring of the classroom to be more “girl oriented”. The medical community and teachers unions gave us the wonder drug ritalin, so now teachers no longer had to deal with all those unruly boys. I personally know of classrooms where over half the boys were on that drug in the 80s, The lobbying arm of the feminist movement and the teachers unions control the dollars and how they are spent. Neither one will sacrifice a nickle of “get girls into STEM fields” money to make a boy functionally literate. With education costs having increased at 9% per year over the last decade there just isn’t going to be a lot of new money put there regardless of election results. The educational system spend 20 years consciously focused on elevating female achievement, what did they expect.
I am one feminist who is concerned about boys and our society’s expectations of them. I even wrote a book about it. There are lots of issues in the education system that need fixing for the sake of both boys and girls, but there are also wider issues in society that affect boys. Why does our culture teach boys that doing well in school is for “geeks” or “nerds”? Why is reading considered a “feminine” activity? Why do people like the author cited above think that boot camp and military virtues are needed for boys? I know plenty of boys for whom such an approach would be detrimental. Along with the general problems in the education system, we need to address some of these stereotypes to help boys succeed both in school and after graduation.
I don’t think reading is considered a feminine activity, but it is a skill which girls seem to develop at an earlier age.
My grade school had a library. Each week we’d go in as a class and each student would borrow a book to read for the week. We didn’t have that parents make sure and verify that your kid read it thing. If you weren’t done in the week, you borrowed the same book again. That has contributed to my love for reading. I read “masculine” books and my reading ability would rival and surpass that of most girls.
My class rank in high school was 130ish/140ish out of 305. My SAT scores put me in the top 2% in reading and the top 2% in math, in the top 1% overall. That started me thinking. Am I a special case or does this translate to other boys. I found this.
“Average scores dropped 5 points for females and 2 points for males. While females represent more than half (53.5%) of test takers, their total average score (1496) is 27 points below the average score for males (1523).”
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2009-08-25-SAT-scores_N.htm
That makes me wonder if part of the problem isn’t assessment.
Thanks for writing about it, it’s good to know some feminists are taking action (along with others). How was the book received by the community?
I have developed a lot of friendships with people working on issues affecting girls. They have really welcomed the book and blog and have offered me a lot of support and help promoting it.
Glad to hear it.
@Crystal … I commend you for your efforts and would be interested in reading your book. That being said, it bothers me that I seldom see responses about “boys” or “men” where there isn’t an addition with “girls” or “women.” As you said, issues for boys and girls yet this is all about boys. I know there was nothing intended on your part when you stated what you did but I just see this as a common occurrence.
This is not intended toward you specifically Crystal but the idea that guys do well in boot camp settings is not a stereotype. When are people going to accept and be okay with the fact that men and boys may do well in these settings? Why is it so hard to accept that guys are different and in many cases thrive in that kind of setting. Especially these days where structure is lacking in their lives.
I work with male adolescents in a residential setting. I’m known as the hard ass and when I admit guys to the unit, they come out of the gate hating the ground I walk on. These guys who have had little to no structure thrive with structure and routine. They learn that because they fall short which result in consequences doesn’t make them bad. I’ve been working in this setting for 14 years now and have made a decision to move on.
The best compliment was given to me recently by our relatively new female Director who ran a residential girls facility for 20 years. She said, “Tom, you know these boys as well as I know girls. WOW … she actually recognized that men do know boys, how they act, what they feel and more importantly, what they need.
I think the stereotype isn’t the geek or nerd, it’s that guys call these guys geeks and nerds. Yup, there are plenty of guys who make fun of them but it’s not the “norm.” But let’s take this beyond what other “guys” say and do and to the girl who ignore them, mock them, show no interest in them because they aren’t the “bad guy” or the “jock” So you tell me who has a bigger impact?
@ Tom B
I think you’re right some boys will thrive in a boot camp style environment, but not all. I almost went into shock when one of my teachers told me that I was being held up as the ideal student in my master’s class. I’m probably one of the least serious students there (although I’ve got straight As). I get surprised when I’m invited to multiple groups when it comes to group projects. I never practice my presentations. My classmates tell me that’s because I do really good work and my presentations are really good. I’m also easy to get along with (it’s that laid back slacker). There are some students who have been rejected by groups (some more serious about school than I). The teacher usually assigns people to groups when they can’t get into one.
My nephew hated football practice, but would get 2 or 3 sacks and force a fumble despite being double teamed the whole game. He’d use the techniques he learned in practice and though he was a big boy (about 5′ 8″ and 180 pounds at 12 years old) and didn’t want to work out, he was still able to exploit the gaps in the defenders. His lack of enthusiasm and effort in practice would drive his coach crazy, but not every kid is a practice player. A lot of them will come up big game time.
Even boys will have different learning styles from kid to kid. You dealt with troubled youth (I’m a volunteer mentor for troubled kids too. I just started and haven’t even gone through training yet. I appreciate your insights). They probably need more structure than the average boy. I think we lose sight of this when we try a one size fits all strategy. Are we losing sight that not all our boys are “practice players”. We label them as bad students, disciplinary problems, etc., when they really need more game time to shine. Being a coach isn’t just knocking a kid down when he needs to be. It’s about building him up to.
“Boot Camp” style is a rather extreme vision but not too far off. Boot camp as in structure, discipline and high expectations, yes. Each of the guys setting the bar. When kids come onto my unit, I explain that I set my bar high for each of them. When I say set it high, what I mean is that I’m not cutting them any slack because of who they are, what they’ve done or where they came from. Most of the bar that I set has to do with behavioral expectations. In fact, we avoid the term “rules” and use “expectations.” Within a few weeks, every one of the guys meet these expectations. It’s no longer Tom B’s bar, it’s their own bar that they maintain and in some cases raise themselves. One of their biggest struggle is adhering to authority and being okay with it.
I had a heart attack a little over a month ago. These hardened “thugs,” many of them gang bangers begged staff to allow them to come to the hospital. When I returned to work, two of these guys, when they heard me in the milieu, came running out of their dorms and hugged me. Like I’ve said before, I’m a hard ass and as hard as I am on them, they thrive. I think it was Archy that said something about security…. These guys know we care about them and respect us.
And no offense to any ladies here, these guys don’t feel the same way about female staff. It’s just the way it is.
@ Tom B
I appreciate it. The kids I volunteered to help thankfully are not thugs yet. The program won’t accept kids with a criminal record. They’re more truants and runaways. I could really respect what you did. I’m sorry to hear about the heart. Hope you’re doing better. I don’t think I could have done what you did. My role would be just to check in with the kids. Make sure they’re on the right track and give them someone they could talk to if needed. The program has guys like you who do the heavy lifting, but I’m not one of them.
My dad had a knack for getting the rowdy bunch to respond, the secret was to talk about fishing for the first few minutes in class. These are the trouble maker kids, kids most teachers dislike, but dad was very well respected by them and I’ve had them tell me many years later after he died of how much they respected him, one was very upset he died.
I think some teachers are just awesome at getting through to the rowdy bunch, many other teachers I saw gave up or treated them like shit and they were teh teachers most hated. The teachers that actually gave a damn and at least tried were so much more respected. I dunno if it was mostly because dad could relate to them via fishing, or if it was also party because he was a male too but those guys responded to him in a way most other teachers couldn’t get I guess. He wasn’t a hardass, just a warm n loving person, the kind of guy who gave someone 50bucks because he needed to buy food for his family and a few years later that guy returned with the 50 saying thank-you soo much, money dad didn’t think he’d ever get back, nor did he care if he got it back.
Treat kids like they’re useless, and just troublemakers and you will get a shitty response from them I believe. Treat em with respect n relate to them somehow and you’ll be surprised I think of how they respond to you.
@Julie … seriously, thank you for the very respectful response. I know you used your coping skills when writing it and managed to control your emotions. Seriously, thank you.
@Heather … wow, you picked up on what I was saying. It was not as much an insult about women and more the emotions that go with having a period. How these guys were reacting.
As I said, people have to understand the guys that I’m working with. Julie, I’m all for “drop and give me 10” pushups that is. But a few years ago, there was a management decision that prohibits us from having the clients do that. Believe me, no one was more upset them me. That “at the moment” exercise was very affective. But someone, somewhere saw it as humiliating and we had to stop.
Let me give you another example of how we’ve had to adjust and I’m gonna contribute this to feminism. I’m responsible for the client dorms. I do daily room checks. Our female recreational therapist made a comment that there was inappropriate materials on the clients bulletin boards. I check these boards daily and questioned which dorm room. I went to the dorm in question and all I found was a picture of a women in a bikini. I brought it back to the meeting and said that this was the only thing I could find. She said she was bothered by it. I looked at the director and said, “are you kidding?” He looked at me and said and I quote, “if female staff finds it offensive, then it has to be removed.”
The reason I mention this and how it’s relevant is that feminists don’t see guys as guys through male eyes. Expecting teen age kids … there was absolutely no wish to think of the guys but instead what was perceived offensive.
@TomB Thanks for your comment. I didn’t mean to imply that boot camp type settings wouldn’t work for some boys, but I think it is a stereotype to assume that just because a child is male he needs rigid discipline to succeed. Some will thrive and may need such an environment, but others would fail miserably. You noted that the boys you help lack structure, so boys who have that structure in their homes would not need the type of discipline you are talking about and would probably find it too harsh. As John Anderson said, there is no one-size fits all solution, which is part of the challenge in the education system.
So, if boys were just more like girls (less masculine), all would be well. Boys and their masculinity, they say, is the problem.
As if boys and men just started becoming masculine. As if there aren’t more feminine behaving men than ever before in history. As if there aren’t more “out” feminine gay men, cross dressers, transgenders, metrosexuals, and otherwise effeminate boys and men. If masculinity were the problem. things would be better not worse.
Uh, no. That is not my argument at all. It may not have been clear from my brief comment to this post, but my point is that traditional views of masculinity are very limiting to boys. It is not about feminizing boys, but letting them be who they want to be without judging them for being “unmanly” if they don’t fall in line with what is considered “typical” masculine behaviour.
“Uh, no. That is not my argument at all. . . my point is that traditional views of masculinity are very limiting to boys.”
I’ve heard that opinion from women’s studies theorists many times before. All I’ll say is that if your theory was accurate, boys’ educational performance would have shown steady improvement over the last 25-years, rather than a steady decline over that same time period – because more than ever before in history, elementary and middle school age boys are cross-dressing, coming out as gay and bi, and acting in effeminate ways – with more parental and societal support than ever before.
During the same time period that boys have increasingly behaved in, not only, less traditionally masculine ways but traditionally feminine ways, overall educational performance has declined. Not saying that that’s the cause, but the facts clearly run counter to your argument.
@ Crystal
For myself, when I was in grade school, I was the nerdy kid always picked last for sports because I was no good at it. For a long time, I didn’t think I was athletic. In high school, I discovered weight lifting and taekwondo and realized that it was only traditional team sports that I stunk at like baseball, basketball, and football. Sometimes we just need another way of thinking to help one kid. Not that I would recommend weight lifting for any kid who didn’t reach puberty, but I think you get the idea.
@John Anderson. Agreed. Children excel, enjoy, and feel comfortable with different types of activities and will find their way with the right support and guidance.
This book? The Achilles Effect: What Pop Culture is Teaching Young Boys about Masculinity
Yes, that is the one.
Crystal: “I am one feminist who is concerned about boys and our society’s expectations of them. I even wrote a book about it. There are lots of issues in the education system that need fixing for the sake of both boys and girls, but there are also wider issues in society that affect boys. Why does our culture teach boys that doing well in school is for “geeks” or “nerds”? Why is reading considered a “feminine” activity? ”
Just one question: Did you look at it solely through the lens of “Feminine” being less accepted in society and applied it to boys? Because while I commend you for speaking out, you make the same mistake some feminists can’t overcome: Work “Feminine” or “Women” into it where it’s not warranted.
What we have here are boys being failed by the education system. Boys who are working hard or putting their best foot forward yet being told they won’t amount to anything or people having less faith in them. Thus, low self-esteem issues and self-worth. Nothing about boys fearing this or that is too “Feminine” or whatever.
Once again, reminds me of the theory that male victims don’t speak out due to fear of having their masculanity questioned or manhood taken down a notch when it’s really about fear of no support!
Sorry for the slow reply. I was out of town all weekend. I have read a number of articles and studies that talk about boys viewing reading as “girly.” Page 5 of this report (http://www.ccl-cca.ca/pdfs/LessonsInLearning/02_18_09-E.pdf) says “One recent Canadian study concluded that 24% of Grade 2 boys view reading as feminine.” Lisa Bloom writes about it in her book Swagger (which I still haven’t read, for the record) and talks about it in this article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-bloom/how-to-talk-to-little-boy_b_1473167.html. There are others, but those are just a couple that come to mind. Certainly not all boys feel this way, but a significant number seem to.
When I was in grade school, we had competitions like spelling bees. There were similar team competitions like in math and science. The girls tended to win the spelling bees. The boys tended to win the math and science competitions when segmented by gender. One thing I found interesting was that if you looked at class rank, who the teachers saw as being the best students etc., the girls were consistently ranked higher than the boys. The math team was composed of five girls. When we took the Iowa exams, the top two or three scores were boys. I beat the top girls score by double digits. This was despite the math team getting special after school prep for the Iowa exams. After that the two highest scoring boys were invited to join the math team. Yeah, I’m really going to win you a trophy.
I think there’s some merit to the idea of competition. I also know many men/boys who were self taught. I taught myself the harmonica and the C programming language. A friend taught himself the guitar. Maybe boys should be given the freedom to explorer. We do need to get rid of this teaching to the test crap and establish a different metric. Teaching boys trades is a possibility, but only if that’s were their interests lie. I don’t believe boys can’t compete with girls and need to be offered alternatives. I think we need to look at the teaching style, curriculum, and assessment.
As an aside, one teaching method I thought was self evident was if you want to teach a kid to read, you gave him reading material that was interesting to him. I got my start reading Greek mythology and science fiction/fantasy.
(CNSNews.com) – In an op-ed published Saturday in Newsweek, President Barack Obama marked the 40th anniversary of the enactment of Title IX–which bars gender discrimination in education—and noted that more women in the United States are now graduating from college than men, which he characterized as “a great accomplishment” for the nation.”
“In fact, more women as a whole now graduate from college than men,” Obama wrote. “This is a great accomplishment—not just for one sport or one college or even just for women but for America. And this is what Title IX is all about.”
Who mentioned “No Child Left Behind?” Ummmm … and how about this?
Pages and pages of articles about this topic (I typed in “boys and education”) and much in the mainstream. Not sure how this translates into “forgetting about boys.” But certainly it is an issue that is valid and warrants dialogue and attention. If anyone feels there is not enough being done–then he/she should become involved (like Crystal has). Blaming and finger-pointing will not help to make change.
https://www.google.com/#hl=en&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=boys+and+education&oq=boys+and+education&gs_l=hp.3..0l4.153.2341.0.2548.18.9.0.8.8.2.233.1517.0j7j2.9.0…0.0.4JM8pYlwj-0&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=a2e370afc0354df8&biw=1024&bih=653
Has anything reached the government level for the US? I haven’t heard of anything at the gov level for Australia, maybe that is what they mean by forgetting. It’s a problem that largely goes unnoticed, but recently awareness seems to be rising. I see one link for an Australian Gov report however it isn’t working, I’m glad it is being discussed though. Haven’t heard any programs being introduced to address the issue yet though, do you know of any (for anywhere, not just Australia)?
Is it possible that most of the work being done on behalf of boys is done without much media attention, and thus causing a perception that boys are ignored? It could be a good idea to promote what has been done so far for boys. Part of the reason of my above comment was to be proven wrong, to see that much more is being done that I haven’t seen.
In the googling I’m doing I’m seeing research and studies proving there is a problem, but can’t find any actual programs put in place to address it? (My google-fu is failing me)
What are effective ways to get involved? I share links to friends to try raise awareness of the issues but apart from that I am a bit lost as to what the next steps are.
If you want to go further you can contact your government representatives, your school boards, etc. and ask them what is being done. You can start a website that not only blogs about this subject but offers some solutions. What kinds of solutions do you see that would help? Write articles and submit them to local papers/magazines. Start an online initiative, write curriculum, write a book. Create a non-profit that can coordinate with teachers/schools/educational outlets to develop programs that are more boy-centered. I don’t know–these are just off the top of my head.
I think sharing links and raising awareness is good–but we all have to dig deeper to ask ourselves “what else can we do?” and start there.
Thank-you, I’ll keep this in mind once my health gets better.
“Brooks’ question is a good one: Why is it that we keep trying to change boys to fit the educational system instead of the educational system to fit boys?
And the solution doesn’t even sound difficult — add teachers, curriculum and programs with enough diversity, enough consciousness and enough understanding of how boys best learn so that the boys can truly do their best.
This needs to get done, now, by people who care. How could we possibly forget about the boys?”
The only fingers I see being pointed are those that suggest that the educators are failing boys, which is probably correct. It’s time to hold the educators accountable for this failure, but because the field is traditionally female and it’s not negatively affecting girls, I don’t think that the political will exist to do that. When people criticize the politics that shields the educational system, they are doing something about the problem.
It translates into forgetting about boys when it spends tens of millions of dollars on girls in education, it spends zero dero dollars on boys in education.
It translates into forgetting about boys when the President of the United States celebrates both the advancement of women and the decline of men, and is applauded.
Blaming and finger pointing often is necessary for change.
It is important to recognize that this should not just be a debate about catering for all children within our education system: it should also be a debate about whether we have an education system that can cater for, nurture, and produce some of the intellectual traits that have proved to be some of the most valuable over the course of human history.
The feminized education system that many countries have been moving towards values a particular set of traits: cooperation, collaboration, quietness, sedentariness, empathy, equality, non-competitiveness, conformity, communal-focus, inclusivity, affirmation, inoffensiveness, sensitivity, non-confrontation, a downplaying of physicality, and an orientation to grades and tests. All traits that don’t meet this model tend to be stigmatized.
The ideal student in the system described above is the high-functioning conformist, the student who is totally driven by and oriented towards the system’s expectations. Such a student constantly seeks affirmation from the rewards and incentives offered by the system, and direction from the instructions and prohibitions presented by it. Such a student will ace any test with which the system presents them.
However, such students often fail to excel in the real world and even in the advanced academic world. There is a fairly simple reason for this: the traits of leadership and genius are quite distinct from the traits of conformity, the traits that our education systems are often geared towards. The traits of leadership and genius are traits such as an internalized confidence that does not depend upon external affirmation, originality, agonism, bloody-mindedness, independence of thought and spirit, creativity, inner drive, assertiveness, the mastery of one’s own feelings, a thick skin, competitiveness, nerve, a high tolerance for pain and discomfort, both your own and of others, a willingness to offend, initiative, imagination, and force of will. Look throughout history, and it is people with such traits who stand out from the crowd. The conformists are effective servants of the system, but they are not the innovators, pioneers, and leaders.
This is not to say that communally-oriented and more conformist thinkers don’t have their particular strengths over more agentic and independent thinkers, but there are good reasons why agentic and independent thinkers can be especially important to the development of any dynamic society.
In discriminating in favour of traits traditionally associated with females, and against the traits of agentic and independent thought more traditionally associated with males, our society lets one of its most important intellectual muscles atrophy. Boys and girls who are naturally independent thinkers do not find their traits fostered by our system and many will feel alienated and may disengage. Those who stick with it can end up being the high achievers at the top end, where independent thought and leadership traits can come into their own. However, there are significant casualties along the way.
I believe that we need to reharness these traits for our society’s good. We should produce an education system that values disputation and competition, develops thick skins, teaches children to fight their intellectual corner, to think independently, to argue and debate, to explore off the beaten path, to challenge and be challenged, to have the nerve to be original and nonconformist and the wit and intellect to defend such originality, to master their emotions, to find confidence and conviction within that means that they need not depend on external affirmation and direction, to earn respect, to be assertive, inventive, and persistent.
The weak and conformist minds created by our education system also threaten our freedom as a society. People on all sides today are constantly playing the ‘I’m offended’ game, in a manner that shuts down important debates and conversations, in large part because they never learned to control their feelings and argue for their beliefs. Constantly affirmed and directed by the system that nurtured them, they never learned how to deal with opposition, beyond running away in tears or name-calling. Thin-skinned people who have never been taught how to stand up to challenge and debate produce a society where public discourse and free speech have to be dramatically curtailed. Persons who have been trained to be conformists, hooked on the directions and affirmations of the systems to which they belong produce a society without nerve, but with a surplus of entitlement and resentment. If we want to create a society with a spirit of innovation, independence, freedom of speech and expression, vigorous but non-reactive public discourse, and decisive and effective leadership, we really need to start valuing other sets of traits in our education system.
Perhaps, just perhaps, such a change would benefit boys too.
@Alastair …. amazing!
Just want to point out that it is not just schoolteachers and administrators who have eliminated competition. It’s parents. I don’t have kids but I hear this from friends and from my sister. Whenever grade schools do anything competitive, parents bitch. Little Johnny or Little Janie came home sad because he didn’t win a ribbon in the contest or she didn’t do well in the foot race, and parents are getting on the phone and screaming at the principal. At the yearly art contest at my niece’s school, every participant gets a first place or second place ribbon. I’m not making this up! My sister said parents kept complaining so the school gave up trying to rank the top entries. They just divide all the entries into 2 groups, “good” and “better.” half get first place and half get second place. That way everyone is happy and parents stop yelling at the teachers.
Sad to hear that. Our school isn’t like that at all and in fact I am posting from a very competitive regional swim meet.
Competition is important.
@ Sarah
I remember when my nephew complained that some guy hit him illegally in a taekwondo tournament. His parents were yelling at the other boy’s parent, who was trying to apologize. My nephew was yelling at the other boy who was also trying to apologize. I asked him if he was hurt. He said no so I told him that if you’re going to play a combat sport you’re going to be hit from time to time. If you can’t handle it, put on a dress and I’ll buy you a Barbie.
I did catch some grief for that last part (not from his parents who immediately changed their position and agreed with me, but from some classmates when I repeated the story), but the kid got the hint and stopped whining. Maybe I could have phrased it better, but I put it in terms a 15 year old boy could understand. I suppose I put it in terms his parents could understand too. I’ve got three nephews in martial arts and haven’t heard another similar complaint yet.
I got kicked in the side of the neck once and couldn’t move half my body for about 10 seconds. I ended up getting kicked on the nose too because of it before the ref could stop the fight. Not being able to block it when I saw it coming kind of irritated me, but it wasn’t like I was injured. I was laughing while telling a lady friend about it. She was incredulous. How can you laugh at that? It happened several years earlier and there were no lingering effects. I never saw what the tragedy was.
“If you can’t handle it, put on a dress and I’ll buy you a Barbie. I did catch some grief for that last part…”
I get the feeling you don’t think the complaints about you making that statement were valid. That statement basically just told the kid to man up while simultaneously perpetuating the myth that women are weak AND that a man who is not traditionally masculine is something worthy of mockery. That’s a problem. When feminists talk about “toxic masculinity” (a problematic term) or hegemonic masculinity (a much better term), this is what they are referring to.
As for your story…competition is good for everyone…but so is learning to follow the rules and understanding that there are consequences for breaking them. If he was hit illegally…he was hit illegally. Telling a kid to get over it when his/her opponent breaks the rules is basically fostering the idea that rules are made to be broken. That is not helpful.
“Telling a kid to get over it when his/her opponent breaks the rules is basically fostering the idea that rules are made to be broken. That is not helpful.”
When I was kick boxing, I had a kick timed at 7/10th of a second, a three kick combination in about 2 seconds. When I had to spar one of the two girls, I went at about half that, which is still pretty darn fast. When both people are moving that fast, it’s hard to adjust a kick or punch mid flight. When he relayed the story, it sounded accidental and it was called. Had it been something the kid was doing consistently, I’d take my nephew’s side.
“I get the feeling you don’t think the complaints about you making that statement were valid.”
I’m not completely happy with the way I phrased it. It’s not the first time I could have handled a situation better not to excuse it (look at how we handled my friend abusing his girlfriend. I got crap for that too from a mutual female friend), but people aren’t always perfect whether it’s in a kick boxing tournament or teaching a boy about life. We (hopefully) learn and try to be better.
I get that sometimes people break rules without meaning to. That’s why sometimes rules (particularly in sports) take into account whether it was purposeful or not. I was just watching the EuroCup and realized they’ve changed the rules of football so that you only get a penalty for touching the ball with your hand if they think it was intentional.
However, if the rule doesn’t take intent into account…then it doesn’t take it into account. The world is not black and white…it’s very gray…but we create rules to bring some order to the chaos. I think it is important that we teach children to always question and critically examine rules/laws/social norms, etc…but at the same time to respect that sometimes even if they are problematic we need to follow them (particularly when it comes to sports, where there is a potential for injury when the rules aren’t followed).
“I’m not completely happy with the way I phrased it.”
I’m curious as to how you would rather you had phrased it?
I wish I could tell you, but I haven’t gotten that far yet, like when my friend was hitting his girlfriend. He wouldn’t do it in front of us so we made sure that she was with one of us while we were clubbing. I mentioned it on GMP before, but only today realized that because we handled it non-confrontationally, he may have beaten her again when they got back at his house.
I’ve just started considering issues of gender equality and gender constructs about a year and a half or two years ago . The incident with my nephew was about 3 years ago. I’m at the point where I can recognize that something is wrong, but haven’t acquired the tools to address it yet. It would make it more difficult to put it in 15 year old terms. Luckily, I only have one more nephew who isn’t in martial arts and his parents will probably handle that when it comes (hopefully not in the exact same way I did).
After that I only have a three year old niece and she might take me up on that Barbie doll offer.
I know I’m gonna get some crap for this but John, I wasn’t offended by what you said to your nephew. Guys say and do things in sports that perhaps to many would be offensive. I got the gist of what you were telling him. In fact, if I didn’t know better, you sound just like our recreational therapist.
The reality is, yeah, there are times that rules are broken, bad calls are made but that shouldn’t change the goal. It shouldn’t be an excuse. As they say, “shit happens” … I say, “build a bridge and get over it.” And I also know that what you said had absolutely nothing to do with a females ability …. Oh wait, didn’t I read somewhere that in Texas they lowered the requirements/ demands for women who want to go into the fire departments?
I do seasonal sports with our guys. Do you know how many games we attend that the score keeper screws up, the ref misses a call? Inevitably, some of our guys will get all out of joint about it. I’ve said things like (here is where I’m really gonna get shit) Okay, we’ll stop at the 7-11 and get you some tampons .. relax. They laugh and do actually get over it. Sorry ladies but this is how guys do talk to guys. What you may not understand is that these guys have good relationships with us. They are also shown how to “assertively” come to us if they have a problem. Please, don’t take these comments at face value …. Try to understand the dynamics involved in our relationship with these guys.
I’m willing to bet it’s not calling him a “woman” that’s the worst thing…it’s calling him a “woman on his period,” that’s the worst thing. Because, women on their period complain a lot…because the emotional irrationality and physical weakness associated with PMS (and the assumption that all/most women experience it) is a real thing and totally not a social construct associated with the medieval perception of women as over-emotional and weak.
Ugh.
I’ve never heard anyone call a woman a dick before, but I’ve heard them say that she probably has one making her equivalent to a man. It’s early and I haven’t had my coffee so I’m having trouble thinking of any, but are their some unfeminizing insults for men? Women are sometimes referred to as ball busters or I’ve heard statements like when is she going to give him back his balls. Women get criticized for emasculating men. Is the reverse true?
But why does womanhood have to come into it as an insult?
You’re assuming it was an insult of women but it was a taunt at the boy. The reason is because women and girls have entitlement in our society and therefore can whine and complain whereas men cannot.
It’s like saying to someone as a taunt, “Oh look who’s got his nose in the air; a young prince we got here lads.” As a way to slap someone down who is acting as if they were upper class or above their peers. If your logic were correct this taunt would imply that the rich are seen as beneath the poor whereas the reverse is true. It’s because the boy is acting above his station that he is taunted.
Interesting point of view, in fact I do agree that women are given far more leeway for “whinging”. I think that is more because they’re seen as weaker, but it could be that they’re ALLOWED to whinge, that men have to shutup n keep working no matter what (It’s also implied men are worth less, women are worth more and more worth of saving in emergencies). It’s not good either way though.
I suggest you all try to find a gender neutral way to relate to these boys, by that I mean don’t put down women, don’t mention tampons, etc. Tell them you understand they’re angry, but it’s not going to help, focus that anger into something beneficial n win the damn fight. I try my best to avoid any insults to women (it’s quite hard to unlearn when your society uses it).
Alright let’s look at it like this…there this general concept that apparently women are more entitled to whining (they aren’t…though perhaps they are more entitled to complain, so I’ll go with that)…let’s compare that to the idea that men are generally more entitled to aggression.
So men are more entitled to be aggressive. At the same time, our society largely has a negative association with aggression because, frankly, it can be a problem. So a man are more entitled to do this “bad thing,” and also more likely to be assumed to be doing this “bad thing,” even if he isn’t.
Women are more entitled to complain. At the same time, our society largely has a negative association with complaining because, frankly, it can be a problem. So a woman is more entitled to do this “bad thing,” and also more likely to be assumed to be doing this “bad thing,” even if she isn’t.
So far, so equal in our shit stereotypes. But then there’s this…when have you ever heard a woman insulted with a pejorative of a male term because she’s being too aggressive? Personally, I haven’t. No one ever tells a woman that she’s being too “manly” because she’s being aggressive. She probably won’t even be called a “dick,” which is a very masculine term for someone who is being aggressive. She will certainly be derided for not performing her gender correctly…think about all the shit Hilary Clinton got. (She will also be praised by a specific group of people who think that gender norms are a bit bullshit…i.e. feminists or at least people who espouse certain feminist ideas). In other words, she’ll be considered unwomanly, but NOT allowed access to the category of man or masculine.
Now let’s look at the theoretical man that starts complaining. Based on what you all are saying (and based on my own experiences) he’ll be insulted with a pejorative of a female term. Not only is he considered unmanly, but somehow it’s an insult to associate him with a woman too. (He will also be praised by a specific group of people who think that gender norms are bullshit…i.e. feminists or at least people who espouse certain feminist ideas).
That, right there, is where the imbalance is. Somehow it’s an appropriate insult to call a man who is not performing his gender correctly a woman…and yet the converse isn’t true. Why? Because in the mainstream consciousness there is something worth insulting about being a woman.
HeatherN, are you serious? Umm, Butch? caveman, “You’re acting like such a mann”, I’ve heard these insults to women before. Tomboy? Dick? Neanderthal, etc.
Because you are a woman is it likely that you either took more notice of insults to women, or have had more insults to women (aimed at you possibly)? I’ve heard more insults to men as I’ve been around men more than women and being a man they’ve been thrown at me. Both genders get shit for stepping out of line.
“Both genders get shit for stepping out of line.”
If you read what I’m saying…I didn’t say they didn’t both catch shit. I am very, VERY well aware that women catch shit for not performing their gender correctly. I’ve caught so much shit for it I should have gone pro (lol). But seriously, something like “butch” is meant to be insulting to a woman because she’s acting masculine…but it is not saying the woman “may as well be a man.” Same goes for tomboy. It is telling her she is not performing her gender correctly…it’s similar to calling a man “sissyboy.” That is saying “you are not masculine enough,” but it is not saying “you are a woman.”
Caveman and neanderthal also aren’t gendered terms…that’s not calling a woman a man as an insult, that’s calling her primitive as an insult. Yes, those insults are directed at men more often…but again, that is not an insult that is telling a woman that being a man is bad…not directly.
I have never heard a woman told “you’re acting like a man” or “you are a dick” as an insult.
Might I also add this means that women do have more flexibility when it comes to performing their gender. That is the other side to this.
According to wiki (take as you will:P) “Sissy is, approximately, the male converse of tomboy (a girl with “unfeminine” traits or interests), but has none of the latter’s positive connotations. Even amongst gay men, behavior thought of as sissy or camp produces mixed reactions. Some men reclaim the term for themselves.”. So to me I’d say tomboy is the closest, difference being tomboy has positive connotations (many of which are women who fought against it being a bad thing). I guess women are allowed more leeway with differing from gender roles, a large part of that I’d owe to feminism.
“But seriously, something like “butch” is meant to be insulting to a woman because she’s acting masculine…but it is not saying the woman “may as well be a man.””
See, I see this as implying she might as well be a man in some cases, I’ve heard them. I’ve heard plenty of times where someone has called a woman a butch and had a whole list of reasons why she might as well be a man, mostly with dress sense + strength + hobbies. It’s also a cheap tactic to call them unattractive.
“when have you ever heard a woman insulted with a pejorative of a male term because she’s being too aggressive?”
Butch/tomboy, heard it plenty of times. If it’s physical violence it’s butch/tomboy, if it’s mental violence (verbal bullying for instance) they’ll cop the bitch/catty insults. Heard ALL of these insults used by men and women.
@ Julie
“But why does womanhood have to come into it as an insult?”
I think it’s like spanking kids. It’s almost a form of lazy parenting. It’s a short hand way to correct undesirable behavior that might have unintended consequences. When Heather asked me how I would have liked to handle it, I said that I didn’t know. It might be that I can’t come up with as concise a way to do it, but to some extent, I don’t know if the message would have gotten through to me when I was 15 if it hadn’t been phrased that way.
I got into a fight with someone who was 6′ 3″ (I asked just before kicking him in the face) and was probably around 225 pounds. I gave up 8 inches and almost 100 pounds. I won’t get into the stupidity of the fight, but because of the size difference I used a technique that has potentially lethal consequences. I also “held up” on the blow so I didn’t actually crush his trachea. When you’re 17 or so years old, it’s not easy taking another’s life.
Sa Bam Nim found out and suspended me from the dojang for a month for using the strike. When I returned he made me do knuckle push ups because I held up on the strike. It confused the hell out of me. Why am I being punished because I could have killed someone and then punished again because I didn’t? It wasn’t until years after I left the dojang that I realized that they were two separate things. Don’t use the technique unless circumstances are dire, but if you do, do it correctly.
Sometimes a kid doesn’t have the same capacity to understand. We sometimes take short cuts because it’s convenient for us. I was spanked when I was a kid. I don’t feel that it negatively affected me much of at all. Is taking a short cut always wrong? I’m still wondering how I could have handled it differently while arriving eventually at the same results.
Getting told to “get over it” whether a cheap shot taken or a missed call on the court serves a good life lesson for these young men. Guess what, life ain’t always fair. You may not get on the A team. You may not get admitted to that college that you think you should. Learning when to engage and when to let it go is a part of life, If sucking back the tears from that shot you just took in the nose and pressing on gives you the tools to deal with challenges later when life is a lot less forgiving then its a valuable lesson. Getting together with all the concerned parties and talking the whole thing through would not be instructive for that particular lesson.
As well as the negative effect on individual boys and their families, not using educational approaches that allow boys to achive to the maximum of their ability also has negative effects on a country’s economy. Failing to educate girls is a factor in terms of the economic well-being of many countries in the developing world; failing to educate boys to the maximum of their potential may well prove to be a demographic time-bomb for many countries in the “developed” world. Lost potential is lost potential, regardless of the sex of the person concerned. Consider reading the article “Feminization of education threatens Canada’s economy” in The BC Catholic of Dec. 22, 2012.