Today’s open discussion comes to you courtesy of a conversation on my Louis CK post regarding whether or not Women’s Studies programs in universities are inherently anti-male. As a graduate of the UCLA Women’s Studies program, I never once felt that my studies were anti-male, but I wanted to provide a space for debate on this subject.
What do you think? Does the study of women’s history, literature and theory come part-and-parcel with anti-man sentiment? Have any of you participated in a Women’s Studies program and came away feeling it was anti-male?
Does studying authors like “MacKinnon, Dworkin, and some of the more colorful Steinem” as Mike L. points out, naturally make a whole program anti-man?
Are there ways in which the women’s movement, Women’s Studies programs being a part of that, have helped men? Has the changing role of women in today’s society made men more free?
Please note: This is an open thread, you may discuss anything you want without topical moderation. However, we ask that you please refrain from insulting any commenter or calling names.
The answer is of course yes: look at the results of women’s studies in law and policy. The Duluth Model of domestic violence that defines men as perpetrators and women as victims and in extension VAWA (Violence Against Women Act), bot as a result of patriarchy theory. Sexual revolution and no fault divorce, which led to the destruction of the family, fatherlessness, paternity fraud, rise in divorce and decline in marriage, huge increase in the welfare state, extracting men’s resources or putting them in jail en masse in the form of alimony and child support; all as a result of… Read more »
Seeing the result of these programs and the culture we live in, this is sort of like asking a Nazi professor at a Nazi University in WW2 Germany “Are Aryan race studies inherently racist?”
Women’s studies is basically a course in the feminist ideology, it is an indoctrination into the theory of feminism, through the eyes & of anti-male feminist, at least that is my perception of it & I actually found most men I came in contact with back then & now, for the most part see it that way.
I haven’t read all the comments, so I apologize if this is old ground. While I haven’t taken any womens studies courses, its hard for me to imagine that one wouldn’t end up being inherently anti-man. Getting half the story in any situation will always give you a skewed viewpoint – a women’s studies program is going to be designed to only examine the female side of the gender story,. A female abuse victim is much more likely to write about her experiences than a female abuser, and the story of an abused man wouldnt be, I’d imagine, within the… Read more »
I haven’t taken a women’s studies class, but our grad studies class has looked at women’s issues. For example in our leadership class we examined the difference in leadership styles between men and women and looked at why women fail to reach the top leadership positions. It was basically attributed to gender discrimination (mostly indirect). We spoke about sexual harassment in gender neutral terms in ethics class. The law is nit gender neutral with a reasonable man and reasonable woman standard that allows women to get away with behaviors that men would not be able to get away with. This… Read more »
I once was considering being a nurse and I went to see the head of my program to ask some questions and find out what the course work consisted of. Oh My God she was so incredibly rude and sexist toward me that it was almost shocking. I was very naive.
Women’s Studies are inherently anti-man, and they aren’t. Women are inherent;y anti-man and they aren’t. Anyone who thinks there isn’t now and will always be antagonism between women and men in society isn’t really paying attention. I say ‘so what’. Men’s Rights groups are the same way. Men and women are sorting out thousands of years of history in the context of a potential future in which we all face unprecedented problems. The gender roles of the past are, of necessity, being re-evaluated. It’s a complex question with no simple answer. Should we, as men, expect some women to stop… Read more »
“Women’s Studies programs are an inevitable part of that debate. It hasn’t really been so long – in the overall scheme of things – that women were banned from academic life. They still have a bone to pick.”
I’ll agree with you when the government says that they’ll draft only women and place only women in front line positions because men have had to do the bulk of the sacrificing up to now.
The thing is John your pointing out of the draft and Dingo’s pointing out of women and academia are both correct. There is a lot of f’d up stuff on both sides here.
You’ve been indoctrinated into thinking women were oppressed in the past. Men died at rates of 1,000 to 1 for all jobs in the past and 1,000,000 to 1 for all wars in the past. Save childbirth, there’s no area of life where men didn’t suffer disproportionally. As far as education goes, you’re comparing the elite to the serfs. In the general population a girl was a likely to read the newspaper to her father a 100 years ago. Men must be the worst oppressors ever. Here’s you choice, if you weren’t one of the elite, from 200 years ago… Read more »
There is no man or woman alive who who hasn’t had the right to life, freedom, property and vote in the US. No one alive has ever been denied any right in the US. Anything more than the right to life, freedom property and vote is a privilege, not a right.
Hugo Schwyzer wrote an article about how he cuckolded a man but didn’t tell him but that is okay because https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/i-may-have-a-son-but-ill-never-know-for-sure/ Schwyzer has a strange way of making his macho posturing look like “feminism”. He also wrote another article about how women are too competitive and it’s essentially men’s fault that women are that way. If only men would be men then women can be women. “It’s not your fault you a mean girl.” I kid you not that is the actual name of the article written for the Jezebel website. http://jezebel.com/5853544/its-not-your-fault-that-youre-so-catty If Hugo Schwyzer of the Jezebel represents the… Read more »
Re Jezebel article:I guess they are advocating that women have less accountability n responsibility, it’s men’s fault! Some comments there are strange…
Jezebels moderation policy is ridiculous. Since they exclude any dissenting voices the nature of the discussion just gets more and more extreme.
So, I assume that all of the “working mom who opens her car door and junk spills out all over the ground” bloggers out there would have no problem with their sons going off to college to study Rush Limbaugh, Larry Flint, and some of the more colorful Norman Mailer?
I graduated from a well-regarded small liberal arts college this year. While I only completed one women’s and gender studies course (taught by a male psychology professor), many of my friends took classes and even majored in the field. The consensus*? The only one worth taking was Intro to Gender Studies – the one I was in. The rest were sex-negative, misandrist, anti-science, and transphobic. For example, a second-wave feminist who confessed that she “didn’t understand” trans people taught a course on non-binary genders. Predictably, it did not go well. That’s obviously just one department at one college, but we… Read more »
I believe some of this anti-male sentiment is an unwanted side effect of many feminists and the professors of these classes to the issues of men. I think i mentioned this somewhere else: its like women believing they should be able to walk anywhere at night without feeling afraid for threat of assault and that men don’t have that problem. Even if you scratch everything after the “and” it could be taken that they don’t care about men or that its unimportant to look at the larger picture including men.
Will you listen to someone with an educated background? “As a person who has taught in departments of women’s studies, psychology, political science and sociology in many universities (and the only man ever elected three times to the Board of the National Organization for Women in New York City), I can tell you that the core male-female message is: “we live in a patriarchal world in which men created laws to benefit men at the expense of women.” If our sons arrive on campus, they will inevitably be trying to date women who are exposed to and learning this negative… Read more »
Great point
We can all hope right?
I don’t know if gender studies are anti male, but they seem to be predominantly feminist and feminism has an “anti male culture”. By “anti male culture” I mean a culture where misandry is common and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, language and theories normalize, excuse, tolerate, or even condone misandry.
Gender studies are not inherently anti male if they are able to lose this “anti male culture”.
@Alberich I agree with you to *some* degree. I think that a huge part of this “anti-male culture” stems from the fact that many men won’t explore the field. When men take part in these programs–and I especially speak from personal experience–what happens in the class is that the male-bashing (if there was any before) comes to a screeching halt because people can see the affet male-bashing has on men in the class, trying to learn. I’ve never experience male-bashing in any of my classes (well…maybe this one woman). Even when the whole class examined radical lesbian feminist (which was… Read more »
Hold on Kaleb. First you say it stems from men not exploring the field but when men do explore the field the man bashing comes to a halt? So when men aren’t their the anti-male sentiment happens but when men show up it suddenly disappears? Feel free to say otherwise but it would seem that a part of the reason men aren’t exploring the field is because of the anti-male sentiment so if there was some effort on both sides (as in more men exploring the field and and the people on the inside get rid of the anti-male sentiment)… Read more »
I have no problem clerifying what I said. I said that I haven’t experienced male bashing except for once. When that happened no one was in the class yelling “yeah we agree–we hate men too!” That was an instance where one person took their frustration out on all men, and she stood alone because other women in the class knew it wasn’t right. Good catch though. “so if there was some effort on both sides (as in more men exploring the field and and the people on the inside get rid of the anti-male sentiment) it would work out for… Read more »
That was an instance where one person took their frustration out on all men, and she stood alone because other women in the class knew it wasn’t right. Good catch though.
Did they actually voice that or was she left in silence?
Kaleb: “I think that a huge part of this “anti-male culture” stems from the fact that many men won’t explore the field.” I agree, the absence of male voices might promote misandry, as with the gender reversed situation and misogyny. “I’ve never experience male-bashing in any of my classes…” You say male bashing and I say misandry, are those the same? I was not referring to feminists proclaiming: “We hate men!” or “Men are stupid!”, this will be indeed rare, I meant more subtle stuff. To give examples of said misandry, I will restrict my self to feminists on the… Read more »
Excellent points Alberich, especially the last sentence. Aggrieved/outsiders of a movement/group are typically the ones who are allowed to say if a movement/group have overstepped bounds of rudeness or bias, not insiders. Of course then, pundits of the group can present facts as they want as a rebuttal. Never before has anybody ever said that you have to be a member of a movement/group to raise a *valid* criticism of the movement. That raises feminism unto a power that only answers to itself. Feminism (in aggregate when judged as a whole, not necessarily any who self-identify as feminist here) reminds… Read more »
“Finally I want to propose a feminist disagreeing with me here to consider: you don’t let Republicans be the judges of the misogyny in the Republican Party, why would men let feminists be the judges of the misandry (or lack thereof) in feminism?”
EXCELLENT question.
“Finally I want to propose a feminist disagreeing with me here to consider: you don’t let Republicans be the judges of the misogyny in the Republican Party, why would men let feminists be the judges of the misandry (or lack thereof) in feminism?”
True that.
So what we’ve done here is as they say, “set us up” for a fall. Joanna, you said that “your” studies program … wait, let me get the exact wording …. “I never once felt that my studies were anti-male, but I wanted to provide a space for debate on this subject.” But then went on to say “What do you think? Does the study of women’s history, literature and theory come part-and-parcel with anti-man sentiment?” The real deal is that I don’t believe you really want to know what “we” think unless it falls in line with what “you”… Read more »
Tom B, This entire post is basically a huge personal attack on me. You’re f’ing lucky I’m not deleting it, but don’t think it didn’t cross my mind. You’re mad AT ME for giving you a place to discuss, among yourselves, something that I believe is actually inherently WRONG and I haven’t moderated it beyond taking out something unkind that *I* said? Yeah, I disagree with most of you and I actually have a degree from a top-rated University that I paid my own way through while working full time, and graduated with a 3.2 GPA – FROM UCLA –… Read more »
Joanna, it was not meant to be a personal attack. You happen to be the originator of the article. I have no reason to personally attack you. But then again, if it is how you felt about it, I apologize for my giving you that impression. You said “You’re mad AT ME for giving you a place to discuss, among yourselves, something that I believe is actually inherently WRONG and I haven’t moderated it beyond taking out something unkind that *I* said?” … I’m not mad at you at all. See, when what is it that when a guys says… Read more »
Tom B. – “So what we’ve done here is as they say, “set us up” for a fall.” “The real deal is that I don’t believe you really want to know what “we” think unless it falls in line with what “you” want us to think.” “When we say what we think, what we feel, we’re quickly shown to be wrong.” “So basically, we’ve been set up to spill our guts in an attempts to validate our feelings but instead be made into narrow minded anti-feminists.” “…but woe be to anyone who dares to disagree” You don’t think you sound… Read more »
@Joanna ….”I’m angry, I’m angry at you and *I’m* not afraid to admit I’m mad. Call me a shrieking woman, a hysterical woman, go for it. I don’t care if you think that.” But if you were not angry and I told you that you were, I don’t think you’d be too happy about it, would you? Again, and I am sincere about this, I apologize for leading you to feel the way you did about what I said. It was not my intent. Nor was it my intent that people think that you purposely set this up for a… Read more »
Your tone appears accusational (or whatever the word is). Instead try say “I feel you are doing this”, and ASK if she is doing instead of TELLING her she is doing X. It’ll avoid an argument.
Joanna … let’s keep this clear. You said “You’re mad AT ME for giving you a place to discuss… “ You didn’t say I “sound man” so take some responsibility here Okay? You could have said. “I hope you’re not mad at me for …” Or “you appear to be mad” But you didn’t, you said “You’re mad AT ME” Okay …. So can we keep this accurate? Now for the condescending BS “You don’t think you sound mad? Take a moment here, Tom, this could be a HUGE moment in your life. I believe you that it wasn’t your… Read more »
Semantics. The foundation of all excellent baseless arguments.
When you have a solid point, you don’t need semantics.
Sorry if I seemed condescending about the “big moment” thing, I was definitely being condescending because I’m very familiar with this style of arguing and I tend to get snarky as a result. But I don’t need to be so bitchy.
This is my last comment on this subject, and my last discussion with you, Tom B. Congrats on the grandkids… Kids are the best. And Kaleb is a great name!
How many different people have to say the same thing to you before you’re willing to listen? Maybe it is a personal attack. But that’s because this is the way you keep coming off to people – as someone who’s more interested in ‘winning’ than ‘listening’; as someone who only wants a dialogue if you get to dictate the terms of that dialogue, and as someone who will shift the terms of that dialogue if they don’t like the way that it’s going. Maybe you should stop thinking of this is a classroom and yourself as a teacher – because… Read more »
Tom B, I’m going to have to side with Joanna on this one. She’s done nothing but create a space for something she apparently finds important–as a WS major (with honors at a great Catholic school), this is important to me too. I can definitely attest to this: “Our WS program had classes about gender, a LOT of classes about gender, as well as classes about gay men, men’s relationships, men in literature, classic masculinity, and on and on and on. Men were very warmly welcomed into our department, dare I say even recruited.” Tom, you said “Much of “Women’s… Read more »
Whatever happens in the actual classes, the themes, concepts, and philosophical arguments are decidedly anti-male and, according to Ms. Mayer, “negative.”
Which explains why most women, after all theses decades refuse to align with feminism.
I instead of sticking their heads in the sand, the feminist / women’s studies community would be wise to listen to Ms. Mayer. She’s doing what Womens Studies theories theory says that women are blocked from doing.
Kaleb, you’re right. The women’s study programs are not anti-male. So I’m not sure why this was open up for discussion?
BTW, GREAT name “Kaleb” which happens to be the name of my grandson who is due to arrive in early September
Tom B
Would it creep you out if I told you I was born in September?
Kaleb, it wouldn’t creep me out at all. Maybe September is a month for Kalebs? On another note, My other Grandsons name is Noah ….. NO, we didn’t name them after GMP writers. Just happen to be cool names.
So what we’ve done here is as they say, “set us up” for a fall. Joanna, you said that “your” studies program … wait, let me get the exact wording …. “I never once felt that my studies were anti-male, but I wanted to provide a space for debate on this subject.” But then went on to say “What do you think? Does the study of women’s history, literature and theory come part-and-parcel with anti-man sentiment?” I’ll admit it Tom. I thought the exact same thing when I first read thist post. That this was just her baiting us into… Read more »
I’d also like to note that we’ve slid the “gender” studies into this where as gender studies and women’s studies are two different things. I think this is a bit of a fair point. When it comes to those two different disciplines there seems to be some slight of hand where “Women” is being passed off as “Gender” (which comes up in the arguments I’ve seen that were along the lines of “Why have a Men’s/Male Studies when there’s already Gender/Women’s Studies”). I totally concede this point. You’re definitely right. Women’s Studies programs SHOULD be becoming more of a gender… Read more »
I totally concede this point. You’re definitely right. Women’s Studies programs SHOULD be becoming more of a gender studies program. Actually let me modify that a bit (from my own perspective) if you will. I myself have no problem with there being programs that focus on women’s studies. When talking about that slight of hand my problem is that when people try to bring up the idea of men’s studies or male studies the response is “but women’s studies covers that stuff” when it seems that it doesn’t. (Which of course relates to men that start doing work towards gender… Read more »
I didn’t study gender studies, but there was a series of lectures on feminism as a part of our critical theory module and they very much beat the drum of “Women have it worse, men are responsible.”
In terms of gender studies itself, I’ve seen material which suggests that, yes, many gender/women’s studies courses are still a bit behind the times.
I think that the reaction to the proposed men’s center at SFU is pretty telling. The objections posted were full of the idea that men are responsible for all evil.
And declarations that it would be a den of fostering bad forms of masculinity.
I remember people getting upset over folks trying to prejudge Sarkeesian’s work before it even released. But apparently it’s fine to judge a men’s center as a den of evil before it’s even built.
@Peter: “I think that the reaction to the proposed men’s center at SFU is pretty telling. The objections posted were full of the idea that men are responsible for all evil.”
You know what, I think that’s an incredibly interesting observation. Hopefully people will come to understand that most people in women’s studies programs actually detest “this idea that men are responsible for all evil.”
Not to get too harsh but if those “most people” would actually show some detest at those that do embrace this idea that “men are responsible for all evil…”.
LMAO. Don’t hold your breath.
Well the thing is IDBY it’s going to have to come from all sides.
There’s way too much attitude from people on all sides where they expect “the other side” to just put up with the negativity coming at them while at the same time calling on them to do something about the negativity that is coming from their side.
The main problem for me is all the denial. I feel like I’m dealing with substance abusers who can’t admit they have a problem. All i hear is “Were not negative. What are you talking about?”
This is me showing some detest.
That comment was both funny and sad.
@ Danny
The people who were making the assumptions seemed to be the same people that took/taught a women’s studies class. Before questioning the motives of the men, the women’s center used eerily similar language to systems of power to argue that the men’s center was everywhere else. When someone is making the comments, it’s hard for them to detest the comments.
If that’s so then they’re being shouted down by a very vocal minority.
Being against discrimination or inequality does not make you against all of those who are not subjected to that treatment. Like being against racism is not being anti-white, because everyone who is white is not racist or promoting racism simply because they are not the target of it. If you are a feminist, it should be described as standing in favor of equality, not in defiance of the entire male gender. The entire male gender does not perpetuate sexism collectively, but we are not maligned within a sexist culture like women have been. Is that a benefit? Is being exempt… Read more »
This is an *incredibly* important distinction, thank you Jon.
The entire male gender does not perpetuate sexism collectively, but we are not maligned within a sexist culture like women have been.
Now do you mean that to say that men are not maligned at all or just in ways different from women?
Feminism and the study of the female gender from a social persepective should be seen as taking an anti-discrimination stance as opposed to an anti-male one.
The reason it’s not being seen as such is because there are times when they are taking an anti-male stance under the guise of anti-discrimination.
I meant that men are not maligned in terms of American history in ways that would prevent the entire gender from getting a fair shake. Women could not vote, own property, in most cases women were not allowed to work and when they do work, they make far less than a man would for the same work, women have been inadequately protected judicially from domestic abuse, rape and assault, and in general the female perspective has ultimately been dismissed, disregarded and invalidated. This has all been perpetrated by men. So in examination of our history, one can conclude that feminism… Read more »
So in examination of our history, one can conclude that feminism is the rejection of that practice and of those who perpetuate it. And if you look at the way feminism is manifested in some cases one can conclude that those practices and it’s perpetrators aren’t the only ones that get rejected. Feminism is not anti-male, it is anti-male-who believes women should fit into a pre-determined role absent the consideration of the woman’s individual input. If you are one of those guys, then yeah, feminism is anti-you, but it is not anti-male. Nice point. Problem is those aren’t the only… Read more »
About the topik, I never been in a woman class study group. So I really cant say whats going on there. And I dont presume negatives. But im surpriced when I read, some young women getting out of the class resentfull against society (understandable) and men (why?). I dont know if it is the result of bad theacher or a fault in the study program. So this leads me to a question to who did the class, (female) when you first finish the class, was you resentfull toward males if yes why? (male) when you finish the class, was you… Read more »
The main problem I have with women’s studies is that while it is presented as ‘gender theory’, too many people take it as gender ‘fact’, they forget that most of what is taught in terms of theory like patriarchy and privilege is a THEORY and ONLY A THEORY. There are also competing theories that are no more right and especially NO MORE WRONG than “pat” and “priv”. But unfortunately too many people think that gender theory is the end all be all of what is right and wrong. I have had many discussions about male privilege, and most women (and… Read more »
I think you’re on to something there John. I’ll be the first to say that male privilege does exist but not in the way that it is blanketly declared and surely not in the way that it is used to shut men out of gender conversation. While this statement is true, it isn’t a privilege because these male politicians aren’t working collectively towards the betterment of men and not towards the betterment of women (at least not here in canada). Same here in the States. But somehow when these male politicians act against women it is sometimes treated as proof… Read more »
I think it’s important to acknowledge degrees and qualifications of privilege. The claim that “The majority of politicians are male” is often taken as evidence of male privilege, but the majority of politicians (at least, in America) are also far wealthier than their constituents, which would suggest the “privilege” at the crux of this issue is not one solely of gender, but of gender, wealth, and a variety of other factors. The flip side to this? Female privilege is alive and well. It’s easy (as I once posited to a female friend in a fit of impoverished, sullen sobriety) to… Read more »
Oh I agree that nuances should be made. Problem is it’s not made as often as it should be.
And yes female privilege is real no matter how badly many feminists want to deny it or twist it into “benevolent sexism”.
@ Mark “The claim that “The majority of politicians are male” is often taken as evidence of male privilege, but the majority of politicians (at least, in America) are also far wealthier than their constituents, which would suggest the “privilege” at the crux of this issue is not one solely of gender, but of gender, wealth, and a variety of other factors.” Two things to note, vast sums of wealth are controlled by women. It may have been accumulated by their late husbands, but they inherited it. Women make up the majority of the electorate in the U.S. This becomes… Read more »
“The flip side to this? Female privilege is alive and well. It’s easy (as I once posited to a female friend in a fit of impoverished, sullen sobriety) to find female privilege at bars and restaurants. Most of my female friends have been treated to meals or alcohol at a man’s expense. This also carries caveats: Obviously, it’s easier for a generically attractive and traditionally feminine women to obtain free food and drinks than women who would be considered less attractive and less feminine.” I agree partially, because what you call female privilege, its what accademics call ‘ benevolent sexism… Read more »
“But male privilege is not a choice, its a role, a script that you get from you culture and society. Something you cannot choose away. Something that is enforced on you from birth, and with the worst imaginable conseguences possible, if you fail. IMO we should replace the word male privilege, or wmp and female privilege; with benevolent sexism for both sexes (but that needs to be elaborated deeper, I cant right now,).” I think this paragraph should be a comment of the day because it raises some great questions about the benefits of sexism. (i.e. My 3-4 girl friends… Read more »
Having attended a liberal arts university known for its leftward political bent and vast queer community where the Women’s Studies chair was quoted on the door of the departmental office as having said something to the effect of, “Men have no place in Women’s Studies”, where said department bristled at the notion of a transition from a “Women’s Studies” department to a “Gender Studies” department, I’d have to say, much as I’d like to be able to deny it, SOME Women’s Studies programs are biased by SOME biased women (and men, in all likelihood). This is not something that I’d… Read more »
I don’t know if women’s/gender studies courses are anti-male because I have not attended on. I am considering attending a gender studies or womans studies course and I probably will because the subject matter is interesting to me. Internet style feminism is full of ugly, reprehensible, and unabashed hatred toward men and sexist publications such a Jezebel will cynically publish anything just to push peoples buttons and get those page views. http://jezebel.com/5801888/lonely-single-men-become-part-of-an-involuntary-flash-mob
Are women’s/gender studies courses different? I sure hope so.
I have heard MacKinnon speak along with other prominent people at an event to commemorate the Anita Hill Senate hearings (and to promote her book on the issues of housing and equality)….let me add that there were quite a few men up on the stage, too, and in the audience to support her…. I have never identified strongly as a feminist until a few years ago when an ex came out of nowhere and started stalking me at work/home….as I was forced to confront the terror and danger he posed to me and my family, I remembered how it all… Read more »
Leia, First just because there were men on stage supporting MacKinnon does not mean he message wasn’t anti-male. Dworkin’s Right Wing Women is entirely about her belief that conservative women have essentially been recruited to be anti-women. That logic can work both ways with some men recruited to be anti-male. Second, I would argue that men are REGULARLY stalked by women. I personally have a story of a woman I had broken up with suddenly showing up to see me in the ER at 4am because she was just “so worried” about me. People write her a pass even though:… Read more »
@john hall L. — I am so sorry about those stalking episodes that occurred to you personally and to your friends (I agree….women can be stalking psychos, too!)… But back to the workplace….the inequality of power that occurred in the harassment by my supervisor of me (naive stupid teen) was horrendous….he took advantage of that work situation…several people tried to report him but he weaseled himself out of it….[technically, he should be in jail for what he did to me]…. And then back to Anita Hill….it didn’t matter that she was a lawyer and well-spoken and well-educated, she also felt… Read more »
Leia, I think there are two separate problems here. First, your experience causes you to identify with Anita Hill. Personally, I had a friend in undergrad that was thrown out of university housig (literally homeless for a brief period of time) because false sexual assault charges were leveled against him by a vindictive girlfriend. He is hardly alone, but we only ever hear about false allegations when they rise to the level of jail time. We hear about Brian Banks, but we don’t get to hear the far more common story of men like Caleb Warner, who are hung out… Read more »
@ Mike L. “Second, I would argue that men are REGULARLY stalked by women” I have a stalker. She’s 52 and the guys who know her think she’s pretty hot for a 52 year old. They figured she was about 35. She offered to make me another cherry cheesecake. The last time she made one she knew I was sharing it with 3 other people. This time she wanted to know what modifications (in sweetness etc.) . She just went quiet when I told her not to worry because I can’t eat a whole cheesecake by myself. I guess you… Read more »
@JTC wrote: “My original post was on whether Marissa Mayer should credit feminism for her success and that her success was because of feminism.” This is a very rich topic of discussion: To what extent, if any, should successful women attribute their success to feminism? JTC wrote, ” While feminism ‘may’ have played a major role in her getting the position, it wasn’t ‘the’ reason. The reason was her own drive, ambition, and hard work.” To me, this is what enriching dialogue is about. It’s about exploring the possibility and extent to which feminism played a factor in this woman’s… Read more »
If Marissa bought into the “negative”, “chip on your shoulder”, “militant” (all her words) views of Women’s Studies/feminism, she would not be a pregnant, 37 year old, Fortune 500 CEO. She would be wasting her time blaming men in the name of so called male privilege and patriarchy for blocking her from becoming a FT 500 CEO instead of becoming one. Marissa shows the difference between Women’s Studies / feminism and reality. She knows that men aren’t trying to keep her down as Women’s Studies / feminism would have her believe. Good thing for her she knows it’s negative, militant,… Read more »
@Eric Gaby Women’s studies examines a canon of narratives written by men and women in relationship to their gendered bodies. Their experiences are valid. I don’t think it’s our place as men to use one successful woman story to deem a whole body of knowledge–personal accounts and studies of living as a woman in a world where women still hold a disproportionately less amount of positions of power–“bunk.” Surely anyone who’s actually taken the time to read feminist literature would see that a lot of it is body-positive, collaborative with men, and seeks to the oppression of men and women… Read more »
I never said that anyone’s experiences are “aren’t valid.” However, that has nothing to do with facts and reality. Women and men hold the positions they choose based on their life decisions. This woman chose to not take Women’s Studies because she wanted a professional job with the possibility of being a Fortune 500 CEO. It turns out that in the history of the Fortune 500, 0% of the CEO’s majored in Women’s Studies. 0% Ironically, Women’s Studies majors are the first ones to complain that women have “disproportionately less power” when, in fact, they have CHOSEN to not be… Read more »
Eric M. “Women and men hold the positions they choose based on their life decisions.”– You say this as if people have 100% control over what happens to them. Men and women hold positions based on how they experience life, which does include personal decisions, but it also include shitty things that happen to them. For the sake of this thread: poor access to birth control; severe consequences in higher education when women report rape; a 1 in 4 chance they WILL be sexually assaulted. These aren’t “life decision”. These are laws, regulations, and sexual violence that they (women) don’t… Read more »
“You say this as if people have 100% control over what happens to them.” CHOOSING STEM, business, finance and/or law over Women’s Studies, etc. doesn’t “happen” to someone; it’s a choice they make. Marissa could have chosen WS and been one of the countless WS graduates who complain about women not being FT 500 CEOs. Instead she chose STEM and is a pregnant FT 500 CEO. It’s not complicated. “For the sake of this thread: poor access to birth control; severe consequences in higher education when women report rape; a 1 in 4 chance they WILL be sexually assaulted.” That… Read more »
As a father of two daughters and a very pro-female person, the following Marissa Mayer’s statement sums up my sentiments about feminism/Women’s Studies. “I do think that feminism has become in many ways a more negative word. You know, there are amazing opportunities all over the world for women, and I think that there is more good that comes out of positive energy around that than comes out of negative energy.” Feminism / Women’s Studies wastes so much energy blaming, excusing and being negative instead of telling girls and women that they to can get hired as a Fortune 500… Read more »
Access to safety? Are you trying to prove men are a marginalized group? Hell more often men’s safety is ignored and they’re given a gun n told to go fight, JUST for being male. The proof-door swings both ways…
Eric, Riding the coat-tail of your comment: It should be incumbent upon those in women’s studies majors to prove that systemic bias exists. In other words, since it is their claim that a woman doing what Mayers did (play by the excepted rules) will still be held out of key jobs. If that’s their case, then they need to prove it. Instead they simply point to the dearth of women in those spots and broadly claim “disparity = discrimination”. However, when people point out that men are 36% of college grads, all sorts of excuses, disclaimers, and qualifiers come out… Read more »
“Our place as men?”Yuck! What is a man’s place?
Yeah, that is everything that makes women’s studies hostile to men distilled – we are told we don’t have a place in it, that our perspectives are automatically inferior.
That makes it hostile to men.
Yeah. Kaleb is a “women’s studies apologist.”
I’m a “women’s studies apologist” now? See…now you guys are just makin stuff up.
“What is a man’s place?” Certainly not to tell women how to feel about Women’s Studies. That was my point–where’s the fault in that?
Not making stuff up… just reading your comments.
Wow. And you used THAT phrase again.
So what’s a woman’s place, Kaleb? What’s a woman’s place? Can you fly the phrase “It’s not a woman’s place to tell men how to feel about Women’s studies” by some of your feminists friend and ask them what they think of it. Seriously you have email right? I dare you to report back. I dare you.
You’re indoctrinated–that’s my point.
Here’s the irony in this. You’re telling me, a man that who has a degree in women’s studies, that women’s studies is anti-man. I tell you that this isn’t true: I’m a man in women’s studies who, along with many of the other men in my cohort, learned a great deal about masculinity through this field. And although there is some literature that is anti-man, it’s there for the sake of study–not gospel. Most of the literature is collaborative and seeks to equality between genders. I know this because I’ve put in the four years of studying, researching, writing, examining,… Read more »
No the IRONY is that an ethnic male would tell another they aren’t qualified to “vote”. This is an open thread. Please don’t insult all of us with the attitude that because we didn’t major in fem studies thus we CAN’T know what we are talking about. When women’s studies looks at the church, sports, or anything else do they need a seminary degree or a gold medal? No. They can scream “anti-male” with total credibility and you are hypocritically just fine with that. And for the record I have taken 2 feminist studies classes at a university to which… Read more »
P.S. bravo on the elementary kid retort–what are you gonna do next? “Triple dog dare me”?
“Yeah, that is everything that makes women’s studies hostile to men distilled – we are told we don’t have a place in it, that our perspectives are automatically inferior.
That makes it hostile to men.”
Have you been told this in an actual women’s studies class? Have you been told this by Joanna or myself–two women’s studies majors?
“The problem I’m having with your example is that you’re using 3 people you know to generalize a whole study. ” – Kaleb
So three women’s studies majors is too few, but two is more than enough? Hmmm.
I personally believe that there are considerable problems with Area Studies programs, and so does the labor market: http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/19/the-college-majors-that-do-best-in-the-job-market/
But this has a great deal more to do with the skills taught in the program (or lack of skills) than with the content that is being covered. I might come back and discuss this indepth later, but for now I’m a little too disappointed with this whole thread.
@john hall L If it’s any consolation at all, which I’m sure at this point it isn’t, the description of this thread says you two discussed “whether or not Women’s Studies programs in universities are inherently anti-male.” Without reading the original conversation, I would never have assumed you actually said they were anti-male. That aside, of course women’s studies has *some* themes that are anti-male. But don’t quote me on that without allowing me to elaborate. Women’s studies covers a HUGE variety of feminist, sociological, and artistic critiques on gender. No one can generalize all of women’s studies because it… Read more »
Ken: “That aside, of course women’s studies has *some* themes that are anti-male.” Why should they be there in the first place? What’s the point of having material that demeans and insults all men present? This is something I don’t get and why I have a problem with Women’s Studies. Because some themes, as you say, are anti-male. Why should it benefit someone like me when I’m going to be torn to shreds by the likes of Andrea Dworkin and her ilk? Seriously, not worth it. Ken: “Women’s studies covers a HUGE variety of feminist, sociological, and artistic critiques on… Read more »
@Eagle First, name is actually Kaleb, not Ken. America has a dark history of sexism, and those on the receiving end rightfully didn’t have very pleasant things to say about those who have hurt them. Sure, insulting obviously isn’t gonna get anyone anywhere–but this is history. I would hate if literature was omitted simply because it insulted or offended people. It’s there to take in, understand, and analyze…not to preach. Secondly, I am ok reading literature that may be “anti-male.” I may not agree with it, but it’s there for me to question and understand and ask myself “Why is… Read more »
Kaleb: “America has a dark history of sexism, and those on the receiving end rightfully didn’t have very pleasant things to say about those who have hurt them. ” So that included all the men who never harmed them in the first place? Let’s say we had men who have been hurt themselves very badly, traumatized. You think it’s fair they got lumped into those who did hurt them? Accused of benefitting from the oppression of women? Kaleb: “Secondly, I am ok reading literature that may be “anti-male.” I may not agree with it, but it’s there for me to… Read more »
1. If I’m talking specifically about men who hurt women, and women writing about these feelings then why would you ask me if that includes men who never harmed women. Obviously I’m talking about men who hurt women. Moot. 2. “Funny how THEY end up making it personal, doesn’t it?” You mean “isn’t it?” And if you’re asking me, then no…it’s not funny at all. It’s not funny how “THEY” apparently can’t express how topics like abortion, domestic violence, and rape may be personal. And this US versus THEM dichotomy–need I go on? 3. “There’s a major difference between that… Read more »
Should feminists read extremist MRA material, to understand the hurt n pain they feel towards women from the hurt they received?
It’s the inherent one-sidedness. Call men on their S*it, claim “MEN” setup the system to oppress women as if all the generations of women raising the kids allowed for no social agency. To paraphrase the RC church…get’em young keep’em forever.. Women were just as involved setting up social structures as men were…..their needs were different in an age of brute physical power…..in our high energy availability age….the social contract needed to change……the demonization of men however did not need to happen ….. that is crime clearly to be laid at the feet of feminist movement.
Feminist should TOTALLY read MRA material. That’s a wonderful idea because it encourages people to take the effort to understand another group of people.
Great comment, Archy.
Yup. They might find men n women are more similar than they appear…
“and those on the receiving end rightfully didn’t have very pleasant things to say about those who have hurt them” I’ve heard that excuse before. “Sure there were a bunch of crazy nuts in the second wave, sure they were praised as being the leading lights of feminism, but just look at what they were living through!” By that logic any political extremist ever has been completely justified since they’re just a product of their environment and their theories should be taught in college. Not to mention that when I read that line my first thought was that you were… Read more »
@Peter–what’s the problem. Ive read plenty of crazy theorists’ works that I don’t agree with. It’s called studying, no one text is gospel.
@ Kaleb “America has a dark history of sexism, and those on the receiving end rightfully didn’t have very pleasant things to say about those who have hurt them. Sure, insulting obviously isn’t gonna get anyone anywhere–but this is history.” The odd thing is that women commit DV about half the time. About 40% of intimates killed are men killed by women and if I remember correctly, prior to the 1980s, women committed the vast majority of intimate partner murders. I don’t think people have a problem with truthful history being told. The problem is with selective history used to… Read more »
“Why should they be there in the first place? What’s the point of having material that demeans and insults all men present? This is something I don’t get and why I have a problem with Women’s Studies. Because some themes, as you say, are anti-male. Why should it benefit someone like me when I’m going to be torn to shreds by the likes of Andrea Dworkin and her ilk? Seriously, not worth it. ” Eagle, if you are going to study Italian post ww 1 litterature, you cannot avoid to study the nationalist writers from Gabriele Dannunzio to Mussolini. But… Read more »
Oh thank God for you Blurpo.
Also, just because some of a writer’s work is problematic (especially when historical context has changed) doesn’t mean we disregard what is good in the rest of their work.
Joanna: “Also, just because some of a writer’s work is problematic (especially when historical context has changed) doesn’t mean we disregard what is good in the rest of their work.” Okay. We’ll agree to disagree on this point. However, there’s one thing I will not let stand. You may have deleted the rest of your comment, Joanna, where you accused me of saying most guys experiences aren’t as bad as mine (paraphrased) and it shows I have a lack of empathy. But I read the whole thing. Firstly, I never said or implied anything of the sort. Secondly, lack of… Read more »
Actually, I agree with Blurpo if we’re talking studying. But nothing further.
“Oh thank God for you Blurpo”
LoL Joanna, no need to thank god for me 😀
Kaleb: yup here is the Blurpo 😀
Also, just because some of a writer’s work is problematic (especially when historical context has changed) doesn’t mean we disregard what is good in the rest of their work. I’ve seen this line of thought before…but applied rather selectively. Does it apply to everyone or just certain people? And I’m really not trying to be mean here Joanna I’m being serious. On one hand it’s not right to toss all of Dworkin’s material out the window but at the same time it’s fair game to toss not only all MRAs out the window but toss out any and all that… Read more »
Much more intricate an example than I could have put. This is why there’s Blurpo.
It depends on how you treat women’s studies. Women’s studies program is taught like theology where every word is so sacred and you have to find the real hidden meaning in all that literary junk. If it was treated like a discipline of science then all the bad theories had to be purged from the course. After all we do not teach alchemy in the chemistry courses.
Yes, but when you take ethnic studies, nobody sits you down and tells you take Hitler’s crazy ass ideas seriously.
These people aren’t just ‘reading’ these texts – they’re told to take them seriously. That’s a whole different animal.
Ok, if those texts are to be studied as a part of general history of feminism then fine. But when students study mein kampf (if at all) it is made perfectly clear that the purpose of the study is to provide historical context and that the bigotry that is being presented shouldn’t be interpreted as being acceptable in civilised soviety.
@ Blurpo “Eagle, if you are going to study Italian post ww 1 litterature, you cannot avoid to study the nationalist writers from Gabriele Dannunzio to Mussolini. But it doesent mean you agree with them. Same thing if you study German post ww1 litterature and you end up reading Mein Kampf. You dont want the Jews exterminated, or invade Ethiopia.” What if it were a sociology class, which is closer to what women’s studies are rather than a literary class? Wouldn’t you expect (or at least hope) that competing ideas would also be covered? Are competing ideas covered in women’s… Read more »
I remember reading a post on genderratic in which the poster talked about her time in a women’s studies class room in her youth in which a guest speaker was a female lawyer. The female lawyer started railing on about the discrimination of bonus points being given to veterans for job applications while several male vets in the classroom who had missing limbs tried to stoically endure the “thanks” they got for helping their country. Men are no longer willing to suffer in silence. We are kicking up a fuss when things are anti-male. Our own male drive for systemic… Read more »
Kaleb, I actually did take a Gender Studies survey course (I also took an Asian American studies course, so I’ve seen a little bit of the race-side of area studies discourse). From my point of view, most area-studies courses are fundamentally flawed because they are based around one of three schools of analysis: Marxism, the postmodernist school, or critical theory. There are probably some outliers, but between those three schools easily 90% of area studies literature is covered. Each of these schools is subject to school-specific criticisms about their methods of analysis. The most basic criticism, which could easily apply… Read more »
ht tp://radicalhub.com/2011/06/01/guest-post-betty-mclellan/ This is a post by a staff member at the James Cook University, who kept her job after the faculty was told about the post. A colleague of her’s quit over the lack of action against her. http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/article/2012/07/13/346535_news.html Are these the kind of works you talk about as being extremist? Her words clearly say men are rapists, violent, etc, she’s wanting people to look at the “male of the species” without a similar call to examine the female which does enough violence on their own. I can’t help but feel if a male made a similar claim but… Read more »
Do you ever call chicks douchebags? Just wondering.
@IDBY I totally call women douchebags too. My motto: if the douchebag fits.
Feminism is about women’s rights and privilages period! The fact that Feninist go on about ‘Underepresentation’ amoung Fourtine 500 C.E.O.s or in science and engineering, yet never say anything about Female dominated occupations (Why aren’t there more male nurses or H.R. directors?) You never hear N.O.W. complain about the ‘short end of the stick men get in Family Court or the fact that all 19 year old MALES are still required to register with the selective service act (Fail to do so and you can be denied a federally backed student loan or Mortgage) In fact, look at N.O.W.s website… Read more »