Joanna Schroeder believes that comparing the word “slut” with the word “creep” is a false equivalence. But that doesn’t mean she thinks calling guys creeps is okay.
I’m a feminist. You all know that by now, right?
I refuse to stop calling myself a feminist, despite MRAs and feminists alike wishing I would drop that label.
Just because I disagree with a lot of the things that prominent feminists say, doesn’t mean I disagree with equality and with examining society with a focus on women. And despite some of the disgusting things being done in the name of feminism—whether it be the attack-mobs of Internet RadFems who have been actively trying to ruin the life of my friend Hugo Schwyzer, or the similar groups of feminists on the Internet who berate, belittle and demean men for voicing their feelings and concerns about equality and Men’s Rights issues—I still call myself a feminist. I believe I define my own feminism.
My feeling has always been that there is no reason for snark when simple dialogue would do the job. We don’t all have to agree. In fact we’re not ever all going to agree. But we need to respect one another.
That being said, I disagree with both the MRAs and the feminists when it comes to the word “creep”.
My aforementioned real-life friend Hugo Schwyzer wrote a piece for Jezebel about why men hate being called creepy. In trying to get to the root of why this insult is so much worse than any other that can be leveled at a man, he posits this:
…So if fear of the feminine is what gives male insults their power, why then is “creep” worse than “pussy?” The answer is that creep is the only insult that instantly centers women’s perceptions. To call a man a “pussy” is to make a comment about how his behavior appears; to call him “creepy” is to name how he makes women feel. If a man wants to disprove that he’s a “pussy,” all he has to do is act with sufficient macho swagger or courage to make the insult obviously inappropriate. But trying to disprove “creepy” involves trying to talk a woman out of an instinctual response to a potential threat, a much more difficult thing to do. Most men recognize (or eventually learn) that the harder they try to deny their creepiness, the creepier they appear.
I agree with Hugo on almost all of this. Especially the part where a guy who tries to talk a woman out of thinking he’s creepy makes him even more creepy. That doesn’t mean the guy is actually a bad guy, but it means he’s overstepping a boundary he should be respecting.
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What’s missing in this conversation is the understanding that the word “creep” keys into a way in which many men have felt deeply misunderstood and generalized. Not all men are creeps, not all are violent, not all are out just for sex. But in many ways, this is the brush with which we’ve painted masculinity. Not necessarily feminists, but society as a whole. Guys are so horny they’ll hump a fresh-baked pie. Men are so dangerous, they can’t be trusted with childcare. These assumptions go on and on. And while I do believe men need to understand that for some women these fears are rooted in reality, women and society need to see the ways in which men—especially those who struggle with social awkwardness—suffer under these assumptions.
We as a society, and as women, too easily jump to calling someone a creep without really thinking about what it implies. If you extrapolate it a bit, you’re telling a man that you’re afraid he’s going to rape you. Now, you may legitimately be afraid he’s going to rape you (and I believe our instincts about people should be trusted and we should keep away from people we get that sense from) but for all the guys we call creeps, we cannot possibly believe they all are out to sexually assault us.
We use the word to insult men because it works. It is hurtful. For a man who is sensitive to how people perceive him, it is the worst insult you can level at him. It is not to be taken lightly.
But MRAs, here’s what I think you’re missing: “Creep” and “Slut” are not on the same level, and to claim they are is to misunderstand what it means to be called a slut.
Think about it, what is a slut? It’s a woman with a sexual past, a whore, a woman with no sexual morality, a woman who will use sex indiscriminately, a woman who doesn’t value her body or her integrity. To some people, a slut is simply a woman who enjoys sex outside of marriage.
To many people, even people in authority, a slut is a woman who is asking to be raped.
The crime of sluttiness is not about behavior toward another individual. It isn’t about hurting another person or violating their space. It is about the value of the woman… Her value to herself, and her value to society as a sexual being.
More precisely, being a slut is about her lack of value. A slut is, in so many ways, lacking humanity. If she is asking to be raped, or somehow deserving of rape, she is not even human. She is a flesh-doll. As far as I know (correct me if I’m wrong) there is no insult in the English language that is equivalent to that for men. I’m not saying women have it worse, I simply want us to all be on the same page about what all of these words mean.
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So is being called a slut the same as being called a creep? No, a creep gets the name by doing something to somebody. By doing something that violates another person’s sense of security or physical space.
I’d like to be more precise with this equivalence and compare the word “creep” to the word “bitch.” Now, being a bitch is a specifically female thing, and it’s not a compliment. Strong women are often called bitches, just as strong men are often called assholes. But there is an element of the word “bitch” that is shameful. Like we can’t control our hormones, like the essence of our femaleness is inextricably linked to being animals; as if nature controls us. Like the moon and the tides may cause our hormones to swell and next thing you know a totally normal woman is no longer in control of herself and she’s become a bitch.
When you’re called a bitch, it’s implied that you have no control over yourself and you don’t care who you hurt.
When you’re called a creep, it’s implied that you have no control over yourself and you don’t care who you hurt.
The ultimate lesson here is that both “bitch” and “creep” serve important functions. As Hugo says, “No other word is as effective as describing when a man has crossed a woman’s boundary; no other word forces a man to reflect on how his behavior makes other people feel.”
I would say the same thing goes for the word “bitch.” Both words should cause the person being accused to stop for a moment and reflect upon what they’re doing, to ponder whom they’re hurting, and to think about how they may need to change their approach.
In turn, neither of these words should be used casually. They are powerful, gendered words. And as we know, words do hurt. Words can even kill, as we see with bullied teens all too often.
Ladies, calling a random guy you don’t like a creep does damage to him, it shames him. Consider for a moment, before you call someone a creep, whether he may actually just be shy or socially inexperienced. He may be doing his best in an unfamiliar situation. No need to wound someone who is taking a risk in talking to you.
That doesn’t mean you have to talk to someone just because he wants you to. You can clearly say, “You seem like a cool guy, but I’m not interested. I’m going to go back to talking to my friend (reading my book, checking my emails, etc) now. Have a good day.” Then turn away. If he persists after that, then maybe he is being a creep. Make your boundaries clear and stick with them.
And fellas, calling a woman a bitch does damage to her. It reduces her to something akin to a beast. You don’t have to put up with someone treating you unfairly, but instead of calling her a bitch, you can simply say, “I think this conversation isn’t going in a productive direction. Let’s talk later (or let’s not talk about this, or let’s not talk at all, etc).” And then walk away. If she persists after that, maybe she is being a bitch. You, too, need to make your boundaries clear and stick with them.
If we can come to a consensus to stop using these words, and replace them with words that are less gendered, less rich with painful social context, I think that’d be awesome. But we’d have to work together—feminists and MRAs, men and women. And until we’re ready to do that, we should perhaps all make an effort at choosing our words more carefully.
Image courtesy of Mykl Roventine
About Joanna Schroeder
I think you’re right about “bitch” being the more accurate equivalent to “creep,” as opposed to comparing “creep” with “slut.” In an earlier message, I did compare creep with slut, not really to make any particular anti-feminist or pro-MRA or “what about men?” point. I mostly mentioned it to back up someone else’s point about how easily the word “creep” gets tossed around. I think the creep/slut comparison is a fair one, but I do agree that bitchy is probably the better counterpart.
I also like the fact that you tell people to be careful using the word creep too freely. It’s not a meaningless word. It carries weight, even if from one perspective it seems like it’s trivial compared with being labeled a slut or a bitch. It’s a word that sticks and one that carries shame with it.
I agree that the battle over who has it worse wastes a lot of energy, and it’s not a zero sum game. Just because being called a creep is bad doesn’t mean that it’s not so bad to be called a slut.
I was disappointed that the article’s language suggested that the label “creep” is traceable to a man’s specific behavior, that if he doesn’t want to get called a creep, then he should do a, b, and c and not do x, y, and z. Of course one should listen to instinct, but your instinct may be triggered by something that is not really a distinct behavior or may not really be a threat at all.
Some women may just FEEL that a man is creepy and so brand him a creep. The fact that she feels that way becomes the proof that he is in fact a creep. It’s an unbreakable circle. That doesn’t automatically make him guilty of threatening behavior. It doesn’t mean you have to ignore your instincts, either. But it means you shouldn’t just label someone a shameful name because something doesn’t quite feel right. (“There’s just something about her. Stay away from her. I can just tell she’s a bitch.” That sounds like a pretty ridiculous branding based on something nebulous.) At the very least, if it’s a nebulous feeling then name the feeling and claim the feeling – when he is nearby, I feel ____. That is very different from telling everyone he’s a creep.
I do think communication across gender lines works best when there’s more a focus on specific behaviors and specific reactions to those behaviors than characterizing the nature of various people. A man could be nothing like a creep except this one particular behavior comes across as “creepy” to some people. Talking about how this thing comes across to other people is a much more constructive dialogue than what usually happens, which is that he IS simply “a creep.”
Same principle with calling someone a slut or bitch. Ask someone to explain what specific behavior ever warranted that label, and you’ll often see some really lazy thinking and really lame stereotyping. (“Wait a minute. You can see her bare ankle so that means she’s a slut? That’s the reason you’re calling her that?”)
You’ve made a great point. An important point. Thank you.
I would like to add, though, that sometimes the word “bitch” is celebrated by women. For reasons I don’t understand, some women are proud of the power that comes from self-identifying with the word. “Creep” just doesn’t earn the same value from men about themselves. However, some men are comfortable self-identifying with “asshole” and the power that comes from it. I don’t know why being disliked is desirable for either gender.
At the end of it all, we need to respect the language we use and the power words have. The intent of the speaker should always be considered.
Stephen, I agree about Bitch being celebrated. It bothers me, too.
When I was in high school, my brother and I were arguing about something. He goes, “why are you acting like this?” and I go, “Because I’m a bitch!” and he goes, “Nobody calls my sister a bitch. Not even you.”
That moment taught me two things: 1. The power of words. To harm both others when used against them, and also to create the reality of how others see you. And 2. The power of self-talk and self-image.
I can’t speak to other groups reclaiming words of oppression, as it’s not up to me to decide. But for me, “Bitch” is never, ever a word of empowerment. Nor is slut.
This is a really thoughtful piece, and I agree with your point that both words are powerful and should be used with caution. But I’m not sure I agree with a fundamental premise here.
If you extrapolate it a bit, you’re telling a man that you’re afraid he’s going to rape you.
That’s not what I take from the word “creep” – at least not entirely, that’s just one part of it. I think the “creep” thing generalises much more accurately to “you make my flesh crawl.” Now, that might be some kind of rapey alarm signal going off, but often it isn’t. Guys who get labelled ‘creep’ are often considered no threat at all, indeed it can be precisely a lack of aggression and threat that makes them come over as creepy.
Personally I think there’s a simpler explanation for the hurt taken by the word ‘creep’ (I said something similar to Hugo the other night) – I wrote something to Hugo the other night, that (forgive me) I’ll paste again here:
I don’t think the power of the word ‘creep’ is so much to do with fear of women’s agency or fear of the feminine – it is much more to do with the centrality of sexual pulling-power to men’s (particularly young, single men’s) sense of self-worth.
For whatever reasons (and we could be here all day) the ability to find a sexual partner is *the* overwhelming marker of young man’s sense of status or success. You can have a guy who is the star athlete, academic genius, popular with his peers etc etc etc, but if he can’t get laid ever or often, can’t get a girlfriend, he will hate himself and quite probably hate his life. (I’m not saying that’s how it needs to be, of course, just how it often is.)
Part of that is down to peer-pressure and social norms, but I think it goes much deeper than that, it is embedded in our whole cultural model of what it means to be a man and to *become* a man, it’s implanted at an early age and reinforced from all sides, constantly.
When a woman uses the ‘creep’ word, what she is saying to the guy it is not just “you’re not the one for me”, or “I’m not in the mood” or whatever, it says “you are actively repellant – it’s not just that I don’t want to have sex with you, no woman in her right mind is going to want to have sex with you.”
That hits the guy like a knife in the guts, it attacks the very core of his sense of identity. If he is already of low confidence or self-esteem, it will be agonising.
So, (back to you Joanne!) I actually agree with you that the analogy with “slut” is wrong, but nor am I convinced by the analogy to “bitch” either. What I would say is that all three are gendered insults that attack our own gender ideals and identity.
Personally I think the words ‘creep’ and ‘bitch’ are occasionally acceptable, because sometimes men can be creepy and sometimes women can be bitchy, but people who use them should at least be aware of just how heavy and hurtful they are.
I don’t think it is ever acceptable to call a woman a slut as an insult, because unlike the other two, I don’t think there is anything wrong with the behaviours associated with the word. That’s the key difference.
You can have a guy who is the star athlete, academic genius, popular with his peers etc etc etc, but if he can’t get laid ever or often, can’t get a girlfriend, he will hate himself and quite probably hate his life.
As someone who fits this profile, I will agree. I’m incredibly intelligent, own my own business, and I’m talented in many ways, but I have never had a girlfriend or been on a date. I am not even particularly unattractive. All of the great things about myself and my life mean absolutely nothing because I am serially unable to even the most cursory interest from women. In a sense, it is worse because I look at these things and think, “Even with all of this going for me, I am still so unpalatable as to not even get a second look.”
If he is already of low confidence or self-esteem, it will be agonising.
As someone who has been called a creep more than once because of my inherent shyness, this is also quite true. Nothing helps to boost your already tenuous grasp on self confidence when you finally pluck up the courage to talk to a girl like being told you’re a creep!
Collin, my sympathies.
If I could suggest anything, I would say read your classics. Read Plato (The Republic, especially). Immerse yourself in a disciplined discussion of the best way to live. I recommend the classics because the classical model of manhood has no place for these sentiments you’re excoriating yourself with. Instead, it offers an alternative in the examination and applicability of virtues appropriate for a man. Sexual success is so far below the level of these virtues that you may shudder to think you ever wasted a second anguishing over whether a woman found you attractive.
The ancients knew well how desire could lead to exactly the kind of confusion and loss of self you’re struggling with. Modern society is infatuated with desire; you’re not going to get any useful perspectives on it from that corner. I think it’s better to study the issue among those who saw in the context of a man’s duties to himself and to the community of elevated beings whose eyes were on the virtues worthy of a civilized person.
Best of luck.
I really agree with this, Ally:
And that’s what I’m saying. Creep is just so mean and I’m not sure women really “get it” what they’re doing to men when they say it. I believe it’s a useful word, as Hugo suggests in the Jez article, but it cannot be taken lightly. It cannot be used to hurt someone or it diminishes its function.
And I agree that “slut” serves no function. I really hate that word with a passion. There is no male equivalent to a slutty guy in our language. A guy who is loose-moralled with his sexuality, especially if he enjoys it? His “self” isn’t diminished by these sexual acts, in fact he is often bolstered by them in the eyes of society. As Collin suggests, we find it “creepier” to be a guy like Collin who hasn’t had a girlfriend, than we find a guy who has slept with 100 women by the time he’s Collin’s age.
And that’s fucked. Sex should stay out of our judgements of people. Collin should be regarded for all his attributes other than whom he has slept with, just as the guy who has banged half of the Westside. Keep your sexuality and sex history out of character judgements. For all.
Joanna,
I’m honestly curious, where do you get your definitions of negative words from?
I’m asking because where I went to high school/college, all of those words were used, but none had the connotations that you seem to ascribe to them.
For example, men were regularly called b-tch, as were women, with the understanding that it had to do with making arguments (usually complaints) overly rooted in personal emotions. On the other hand, women and men who were overly cautious were both called p-ssy. Women and men who were assertive were regularly called a-holes.
Don’t get me wrong, there’s still gender problems here, but I have a hard time accepting many of your arguments because I just don’t agree with the colloquial definitions of the underlying words.
For me, the biggest problem is when we get to slut. In all honesty, I have never heard a man use that word to apply to a woman ever. I didn’t hear it in high school, I don’t recall hearing it in college, I certainly don’t hear it in grad school now.
I have, however, heard women use it to refer to each other (negatively) since high school (though thankfully it seemed to die off after college). Therefore, it’s difficult for me to accept the kinds of arguments you make, because, again, I just don’t see the word used the way you describe it.
Maybe this isn’t an answerable question, but is there a way I can find out how most people use these words? I seems like there’s a strong incentive for all sides to tweak the definitions (and make claims about who’s using the word) in order to prove arguments, but that just makes the proofs ultimately unsatisfying to those of us who don’t experience the words in those ways.
Might I suggest urbandictionary.com
I thought about it, I even liked the idea of “crowdsourcing” the definition through the thumbs-up thumbs-down system.
The only problem is that the urban dictionary definitions are never going to include the deeper sociological subtexts that most of these arguments require.
Now, I could post a bunch of such definitions on urban dictionary and then collect the results in, say, a year’s time. That might even be an interesting experiment. I’ll have to think it over…
Mike, you do make some interesting points about the use of terms – and even unwittingly uncover how some are Sociologically linked.
I keep finding language such as Slut, Bitch, Creep, Stud, Macho Man, Fruit Homo … being used in new and novel ways. They even change with fashion.
Most frequently they are used Ironically – and even humorously – in social interchanges. Even “Slutwalk” is ironic in it’s use and reclaiming of language.
The big issues arise when the language is used in deliberately damaging ways. For examples of that “Urbandictionary” is a gold mine (Or Open Sewer) of examples.
I have to agree, I can’t think of a time where I’ve heard guys refer to a sexually active woman as a slut. (Other than Rush Limbaugh.) I’ve heard them say things like, “she’s out of control hot!”
Or if they view her negatively, they might say she’s “skanky” or a “whore.” Which are also insulting of course. “Slut” however was a word that I recall mostly women using in high school and college, usually to disparage a girl who was attractive and highly flirtatious, whether she was sleeping around or not, especially if she was flirtatious with other girls’ boyfriends.
That’s a very good point, Ally. So the real equivalent of “creep” would be something more like “fat” or “ugly”.
Yes, the term is used in reaction to appearance as much as behavior. Ask how a man could avoid being labeled as a creep and some of the advice is essentially about his appearance — “that haircut and those glasses make you look like a serial killer.” (I was wearing those ugly glasses long before Jeffrey Dahmer was. That’s not my fault. Okay, maybe that’s a bad example….)
Let me preface this by saying I’m not a woman, so I really can’t speak to how it feels to be called a bitch, but I feel like being called an uncontrollable rapist might be SLIGHTLY more damaging than being called uncontrollably rude or mean-spirited. People rarely spend their better part of their lives repressing memories of an encounter with that bitch they ran into at a party. There is no concept of “bitch survivor”. While it’s true that calling someone a creep is not identical to calling them a rapist, it’s close enough that it might as well be.
I agree that you can’t really compare creep to slut, but I vehemently disagree that “bitch” is the female equivalent to creep. I really don’t think there IS a female equivalent, because our culture views sexual violence as inherently man-against-woman. I don’t want to play who-has-it-worse, but creep isn’t just “You don’t care who you hurt”, it’s “you don’t care whose life you ruin.” You are such a piece of shit that you would destroy another human being’s sense of security, self-worth, and agency just because you can. Calling you a human is too good for you — you’re a monster, a demon — loathsome, disgusting and irredeemably EVIL. In that sense, creep IS like slut — it reduces you to something less than human. The feeling of being a doll is, I’m sure, fundamentally different than the feeling of being a devil, but I can’t honestly say which, if either, is worse, having never felt the former.
I’ve been fortunate enough to have only been called a creep twice in my life, and both times by people who were obviously doing it solely to hurt me, but it cut much deeper than what I see bitch doing to my friends. I know more than a couple women who call themselves “a total bitch” in a humorous, self-depreciating manner. I’ve never met a guy who does the same with creep.
Well except…being called a “creep” is different to being called a “rapist.”
Agreed, and I said as much in the first paragraph. Creep only means someone who one fears will be sexually violent, where rapist means someone who has actually done sexual violence. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt like you’ve been called a rapist, especially for guys who value affirmative consent highly.
I can’t think of any time in recent memory where I’ve called a man a “creep,” although there have been times where I thought to myself, “wow that’s creepy” or “ugh, I’m creeped out.” However, I would not say that it has anything to do with fearing rape or violence. If I fear violence, I think “I’m scared.” Two examples: (1) a strange guy approached me in a dark parking lot at the grocery store while I was putting my groceries in the trunk. He came up kind of suddenly and startled me. He said he wanted to help me load my groceries. He got quite close to me and started to grab one bag out of the shopping cart. I said very loudly, “I don’t want your help, go away! Go!” It wasn’t creepy, it was frightening. I threw my groceries in the trunk and got in the car and drove away as fast as I could. He got out of the way of my car but stood there staring at me as I drove off. I don’t know if he was homeless or crazy or wanted to rape me or what, but I wasn’t sticking around. When I told people about it later, I don’t think I called him a creep, I called him a weird guy who scared the bejeezus out of me.
Okay, example (2). I was at a meetup.com event (not a singles event) and a guy I’d met very briefly earlier in the evening, who had tried to talk to me at length about going to “Furry” conventions (not there’s anything wrong with that, but, really? First topic you discuss with a woman you’ve never met?) came up behind me while I was talking to someone else and put his hand on my shoulder like we were dating. That, yes, creeped me out. But I wasn’t frightened, I didn’t feel threatened, I just did not like this guy invading my space.
1 kinda sounds like someone trying to be helpful and probably not realizing that approaching unknown women at night would make many nervous. I’d be nervous too as a male, even if it was a female approaching.
2 sounds pretty damn creepy, was he drunk? Possibly he felt you 2 were more closer than reality, could be cultural differences in touching. I’ve had female friends touch me on the leg when talking for instance (when sitting), and I’d never dream of doing that first. So I wonder if he simply felt far more comfortable than you did, felt ok to goto the next steps in the friendly touch (hand on shoulder).
I am wondering if for number one, would explaining how you felt to him have made a difference? Maybe to educate him at least? Do you think he was aware he was making you uncomfy? Usually people can read body language and understand you are uncomfy, he may have poor skills in this regard and cross too far without knowing. I know in highschool I crossed too far too quick once or twice and soon learned not to do that again. It was hugging someone who was a huggy person with others but I didn’t realize the others were actually long time friends outside of school. Plus in high-school I was about 6’4 and 250lbs+, she would have been about 5 foot and 100ish so I later found out my physical size alone would make women uncomfy. When I found out that my size was making the girls nervous I felt absolutely terrible, I didn’t realize they’d be nervous around someone who’s twice their size (dumb 15 year old I was). These days I am well aware of it but also found the flipside that some women feel more safer around me. Now it’s become the women in my life cross first into my personal space and do so with ease whilst I am still holding back unsure of what’s fine and what isn’t. Human interaction can be very confusing for some of us.
There seemed to be something not quite right with the parking lot guy. His behavior was so completely inappropriate — you just don’t walk up to a stranger in a dark parking lot and start grabbing their groceries without permission. That’s way beyond social awkwardness, it’s just — weird. It’s possible that he was a harmless but extremely clueless guy, but there were several less pleasant possibilities ranging from panhandler, to scam artist (was he going to ask me for money for the bus? I’ve heard that one several times), to purse snatcher, to rapist (was he going to grab me instead of the groceries?). The most benign possibility is that he was an innocent guy with something like high functioning autism or Asperger’s Syndrome who simply didn’t understand the social context of what he was doing. It’s just really hard to stay in a situation like that to try to find out.
I agree, it’d give me the heebiejeebies
Well except…being called a “creep” is different to being called a “rapist.””
Well – that does depend on context, and the social situation at the time! P^)
There are far too many examples of the use of the term Creep to imply sexual predation and rapism to say there is a difference and there is no equivalence!
On too many occasions, and in too many contexts, the terms Creep and Proto-rapist are seen as interchangeable and equivalent.
It’s just not seen as socially acceptable to accuse someone of being a rapists in advance of the fact – so creep is used!
Question. Do you think there is a difference in meaning between a woman saying a man “creeped her out,” and a woman calling a man a creep/creepy? I’m having a hard time articulating it but it feels like there’s a difference to me.
Whenever I hear “creepy” my mind always follows it with “crawly” so I think of bugs. A lot of bugs aren’t creepy to me – praying mantises, worms, ladybugs, dragonflies, roly-polies, all pretty benign. I can think about or see these bugs and not be bothered. Some bugs, though, are creepy. Centipedes, in particular. They’re creepy because when I think about them or see them, my mind jumps to what it would feel like if all those legs were crawling on me, and how fast they are – too fast for me to catch & squoosh them – and how many of them there might be in my basement. *Shudder*
While some of the creepy bugs are venomous, chances are they aren’t really a threat to me, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to pick them up, or even be cool with them being in the same room as me. In fact, if I see another centipede in my basement like the one I saw two weeks ago, I will scream like a little girl. Luckily, bugs can’t be shamed.
Ok, serious topic, sorry. The same goes for guys, though. The vast majority of guys out there are roly-polies. They’re not going to bother me, I’m fine being around them and interacting with them, and I would not call them creepy. But there are some guys, a very small number in comparison, who are obviously centipedes, and I will avoid them and be suspicious of them and call them creepy and maybe even scream if they come too close.
The trouble starts when women start assuming most or even all men are centipedes, and start giving even the roly-polies grief for being too similar to centipedes just because they’re both bugs.
KKZ: Fascinating distinction!
What does everyone else think?
I think you can make a distinction. I get creeped out by things some kids do, swear to God. And some things women do. I have women in my life who seriously creep me out, make the skin on my neck go goose bumpy in a really bad way. But are they “creeps”? No, because we really think of a creep as a man only.
You can be creeped out without the person being creepy, people make mistakes and we can mis-read their intentions as well (a big part of the problem I think). I’ve heard stuff some women say that creep me out, men don’t really creep me out as much simply because I can read male body language better than I can female body language so I have a better understanding of what they are doing I guess. I can feel unsafe though around some men or women, only thing that really creeps me out is certain behaviour around kids. My lil detective instinct has popped up sometimes when in public, seeing the way a child might look fearful around their parent…that’s definitely creeped me out and kept me on guard to make sure that kid is safe.
“Question. Do you think there is a difference in meaning between a woman saying a man “creeped her out,” and a woman calling a man a creep/creepy? I’m having a hard time articulating it but it feels like there’s a difference to me. ”
There is a very clear distinction – on multiple fronts!
“He Creeped Me Out” – the person saying this attributes the reaction, if only in part, to their personal reaction. It also uses the past simple tense, making it clear that the matter is over.
“He Is A Creep” – that uses the verb “to be” coupled with the present simple tense to communicate a supposed fact that is wholly owned by the person labelled – the language states a supposed universal fact that all agree with. It implies that all people, irrespective of their internal motivations, will agree that the person is a Creep! It also implies clear and present danger across past, present and future.
In the same way “He Creeped Me Out” and “You’re A Creep” have very different implications – one is past and the other is again a supposed universal truth being stated using the simple present tense – and makes the matter a personal statement to the person being labelled – as well as a supposed univeral truth across past, present and future.
For contrast – consider “He/She Caused Trouble” with “He/She is A Trouble Maker”!
Or “She Acted Like A slut” Vs “She’s A Slut”.
Or “She Was Being Bitchy.” Vs “She’s A Bitch”.
Of course the written word does not provide the nuances of tone, intonation and social context – and that can actually change the meanings to have the opposite effects. A rising tone at the end makes it a question – a flat tone a fact, and a dropping tone implies the negative!
Language and words have distinct and powerful meanings – and such meanings and uses are open to manipulation and abuse.
He’s a creep said with a wry smile and in a joking fashion is very different to the same phrase delivered with anger and very different vocal intonation.
Sorry If I appear to be Language Pedant – it comes from teaching the subject to people who have English as a 2nd, 3rd, 4th… language. They don’t just learn words – they have to learn all the social nuances of what words and meanings are – across contexts.
“Question. Do you think there is a difference in meaning between a woman saying a man “creeped her out,” and a woman calling a man a creep/creepy?”
Yes there is a difference and it is fundamental. The first formulation is talking about how she feels. It is about her. the second charactierizes him. It is about him. Big difference. The first one is a lot likelier to be accurate.
Actually, Heather, you can’t call someone a “rapist” unless they’ve actually raped someone (or if you want to slander them) but the implication of the word “creep” is that they’ve likely at least entertained the thought of rape, among other possibilities. It’s an ugly word, and it’s intended to wound, and like the most toxic appellations (slut, for instance) it doesn’t require corroboration to do its damage.
I wasn’t saying it isn’t a toxic word…I was just saying it’s different to calling someone a rapist. I’ve had conversations with men (and women) who I thought were creepy, but I didn’t think they entertained the thought of rape. That can be part of the label when used by some people, certainly. But, it’s not inherent in using the term. Which, mind you, I’m not saying it’s a good term to use.
Agreed, Heather.
My point is that it’s a gendered word, much like “slut” or “bitch.” As a society, we have to start being honest about language, and what it means. A word cannot be off-limits simply because it’s aimed at women, if a different word is freely used to describe men.
I generally flinch at words like “bitch” or “slut” when applied to women, but I do so because I’ve been conditioned to do so, not because women can’t be “bitchy” or “slutty,” if we run with the notion that those words describe actions or behaviour. And, as ugly, gendered insults, they’re mud-slinging words that tend to stick.
“Creepy” or “creepy” used to describe a man’s behaviour also sticks, and yet popular wisdom has it that men should just shut up and put up with it, simply because they’re men, whether their behaviour is ACTUALLY “creepy” or just insecure or shy in the same way that a woman isn’t “bitchy,” just independent and forthright, or sexually self-confident enough to arouse enough resentment for someone (and not just men) to call her a “slut.”
I’m all for de-fanging language, but if it’s to have any actual value, it can’t just be applied to words that are aimed at shaming women.
Um…I agree. Joanna agrees too, which is why she wrote this article.
My point was just that the term “creep” doesn’t necessarily imply that the person is being perceived as a potential rapist.
This could be a regional thing, but where I’m from, “creep” always has connotations of sexual violence. It could be that the creep is only thinking about it and would never act on it, but you don’t call someone a creep because they have a weird laugh.
Could be a regional thing, yeah.
I’ve decided there must be something regional about this word giving it a different connotation.
Yeah creep and rapist or pedophile are interlinked here in Australia where I am. Hence the sting of it, it can really make you feel like a monster.
Archy – that common language that divides rears it’s ugly head again!
Bonza, aint it! P^)
Man, I have just never been in the same circles as other people around here. I have been called creepy because I did things to weird people out (with purpose) and I could sneak up on people easily, but never a creep. As for “sluts” and “bitches” (in the context of a woman you don’t like), we always attributed that to white folk terms. “Hoes”, “bitches” and “females” were used interchangeably for a woman of non-blood relation
Sorry, above post the line should have read “a similar word is freely used to describe men” not “a different word word is freely used to describe men.”
Yes, Heather, we know. You’ve made that same point several times now. We all know what “creep” doesn’t necessarily imply that the person is is being perceived as a potential rapist.
The only reason I keep making it is because I keep seeing people reply to it as if they disagree or as if they are misunderstanding me.
I really couldn’t disagree with you more, Joanna. You are just so off the mark here. Being called a creep is orders of magnitude WORSE than being called a slut. It isn’t even close. Being called a slut isn’t a good thing, but it doesn’t imply anything horrible like being called a creep. Being a creep implies a sort of sinister malice. It evokes thoughts of pedophiles, serial predators, guys who lurk in the shadows and commit heinous and unspeakable acts. That is infinitely worse than being called a slut.
You also state: No, a creep gets the name by doing something to somebody.
This also is not true. You can be labeled a creep by the things you don’t do. You don’t approach a woman, you don’t say hello, you don’t do this or that. I am not sure how you can believe that it is worse to be called easy to get in bed than being called deviant, sinister, and like a pedophile.
Collin has an excellent point. Being called a “slut” isn’t a universal rebuke, nor does it call for a general shunning (this being the 21st century, not the 17th, for instance) but a call for shunning is implicit in the term “creep.” And Collin is also quite right that, like the word “slut,” the word “creep” or “creepy” doesn’t require any action to support the label. How many times have we heard the phrase, “I don’t know what it is. I can’t put my finger on it, but he creeps me out. Just watch yourself.”
Well, that speaks to Hugo saying that creepiness is a “sense” of someone. But so its “bitch”… I don’t equivocate “slut” with “creep” even remotely. They are so not even equivalent, which is my entire point.
With all due respect, Michael, I think “slut” does, however, call for a general shunning, except in the cases as I mentioned in the comments above, where some women have reclaimed it. I’m incredibly uncomfortable with reclaiming the terms slut and bitch, but I also refuse to negatively self-talk and call myself names.
To me, “slut” is never neutral. Even in reclaiming it, there is still a ton of power to it, it’s either a conscious rejection of the typical definition and challenge to the authority the word holds (Ie Slutwalks) or a sign of being an insider in a group (i.e. unfamiliar women don’t walk up to women they don’t know well and go, “what’s up, sluts?”) – it’s the reclaiming of a word and saying to men and society, we own this now, you can’t hurt us with it anymore, we’re all a bunch of sluts!, but even that has a massive amount of power.
I can’t think of a time “slut” has ever been anything but a rebuke.
Joanna, also with respect, no one, least of all any man, has the luxury of contemplating “reclaiming” the word “creep” or “creepy,” and there is nothing in the word “slut” (unlike the word “creep”) that carries the undertaste that the person being called that word would be better off kept away from society, perhaps even incarcerated. That’s all I was saying.
I’d love to ask the women who read through this comment thread whether they’ve heard “slut” used in a neutral way… I’m not trying to be sassy at all, even remotely. I am a 35 year old mother of two children who works from home. I’m not exactly out with the youth anymore!
I can only say that no one in my community uses it neutrally, nor did anyone I know back pre-2004 when I disappeared from the Hollywood/club/party/social scene.
I see women use slut in friendly insulting banter to each other, although this area is weird as people say all kinds of insulting shit as a joke to each other. The C word can be used in a neutral way such as friends saying “Sup C*** “, it’s also pretty much never used to refer to female genitalia here.
I’ve also heard it used in an ironic fashion by one woman to another, as a way to suggest the opposite, like “it’s only been 10 years since your divorce and you’re already having sex again? What a slut.”
I seem to remember a frequent commenter to GMP who self-identified as female and as, essentially, a sex-positive genderqueer slut or something to that effect. I have the sense that within certain sexual communities, “slut” is used in a way that attempts to claim power over the term.
I just read Hugo’s article, and it made me feel physically ill. It is so horribly misandrist. I don’t even know how you’re friends with him Joanna! That article doesn’t have a single redeeming quality and basically says that any man who things that creep is overused and a bad thing to call a man is a misogynistic monster who wants to get back to the “good old days” when men could be predators.
I agree that some people use the word “creep” inappropriately. That’s why I wrote the article. Lots of feminists talk about how important it is to keep the word “creep” in our vernacular, but not many feminists actually identify with the experience of men being called a creep for simply not doing what a woman expects.
I’m not even saying, “creep” is worse than “slut” I’m simply saying they do not compare. We’re talking apples and oranges here. One isn’t better. One isn’t worse. They just are different.
It is worse. It is much worse. You comparing suggesting someone is an unsavory sinister and potentially deviant criminal with someone who isn’t selective about their sexual partners. One isn’t an inherently bad thing, and one is something that people get locked up for life for.
as I said in another comment, I don’t agree that when womensay “creep” they mean “potential rapist.” often I think it is used to,refer to any man who is giving unwanted sexual attention in a way that the woman does not like. A young woman in my office told me that she thought our (much older, married) boss was a “creep” because he kept sending her chatty messages on Facebook after hours and hung around her desk all the time to make small talk with her. He had an obvious crush on her although she conceded that he never said or did anything that rose to the level of sexual harassment. He was always talking enthusiastically about wanting to “mentor” her in her career, which was a little strange because she was doing clerical work and he was an executive, so what exactly did he mean by mentoring? She ended up finding a different job. Anyway, I don’t think she feared any violence from him, she just didn’t like the fact that he was being so “friendly” in a borderline inappropriate way that crossed her professional and personal boundaries.
And to clarify, I’m not arguing that “creep” is a harmless word, I think it is a hurtful word. But my point is it doesn’t necessarily equate with fear of violence.
When some men and women call a woman a “slut,” they don’t necessarily mean that she’s a “whore” either. But it’s the wrong thing to do because of how it makes the woman feel, or see herself, or makes others see her. Likewise, it really doesn’t matter whether every woman who tosses off the word “creep” means to brand the object of her derision a potential rapist, either. The word has been used to devastating effect, whatever she means, or meant.
Lots of feminists talk about how important it is to keep the word “creep” in our vernacular, but not many feminists actually identify with the experience of men being called a creep for simply not doing what a woman expects.
Well what do you expect?
Clarrise Thorn did a similar piece on this about a year ago and sure enough there were some feminists that simply could not handle the fact that creep is actually used in a way that is not a genuine expression but rather a weapon meant to hurt people. Too many people like the plausible deniability of its use. The argument being, “You don’t know how I meant to use it!” But mind you some of these same people manage to know exactly what every single use of the word “bitch” is about.
“Clarrise Thorn did a similar piece on this about a year ago and sure enough there were some feminists that simply could not handle the fact that creep is actually used in a way that is not a genuine expression but rather a weapon meant to hurt people. Too many people like the plausible deniability of its use.”
Well observed! The “I Only called him a creep because I perceived his as creep” defence is misleading – and disingenuous !
A man trying the “I Only called her a slut because I perceived her general attire, public demeanour and overly social ways as indicative of sluttish behaviour” ….Oh a lynching is not nice to witness!
The double standards are comical sometimes!
Do As I Say, Not As I Call! P^)
That’s why I wrote the article. Lots of feminists talk about how important it is to keep the word “creep” in our vernacular, but not many feminists actually identify with the experience of men being called a creep for simply not doing what a woman expects.
I have no problem with keeping it because its actually a fitting word at times however I’m not so sure that many feminists actually want to identify with the experience men being called creep for not doing what a woman expects. Its all about language control, some of the very stuff that Hugo talks about. At the same time he is accusing men of trying to remove creep from the language for their gain he and other feminists want to keep it in the language not as a description of men who cause women to be uncomfortable but so that women can use it as a weapon while still having the plausible deniability of being genuinely uncomfortable.
I kinda think that’s why even in so called progressive spaces bitch is off limits but its open season on calling people dicks when they commit some jerk like behavior. (But I wager bringing that up will cause them to use the “but feminists didn’t start that” defense which apparently means its okay for feminists do say and do horrible things as long as said horrible thing didn’t originate from feminism.)
Thank you, Joanna, for your well-thought out article…
I have an 11 yo boy at home and I have to teach him about avoiding cars that slow down to try ask for directions…While I wait to pick him up from school (we only live a few blocks away!), I hear a mother in the next car telling her daughter the same thing I told my son (about how predators use various ruses to start a conversation with innocent children)…
The reason I have such anxiety about my son is that I don’t want him to ever experience what I had to go through riding the subways and buses and commuter trains as a child of age 11 or 12…what I experience now as a 46 year old woman (and many people tell me I look much younger) is not much different than what I experienced as a child, even though I wear a big diamond ring and wedding band that I wave in people’s faces…What I find offensive is men who try to accost young girls trying to go to junior high and high school (could it be that I’m just trying to get to school on time and don’t care to be touched or talked to?)….I also find offensive the utter disregard for my utter disinterest in them (could it be possible that maybe I already have a BF, fiancé, or husband and that’s why I’m wearing a big expensive ring?)…
Maybe some women ride the subway or buses to get to work or school and don’t want to be bothered (that’s why they are buried in their book or newspaper….although that has not deterred men from trying to grope me or leaving me alone!)…Check out the stories on iHollaback.org (some women do not welcome such attention and would prefer to be left undisturbed!)
There is a great deal of discussion here about the toxicity of the word “slut,” and it’s primarily centred on how it makes women feel, what they hear when they hear the word “slut.” What I don’t hear a lot of is understanding about what a man hears when he hears the word “creep,” or what it means to a man’s sense of himself when he’s called that. The real power in words is not their ability to identify (because words mean different things to different people) but in their ability to alter self-perception on the part of their targets.
Spend some time in the shoes of an unmarried (or gay) man who spends a great deal of time around young children, either his own, his friends’ or family’s, or those with whose care he’s been entrusted, then let’s talk about whether calling that man “creepy” for no other reason than one’s own feelings about unmarried men being around children is “creepy,” is worse than being called a “slut.”
This is a great point, Michael.
I think what we need to keep our eye on here is that we cannot create an oppression olympics of which word is “worse”. We need to break them all down, and understand one another clearly about how each of these words affects others.
I couldn’t have said that better myself.
What I don’t hear a lot of is understanding about what a man hears when he hears the word “creep,” or what it means to a man’s sense of himself when he’s called that.
I think that is the result of the script of being a man saying that we can’t talk about pain and sadness. Oh we can rage over how angry we are about being called a creep, but talking about how that hurts? That’s quite a tall order. But I think its one that needs to be filled no matter how many people want to insist that creep is never used in an unacceptable manner.
I’ll share a little example of what being called or labeled a creep actually does to a good guy. I’ll use myself as an example. One time a woman told me that I had a creepy smile. I don’t know why she said it, but she did. Since that day I am terrified of smiling at a pretty woman. As a good man, the last thing I want to do is do something that is going to make a woman feel uncomfortable, and that is definitely something that being creepy does. That’s exactly what we don’t want to do. And I can’t bring myself to smile because the only thing going through my head is, “I really really hope this doesn’t make her uncomfortable. I’ve been told I have a creepy smile. I don’t want to appear creepy.” etc.
This really gets down to it, I think. The word creepy can be flung around at any woman’s discretion, at any time for any reason. I’ve known men who were labeled “creep” because they had a lazy eye or an involuntary muscular tic
I would say the same thing goes for the word “bitch.” Both words should cause the person being accused to stop for a moment and reflect upon what they’re doing, to ponder whom they’re hurting, and to think about how they may need to change their approach.
I like the fact that you feel this way but I think you are of a rather minority opinion. There is no shortage of material (not from just feminists but from women in general) that will declare from the highest of mountains that bitch cannot possibly have any acceptable use. Mind you a lot of these same people will then fight tooth and nail to that creep does have acceptable uses (and some will even go as far as to say that creep is NEVER used in an unacceptable manner).
I read that piece on Jezebel and could not help but feel that the author got the entire thing wrong. Had I checked the by-line I would have known better.
I cannot agree with the original piece, or this reply, for several reasons.
Let’s begin with the use of the word “creep.”
Both the original piece, and this one, posit that “creep” is unique because “no other word forces a man to reflect on how his behavior makes other people feel.”
Of course, this is patently false. Any man who has ever been called an a-hole to his face (or found out it being used behind his back) is usually forced to come to terms with it. Speaking from personal experience, it’s been a real struggle for me because I tend to have a lot of self-confidence, and that inevitably results in some part of any audience I address using that word to refer to me. I don’t like it, and often before public presentations I’ll try to closely examine my language to ensure that there is as little room for misunderstanding as possible.
Simply put, there are definitely other words that make men reflect on how their behavior makes other people feel.
Of course, this is going to be ignored, because Dr. Schwyzer has been playing upon the same untrue trope for years, which is expressed in this particular piece as “the sooner the term becomes socially unacceptable, the sooner men can get back to not having to think about women’s boundaries.”
The false assertion here is that some great number of men do not care about the “women’s boundaries.”
Traditional masculinity is about being strong, and silent, and bearing the great burdens so that others do not have to. This is perhaps best exemplified in Hemingway’s wonderful short story “A Day’s Wait” where a young boy, who believes himself about to die, attempts to bottle up his emotions rather than unload them on his father. This is traditional masculinity, and far from not caring about the boundaries of the other, the entire goal is to keep your problems from ever spilling outside of yourself, ever.
So, if “creep” is not the only word that can cause a man to think about how others view his behavior, and traditional masculinity includes no great drive to overwhelm the boundaries of others, then why is creep such an offensive term?
The answer is incredibly simple. Creep, like all other extremely offensive words, plays into age old stereotypes.
In this instance, the stereotype is obvious, and it is hit upon by both Ms. Schroeder and Dr. Schwyzer.
In our society, men are stereotyped as aggressors, attackers, and ultimately rapists. This stereotype is experienced regularly by divorced dads who are not trusted to watch the playmates of their children because the other parents don’t really trust children around a lone man. It’s experienced by men who are arrested and forced to do a “perp walk” with their names and photos splashed all over newspapers because the accusation of rape has taken the place of substantive due process.
Ultimately, it’s experienced by men who feel there is a problem with the word “creep” only to have Dr. Schwyzer tell them that the problem is rooted in the desire of men to ignore the boundaries of women, as opposed to genuine hurt at being the subject of a negative stereotype.
Finally, as this has become quite long, I would like to share a quick anecdote.
One of my best friends, since high school, was repeatedly called a creep. I know this, because female friends of ours would for some reason feel comfortable telling me that they thought he was a creep, despite our obvious friendship. When I asked if he had ever touched them inappropriately, or even at all, the answer was always “no.” When pressed, they would admit he was unattractive, and yet willing to strike up earnest conversations with almost anyone. This is apparently all it takes to be a creep. It is also why he is one of my best friends: he struck up an earnest conversation with me, out of the blue, some 14 years ago, on our first day of high school.
Shame on him for striking up earnest conversations while being so unattractive. Shame on him for being a creep.
Well said.
In the hazy cloud of linguistics and context, any of the words: slut, bitch, creep, asshole–could be equivalent, or may have completely different meaning depending on who’s slinging them and the context in which they’re being thrown.
Slut and creepy may both share an expression of valuelessness. Creep is used as a term of disqualification of sexual interest, which is similar to the way slut is used. So I can see why some would claim some equivalence. Personally, this makes more sense.
Whereas asshole and Bitch are used in contempt of those whose self-estimation and attending behavior is in excess of perceived value by those issuing the insult. This one tends to be “owned” more, because it tends to be empowering for people to have high-self estimation and thus freed one’s self from the ego-driven necessity of seeking the validation and approval of others. This may or may not be a completely healthy and adaptive mechanism, depending on what other behavior patterns are present, but it it can be a step in the right direction.
Men who are labeled creepy would do well to study their behavior to understand the dynamics of why it’s triggering such a response. Often, it’s a lack of recognition of social cues. This can be overcome through diligent self-study. It’s helpful in so many ways to understand the context in which *anything* is being communicated.. Context is king.
Joanna, people use the word creep along with the pedophile remark and other words to shame men, insult them and imply deviant behaviour. What you may or may not realize is that these words are thrown around on purpose as insults simply because the guy is too ugly, too fat, too old. The guy who hits on a woman can be a creep simply because she doesn’t find him attractive, he may have been polite but her boundary includes NEVER being hit on by ugly men. Whilst there will be times it’s done “legitimately” because of crossing boundaries of comfort, there are times where it’s done for no damn good reason except he isn’t her Brad Pitt.
The creep insult also brings up the point that maybe some women are hypersensitive to creepy behaviour, see it TOO much in innocent behaviour. Men do this with the bitch behaviour, they feel a woman is a bitch because something triggered them yet the woman wasn’t actually acting like a bitch. Men do this to women based on looks even, and women do that to men as well. Seen it plenty of times, my own MOTHER has said a guy looks creepy based on a few seconds of seeing him. The guy was minding his own business, was balding and older, probably a bit shy if anything. How is that creepy? Why shame the poor fella and judge him harhsly.
And that’s the crux of it all, it’s judgment, made legitimate because sometimes men overstep boundaries and make women feel uncomfortable. Well I’d like to see the feminists react to a man assuming a woman is a bitch based on simply looking at her, is that right? Is it right women assume a man is a creep based on his looks too?
Creep becomes even more damaging when under 18′s are involved, the man at the park minding his own business can be called a creep simply for being a man but now he’s got the pedophile hysteria bullshit added on.
Quite often I’ve seen women describe men as creepy whereas I saw those men as SHY, they lingered longer but looked like they were hesitant on what to say, freezing up even. I think both genders need a hell of a lot more education on reading body language. I myself got the creep label in highschool by SOME of the girls, I was shy as hell and scared shitless of them, I could barely speak to them from anxiety. Apparently that means I was a creep to them even though I would have helped protect them from harm (as I do for anyone really). Luckily I’m far more confident with talking to people but the shame from those experiences in highschool really bothered me and made ME feel like a monster, all for what? Being too shy and not knowing what to say to gorgeous women? Standing back and giving them space?
The word creep is practically calling him – Creepy, ugly, repugnant, dangerous, untrustworthy, a monster, etc. I think most women really have no clue just how damaging it can be, it can be used as a part of bullying and have quite significant consequences on a person.
Now imagine ladies being shy, unsure what to say to someone and then a word thrown at you that people call pedophiles, murderers, all manner of monsters. Is it really that fucking scary that someone is shy? Can you not see the guy is nervous and even scared of you? Be careful of what you say to people, it can really stick with them.
Quite frankly I don’t think there are equivelents for creep or slut, they’re different. Even bitch has an equivelent, jerk, asshole, prick, etc. But slut and creep are unique I think, you can compare the damage they do in some way but they do it differently.
PLEASE try to use a word like uncomfortable unless the guy is really up in your face, it’s far less damaging. If he is shy and that creeps you out, try get around the shyness, get him to talk and you’ll probably find he isn’t as creepy or scary as he looks. It’s quite common that these shy men are inside their mind thinking “OK, what do I say, if I say this she might reject me badly. Ok what about this, hmm does it sound creepy? god I hope not, ok what about this” He might be playing scenarios out in his mind of what will be successful in NOT getting him rejected outright, I know I personally feared I’d come across as creepy after some tough bullying in highschool where I just never really plucked the courage up much to talk to women. So it might look like this shy guy is looking over a few times at you, maybe feels like he is staring but he’s probably unaware of it whilst thinking of what to say.
It’s important for women to understand there are men out there who feel more comfortable and relaxed around animals that are extremely dangerous, I myself find it easier to be close to poisonous snakes, crocodiles, etc then to talk to an unknown woman. I’ve felt the awkwardness when talking to someone who is shy, it definitely feels different to talking to someone who is much more at ease and can carry a convo. I’ve known quite a lot of shy guys and yeah their behaviour looks a bit odd but I understand their behaviour so I know it’s pretty much harmless, I’d hope everyone can learn that behaviour so they can more accurately judge body language and the situation. I think that would stop a lot of awkwardness, creepy feelings, etc, because who’d feel creeped out knowing some guy is just shy as hell vs something more sinister?
I deeply respect the empathy and thoughtfulness of this piece, but there’s also this:
The only way I can interpret that last part is that if a woman thinks a guy is a creep, she can’t possibly be mistaken, and he would be wrong (i.e. overstepping a boundary) to not accept the label. It’s not just saying that trying to talk her out of it makes it worse, which is probably true, but that even attempting to do so is a poor reflection on the man, whether or not he deserved the designation of creep.
I also take issue with the assertion that, “[A] creep gets the name by doing something to somebody.” Sometimes, yes, as in examples of approaching women at night in dark parking lots or engaging in unwanted touch or interaction that hasn’t been invited. However, those aren’t the most insidious circumstances in which to be branded a creep, because there’s room for men to employ some empathy and either avoid such behaviors or back off as soon as they realize a woman is being creeped out by it. The really insidious use of the creep label is on guys who literally do nothing to deserve it, like Collin above who was branded a creep for his smile. His fucking smile, for God’s sake. Not everyone would internalize that, but he did, because some bitch – yes, bitch – felt it appropriate to tell him that the facial expression most people use to express happiness and put others at ease creeped her out. Would it be overstepping a boundary of respect to argue that Collin’s smile, no matter what it looks like, is not enough to qualify him as a creep? How much less of a creep do you suppose other women have found him if he diligently avoids smiling around them? (Sorry to use you as an example, Collin, but you shared a poignant and powerful example of how “creep” can hurt and stigmatize someone even without ever engaging in the kinds of behaviors that most people – men and women – agree are creepy.) Shyness and social awkwardness are also magnets for the creep label or treatment, even without doing anything “to somebody”. The defining but unspoken criteria for being a creep is sometimes just whether or not a woman finds a guy attractive, since something like asking a woman out or even just looking from afar is welcomed if the interest is mutual but “creepy” if it’s not.
With words like “slut” or “bitch”, or even “asshole”, I don’t deny their power to hurt and shame, but they’re rightly acknowledged as slurs, as ways of calling someone a name. “Creep”, on the other hand is a slur that’s camouflaged as a feeling, and we’re taught that feelings are never wrong. If you hurt someone’s feelings, for example, you may not have meant to, but you can’t deny that their feelings were hurt. Since being a creep is about how you make people feel (women specifically, since it’s usually a gendered word), it doesn’t matter how un-creepy you think you are, the feeler is always right. It lacks the vulgarity of the slurs it’s being compared to, but when directed at a sensitive, introspective man, the impact is no less obscene.
“The defining but unspoken criteria for being a creep is sometimes just whether or not a woman finds a guy attractive, since something like asking a woman out or even just looking from afar is welcomed if the interest is mutual but “creepy” if it’s not.”
Right on, Marucs.
Not a problem at all! It is a good example of the word being used maliciously and unfairly. And the funny part is that I’ve actually had women subsequently mention how amazing my smile is. I was hanging out with a friend once eating dinner and we were joking around and apparently a woman found my smile so attractive she dropped a note on my table when she left. Even with that though, there is always the fear in the back of my mind that I will come off as creepy and make a woman uncomfortable. I just want everyone, men, women, children, and animals to find me interesting, kind, and enjoyable to be around.
And this also plays into the whole creep thing. I love kids. I generally lie and say that I dislike kids because it is more acceptable for a man to dislike kids than it is for a man to love kids. Children are so real. A happy child is so emotive and unashamed of their joy and have not learned the lesson that you are supposed to temper your joy. I also love their curiosity for the world. And yet, I always avoid interacting with children because grown men are only allowed to like children they are related to by blood.
At least I’m allowed to love animals and most people don’t object to me saying hello to their dogs!
Collin, I totally understand how the “creepy smile” remark would bother you, I once expressed my interest to a guy that I knew, who I had a big crush on. He said, “I only date really attractive women.” Ouch! That killed my self esteem for awhile. It was 20 years ago and I still remember it. But you have to let those kind of hurtful comments go because after all, it’s only one person who may have just blurted out something stupid for whatever reason, who knows why? There are billions of other people on the planet who would think that you have a nice smile.
Fortunately, he revealed his idiocy before you started dating instead of after. Luckily he came with a loud early warning system.
Yes, spot on. The label “creep” has a lot to do with subjectivity, even some imagination sometimes, not always about actual behavior. One should always note gut feelings, but that does NOT mean those feelings are accurate. It just means something inside you is trying to tell you something. Letting that rule you or not is to some degree a choice. And, sometimes it’s hard to tell the difference between an “instinct” and a cultural prejudice.
Maybe it’s a valid concern, maybe it isn’t. But here are my experiences of interactions with men that have given me goosebumps. 1) Guys on dating sites who immediately give me their phone numbers/tell me that I’m pretty and that they will do anything to “get” me. 2) Random guys who offer to give me rides in their cars while I’m out walking. The second ones are especially scary to me, though I don’t know if I’m just being paranoid. Maybe they sincerely are trying to be helpful and maybe the guys on the dating sites are just socially awkward. My school counselors seems to agree with my suspicion that I have asperger’s, so maybe I’m just misinterpreting these guys. At the same time, I know I tend to be kind of naive and I think my fear of being taken advantage of might not be completely unwarranted. :/
You are right not to accept rides with strangers, that’s not a good idea for either men or women. If you take a self defense class, one of the first things they teach you is to avoid risky situations where you do not have an exit strategy. Getting in a car with a stranger is a classic example.
I agree that people can define there own feminism. I think that feminism is something feminist incorporate into our every day lives and will do what works best for them. It would be nice if people were less snarky durring a disagreement! I try no to be.
One of the deinitions of creep I found online is to go timidly or cautiously so as to escape notice. When I think of a guy as creepy, its usually because he has manipulated me in some way, to catch my attention or to get me to stay out with him longer to insure his chances of sleeping wih me. Once I had to tell a guy I was going to walk home in the rain, and then he suddenly found the car keys that had been missing! Perhaps the use of these types of manipulatiions can cause women to attach the word creep to a rapist, because rapist use similar tactics to get a woman into a more vulnerable position.
I do agree that words can be hurtfull, but I think men are even more insulted if they are labeled something that’s considered effiminate, such as bitch, or fruit, the latter being degrading towards both women and homosexuals.
“I do agree that words can be hurtfull, but I think men are even more insulted if they are labeled something that’s considered effiminate, such as bitch, or fruit, the latter being degrading towards both women and homosexuals.”
I can’t agree with that take – I have seen far too many occasions when guys have been called Fruit/Queer/Homo … and just laughed it off. On one occasion I recall one guy being abused in that manner – he called his girlfriend and using the speaker phone She happily stated that the man was not gay – and if he was she had a very cute brother who was … and who would happily #### his brains out!
On the other hand – an accusation of creepiness, with all the implications of sexual predation that accompany it, is no where as easily addressed with the false accuser/abuser shown up for what they are!
Calling someone a Fruit has antisocial implications, yet you yourself linked the term “Creep” to rape which has far more implications including implied accusations of criminality!
If you were male – which would you prefer? Antisocial attitudes or unfounded implications that you are a dangerous criminal!
Slut implies loose morals – creep implies criminality! There is no equivalence!