Open Discussion:
What do you think? Are you able to be more honest with you’re just with guys? What is it about having women present—be it in real life or online—that makes it harder to be honest?
Are there different things you can discuss with men more than women? Are there things you find easier to discuss with women?
Are The Avengers less honest when Black Widow is around?
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Yes and no. I’m far more open with the guys about “masculine” interests like sports, sexual interests, attraction to women, hot women, crude jokes, and other things like that, but I’m more honest and open about emotional stuff with women.
Honest? Not sure if that is the right word. I think men talk about different things or might speak differently when he is around other men but it is still circumstantial.
I feel more comfortable saying certain things around my male friends then I do just some random guys I just met or don’t really know. I am more apt to make crude jokes around my own sisters than I am around most men.
So for me it less about the gender and more about the comfort level.
Are you able to be more honest with you’re just with guys?
In some cases yes.
What is it about having women present—be it in real life or online—that makes it harder to be honest?
Previous experience where being honest around women didn’t work out. (I’m sure this would be the case with anyone who is more honest with X’s than with Y’s, fill in as you see fit.)
Are there different things you can discuss with men more than women?
Yes.
Are there things you find easier to discuss with women?
Not really in my experience.
Are The Avengers less honest when Black Widow is around?
I haven’t seen The Avengers yet so bear that in mind as I am kinda guessing here.
I’m wondering if it’s her being a woman that makes them more honest or is it because of exactly who she is. She is a SHIELD agent that Nick Fury has a lot of trust and faith in. I’m not entirely sure if that trust and faith would somehow decline if Black Widow were a man.
Now if you’re asking in a generic non gendered way then I’d I’m not sure but I’m guessing you aren’t. If the question is gendered and is asking if The Avengers would be less honest without a female member, I would think that would not make a difference.
Karate class with all men is quite the learning experience…every sentence is punctuated with one of the 7 deadly words….after learning karate for 3 years, I have gotten much closer to the guys in class….when my sensei lost his job and went on unemployment for a few months, he did not so much as tell us as he acted out his extreme irritability and frustration….sometimes he would come in drunk (usually Thursday evenings) and want to judo wrestle the other guys to the ground….sometimes passing spectators would look in on us alarmed, but I had to cover for them and applaud as if their over-the-top wrestling was just part of a training exercise….
Various karateka have come and gone….I am one of the rare few who stuck it out all this time….sometimes I feel like I am apprentice to a great master, sometimes I feel like his therapist….I just listen and hear him out…I am careful not to offer any solutions unless specifically asked….it is true that things between us started out different, but now we are close in many ways that are surprising even to me (we are such a motley crew!)….I suppose it may have to do with really understanding how to do karate properly….there is a basic truth and integrity to it that you cannot fudge or fake….if you do it wrong, you could get hurt….if you do it right, you can defeat your attacker or maybe knock him out….our style of karate involves getting very close to your opponent so that you can target those vital spots….it forces you to get really close to your fellow students and you can feel that person’s energy or anxiety or frustration….to earn the brown belt, sensei says I have to step it up and actually get in there and look more aggressive (I guess right now I look like I am just dancing the kata!)…
When I took taekwondo, we had to promise to respect our classmates, respect women and defend women and the weak as a condition of entering the dojang. Respect and concern for your classmates and opponents are very important in a combat sport. Trust factored in a lot when we were practicing trapping techniques. You didn’t want to snap an arm or someone else’s. That’s why I always hated sparring one of the two women who were in our class. Talk about dishonest. I could never bring myself to come at them hard.
“to earn the brown belt, sensei says I have to step it up and actually get in there and look more aggressive (I guess right now I look like I am just dancing the kata!)…”
A friend of mine took taekwondo and muay thai. He told me that one main difference in the disciplines is perception. In taekwondo you envision yourself kicking someone in the sternum. In muay thai you envision your foot going through his sternum and out the back of his spine. The problem might be perception or a fear that you might hurt someone.
Our style of karate is Uechi Ryu, which emphasizes close contact with your opponent….as a green belt doing kyu kumite (pre-arranged sparring), if you are the defender, you step back when the attacker makes the first punch….now sensei wants the defender to step FORWARD and block, instead of stepping back (for the brown belt)….as a petite female going up against a tall (5’11″) and sweaty male Hispanic sparring partner, I can feel panic rising up when I stand face to face with my opponent (I have to focus on his chin and throat area…it is too distracting and unnerving for me to look directly into his eyes)…my partner is an Ivy League grad and lawyer, who is very polite and respectful, but even though I know he would not hurt me intentionally, I can feel how much more powerful he is….I am not afraid of hurting him; rather I am afraid of him hurting me (even though I know he won’t)….I do karate to try to desensitize myself to my fear of large men (it is a struggle every time I go to class)….that is my primal fear that I need to get over….
That depends on how well I know the women and what is being discussed. I won’t talk about sex in front of women unless she’s the woman I’m having sex with and no one else is around. I won’t talk about committing violence or legally dubious or unethical acts in front of women. My choice of words is impacted when women are around. I could show more fear or uncertainty in front of guys. A friend’s brother died and I remember us guys comforting each other in our grief, but I also remember holding his sister and trying to be strong while she was crying. I don’t show as much vulnerability in front of women.
I don’t think there are any topics where it’s easier to talk to women. It might be because many of my friends I’ve known for 30+ years. There are times when I’ll specifically seek out a woman’s opinion or insight.
What i’ve noticed is that *groups of men* behave very different if there’s women around. A group of men can have one dynamic, but as soon as a woman enters the room, the dynamic changes; suddenly the men are trying to show off, impress the women, make themselves stand out as the best pick. And since this to some extend is a mask, honesty is probably a victim. Likewise, groups of women will compete when there’s a man around.
In my observation this is group behaviour. A woman may be one person when you have her alone, but change dramatically when she’s in a group; as long as you’re one-on-one, the competition for attention is not there. From talking to women I gather men are the same – one persone when they’re one-on-one with a women, switching to the show-off attitude if another man is there.
So – I don’t think men are less honest women are around. But I do think there’s a mixed-gender group dynamic that involves competition for (sexual) attention that will make a group of men change what they talk about, how they talk about it, and how honest they are about their feelings, if there’s a woman in the room. Ditto for groups of women.
Even without the competition factor – say, the woman who is present among the men is already spoken for and “off the market” – I’ve noticed men clean up their language and behavior a bit when a woman joins the group. It reminds me of how kids will horseplay or rough each other up on the playground until an adult is present. Maybe it’s not always about competition – maybe sometimes the reaction comes from a fear of “getting in trouble” with the woman. I can see this especially if the woman is intimidating or in some position of power.
In other words, to be very very simplistic about it, there are two primary female roles in a man’s worldview: mate, and mother. A man, or group of men, may revert to their “best behavior” when there’s a potential mate around…or, a potential “mother” who can punish them.
Just a theory.
“In other words, to be very very simplistic about it, there are two primary female roles in a man’s worldview: mate, and mother. A man, or group of men, may revert to their “best behavior” when there’s a potential mate around…or, a potential “mother” who can punish them.”
I know you acknowledged that is very simplistic, but I ‘d say that’s simplistic enough to be inaccurate. How does this pertain to gay cis-men? No to mention the way this seems to revert back to the old Harry Met Sally “men and women can’t be friends,” mantra, which is such rubbish.
I’ve observed similar behaviour to what you’re describing though, particularly when I was in high school. It used to piss me the heck off because most of my friends were guys…anyway, I think the reason that you can see men clean up their language, etc. when a woman joins the group is more to do with the way we’re socialized to view and treat women. We’ve still got this “women are fragile” and “women are sensitive” and “girls are all sugar and spice,” thing going on in our culture. It’s a hold-over from when women were viewed more like children…they had to be protected from such language, etc.
Speaking just for myself, obviously, I find I’m more honest and at ease around women. When I’m around men, there’s always this element of competition: who’s the tallest, the smartest, the toughest, who can one-up the other guys better. I don’t like it, but I get drawn into it every damn time. A lot of you guys can probably relate to that problem: you know the competition is stupid and pointless, but damned if you’ll let someone else win it, right?
Around women or in a more mixed group, the competition eases and I can relax more, be more honest. Most of my closest friends, ever since I was a teenager, have been women. Of course, sooner or later I’ve slept with a majority of them, which may be a factor in feeling relaxed and comfortable in their presence. I’m reluctant to generalize too strongly from my own experience.
“I don’t like it, but I get drawn into it every damn time. A lot of you guys can probably relate to that problem: you know the competition is stupid and pointless, but damned if you’ll let someone else win it, right?”
I’ve been with a group that competed all the time and I’ve been with a group that doesn’t compete. I actually don’t see any less competition from the competitive group when women were around. That may have actually made it worse since the women were pretty competitive too. The men and women weren’t competing against each other because they want to be attractive to each other, but the ones who were already paired up. “My man makes more than that.”, “My man just got a raise.”, and so on.
The other group, both men and women, are pretty uncompetitive with each other. We didn’t feel emasculated when a female friend came in from out of town and told us she made just over $100K. She probably wished she told us after we had already paid the bar bill. You knew after that she was paying.
Okay couple of comments on this question: First, why bring The Avengers into it? I mean I reference how cinema and t.v. can reflect real life often, but this seems like too direct a comparison, and done a little backwards. Asking about one specific piece of media when discussing cultural norms is a bit odd.
Anyway, as for whether the men in Avengers are more dishonest when around Black Widow, I’d say no…actually the opposite. She’s an interrogator…she gets everyone to tell the truth. Also, Joss Whedon wrote the script and directed it…it’s pretty safe to assume that the interactions between male and female characters won’t end up resorting to the lowest common denominator.
Okay one more comment:
I think this questions is far too gender essentialist. I mean, if there is some truth to the idea that a group of men will often change their behaviour when a woman join in, I think there is a lot more to consider than just their perceived gender. Does it matter whether the woman is cis or trans? Does sexual orientation have any effect? Would a group of gay men react the same way to a woman joining a group? How about a group of straight men and a lesbian? Or a group of gay men and a lesbian? Or what if they’re all bisexual or pansexual?
I think a lot of what we assume to be “normal” interactions between men and women is actually dependent on assuming that those men and women are cis and straight.
I’ve had a few lesbian friends and for what it’s worth, they’re just one of the guys. The only possible exception is that they usually initiate the conversations about hot girls so there might be an initial lag time where we don’t associate her with one of the guys. I don’t have any openly gay friends. I have a friend who I think is bisexual, but we never asked because we don’t care. His brother is openly gay, but doesn’t hang out with us.
I don’t think that a silent openly gay man would change the conversation much (except that guys wouldn’t question other guy’s sexual orientation or masculinity while he was around). I’m unsure of how a vocal, assertive, gay man would affect a conversation of CIS men. It probably would depend on what he said. A trans man would probably fare as well as a gay man. A trans woman would probably kill the conversation altogether. If she was extremely hot, it would probably make a lot of guys very uncomfortable.
“Are men less honest when women are around?”
If so, it’s because women have trained them to be that way. Anyone who punishes honesty has no right to complain about being lied to, ever again.
Um, no. You could possibly argue that society has socialized most men in such a way that they end up being less honest around women, but it’s not because “women trained them to be that way.” Everyone is socialized and that means everyone has been taught to restrict their behaviour in certain ways, and that may include men being taught it’s better to be less honest with women about certain topics.
That’s some pretty heavy victimization right there. So, according to you, men are powerless, shapeless creatures that women can form at will? Men have no personal responsibility? And men have no role in deciding who and what they are?