Naked Maid Service: “We Do Windows…with Soapy Tits”

Jamie Reidy applauds the naughty entrepreneur who is making cleaning up dirty.

This gives a whole new meaning to the phrase, “Does the carpet match the drapes?”

NPR shared an Associated Press report that police in a staunchly conservative West Texas city are keeping close tabs on a young entrepreneur’s recently opened cleaning service that offers nude maids.

Lubbock police Sgt. Jonathan Stewart said the owner of Fantasy Maid Service of Lubbock doesn’t have a permit to operate a sexually oriented business and officers are watching for any violation, which would bring a $2,000 fine.

Yeah, I’ll bet those cops are watching!  Probably dropping quarters on the living room floor, too.

But owner Melissa Borrett insists she’s not operating such a business. Customers pay $100 an hour for one maid or $150 an hour for two maids, and no touching is allowed, she said.

Vitally important question: “no touching” refers to customers only, right?  I mean, if I hire two maids they can touch each other.

“I run a maid service,” the 26-year-old entrepreneur said. “We really just clean houses. These girls are not performers. They’re maids.”

Suddenly, the French Maid fantasy is so 2011.

I’ve worked up some ideas for Ms. Borrett’s slogan:

“Where Floor Wax Meets Bikini Wax”

“We Scrub; You Chub”

“What’s Wrong with A Little Clean Fun?”

“We Mop with No Top”

This will be an automatic exception to the “No Women in The Man Cave” rule. Dudes will be spring cleaning monthly.

I always thought it crazy when women tidy up their homes because “the maid is coming today!” Isn’t that the point of having a maid, that she cleans up your mess so you don’t have to? But now I clearly see how that logic will cause guys to make a tough decision: leave a mess so she spends more time naked in his house, or clean up first so this naked woman doesn’t think he’s a total slob? The answer depends on self-confidence: is he a Closer or not?

Regardless of whether a male customer thinks he actually has a chance to close the deal with a naked maid, he definitely needs to upgrade his towels and sheets; don’t want her thinking he’s a cheapskate.

High comedy will ensue the first time a wife comes home to find her husband sitting on the couch with his feet up as the Naked Maid vacuums between the coffee table and the couch. “Honey, I thought I was just ordering a maid maid, I swear!”

I call dibs on the rights to the L.A. Franchise.

Any other slogans for Fantasy Maid Service?

Photo by: Jacrews7

 

 

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About Jamie Reidy

Jamie Reidy is a former U.S. Army officer turned little blue pill pusher turned author. His first book "Hard Sell: The Evolution of A Viagra Salesman"
served as the basis for the movie "Love and Other Drugs" starring Jake Gyllenhaal. Jamie is currently writing his new book, "Game On: One Fanatic's Fantastic, Foolish and Futile Attempt to Attend 365 Sporting Events in 365 Days." He discovered his latest story featured on Good Men Project - "Hope Shoots and Scores" - on Day 39 of his crazy journey.

Comments

  1. Back when I lived in Phoenix a million years ago there was a place to get your haircut by women in lingerie. Being 18 years old and a drunk, this sounded like a fantastic idea. Alas, ‘milf’s with scissors’ was a lot more like an OK haircut and a lot less like a fantasy afternoon when I was done shelling out thrice what I would have paid Mario, my regular guy.

  2. QuantumInc says:

    These sorts of jokes always make me feel conflicted. On one hand they do seem funny at first. On the second hand they imply that men are perverted bastards only interested in titties, hardly an appropriate theme for The Good Men Project. On the third hand I can’t really see the harm in it, certainly no worse that stripper bars and jokes about strippers.

    If I was Sgt. Stewart, I would go ahead and fine the maids, just to set up the court case where a qualified judge can more clearly draw the line on the matter.

  3. Copyleft says:

    When in doubt, arrest–and then define the laws later? Gotta say that approach to justice doesn’t appeal to me.

    Go, nude maids! The more of this type of service, the better.

  4. Qauntuminc, I feel much the same way. Not sure to laugh, shake my head or whatever. Is this really ingeneous? Not really. Selling the idea of sex to men with naked or barely naked women is nothing new. I will have to wait and see just how hard men want to fight certain negative stereotypes about themselves. A lot of guys take issue as only being projected a certain sexual way in the media. However, when these kind of services and products come out that specifically play on the most stereotyped elements of male sexuality, it’s up to men to deny them. If men truly care about changing their public images when it comes to sex, then it’s up to men buck the trend on services that overtly play to their most base desires.

    Not to mention that I am kind of sick of women throwing their own gender under the bus as well. And I think it’s really silly for the owner of the business to say that she “just” runs a maid service. Her women might not be having sex with men that buy the service but that doesn’t mean it’s a simple “maid service”. Shame on her. She should “own” her own business if she is going to use cheap tricks to sell it.

    • Erin, you said “…when these kind of services and products come out that specifically play on the most stereotyped elements of male sexuality, it’s up to men to deny them.”

      Besides the obvious truth that NAMALT and the slightly less obvious truth that a little part of every man is *exactly* like that (to one extent or another…) would you really have us actually lie about our natures?

      Shouldn’t women, as a class, accept men, as a class, the way they are? Individuals are still free to define what’s acceptable for themselves. Of course, they have to live with the consequences afterwards.

      • Exactly, Joe. Rather than defy these stereotypes, I say we take a page from the gay community and embrace them. “Damn right we love hot naked babes! And you know what? We’re not gonna be ashamed of it, OR apologize for it.”

        What men need to do is stand up to the shaming tactics and declare proud ownership of the traits that are under attack. We need to turn the tables and transform the attacks into points of male pride instead.

        • Well…the lgbt community both embraces and defies stereotypes, really. Historically, I’d say that first we rejected the stereotypes in an attempt to fit into straight society…then we embraced them a bit more readily…and now we’re at a point where we’re saying that hey, we’re not only the stereotypes. It’s a bit of a – don’t put me in a box because I’m gay/trans/whatever, but also don’t hate me if I happen to fit into that box.

          So yeah for guys and sexuality I supposed it’d a bit like – don’t assume men are horndogs just because they’re men, but at the same time don’t hate guys who happen to be horndogs.

          • “So yeah for guys and sexuality I supposed it’d a bit like – don’t assume men are horndogs just because they’re men, but at the same time don’t hate guys who happen to be horndogs.”
            Yep this exactly.

        • Copyleft:
          Exactly, Joe. Rather than defy these stereotypes, I say we take a page from the gay community and embrace them. “Damn right we love hot naked babes! And you know what? We’re not gonna be ashamed of it, OR apologize for it.”
          Interesting. I think I’ll be right beside you saying, “Yeah I’m not all about the nookie like he is! And you know what? I’m not going to be shamed because you have a problem with his lust and I damn sure won’t apologize for his lust.” or “If you have have a problem with his lust then you can take it up with him. Don’t bother trying to shame me over it just because we’re both guys.” or “If women should be free to have as much sex as they do or don’t want without being shamed for one another, shouldn’t men have that same freedom too?”

      • Which is it Joe, are all men “like that” or not? This is the exact issue I find so baffling. On one hand men say they don’t want to be seen a certain way, then when there are products that cater to men’s most base desires, it’s “party time”. And they will engage in behavior that is the exact opposite of how they say they want to be seen, holding the expectation, that they should still be seen a certain way even if their actions aren’t conveying that.

        Further, this has nothing to do with anyone asking men to lie about their “nature”. I would never wish, never suggested, and never asked for anything close to that in my comments. This is about men taking responsibility for their “nature” and not using it as a justification to behave anyway they please just because men get horny.

        My main point was that that men have a real grievance with how the media portrays and plays off their sexuality. However, the only way that will change is if men are smarter about their sexuality in ways that surpass the emotions they feel when they are aroused by woman. Just because a man feels horny doesn’t mean he gets to do anything he pleases. Why some of you may ask? Because in heterosexual situations, women are the other part of the equation. Just because I feel emotional doesn’t mean I get to treat men a certain way and exploit them based on what I feel then demand men still respect me for it and tell them if they don’t, they are shaming me. Why? Because a man is not a vacuum there to absorb whatever state of feeling I’m in at a current moment. And I find when I control my emotions that can sometimes be really really strong, the men in my life respect and respond to me so much better then when I just let my emotions run free.

        There is a big difference between being kind to each other and trying to understand each other and not always agreeing with what the other gender does and sharing that while being receptive to hearing the other gender out vs automatically writing off their concerns as just “tools” to shame men . Men and women should respect each other but not use their own whims and fancies as justification to exploit the other gender for their desires. There is a difference between knowing men and women can be different but also growing to help have better relationships with one another. And that doesn’t require either of us to “lie” about our natures or to use our natures to exploit each other.

        On the topic of shame by the way, when you get into the catagory of media and products directed to men regarding their sexuality, and you come across products like Naked Maids, Hooters and the likes of that, men are sending a big message to women about what they like most about women and where they consider women’s valuable assets are. And one could argue that men inadvertently are shaming women by supporting industries that only support narrow ideas of sexuality in women such as women having to be young and beautiful with ample breasts and butts to be good enough for your male gaze and attractoin. Just something to chew on.

        • “Which is it Joe, are all men “like that” or not? This is the exact issue I find so baffling. On one hand men say they don’t want to be seen a certain way, then when there are products that cater to men’s most base desires, it’s “party time”. And they will engage in behavior that is the exact opposite of how they say they want to be seen, holding the expectation, that they should still be seen a certain way even if their actions aren’t conveying that. ”

          The thing you’re failing to understand is SOME men like this stuff, SOME men don’t. Erin, it really isn’t a hard concept to grasp, you’re generalizing men based on the actions of a few. This is what pisses men off, being seen ONLY as sex hungry beasts! I have no issues with society showing some men as horny and enjoying strippers n the like but I don’t like when people continually assume that is all men want.

          Would it be fair to start calling women gold diggers because of a few women who only want rich men? Would it be fair to assume women are prostitutes because some of them are sex workers? What you see is some men liking this service, I’m sure there are those who don’t care about it and others who absolutely hate it. Personally, I don’t care about the service, hopefully these women make some great cash. There was a tv show last night showing adult entertainment workers, topless barmaids, working at the bars in remote mining communities in Australia. The barmaid said she made $24,000 in 4 days just in tips (yes, twenty-four thousand $AUD for 4 shifts worth of work). Quite frankly I want to high 5 her, that is an awesome achievement, but I don’t assume all women are like this, nor all women supporting this.

          Obviously there is a market for adult entertainment and if someone wants to work there, great, all the best to them. If someone wants to use those services, great, all the best to them. But don’t assume we’re all the same. But to assume it’s automatically exploiting is a bit wrong in my books, where is the exploitation?

          “And one could argue that men inadvertently are shaming women by supporting industries that only support narrow ideas of sexuality in women such as women having to be young and beautiful with ample breasts and butts to be good enough for your male gaze and attractoin. Just something to chew on.”
          And one can argue that eating McDonalds is supporting an industry which uses cheap teenage labour, sports industry that only supports narrow ideas of fitness and athletic ability, I’m sure you could find negatives in all industries. How about jewellery companies promoting the idea of men spending large sums of money on women, chippendales/manpower dances promoting a very narrow view of attractive male bodies for the female gaze, etc.

          There are a lot of industries that promote narrow views and have certain tastes, popularities but they don’t represent all humans as a whole. What about men who like small breasts? Older women? There are plenty of them out there. You speak of men as a group supporting these industries but the fact is not all men use them, so why is that generalization acceptable? There are women who knowingly decieve a partner into raising a child that isn’t his, using your logic “Women support cuckolding and/or deceiving men into being non-biological parents”.

          No 2 men are perfectly alike, no 2 women are perfectly alike, we all differ in our tastes n desires. You can get trends based on popular views but they still don’t represent a gender perfectly, the only real common trend is on average both genders tend to be attracted to the opposite gender but even then you can’t say Men/women are heterosexual. So I ask you to try say “Why do some men support x?” instead of “why do men support x?”, it’s a simple word but changes the meaning between those 2 questions massively.

          And to answer your question, it’s because some men are fine with the sex-obsessed stereotype and some aren’t, just like some women are fine with being known as gold diggers or any random trait, and others don’t. Realize that when you see some men supporting a position, there will be other men who don’t support it. Even pornography has some men totally for it, and some men totally against it.

          • Actually Archy, I am generalizing based on the actions of what I perceive to be many. I understand how much people like their qualifiers when discussing a subject but I didn’t qualify because I think my comments apply to the majority, not the miniority. I often find that people sometimes argue about the lack of qualifiers in a comment to avoid talking about the actual issue and focus too heavily on the ever popular, “not everyone is like that.” Of course, we ALL logically already know that “not everyone is like that”. But the fact that “not everyone is like that”, doesn’t change whatever specific issue is being addressed.

            You criticized me for something that was actually said by another male poster. Joe said, “Besides the obvious truth that NAMALT and the slightly less obvious truth that a little part of every man is *exactly* like that (to one extent or another…”. Joe specifically said, “part of every man is *exactly* like that..” Joe began qualifying his comment that “NAMALT” but then he said that all men are like that. So which is it. And why aren’t you criticizing Joe for generalizing and wrapping men up to be all the same? You’re offended by me being confused by a message from a man telling me that every man, in some part, is exactly like that after qualifying that not all men are like that. And this is a common thing I come across when discussing men. This double messages that are so hard to understand.

            Despite the fact that some men will be into it and some won’t, It’s been my experience in that when it comes to sexuality, a lot men talk out of both sides of their mouths. That most men want a loving relationship AND some kinds of salacious sex with a variety of women. Whether that’s acted out through strippers, maids or porn. It’s not a simple matter of, “oh some are like that and some aren’t”. A lot of men seem to want to be seen one way but they also want to engage in the stuff that’s the opposite of how they claim they want to seen. That’s my issue. So when men find themselves being marketed yet another product that plays off their base sexual desires, then it’s up to guys to change the stereotype with their actions. Not just with words of “not all men are like that.”

            As for your comments about McDonalds and the use of cheap teenage labor, this has absolutely not one thing to do with this conversation of sexuality and how men and women can make each other feel shamed for it. This is another commonly used argument that is used to distract from what the subject matter directly is by pointing to the other side of the room and basically saying, “So what if x,yz happens. Look over there that way. It happens there too. So it’s okay if that happens. Not all people are like that!” Yet these kind of responses do very little in the way of making the conversation better or more in depth. They actually distract and take away from the conversation. Yes, I am sure you can find a negative in all industries. You are simply stating a generalized truth. (I guess what you perceive to be generalized truths are okay to talk about but when I go to talk about what I think are general truths, all the sudden, it comes to how “not everyone is like that”, isn’t okay). However that does not make the negatives in the industry we are talking about less worthy of talking about specific to the subject at hand. Men, women and sexuality. Not food franchisees.

            When you mentioned that there are men that like smaller breasts or older women, that is infact true! I never said otherwise. However, you are attempting to use a minority qualifier to defend what happens a majority of the time. The majority of the kind of things that are marketed and appeal to men set very limited stereotyped ideas about who women should be and what they should look like to be attractive to men. Yet when women acknowledge this and point it out, the argument all the sudden becomes about how men are being shamed for their sexuality. Yet a lot of men fail to see how these things actually often can shame women as well.

            Unfortunately, sometimes men’s sexuality expresses platitudes of desire that do a lot with minimizing women. Such as the sheer volume and variety men say that excites them about women. Quantity vs quality. When men acknowledge that variety is a turn on for them, they are basically saying that quantity of women is better then quality. And that women are thus interchangeable on some level. Or the over emphasis on certain looks and certainly age. What a lot of men fail to acknowledge is that the shallow things they can like women for does a lot to shame women as well. So we have a cycle. Men get annoyed and feel like their sexuality is not appreciated or that women are trying to shame them for it. But women feel the same exact things for different reasons.

            Yes, there are women that cuckold men. There are men that cheat on women. Again, this is not really the subject. The minority of women that awfully deceive their partners into raising another’s man child has nothing to do with the the common problems encountered by men and women in sexuality. Why are you using all this outside stuff to distract from the topic? I know of no woman that is fine with being called or known as a “gold-digger”. I also dislike the name calling that goes along with with calling women “gold-diggers” personally.

            • “And this is a common thing I come across when discussing men. This double messages that are so hard to understand.” I think this is a huge part of the issue. Many women have a hard time how they can feel “special” by being chosen by a man (and choosing that man) if the man is also (oftentimes) interested in other women (at least in visual form). The answer to the question “am I not enough for him” is, in part, “No, you are not, not really, but yes, you are enough for him too, at the same time.” But I’d also assume that’s true for women.

              I suppose if I had to lay it out, most humans want a stable relationship (and that means, over time, less passion) and they also want passion. We are creatures that crave novelty, play, and variety.

              We also are creatures that seem to get damn hung up on ownership, possession, and authority. Bad combo!

              Which means most humans engage in serial monogamy, poly-focused extrapartner sexual relationships, visual imagery, and fantasy. And avoid getting caught if we want monogamy AND variety at the same time.

              Women too. If we could perhaps find a way to relax the ownership and jealousy and explore together, and also just acknowledge that desire does wax and wane over years, we might have better long term relationships.

            • Craving noveltly and play and variety in a relationship can be a good thing. These are things I know I crave. But not all these things have to come in the form of x amount of different people to be exciting. They can come in so many other variations. But for men, it always seems to come down to quantity of women vs. quality. And they seem to unfairly want it both ways. And with technology driving the demand, the need grows even greater for even more variety as the anty is upped. As the “quality” women a man picked to be with, you’re suppose to think his insatible need for all things that aren’t you, even when just visual, is the best thing since sliced bread. There is little attempt to understand what a daunting position this is to be put in by a man. All there is is more demands on how much more women are suppose to accept about male sexuality. Because women don’t already put up with, deal with, accept, things like porn and strippers? Because that hasn’t been put up with since the dawn of time? But it’s never enough. He always needs, more, more more. How much more is a woman suppose to put up with? It always comes down to his sexual desires. Even though there is a very real and biological need that a lot of women have to have one quality man that bonds directly to her. And that when men seek out multitudes of women, he is indirectly sparking the biological drive that causes women to react feeling threatened. And when this happens, usually the advice men gives is for women to curb and control themselves while understanding all the reasons why men simply can’t. It is frustrating and overwhelming. I am so tired of men wanting everything their way and then acting liek they do women a favor just by being in a relationship with them. As if that’s enough alone.

              I also think if men want to encourage a woman “exploring” with him, then he shouldn’t use other women as means to get her there. So many men seem to want women to explore together when it comes to heavily dominated male centric material that is all about hot young babes with perfect bodies and his “visual” “needs”.

            • I understand your frustrations. It’s a very difficult thing to manage. But I will say, and I know you’ve already pointed out the NAMALT pov, but it’s true. At least to the point of “men wanting everything their way and then acting liek they do women a favor just by being in a relationship with them”

              There are a LOT of men who love being in relationships. Where it isn’t a favor to one, but a deep love. And I also don’t think that it’s wrong for men to find other women attractive. Or women men. Or women women.

              As to your final point, I didn’t suggest that as the only path did I? If they explore together, I think it should be…together. What does she find arousing? What does he? What back and forth or middle ground can be found? Some women DO like looking at women, so all the better then. Some men (with safety and trust) will admit to enjoying watching men too.

              It’s not gonna be all the same all the time.

              I realize that you probably know you are generalizing. And I’m guessing you’ve had personal experience with some things that have left you disappointed. Some of us though have had really good experiences with men over time (including some variety within the relationship).

            • Julie, I’m not saying the “not all men are like that” pov isn’t true. I’m saying that this is something we all logically already know. But if this is what it’s always going to come down to, then GMP might as well not even exist. Because if everything is going to be simply chalked up to “not everyone is like that” and “ to each their own”, this board wouldn’t be so popular. These are over simplifications to the deeper issues many want to discuss. Apparent by the popularity of GMP. That’s my issue with such phrases.

              And yes, I know I am generalizing. I said so in my very first sentence above. We all pretty much generalize. Stating that there are a lot of men that love being in relationships (very true) is every bit a generalization as me stating that men seem to want everything their way. It seems when generalizations hold negative connotations, the “not everyone is like that” is popular. When generalizations hold positive connotations, generalizations are okay.

              I don’t think there is anything wrong with finding other people attractive. Just like I don’t think it’s wrong for women to be emotional or for men to find women attractive. It’s what we do with it that matters.

              As for my personal relationships, I’ve had both good and bad ones. And I think variety is needed in a relationship. I just don’t think it has to come in the form of other people.

            • Erin, would you say more about this? ” But if this is what it’s always going to come down to, then GMP might as well not even exist.” Or email me? I’m really unsure as to what it means.

            • Just, on the topic of generalizations:

              In general (see what I did there?), I’ve noticed that negative generalizations tend to be spoken or written in very broad ways. Your own example, “men seem to want…” has no qualifier to the term “men.” It’s unclear whether you mean most men, some men, all men, etc. So when I read that I tend to assume you mean either most or all.

              Often I’ve found that when someone is responding to a generalization, they’re mostly just trying to point out the outliers, and so they’ll often end up speaking with more qualifying adjectives. So, for example, Julie says “a lot of men…” There is a qualifier there. She’s not making a generalization about all men, or even most men…she’s just pointing out that “a lot of men” don’t fit the generalization.

            • Julie – I was trying to explain that if a conversation is always going to come down to the idea of, “Everyone is different and everything is A-Okay and we should all just accept everything because some people like it this way and others like it that way”, then we really have nothing to discuss on any subject here. If we all really thought this way, then there wouldn’t be so many different ideas shared on the board. Not sure if that clears things up. Let me know.

              HeatherN, negative and positve generalizations on this board are spoken in broad ways. It’s only when it’s negative that people get freaked out. If I said, “Men are really great and really care about women.” No one would say a thing about qualifiers. Infact, alot of people would be like, “right on!”

              You are illustrating the exact point I was trying to make. People get overly hung up on the qualifiers that they ignore the topic. I think just about everyone here is intelligent enough to know that “not everyone is like that”. I think just about everyone here is intelligent enough to know that not everything applies to everyone. Focusing on the fact that someone doesn’t implement “some/many/a lot” infront of every idea that can be socially sensitive seems to distract from the conversation we could be having over this one. Generalities aren’t bad. Even when they are used to talk about things that are a little more sensitive. They wrap up a complicated equation to get to the base of the issue. Qualifiers aren’t bad. It’s great when people say things like “some” or “many”. However, getting overly hung up if they are not said and using that a point of contention to argue against instead of the actual topic isn’t the right way to go eitheri n my opinion. Now we have all been entirely overly distracted by qualifiers and not the actual topic. So a lot of the good dialogue that could have happened in regard to the topic has been derailed.

            • I’m not trying to attack you or anything, first off, but the problem is that without qualifiers we can’t know whether you mean most or some. And there is a huge difference between saying ‘most’ men are like such-and-such, and saying many men are like such-and-such. If someone is going to make the claim that most men behave in a certain way, they need to provide evidence to back it up, evidence that goes beyond personal experience. If someone makes the claim that many men, or some men behave in such a way, the burden of proof is less, because the possibility for outliers is greater. So if we get hung up on qualifiers, it’s because we want to better understand what you are saying, and we want to be able to better frame our replies.

              If positive generalizations don’t get criticised often, it’s in part because they’re pretty dang rare. We’re discussing very sensitive issues on a relatively anonymous forum…most of the time people aren’t making positive generalizations. Plus, when you say a positive, it’s a positive…a compliment, of a sort. When someone makes a negative generalization about a group (men, women, straight people, white people, whatever) it implies that there is something wrong with that group of people that needs to be fixed. To say “men don’t care about women,” is just another way of saying “men should care about women more.” It’s prescriptive and a criticism, and thus requires a certain amount of proof.

            • Erin, without those qualifiers you actually start to sound like a misandrist. That’s the problem, you are stating facts and it can easily be read as all men, or some men. There is no clarity in your argument, it’s the same kind of speech I see used by racists, bigots, etc and that is a problem. You assume they’re intelligent enough to realize what you’re saying based on what? Your comments can be read in a few ways, 1 is ok, the other is quite bad and that’s why I am pointing it out.

              Don’t you realize that stating facts without qualifiers especially with negative stereotypes can kill good debate as people might just think you’re a misandrist and not bother talking to you? Or they’ll spend time arguing, or trying to get you to adjust your speech slightly so it’s more understandable in your intent. Because currently you’re intent can be read in multiple ways, generalizations can be bad and the ones you have used are bad, it’s the reason why I feel you simply are hypercritical of male sexuality, shame male sexuality, see it as mostly negative and as all the same.

              This is a feeling I’ve gotten based on reading your comments that lack those qualifiers, you’re intentions could have been totally different but the feeling I get from you is a negative one towards men. Is that what you want to accomplish? If so continue how you are, otherwise I suggest clarifying your statements a bit more with qualifiers so there isn’t miscommunication going on because miscommunication is a huge derailer on here.

            • It’s interesting, your frustrations are common to men in regards to what women want in different areas of life. From what I gather based off popular stereotypes I hear men want quantity, women want perfection (not quality). By perfection I mean the partner that they CHANGE into what they want, an ideal bf that strips away his previous behaviour because it’s “immature”, “selfish”, and other words of shame used to deny his ability to be his own self.

              This all might be true for some but not for all, variety can be desired by both sexes, hell of the women I know that read romance novels they have collections of books into the 100′s, 1000′s and I highly doubt that’s all of the same man. Of other women I know they look at porn and like variety as well, others don’t seem to use porn and are happy with their partner although as I cannot read the minds of these women I have no idea what they actually fantasize about.

              Take a read of the article on vibrators where a man was questioning if he felt like HE was enough to satisfy her, and how many women commented on how it’s just adding extra pleasure. These men feeling like the women wanted more n more and also realize why so many men feel like their penis size isn’t enough to satisfy a woman, funnily enough a lot of men really want to please their women. I know I myself want my partner to get as much as I do from the experience, I’d be annoyed if I felt like I got more or she did.

              There are a lot of insecurities men have (not every man) in regards to sex, their bodies such as stamina, performance, her reaching climax and ability to please her, size of penis, the look of their body (especially for scrawny and overweight men). You may not hear about these though as men have been told to STFU about their issues in society, so if women are more free to discuss them then you can visibly see more evidence of women having more insecurity since the proof for the men is locked behind sealed lips. Insecurity is one aspect of life where men and women are far closer than most realize.

              I’ll ask the ladies, do you fantasize about the same man/woman? Can you assure me women in general don’t fantasize about more than one person in their relationships? Can you assure me they don’t check out other men, masturbate with other men on their mind?

              Common complaints I hear from SOME men on what women do that frustrates them is placing large expectations on spending time together to the point it’s actually smothering, they’re expected to fulfill the needs for human interaction near fully for some of these partners who may not have many friends or hobbies of their own. It’s frustrating, overwhelming, and when men open up about this they can be shamed with the “selfish” lines, told how they should be more respectful of their partners needs and WANT to spend time with them. Another common trait seems to be the “women are always right” stereotype here, men being expected to just shutdown and not have their own opinion because a woman is the final say and if you annoy her she can withhold intimacy to get HER WAY and this is totally fine (I don’t mean not being in the mood for sex because you’re angry either). It seems these women need more more more, and it’s always about her needs, her desires. I see men who work hard for their families that get pressures to earn more money whilst also spending more time with the family, more time with the wife to the point all they do is work much of the week, spend time with family and have very little of their own time. Even men without kids having little time for their hobbies.

              Now before the derailment accusations come flying in think about how both genders can feel pressured, feel their desires aren’t met, feel they aren’t enough for someone, feel they have to change to meet some expectation because all of what I have said and Erin has said are part of relationships. There are pressures against both genders that some feel and it’s frustrating and overwhelming, solving 1 though won’t help as they all need to be solved.

              The flipside of the females frustration is why is he looking at porn? is it just to masturbate when she isn’t around? Or is he trying to escape something else and feels it’s more freeing? Is she pressuring the hell out of him where he doesn’t want to be with her in any sense? The responsibility for these issues CAN BE on both people in relationships and I think it’s important for both genders to see if they’re doing something that might be pushing the other away.

              A man or woman looking for variety in porn or other fantasy material, well looking at the same image can be boring if you don’t have an attachment to that person, ever watched transformers or a movie over n over? Some humans do crave variety and something new but that doesn’t mean they desire new partners. There is a lot of power in the bonding of love, when I was in love straight away super models weren’t as beautiful as the woman I loved, my desire for variety dropped massively and I desired her always. I’m sure there are guys that can desire variety in porn, but still desire their woman massively. As for why they look at porn? It could simply be to be turned on by the ACT of sex, I’ve superimposed myself and my love into a porn scene and I was thinking of us together, not the actor n actress, I’d see the nudity and in my mind it was my loves body. But so often I feel many of those who are against porn tend to view it from a black n white position, they feel their partner is looking at the actress and wanting HER always when it could be the wife he’s thinking about. Fantasy is complex, human sexuality is very complex, how do we know what our partners think when looking at porn or reading a romance novel?

              This entire comment has generalizations for effect, they do not portray ALL men or ALL women as a group, I believe the genders are full of individuals and similarities exist but no 2 people are alike. We all live different experiences and are raised in different ways, all have variety in what we like, dislike, how we act, what we believe so I don’t feel we can really say men as a group or women as a group are like this.

              I don’t want to minimize your experiences and feelings Erin, I’m actually hoping you may understand from my position as well, I actually hope that you and other women may feel less insecure about porn and the perception of women in society when you hear from me and other men on what we look at, what we like, what we think about. I swear to god when I was love NO WOMAN ever could compare to her, it was the most amazing feeling I’ve ever experienced and any woman that was blonde and had a similar body shape to her would simply remind me of her and I’d see my love (which could be good or bad…). Please take the time to see how many men will DIE to save their loved ones, fight hard, how many men tell their partners they are beautiful and truly mean it.

              I’ve had experiences where I’ve told people of their beauty and they flat out deny it, what they believe and what I believe were 2 separate things and this is something we all have to understand. I use to be far far more insecure than I am at the moment, I fell into the trap of assuming women were a group and we could assume they thought in a similar way. I felt like all women would see me as fat, ugly, a loser, this n that but I realized a long the way that some women like x, some like y, some like (randomize alphabet). I’ve seen men and women of all weight ranges, races, dating people in all kinds of weight ranges, races, “attraction levels”, fat with thin, black with white, old with young. I know people in similar ages that like bigger people, smaller people, all skin tones, ugly, beautiful, a whole range of different mixups. The reason I say this is that we as a people need to start paying attention to REAL HUMANS and not what media portrays as beautiful, not what the movies n “reality tv shows” portray. Even with my own preferences they differ to the popular stereotypes of men, what my friends like I don’t always like.

              Maybe we need more men to open up and say what they like, what they desire. Maybe it’d help if women knew that what we look at in porn doesn’t meant we want it in reality, hell I could try a 3some once or twice but I do believe I’d prefer a loving relationship. It’s fun to fantasize about being James Bond but the reality of that is a life of danger, losing your loved ones, major risk n never feeling secure. Who wants that really?

            • Word. I’d just like to reply to a couple of things in this:

              “I’ll ask the ladies, do you fantasize about the same man/woman?”

              Short answer, nope…not even when I’ve been in relationships. And no, it didn’t mean I was any less into her…but really when masturbating or having sex, it’s a lot less fun if you’re worrying about where your brain’s going.

              “It could simply be to be turned on by the ACT of sex.”

              I’d like to touch on this, because I think it brings up a great point. Why do straight men watch straight porn? If you ask a straight guy, and he were completely honest, I bet he’d tell you he’d prefer watching a more-handsome guy in porn than a less-handsome guy. Does that mean he’s actually gay or bi? Of course not…it’s just about watching two people having sex. I know that when I’ve watched porn, it’s definitely not always about fantasising about being one of the people in the video I’m watching. Personally, sometimes it’s just about getting turned on by seeing two people who are really into each other. It’s part of why you actually get quite a few lesbians who are interested in gay male porn. They don’t want to have sex with the guys in the video, they just find it hot that two guys are turned on by each other.

              Which to bring that idea back around to the naked maid service thing. Let’s say I was in a committed and monogamous relationship and I employed a naked maid service. I would probably be turned on by the naked maids, but that wouldn’t necessarily mean I’d want to have sex with any of them. Sex and nudity in themselves can be big turn ons.

            • I like seeing the male actors with similar body shape to me, it actually helped my self esteem a bit knowing there was amateur porn with overweight men that weren’t limited to just overweight women, a variety of shapes n sizes between the 2 were engaged in sex and I’d assume also to be dating judging by the type of porn it was. It can give hope when you’ve been told you’d only be dating the 1-5′s and you were a 4 or something, it’s nice to know that the whole attraction number thing isn’t always the case.

              I also loved to see women who were very similar to people I liked, made it far easier to think of the person I liked.

              With the naked maid service I’d be worried about the cleaning products on their skin, if I understand the service correctly in regards to windows and soap :S. The french maid outfits are cuter though:P

            • Yeah, I think I was just trying to point out that someone watching porn isn’t necessarily fantasizing about having sex with the people on screen. So thanks for providing even more variety to it. :)

              And as for the chemicals…frankly I think it’d be a great way to promote greener cleaning products.

            • Either promote green cleaning products or score big time with clients with a latex fetish…

            • HeatherN, I don’t feel attacked by you. Anymore then you should by me. We disagree. I have explained myself on qualifiers. I don’t feel the need to re-address the previous points I made. Getting overly distracted by qualifiers and using that as a point of discussion instead of the actual discussion is my point. I think the core issue of the subject is easy to figure out with having to qualify every single thing in the process.

              Positive generalizations don’t get criticized because they are positive and no one has any issue lumping large groups of people together in generalities when it’s positive. Negative generalizations get criticized because people don’t want to hear anything negative about a group they feel particular too. So it’s not about the “generalizations”. It’s just the sensitivity to the negative that is what gets people going. However, in life, men and women both do good and bad things and being open to that helps all of us reach the core goal we all want. Better understanding for one another. Generalizations aren’t without absolute bad. They are used to sum up the larger picture without having to get overly involved in qualifiers that sometimes tend to muddy the waters.

              Archy, I think that no matter what I have said, you would have at some point found a way to suggest at me being a “misandrist”. There is nothing in my comments that is even remotely hateful toward men. Frustrated? Yes. Annoyed? Sometimes. But those don’t equate to “hateful”. The fact that I didn’t qualify every comment doesn’t all the sudden turn my comments into “hate speech”. If you want to rope me into a category of “racist, bigot” ….etc etc., you can. However, there is nothing in my speech or comments that even comes close to reflecting that. Not praising every element of male sexuality and talking about where I think there are issues in male sexuality does not make me a misandrist.

            • “Not praising every element of male sexuality and talking about where I think there are issues in male sexuality does not make me a misandrist.”
              Generalizing negatively and stating negative traits on men does make it misandrist though, so you can try to dance around the subject but lack of clarification will put you into that category. Your intention may not have been misandrist but how are we to know? We all need to be careful of how we use generalizations because they’re commonly used in very negative ways, some of which I’ve found you doing and I’m trying to make you aware of them as I don’t think you intended to sound that way.

              There is no problem with talking about the negatives of male sexuality, just remember to focus the statements better. As I said it’s possible I agree with you if you meant some men, but if you mean all men then it’s a misandrist statement. You don’t need to show pure hate to be misandrist or misogynist, I’ve seen plenty of subtle comments from both camps which pass muster. I don’t think you mean to sound that way but I just want you to know it can easily be seen as that way.

              What you wish to be seen as and what you ARE seen as can be 2 different stories, do you honestly think if I went around saying women are cheaters, women are negative trait, that I wouldn’t cop the misogyny label? You’re doing the same to the male gender so without qualifiers you can be seen as hateful, bitter, etc when you could simply be frustrated and only mean some men.

            • You know because you read what I say. Everything I say. Not just the bits and pieces you want to pick out to label me hateful because I didn’t say everything perfectly to the “t” the way *you* wanted me to say it. Or you ask me what I meant. You don’t go on a witch hunt and make casual links to me being a bigot and a misandrist and all the other names you came close to attaching to me because my response didn’t fit into *your* perfect idealized definition of a good conversation. There are comments above that make it more clear what I meant in regards to my post. That I infact never even thought or applied “all” to my meaning. Yet here you are, continuing to suggest of my “misandrist” view point.

              And just to let you know, but I actually clarified this earlier and you are still harping on me to clarify more. You had said: “The thing you’re failing to understand is SOME men like this stuff, SOME men don’t. Erin, it really isn’t a hard concept to grasp, you’re generalizing men based on the actions of a few”, and I had said in response, “Actually Archy, I am generalizing based on the actions of what I perceive to be many. I understand how much people like their qualifiers when discussing a subject but I didn’t qualify because I think my comments apply to the majority, not the miniority. I often find that people sometimes argue about the lack of qualifiers in a comment to avoid talking about the actual issue and focus too heavily on the ever popular, “not everyone is like that.” Of course, we ALL logically already know that “not everyone is like that”. But the fact that “not everyone is like that”, doesn’t change whatever specific issue is being addressed.” – It is clearly explained that I meant “many” and that I thought we would all be smart enough to know that “Not everyone is like that!”.
              So you tell me Archy, does the fact that I think my points apply to “many” men mean I’m a misandrist? Or am I only a misandrist if I had said “all”. If I had said “some” does that mean I like men more then when I said “many”?

            • Archy, I am going to touch on a few things you talked about. I hadn’t really gotten the time to do this for several days.

              You said: “I’m sure there are guys that can desire variety in porn, but still desire their woman massively.”

              I agree. I just don’t think this is the positive that you think it is. What this says to me is that men want it both ways. They want to fulfill their whims and fancies for other women AND have a loving woman to come home to. Who I am sure they do love. It is often explained under men’s ability to compartmentalize their sexuality. But often times, women don’t compartmentalize their sexuality from their mates exactly like men do. So what happens? What happens when one believes the compartmentalization harmful and the other believes it to be useful?

              From my perspective, just because a man can desire variety in porn or strippers, or what overtly sexual activity he is indulging in that appeases his variety, is it right that he does? Just because a man might be able to sleep with a stripper or get a lap dance from 5 of them and come home feeling love for his partner, does that make it right? If his partner is okay with it, then it’s all good. But clearly this is enough of a contentious issues between the genders that just because a man might be able to both love his partner AND enjoy lust filled activities with other women, doesn’t automatically justify it.

              Then you got to add in the level of variety men seem to need today that has out grown anything in past history. Porn is so easy to come by. It’s not like when a guy would get a magazine once a month. The need for variety grows even more. The expectation on what you are expected to accept in these terms of variety grows even wider. He wants the availability to indulge in variety whenever he feels like it and still come into the warm loving arms of the woman that loves him as well. And she wants him to understand how much she needs his commitment. His real commitment. Not just a surface commitment that is only exercised in the most extreme of cases. And sometimes I am left with the impression that the commitment is more of a curtsey to the woman while he wants to be free to indulge his sexuality else where at least sometimes.

              You said: “As for why they look at porn? It could simply be to be turned on by the ACT of sex, I’ve superimposed myself and my love into a porn scene and I was thinking of us together, not the actor n actress, I’d see the nudity and in my mind it was my loves body.”

              Yes, you very well could be turned on by the ACT of sex. But since most women in porn are at least moderately attractive, and more times then not younger (yes we know porn with older women is available but porn of younger women remains the most popular), I suspect the looks of whatever girl a man is looking at in porn has more to do with it more times then not. I think it’s about the sexual ACT and the looks of the woman. You also have to remember that men do a lot to tell women how much they like beautiful women, how visual they are, how much they need this or that. I suspect the more honest answer is that it’s a combination of thinking of his partner and enjoying the body of the woman he is looking at. That it’s a combination of enjoying the sex act AND the woman who is having the sex act done to her/ doing the sex act. I am sure it’s not some pure altruistic haze where he only sees his partner. Otherwise, there would be no point in watching a porn if a man wanted to focus primarily on his partner only.

              You said: “But so often I feel many of those who are against porn tend to view it from a black n white position, they feel their partner is looking at the actress and wanting HER always when it could be the wife he’s thinking about. Fantasy is complex, human sexuality is very complex, how do we know what our partners think when looking at porn or reading a romance novel?”

              I don’t think the issue is black and white at all. No woman wants to be the Grinch that takes away her partners “fun”. I hate feeling like that. But neither does she want to be one of his harem of women that he uses to get himself off. I often think those that are for porn want to make it seem like men are altruistically looking at porn out of deep love and lust for their partner. They will mention the item you have, that he could be thinking of his partner. That he is getting “new” ideas. They want to focus on these elements and not the elements that can be perceived as more threatening from a woman’s perspective. Such as the fact that most women in porn, most, will be young and beautiful. Such as the fact that it’s the pure variety of a million different babes clicks away that he enjoys. These give very important messages to women.

              I think the main reason men are looking at porn is for the fact that it brings him in visual contact with all kinds of women he would never have available to him in real life. These women are bigger then life to him and will more times then not, be younger and hotter. He wants to use porn AND his partner in combination to fulfill his sexuality. It’s not about the partner being better. It’s about the use of both these items, these tools, to service him better. And as you get older, as he gets older, it’s very likely that he will be looking at the same age group of girls he always had. I know this will be where you talk about all the different kinds of porn and how there is porn with older ladies. Sure there is! But it is not anywhere near the popularity that there is for younger women. And often in porn you see all kinds of men of all kinds of ages with young hot babes. Because the average guy wants to believe he can score with young beautiful women over a nice woman, with a less then perfect body, his own age.

              You said: “I don’t want to minimize your experiences and feelings Erin, I’m actually hoping you may understand from my position as well, I actually hope that you and other women may feel less insecure about porn and the perception of women in society when you hear from me and other men on what we look at, what we like, what we think about.”

              What other women? Many women? Some women? Alot of women? Where is your qualifier Archy? I’m going to be really honest with you and am being purposely particular here to point out that we all don’t always qualify.

              I do feel that you have minimized my feelings on the subject. You’ve done alot to defend porn and justify why a lot of men use porn. Without acknowledging why “many” women can feel the way they do about it.
              And I’m a bit conflicted on this comment of yours. This is another common thing I find among men. Their desire for women to feel less insecure about porn. But I don’t think it’s because men want to build up female self-esteem. If they did, there are smarter ways to go about that then encouraging a positive vote for porn. I think it has more to do with a lot of men liking porn, wanting porn, and wanting their partners to be okay with it too because of his own needs. Not necessarily her needs. How would you feel if I said, ” I hope that you and a lot of other men begin to see how damanging porn is toward women and men. How much it treats women degradingly and how it affects perceptions of sexuality when you here and me and other women think and feel about it.”

              You said : I swear to god when I was love NO WOMAN ever could compare to her, it was the most amazing feeling I’ve ever experienced and any woman that was blonde and had a similar body shape to her would simply remind me of her and I’d see my love (which could be good or bad…). Please take the time to see how many men will DIE to save their loved ones, fight hard, how many men tell their partners they are beautiful and truly mean it.

              I really don’t understand. Why would you need to use the visual of other women with her body shape to make you think of your love?

              I remember one time an ex of mine compared me to a girl he had watched in porn. He knew my issue with porn. I know he was not trying to be hurtful but he said that something this girl did reminded him of me. He thought it was a compliment. I didn’t. We both got upset about it. I know his intentions where good but it still hurt. I don’t want to be compared to women in porn. I certainly don’t want my boyfriend comparing me to women in porn and finding commonalities with generic girls in porn. Because if he was comparing me to girls in porn and finding things we had in common, then he was probably comparing me in other ways too. There are studies done on this where it shows that men hold more critical opinions of their own partners directly after having seen porn. That they were less satisfied with their own partners after having spent time reviewing pornographic material.
              This doesn’t even touch on how much of porn is just so gosh darn degrading where women are treated like tools to orgasm and are usually subservient.

              You said: “I felt like all women would see me as fat, ugly, a loser, this n that but I realized a long the way that some women like x, some like y, some like (randomize alphabet). I’ve seen men and women of all weight ranges, races, dating people in all kinds of weight ranges, races, “attraction levels”, fat with thin, black with white, old with young.”

              At one point I had been chubby and when I lost the weight, even though I wasn’t morbidly obese, alot more men paid attention to me and wanted to date me. When I had gone out with my friends, a lot more men would hit on my very pretty girlfriends much more then me.

              You said: “Maybe we need more men to open up and say what they like, what they desire. Maybe it’d help if women knew that what we look at in porn doesn’t meant we want it in reality, hell I could try a 3some once or twice but I do believe I’d prefer a loving relationship. It’s fun to fantasize about being James Bond but the reality of that is a life of danger, losing your loved ones, major risk n never feeling secure. Who wants that really?”

              Yes, men should be more open about what they like and desire. Otherwise women don’t know. This is certainly something I would like to hear more of. And more then the standard that men like big breasts and small waists.

              But I am not so certain it’s a case of what men look at in porn not being what they want. I think that it is , in some part, what men want. Otherwise it wouldn’t excite them. They might not want to be with a chick that slept with many men but they certainly what the ideal of sexuality she represents. I think men fantasize about certain things, because a part of them wants that. So when you set projections of women even through fantasy that are all about over the top ideals of whatever about them is being fetishized ( age, breast size, ethnicity), you can’t not expect it to send a message to women about what men want then insinuate women are insecure or don’t know what men want when women are taking in the exact messages men are sending them. That’s not fair.

            • Copyleft says:

              It sounds to me that women are saying it’s good for men to express what they want… but that they should want something else, something that makes women feel better about themselves.

              I would point out that women have been telling men what THEY want for quite some time now–and quite blatantly, in the form of explicit criticism of how men don’t measure up to their standards. Men have largely been told to accept these criticisms with good grace and humility, as “learning opportunities” for us to become better people (i.e., more acceptable to the opposite sex).

              Perhaps women should try walking a few miles in those shoes as well?

            • Misandrist/misogynist would be applying a negative label to the entire gender, now I probably didn’t make it clear enough but I don’t think you are misandrist but without clarity your words can appear to be misandrist. Does that make sense?

              If you feel the majority of men are doing something negative, then yeah say “I feel most men, many men, some men do x”. I don’t have issues with people expressing what they feel based on their experience, what I dislike is when people state it as fact of life vs fact of personal observation.

              On the porn topic: It could be all of these issues combined, it can be sometimes superimposing a partner, sometimes wanting to see hot beautiful women. There are days I dream of being with the porn star and days where I am only focusing on the body (makes it easier to superimpose + I think the vulva, hell the entire female body is extremely beautiful). I don’t have a partner though so I can’t answer why married or people in relationships use it, I do know that when I’ve been in loved or when I have a crush I superimpose a hell of a lot and seek out actresses (including amateur/user created content) that I think would be the most similar and closest in body type, look to the person I like.

              “What other women? Many women? Some women? Alot of women? Where is your qualifier Archy? I’m going to be really honest with you and am being purposely particular here to point out that we all don’t always qualify. ”
              Thank-you for pointing it out, I personally try to qualify as much as I can to avoid issues. I should have said some other women.

              The reason I “needed” to use the image of another was because I have a terrible imagination, and I didn’t have porn of her so for me it was much easier to use porn but see her and me, not the actor and actress. This won’t apply to all men of course but it’s a possibility, I know it works for me and it might work for some other men and women.

              My goal is to have porn turn into a neutral medium, I HATE the parts of mainly the professional porn industry which is most commonly used to describe the degrading content. The reason why I seek out amateur content is because the stuff I watch is pretty much equal pleasure where possible, both going down on each other, both having sex and at least attempts to help each other orgasm. No degrading talk, just sex in it’s raw form, and to me none of that appears degrading. It’s mostly just exhibitionist couples that share their stuff with others.

              It turns me off to see and hear the degrading talk, personally I think anyone calling a woman in a porn a slut shouldn’t be allowed the privilege of watching the material. The actors and actresses need to be respected and I’ve pulled up friends before who’ve disrespected anyone in the sex industries. People should be appreciative that others share their bodies and sexuality, I know I sure am. Another reason I love amateur porn is it’s usually free from excessive makeup, cosmetic surgery, “airbrushing” and promotes more of a raw human look.

              “Because if he was comparing me to girls in porn and finding things we had in common, then he was probably comparing me in other ways too. There are studies done on this where it shows that men hold more critical opinions of their own partners directly after having seen porn. That they were less satisfied with their own partners after having spent time reviewing pornographic material.”

              You’re letting your mind wander though into what HE is doing “he was probably comparing me in other ways too”. Do you feel he would compare you negatively? How do you know he’s not thinking “my woman is sexier, my woman does this better, I love how my woman does x”. If you look for negatives you will probably find it, it can really play havoc with your self-esteem especially when you start to “mind-read” (read up A.C.T and C.B.T to find out what I mean) so you’re negative thoughts can reinforce themselves and leave you feeling worse. The women in porn are still women and I’d say he views them as woman, in a positive light, thus the comparison was a compliment. I have to ask, why do you not want to be compared to these women?

              “At one point I had been chubby and when I lost the weight, even though I wasn’t morbidly obese, alot more men paid attention to me and wanted to date me. When I had gone out with my friends, a lot more men would hit on my very pretty girlfriends much more then me.”
              Sadly we live in a very fat-phobic society, if it makes you feel better I have NEVER EVER been hit on by women and I was obese and now I am just overweight. I am very aware of the popularity and attraction people have to those who aren’t above or below a certain range, but do realize variety exists and there are quite a lot of exceptions to the “norm”.

              Finally I have to ask, does porn have to be bad? Is it possible to have a loving relationship where both the man and woman can fantasize about other people via porn, romance novels, etc but still love each other? The fact that I look at other women doesn’t mean I love someone else less, me checking out others or masturbating to porn stars doesn’t mean my partner is less sexy in my eyes but maybe I personally just find it impossible to have attraction to no one else but my partner. Maybe I think not all people need to only ever think of their partner. I don’t know why we have these temptations for other people even when in love, monogymy probably isn’t locked in to the human instinct, but I do know when I was in love other people became a lot less attractive and I had a massive urge to be around the woman I loved, I was checking people out far less and quite frankly the only time I really noticed other women was basically see a blonde woman and bam I thought of my love straight away. That’s my experience, other people will probably differ.

              I don’t think porn is going to go away unless we end up in “1984″, but I do think we can all change porn into something better. But do realize it is a medium and in all mediums you can find horrible content, there are books that promote all kinds of evil and books that are great, there is porn that is degrading and porn that is totally fine. We as humans have the power to change the medium by producing content which is not degrading, adjusting our purchases so we don’t support degrading stuff, voicing our opinions by emailing the production companies or leaving comments on the amateur stuff. What I do see is more n more men and women I feel who are demanding the amateur stuff more, wanting less degrading and just focusing on good ol fashioned fun sex. The popularity of body types is driven by society as a whole I believe and fashions change, porn will adapt to the body types that are in fashion. Society needs to drop it’s fetish for young, thin people and then you’ll most likely see porn change.

            • “This seems to be a kernal of the conflict when I see women and men argue over porn. Many women see (qualifier here) men as justifying something that those men know causes women anxiety. Lots of generalizing in there but I think it sums up what Erin’s getting at. And because I feel I have to say it, no I do not believe all men or all women feel this way.”

              I know a few women who aren’t bothered by porn so it appears only some women are insecure from porn. I know of women who watch it as much as the guys, so these men are justifying something they may know only causes SOME women anxiety. What makes me wonder is why only some women feel insecurity towards porn? Why do others not see it as negative, why do some actively enjoy it?

              I think the problem is treating porn as a monolith, the men I see justifying seem to commonly enjoy amateur porn and also tell of the variety of porn available. Now this actually reminds me of the feminism debates, we have some women telling us the message they get from porn is negative and degrading, all kinds of horrible stuff and how insecure it makes them feel. We have some men and women telling us of the message they get from porn is negative, misandric, unequal, etc. What’s the common factor here? Both are legitimate concerns if you realize they’re both talking about a CERTAIN area of porn/feminism, but as all groups and mediums vary it’s problematic to judge both as monoliths.

              Considering the heavy defense I’ve seen of feminism recently, I am wondering why some of the defenders are treating porn as a monolith? It seems quite clear from a few comments here and many on other websites that porn is treated as a monolith “degrading to women”, does that mean books are degrading to x group because there are books out there that negative to x? Are movies as a whole degrading to men because they commonly suffer violence in them? Or are we talking about a certain part/area/industry of porn? I need to have this clarity to understand truly where the offense lies because it seems material I see and material others see can be very different.

              I also call in to question the validity of judging the entire medium based on certain parts of it. Porn CAN be degrading, but porn itself isn’t degrading, it’s an all-encompassing term, a blank canvas of sexual media, it can be solo acts, group acts, loving couples, bdsm dom/subs, fat, thin, all races, genders, wide variety of ages, all kinds of genres. How do you compare them all?

            • Archy, it doesn’t make sense. You don’t think I am a misandrist but you are suggesting I talk like one. But if you don’t think I am misandrist, then it’s clearly because a good chunk more of my comments reflect infact not being a misandrist then there are that reflect me being a misandrist. I am not perfect. My comments won’t be perfect. If you see enough to come to the conclusion that you don’t think I am misandrist, then give me a benefit of the doubt for the parts you don’t think come across well. And lets have a real discussion. Not a discussion hinged on perfectly qualify every little comment.

              By the way, I am going to guess that you read Copyleft’s comment above since he posted hours before you. Did you notice how Copyleft said, “it sounds to me that women are saying it’s good for men….” as well as, “I would point out that women have been telling men…” Does this make Copyleft suggestive of being both a misandrist AND misogynist since he used the loose terms of “men” and women” and didn’t qualify his statements? I certainly don’t think so. I do not think Copyleft is anywhere close to being a misandrist or a misogynist because he loosely used the terms “men” and “women”. And I don’t think you do either because you certainly have yet to lecture Copyleft about the ills of not using words like, “many/some/all/few.” By the way, in my very very first post in this article, I also used the word “woman” loosely. And you did not attack me for being a misogynist for it. I am an equal opportunity loosely applied commentator!

              I appreciate you explaining that you think it’s fair to think the majority of men do something without having to hate men and being a misandrist for thinking that.

              I agree that sometimes a man can be thinking about his partner and sometimes thinking about the hot women in porn. So it’s unfair to use just the one side of it as an attempt to make women that don’t agree with porn to feel better about it. The fact that men can easily switch and toggle between women, including his real life partner, is the exact issue that can be so bothersome. Please try to understand why. That’s all I’m really asking.

              I just don’t understand that if you are in a relationship with a woman that you love why you purposely seek out other women that look like her to use when you could just go to the source of the object of your affection. I really don’t get that. I also don’t particularly see it as a compliment that a man would seek out images of other women that are similar to his partner. I just think it’s more of the same..more variety in combination with the lust he feel for his partner..another harem of women to entertain himself with. We women..just one of the many to *most* men! If that sounds a bit bitter it is because it IS bitter.

              As for amateur porn, this is often used as a link to being “better” then the designed and produced porn. Just because something is said to be user created, doesn’t mean they are really amateurs. Doesn’t mean that *most* of the women don’t fit into the role and body type men fantasize about with maybe a few larks thrown in, inbetween.

              You said: “Thank-you for pointing it out, I personally try to qualify as much as I can to avoid issues. I should have said some other women.”

              I didn’t have an issue with what you said. I know you didn’t mean all women. If you had specifically said, “all” women, then I would know you meant all women. But using the term women or men loosely does not automatically mean anything more then simply, men and women. I don’t like to get overly hung up on how other people choose to express themselves unless they are purposely rude and bating. Which I have never thought you to be. I rather focus on the conversation than the imperfections along the way.

              You said: “You’re letting your mind wander though into what HE is doing “he was probably comparing me in other ways too”. Do you feel he would compare you negatively? How do you know he’s not thinking “my woman is sexier, my woman does this better, I love how my woman does x”……. The women in porn are still women and I’d say he views them as woman, in a positive light, thus the comparison was a compliment. I have to ask, why do you not want to be compared to these women?”

              I am not letting my mind wander. I am going on the information he is giving me. Info #1: He was looking at porn. Info #2: He made a comment to compare me to another woman in porn.

              To me, it doesn’t matter if the compliment is flattering or not. I don’t want compliments on the backs of what other women do or don’t have. He is still seeking out variety in women no matter what compliment he is giving me. And of course the women in porn are still women! Believe it or not, despite the fact that I don’t like porn and I don’t like the fact that so many men today relay so heavily on it for their sexuality, even when they have loving partners who want to make them happy, I still believe women in porn deserve to be treated with respect. My opinion on porn itself has nothing to do with people in it. Unless you count the people that act abusively and degrading to others or drive all the disgustingly abusive stuff that is so awfully rampet out there. I remember having a conversation with an older man that had said in the 70s, porn was much more light hearted and fun but that something happened and it’s much more hateful. I just want to know why so many men are watching stuff that is hateful. I want to know why so many men seem to both love women and want to use them for their bodies but hate the idea of having to actually treat them with respect and kindness and love.

              I also do not disagree that variety doesn’t exist and there are exceptions. However, in many male generate “fantasies”, there is less variety and exceptions then there are more. And women learn from what men look at what men count as important about women. So if a man dates and gets involved with a woman that doesn’t fit the ideal, but seeks out the ideal in media, she is learning something key. And I got to tell you! Something I don’ think a lot of men want to acknowledge or will only throw back about the standards men are expected to live up to in return, I try very hard to fight against the ideals of society that tell me what I need to be and what I need to look like to be worthy of having a sexuality or love life. I don’t need to be with a guy that buys into these messages too when my back is turned but tells me how great I am to my face. I think most women would benefit from a man that practiced what he preached all around. Not just when she’s around to see it. And I will mention something even more. I think if women had a huge industry equal to what porn is that was all about just using men for money, all kinds of men for money, then exchanging those men in for new models, I think men would begin to understand what it felt like to live in a society that considers you so easily replacable based on the drive of variety that often seems to consume men.

              I can’t really answer the question about “does porn have to be bad”? Some women and men have it in their relationship and it’s fine for them. That doesn’t take away the issues I see with it or the role I think it plays in shaping sexuality more then letting people shape their own sexuality. I’m just tired of men needing a harem of women (usually younger and prettier then themselves or their partners) to self gratify themselves with then turning around and saying how much they love their partner too. That doesn’t feel like love to me. It feels like women are just one of the many men need to use to make themselves feel good. Whether it’s a partner or porn, all women have their clean little place men can box them into depending on whatever *his* needs are at a given time. It is not a nice place to be.

              I also don’t think porn is going away. But I also don’t think people are exactly all that more happy and self satisfied because of porn being way more easily accessible then just a short 20-30 years ago. I even think that porn has become and will become even more accepted by society. Women and men included. We already live in a society where it’s rare where someone is able to develop their sexuality separate from porn. Heck, it’s like we can’t any longer even separate where porn ends and sex begins. Lately all the conversations around sex seem to be in reference to porn. I don’t think that’s a good thing. When did we become obsessed with watching other people do things instead of doing them ourselves..porn, youtube…etc etc. When did we stop defining our lives for ourselves independent of outside agencies?

              And yes, there are books that can be good and bad but I bet people are looking at a heck more bad porn then they are reading good or bad books. The reality is that with the majority of porn, it sends clear messages about male domination over women. And concepts about how women should look or act to be considered sexy enough to have male attention. Talking about what society needs to do and what society does do are different things. Young, thin, big breasts women will never be “dropped” from the majority of porn. Even in “amateur” clips. This is what men want. They don’t want women to be real people who age. They want women to be fantasies of perfection even through amateur shots. Because what I have found is that most men do not want to celebrate women for who they are as people so much as they want to celebrate and encourage women to be more like the fantasy he wants her to be.

              P.s. I am not treating porn like a monolith. My comments and ideas are based on what the majority of porn seems to support and represent despite the much smaller segments of all the other stuff that is fetishsized about women and often gets over used to make it seem like all things in porn are created equal when they aren’t. I also am not *just* insecure about porn. While I do have insecurities, my comments and thoughts on porn go beyond that and I am intelligent and self aware enough to argue those points seperate from my insecurities. Thirdly, a lot of what is shown in porn is also often just as much about male insecurity and taking away the real life things men feel insecure about even as it exploits and mocks women for the things women can be insecure about. Such as showing men of all body types with young beautiful women. Showing men always in control and having no ED issues and always orgasming while his partner makes huge big loud over the top moans. Plus much more.

            • Well you just did the job for me of illustrating it to copyleft (try to focus who you are talking about copyleft). The comments are also getting buried very deep in this tree. I originally just wanted you to realize the problem can arrise in the lack of the qualifier, because I myself was confused by your intent. I didn’t THINK you were misandrist but some of the stuff you said was raising my eyebrow, I wanted a little bit of clarity to understand it better and just wanted you to be aware of it in the future. I want EVERYONE to be aware of it because I see it start arguments quite often, a simple adjustment can make a statement far less volatile to read. It’s possible to say something misandrist without being misandrist, just as it’s possible to say racist stuff without believing it. The thing is online others may not understand what you mean, from reading your comments over time I didn’t feel you were misandrist but others who had just read it can possibly gather that without the qualifier. I know it’s annoying but I’m over arguing about it, I’ll try to point it out to others where I can but feel free to join in.

              I’m also bogged down and pressed for time hence the large time span between replies recently, I wakeup to my email telling me of 100+ comments to read which are quite in depth so I don’t get to them all.

              “I just don’t understand that if you are in a relationship with a woman that you love why you purposely seek out other women that look like her to use when you could just go to the source of the object of your affection.”

              At the time there was a distance barrier, and no nude imagery. The reason I said was because it’s quite possible others do the same for times when their partner is away, ill, unable to be there. I’d much rather goto the source but that wasn’t an option at the time. It probably sounds quite silly but I’m not really sure how to explain it, all I can says is when I did I only saw my love and not the actual actress if that makes sense.

              “Doesn’t mean that *most* of the women don’t fit into the role and body type men fantasize about with maybe a few larks thrown in, inbetween. ”
              No idea what other men fantasize about as a group, amongst what I hear from friends it varies. I have some friends that love tiny/petite women, others love thicker women. Some prefer their own race, some like other races more. The only real common fantasy I THINK men have is WILLINGNESS in a woman to have sex, showing interest, maybe even some confidence in themselves and their body. To me, I like seeing nudity and sex as currently I don’t get any. Amateur porn to me is the most realistic I’ve seen, I don’t mean industry made “amateur” but I mean the real couples who make porn.

              Hell if I was more confident with my own body I’d maybe make some if my partner wanted to. The only thing I’d worry about is reptuation damage, I’d rather live in a world where no one cared if someone made porn though because I don’t. I know of local people who have sadly had their material spread and I thought to myself “Who cares, good on them for having fun” whilst also hating whoever spread it. I’d much rather see people making love, having sex being normalized than the violence that is normalized at the moment. I can watch someone being tortured, screams of horror, quite detailed decapitations. I could watch that from an age of 15 according to local censorship laws but in my country showing the vulva in detail is apparently x rated and thus refused classification. Someone please tell me how sex is more damaging than violence? I’d like to know how a penis penetrating a vagina with a few moans is goign to harm a child/teen/adult if they saw it compared to a knife opening someone up.

              “I remember having a conversation with an older man that had said in the 70s, porn was much more light hearted and fun but that something happened and it’s much more hateful. I just want to know why so many men are watching stuff that is hateful. I want to know why so many men seem to both love women and want to use them for their bodies but hate the idea of having to actually treat them with respect and kindness and love. ”

              I’m not sure myself, I truly believe the majority aren’t after the hateful or degrading stuff. I don’t know anyone that wants to see someone abused n hurt, afaik most just wanna see sex. This is also why I want to see more good, loving porn created, and I believe there is far more being produced these days with access to cameras being so cheap.

              How many porn video clips have you seen? I’ve seen a few thousand over the years, and don’t recall ever watching it when dating someone (I didn’t date the one I loved, distance was a barrier but enough on that). I want to know why you think the majority is about young women with big tits? I know the most popular stereotype is young women with big tits but after all the stuff I’ve seen the only real common assumption would be younger women (18-30), majority is trimmed or shaven pubic hair which seems to mirror common fashions, happy women who enjoy the sex, or at least fake that they do, and of course the orgasm. But it also depends what type of porn you actively seek, there is SO MUCH variety, so many video clips and pictures to choose from, I’d easily guess a few million video clips and in excess of a billion pictures. There are a lot of videos for amateur, pro, old, young, fat, thin, black, white, so much content, so many different sites that it becomes hard to truly study what the most popular is. There is also a lot of content seen for free these days so we can’t rely just on sales, I know no one who actually pays for porn these days.

              Thing is, I see plenty of clips of hot young men with older women, women of all ages, body shapes, colours, it depends on what you SEARCH for. And yes I’ve seen porn where the actor appears to have trouble keeping an erection, can’t orgasm (scene changes are usually a give away after a while of him masturbating to try get to the money shot).

              Do you know why they have loud, over the top moans? I’d say a lot of men enjoy hearing their partner enjoying the sex, knowing they’re both having fun, it’s a big turnon if your partner is enthusiastic and enjoying it!

              Young women remain popular yes, why is this? It could be partly to do with biology, I’d say all of the media industries combined are at fault as well though. I have a Vogue magazine here I am reading (need to get poses for a photoshoot), and I see young thin women caked in makeup, ads for cosmetic surgery, clothing, makeup, etc. This is a magazine bought mostly by women from what I know, and other “women’s magazines” I’ve read have a similar theme but the thing is the women in these magazines are quite a bit thinner than the women I see in most porn. Women themselves are heavily promoting the thin ideal, it’s not fair to lay the blame solely with men, women need to own up to the responsibility and when you push this thin ideal it carries on to what people as a group find attractive.

              I am an overweight male, the ideal of beauty for men is far different to my body, the ideal is a chiseled low fat medium muscle tone body, even women’s magazines are full of these, but porn is made for fantasy and a smart producer will realize some men want to fantasize about being with the hot model, thus you get the overweight male with the hot woman video. Judging by the covers of many romance novels being a vision of men that very few can achieve, wouldn’t you suggest women too are promoting an ideal that many men cannot achieve? How many of the fantasy media for women involve overweight men? You can easily find porn of overweight men with model woman, model man with overweight woman. You can find probably any combination amongst the porn. I’ve heard there is a common theme of rape, or damn near close to it in many romance novels for females, if this is true is that representative of what women REALLY want? Or is it simply FANTASY. What I fantasize about isn’t always what I want, it’s fantasy, it can be whatever the hell I want it to be, there are men who watch gay porn but are hetereosexual. There are people who watch BDSM porn but lead vanilla lifestyles. Some folk watch cartoon porn but desire very real women/men.

              Maybe it’s time people start to realize fantasy and reality are separate, I have fantasized about being James Bond but never would I want to do that in real life, who the hell wants to live under death threats? I’ve fantasized about bedding a new woman every night but in reality I doubt I’d handle it, nor do I want to. I want 1 woman to bond with, fall in love, that’s my true fantasy but it’s not easy to find. I may or may not fantasize about other stuff after that, I’m not sure I’d care if she did as long as I knew she loved me and wanted me. If she wants to dream up scenarios with James Bond and a few others, good for her, long as it stays fantasy. If she wants to look at strippers, go for it, as long as she still finds me attractive and shows it. If not then of course there is an issue which would need to be addressed. Hell if you really wanna know what turns me on, it’s an intelligent woman who yes is also beautiful, but what I find beautiful isn’t the same as Joe down the road. Beauty is subjective, fantasies vary wildly, porn varies wildly, we can sit here n assume most men want x, but at the end of the day the individual matters a lot and what your partner desires could be completely different to what you assume. I’ve fantasized about women and watched porn of women twice my age.

              I don’t want to minimize your insecurities or feelings on the matter, I just wonder if it’s truly how you think, truly how I think, or if it’s different completely. I honestly think the medium is diversifying at a fast rate due to the internet, before it relied mostly on producers which like movie companies can stick to scripts but now so many people can buy good quality cameras for quite cheap, upload it to a free site and have it distributed to millions overnight. That allows for a huge level of diversity, everyone has their own tastes and everyone can now add to it when it use to be the domain of the few. If we ever get into a society which has less stigma to people making their own porn it will probably diversify it even more.

              As for if people need diversity…good question. I don’t think these “men” are doing something new, I’m sure some men n women in all of time has fantasized about others, it’s probably just more noticable these days due to being able to see the content they watch to get off to. And with the message women get from porn? Well I hope they also realize the message I get from it and hope continues, I hope people can differentiate between the genres of porn and reasons why people use it, I hope they can understand 1 person may watch it to degrade but another may watch it to celebrate sexuality. What is degrading to one person could be great for another, oral sex can be seen as degrading and also absolutely wonderful depending on the mindset you use to view it.

            • I’ve been away for a few days, didn’t get around to calling him out on it but I have now, thanks for the highlighting of it. At the time I felt you did ok at calling him out.

              Reason I said the other stuff was simply to show how negative stereotypes can be quite bad to use, what I see in your comment is trying to portray all men as wanting their cake n eating it too, some men saying they want x and others wanting y yet you imply men want both at the same time? Would it be fair for me to say women want equality but also to be financially supported by men? Women want to be seen as independent and all for equality but women also want to be financially supported by a man, want husbands that earn more money, want to be spoiled and not need to work. Now without the appropriate qualifiers women could mean some women, all women, a few women. Does that show why I took offense? You speak of men as a group, I spoke of women as a group and in some cases both of what we said is true BUT without the appropriate qualifier it becomes too generalized to have the right effect.

              “Despite the fact that some men will be into it and some won’t, It’s been my experience in that when it comes to sexuality, a lot men talk out of both sides of their mouths. That most men want a loving relationship AND some kinds of salacious sex with a variety of women. ”

              You do realize all of these things don’t have to happen at the same time? I wouldn’t mind a casual relationship, but I would prefer a longer term relationship with more of a connection, love n all that jazz. What these men might be saying is they’d like to have some casual relationships whilst waiting for their bigger relationships. What happens in porn though goes to the fantasy stage of the mind and doesn’t have to mirror reality, how often do you hear of women with rape fantasies? How many of them would want to take that to reality? The reason a lot of men seem 1 way is because you have 3billion men with a wide variety of desires, there will be similarities but there will also be major differences. Some men will like both casual n long term relationships, some will like just 1 or the other. It’s been my experience though that most men I talk to do NOT want to cheat on their partner, so it’s either casual relationships time OR long term time. If I had a long term relationship I wouldn’t want the casual relationships, but when I’m in casual relationships I could still desire something more how do I say…stable? By casual I mean friends with benefits, 1 night stands n the like.

              Now the big question, how do you know these stereotypes are infact the desire of the majority?

              I find in your comments quite a bit of shaming towards men and their sexuality going on, I find it quite offensive, the generalizations you use are what annoy me as I, a male, get painted with the same brush as others. What do you want to accomplish with your comments? Point out the negative and try to paint ALL men as doing this? Your lack of qualifiers is what is causing the big issue here as Heather shows in a different comment, it’s very confusing to know what you mean by “men”. The tone, the way your comments often sound are quite scathing of men and their sexuality, portraying a lot of shame felt by women to the point I feel you’re seeing far more negative in something than others do. Of course this isn’t wrong to feel as it is your feelings, but I’d like to know if you’re aware of this? I’m asking as I am totally confused on the intention of your posts, I don’t know anymore if you mean some men, all men, a few men, men in your experience only, and obviously this is probably causing miscommunication.

              I know I still drop generalizations in comments badly, I grew up in an area and I guess culture that uses them heavily and they can be a real PITA to get out of the automatic part of the brain, I actively try to avoid them because I dislike them especially as many people don’t actually mean to use them like they do. But please use more qualifiers, it’s quite possible that I actually agree with what you’re saying in the above comments if you only mean SOME men because yes some men are quite confusing. There is a conflict though that some men promoting x, others promoting y doesn’t meant men as a group promote x or y. I think in society we need to start focusing more on separating individuals from the groups, this judging based on the few is what caused the huge ruckus of feminist vs mra vs antifeminist vs egalitarians.

      • I missed this comment before but how can you assume every man has a little bit of that? Many men maybe, but all men? How can we assume all people to be of the same characteristic? It’s not like saying men need water to survive…

    • Qauntuminc, I feel much the same way. Not sure to laugh, shake my head or whatever. Is this really ingeneous? Not really. Selling the idea of sex to men with naked or barely naked women is nothing new. I will have to wait and see just how hard men want to fight certain negative stereotypes about themselves. A lot of guys take issue as only being projected a certain sexual way in the media. However, when these kind of services and products come out that specifically play on the most stereotyped elements of male sexuality, it’s up to men to deny them. If men truly care about changing their public images when it comes to sex, then it’s up to men buck the trend on services that overtly play to their most base desires.
      See here’s what I have a problem with sometimes. It seems that when it comes to stereotypes, when the stereotype is about certain groups society as a whole is expected to change but when its about other groups that groups is expected to change for society. Kinda sets up a condition of, “Stereotypes are only bad when they are about certain groups.” thing.

      With this business right here I’m fine with it in terms of there being guys that will hire this service and the fact that these women are choosing to engage in it. My problem is when people turn around and try to stereotype this on one hand people will say that “this will stereotype women as being up for sex, society needs to change this” and on the other “this will stereotype men slaves of lust, men need to change this”. I’m wondering why despite there being men that speak up about this stuff its still seen as okay to paint us with the same broad brush as other guys for quite literally no other reason than we guys just like they are.

      (In fact you could almost argue that saying the women need to do something about how they are stereotyped would be sexist because its putting the onus on women to change how society thinks of them. But somehow saying that men need to do something about how we are stereotyped is okay because the onus on changing how society thinks of men actually does lie on men?)

    • Joanna Schroeder says:

      Ultimately, it comes down to a woman’s ability to choose such work for herself. And that’s at the root of whether sex work should be embraced or banned. This is sex work. Even if she’s cleaning a house, she’s being hired as eye candy…

      And that’s completely fine if you believe the women who are engaging in sex work truly have choices. Personally, I do. I wish more sex work were legal so it could be properly monitored and the women and men could be more properly protected by the law and not shamed.

      One cannot really condemn someone for making jokes about nude maid service if one is also using pornography… Right? Jamie doesn’t say, “Finally, women are doing the work women should be doing! Nor is he saying, “If a woman’s going to work for me, I may as well be able to ogle her legs and breasts…”

      If you truly believe in a woman’s autonomy and agency, then you believe that these women choose this work with full knowledge of the way the work is viewed by society as a whole.

    • ” it’s up to men buck the trend on services that overtly play to their most base desires.”
      Why is the desire for sex a base one?

    • Peter Houlihan says:

      Yeah, I can see where you’re coming from, but so long as it’s consentual and fun then I don’t see the need to take it seriously.

      Personally, instead of hoping for the day when I can’t hire a naked maid service I’d prefer to hope for the day when you can hire a naked mechanic. ;)

  5. Do they have a website? I would think this idea is franchiseable lol

  6. Jamie Reidy says:

    Joe, thx for introducing me to a new acronym. Figured it out ABM and feeling pretty proud!

    Erin & Quant, when in doubt between shaking my head and laughing, I try to choose the latter.

    • I might have Jamie, but after reading some of the guy’s response to what I said. I feel even a little more sad and beat down as a woman about these matters.

      It seems the only thing that ever matters is that men of any age want young hot babes and the rest of us women can just screw ourselves if we feel our own amount of shame for what men are telling us they want most.

      • Do you have a partner atm? What does he say/desire? I see women of all ages seemingly wanting men who are “successful” but with a decent income but I also realize that part of that is my own insecurity. I suggest looking around at couples, you’ll find men of all ages are dating women of all ages, most commonly it is within 5 years age difference (at least where I am) so that is proof men and women do not all desire only young hot babes.

        Where are men telling you they only want young hot babes though? and which men? It’s quite possible that you have a negative view in your mind of what men want and you will take more notice of statements that reinforce it, confirmation bias. If that is so then I suggest breaking that cycle, really take the time to start noticing what other men are saying, doing, wanting, because there are a hell of a lot of them that desire a wide range of things.

        Try to ignore media if you can, it doesn’t portray a very realistic view of what people want. I find it extremely limited and just exacerbates stereotypes. Of the guys and girls I know their body preferences vary, some don’t care about looks much, some care quite a lot, some like thin women n men, some like thick men and women, even those who prefer thin women/men for example are still attracted to larger women/men and personality also counts for a huge amount.

  7. I could swear this is already a thing in gay neighbourhoods.

    • This doesn’t seem new to me either. I seem to remember a case on one of the (millions of) court TV shows a case about a male former nude maid suing his boss for firing him for some reason.

  8. wellokaythen says:

    How says this is all about sex? Such a rush to judgment.

    There are nudist/clothing-optional communities out there, and I think they ought to be able to hire housekeepers who will fit in with the lifestyle of the house. If the occupants don’t wear clothing, then it seems appropriate that the maids not wear it either.

    Other people are just really, really paranoid about their home security and have trouble trusting the help. If you’re obsessed with the fear that your housekeeper might steal from you, well, it’s more challenging if your housekeeper is nude.

    Is everything all about sex with you people?…. : – )

    • wellokaythen says:

      Should say “Who says”

    • Hell even when it is about sex does it automatically have to be bad? I could very easily imagine this becoming a hit with some fetishists. Maybe give clients the option of providing their own clothing for the maids to wear (pending the given maid’s approval first mind you).

      • wellokaythen says:

        No, I didn’t mean to suggest that if it’s about sexuality that it’s bad. Heck, no. I just think it’s funny that for so many people nudity automatically means sex.

        I don’t think “fetish” is a bad thing, either. That being said, I’m not so sure that enjoying looking at a nude woman in your house is much of a fetish. Certainly not some uncommon outlier of a fetish. I mean, it’s not like this would only appeal to 1% of the population. (And if it did, who cares? I’m just saying that this isn’t THAT kinky in the grand scheme of things….)

        • Could be a fetish for maids. Or a fetish for cleaning. Could be something of a power dynamic fetish…having someone work for you. That’s just off the top of my head. ;)

        • Sorry I wasn’t trying to say that you were I was trying to make that a general question in regards to the many people out there that do equate sex with being bad.

          As you say its funny that for many people nudity automatically means sex I say its messed up that for many people sex automatically means bad.

          My apologies.

          That being said, I’m not so sure that enjoying looking at a nude woman in your house is much of a fetish.
          In addition to what HeatherN says it could be a costuming fetish (which is why I said below about possibly giving clients the option of having the maids wear certain costumes, pending the maid’s approval of course). Perhaps a thing for upskirts where they would have the maid wear a skirt and have her clean in high places. Or maybe wear something that shows off their ass in a prefered way and have them bending over to clean low places. Perhaps even the client may want the maid to wear a suit and dress like a butler?

          Or maybe….Say the client would hire the maid to sit and boss them around and make them clean while both of them are naked because of a power dynamic fetish

          • Copyleft says:

            The Onion has ripped the cover off this shocking and bizarre behavior:

            http://www.theonion.com/articles/area-man-has-nakedlady-fetish,498/

            “Area Man Has Naked-Lady Fetish”

            “Looking at Warren Geary, you’d never suspect. A respected business owner and devoted family man, the 41-year-old Geary, by all outward indications, would appear to be just like anyone else in this sleepy New England hamlet of 4,700.

            “But dig a little deeper, beyond the many years of PTA involvement and Kiwanis Club membership, and you’ll discover a very different Warren Geary, one who derives sexual stimulation and pleasure from the sight of unclothed women. This seemingly normal husband and father of three has a naked-lady fetish.”

            Shocking. Truly shocking.

  9. Noah Brand says:

    There’s a lot of guys, and women too, who get off on being told to do housework in the nude. I’ve known more than one woman who took advantage of the free nude maid service being offered by local fetishists. I suppose it’s not that surprising that people would charge for it, too.

  10. wellokaythen says:

    From my pinko lefty pro-union point of view, I would want those housecleaners to have a lot of power to negotiate their working conditions, vis-à-vis the boss and vis-à-vis the customer. There may be health and safety issues involved with cleaning in the nude. For example, she ought to have the right to say that she wears knee pads or puts a cushion on the floor when scrubbing the bathtub. She ought to be able to demand the use of gloves when handling caustic cleaning chemicals. She can refuse to work in a rat-infested hoarder house without being fired for it. She should be allowed to unionize other sex workers and/or housecleaners.

    No blank check just because this is about sex and/or nudity. They are still workers and still have rights.

  11. What I get from the females commenting on this thread, is that women shouldn’t be ashamed of their sexuality, but men should. Gotcha.

  12. Often times, women are their own worst enemies. Until they stop putting themselves in these “positions” no PUN intended, they will be looked at as objects.

    • Well that’s not really a helpful argument. Firstly, it’s not up to women to cover themselves up. It implies two things, one that women can control how others see them, and two that men are slaves to their sex drives. Both are inaccurate.

      Secondly, there is absolutely nothing wrong with appreciating the sexiness of a woman, so long as the observer doesn’t stop thinking of the woman as a human, and so long as the observer doesn’t start equating the woman with specific attributes. Same goes for appreciating the sexiness of men, by the way.

  13. I really like reading through a post that can make people think.
    Also, thanks for allowing me to comment!

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