The male editor of @goodmenproject poses full-frontal nude and is praised for bravery.If female magazine editor did same, she’d be shamed.
— Hugo Schwyzer (@hugoschwyzer) May 25, 2012
Open Discussion question for Saturday:
Did you see our Editor-in-Chief Noah Brand posing bare as the day he was born for our series on body image?
Well, it’s aroused a lot of excitement… so to speak. People were all a-twitter!
When I saw the above tweet from Hugo Schwyzer, insisting that women wouldn’t be lauded as Noah has been, I couldn’t help but disagree. I countered him by saying that if a not-model-hot EiC decided to go face-to-face with society’s ideals of what a woman “should” look like (during body image week, nonetheless), that most people would praise her, just as we have been Noah. Here’s my tweet back:
@hugoschwyzer @goodmenproject i disagree. If a slightly pudgy female editor did that during body shame week, she’d be lauded by some too.
— joanna (@iproposethis) May 26, 2012
I’m not trying to be mean by calling Noah “slightly pudgy” here… In the piece he says this about himself:
BMI is one of those measurements like IQ. You can know perfectly well that it’s a bullshit metric based on a whole bunch of flawed assumptions, but you still want to know your number. And once you know it, you can’t get away from it. Mine is just over the line where “overweight” turns into “obese”.
If Noah were a woman—let’s call her Noreen—and the EiC of The Good Lady Project, would her every “flaw” be dissected and made fun of? Or would people stand up and applaud her for her stretch marks or saggy breasts or her curvy thighs?
Let’s be honest with ourselves here… If it were one of the female editors here at GMP, would we be considered cheap, or slutty? Would we be picked apart for our flaws the way tabloids do to every poor actress who dares take a swim in Malibu or South Beach? Or would we be held up and respected as brave, the way Noah is?
Is there a double standard here?
And no, I’m not going to test the theory. Sorry, friends!
(But why not? Does that speak to the double standard?)
About Joanna Schroeder
As I don’t do body fascism, so I just don’t get the issues.
As for Hugo and “If female magazine editor did same, she’d be shamed.” that is -1! I would not give a fig and don’t like that use of the generic shaming category! Global pronouncements are so old hat!
I don’t know where he gets his ideas and pronouncements from – but it’s time they grew up! Germain Greer was full frontal nude and splitting and aquatic rodent 40+years ago! Odd that how history changes and people just harp back to old stereotypes and defended positions. So silly.
In many ways Nude Female Editors is so 1970′s – and male editors getting an airing is just homage to those who went before! P^)
But did any female editors actually pose nude?
I mean, what Noah did is actually really NEW. I’m pretty torn here regarding this discussion… I just don’t know when a professional *anything* has posed full-frontal nude for non-pornographic or even visually artistic reasons. We truly have no frame of reference here, it’s pure speculation.
Joanne I do believe that Ms Greer was editor of Suck magazine when she posed. I admit I was not a reader at the time, but I did have to look it all up at University during media studies. … oh and she was also Editing at Oz mag when she posed another time! She’s smiling in the pictures too!
If in doubt – just goggle “Germaine Greer Nude” – and make sure the adult filter is off!
If that is not full frontal and nude …. well I do keep joking about the common language that divides. P^)
Awesome, thanks MH! You always come prepared!
Joanne – It’s an occupational hazard! I have a memory like an elephant – and I have grazed in some strange places! P^)
If you google her photos, you see she’s not “pudgy” at all.
I ahve no idea what “pudgy” has to do with the subject?
Are you being subjective and bringing is some issues? P^)
Its not true at all.
Female nudity and dress codes are more common and relaxed in all areas, the work place, in the street , “gone wild” type antics, celebs etc posing for shoots.
The thing that was unusual about NBs shoot, is that its a male doing it.
HS is very out of touch with reality.
Show me one example of a full-frontal naked professional woman posing for a non-pornographic (i.e. sexual titilation) purpose and we’ll talk.
I don’t even disagree with you, but I believe STRONGLY that Noah has done something entirely new here. Which is why I believe Hugo cannot make the statement the a woman would be treated differently. We simply do not know if she would be.
In a “safe” community that aims to challenge harmful norms (like GMP or the fictional counterpart GLP) I don’t think an editor would experience a lot of shaming and would likely experience a lot of support. Probably there would be some of the usual trolls, but not necessarily. What WOULD be a larger burden for a female editor is the later, real-world ramifications of having nude pictures of yourself on the internet. In my own world of academia, we had a situation in the same department where one male anthropology phd did his dissertation on a nudist, open-sexuality communit,y and one female phd did hers on strippers and burlesque dancers. Both were participatory ethnographies. Guess which one got cautioned over and over about how it would be hard to get a job in the future if when you googled their name, pictures of them naked on the internet came up? Even if the people we interact with directly are supportive and don’t judge us, when we worry about what “other” people will make a fuss about when it comes to nudity, women’s nudity is considered a way bigger threat.
“women’s nudity is considered a way bigger threat.” I wouldn’t say “a way bigger threat”. Female nudity is welcome and celebrated in the abstract. The problem for the individual is she will likely be typecast as one-of-those-women-who-disrobes-for-the-pleasure-of-men.
Conversely, I would say male nudity is either feared, ridiculed or greeted with revulsion. Their really isn’t a positive mold for the male form, save maybe ancient Greece. As for the male participant, I would think many men risk being typecast as one-of-those-men-who-likes-to-show-his-penis-to-women,
Ok you have a point there, I’ve seen older women of varying sizes posing for calenders to raise money, shot in a similar tone to NB’s pictures, but they were not in professional setting.
I’m pretty sure larger women posing nude, is far more common than it is men doing it, however.
D
I’m not sure whether this counts or not.
http://www.fiftywomen.com/what.html
DP this is really interesting. I want to see that film.
See, I think these “reclaim the body beautiful” types of things are quite common for women, but less common for men, and that’s why I’ve said that a woman wouldn’t get *more* flak, because I think we’re more used to this “reclaiming” power thing from women.
As far as professionalism… I mean, if she were editing Newsweek or The Atlantic… Or anything not related to more progressive issues, it might be a problem. But all things equal, if it were the female equivalent to this and her aspirations and interests were equivalent to Noah’s…
I still think there’d be the same amount of fallout, just different fall out.
@ Joanna
“As far as professionalism… I mean, if she were editing Newsweek or The Atlantic… Or anything not related to more progressive issues, it might be a problem. But all things equal, if it were the female equivalent to this and her aspirations and interests were equivalent to Noah’s…
I still think there’d be the same amount of fallout, just different fall out.”
I don’t know. I think women get away with a lot of unprofessional behavior that would have gotten men fired or at least brought a firestorm to the site. After the Inez Sainz incident with the Jets occurred, I started compiling locker room incident stores. Here is Nola Chicks take. She appears to have been in a few men’s locker rooms.
http://chicksinthehuddle.com/2010/09/17/breaking-news-nfl-player-penises-dont-impress-me-much/
If we go to their website we see a section called chicks pics.
http://chicksinthehuddle.com/chick-pics/
They make a lot of sexually suggestive comments about the athletes whom they view in varying stages of undress. I’ve sent a few e-mails to get clarification as to who made those comments. I was trying to determine if anyone of them had locker room access. Some of the comments are:
” Lance Moore flashes a smile. The Chicks yearn for him to flash that six pack, he’s cute from behind, too, and Yo Deuce…Nice ass! ”
How many men would have been able to make similar comments about women they are assumed to have the ability to see nude and still have jobs?
I’ve seen quite a few. Wasn’t there one of Cherie Blair?
Define professional? I have books on fine art nudes that could fill that in? I’ve seen plenty in categories like showing scars on a body from breast cancer surgery, etc. Nudism also has a lot of full frontal women going about their business without sexualizing it.
Depends on which groups or communities we’re talking about. Schwyzer is looking at the community here at GMP and saying that women wouldn’t get a fair shake. But the first one to comment on Noah’s bravery was Ozymandias who is a woman and something towards the feminist side. So what Schwyzer is actually lamenting is the dearth of male voices criticizing Noah for his showin’ tail.
But if you went out on the street with Noah’s pictures and showed random women, they would probably comment on Noah’s hairy ass first and foremost. You’d hear all sorts of criticisms, no doubt. No offense to Noah’s hairy ass, but I’m just saying…which realm are we looking at to discuss double standards?
I think what happens when a man shows everything like this is that we feel that his ego is more at stake – moreso than a woman’s might be. Whether that is true or not is up for debate. But women posing nude cannot be viewed anymore as being brave because it has become normalized. We’ve seen many women posing nude to the point that now we’re just comparing what’s being posed.
I want to complain to the trading standards. I missed the original article first time, and only saw it via this one, so I’m sure this has already been said many a time, but full frontal? That’s not full frontal, I can barely see so much as a moob. C’mon Noah, get yer salami and spuds on the table, then we’ll talk.
Anyway, on the serious point, you’re completely right Joanna and Hugo is completely wrong. The photo here is actually beautifully posed and beautifully pitched, it is just a lovely photo and makes Noah look like a lovely guy.
A female editor of similar age and similarly normal physique would certanly get praise from me at least.
Worth remembering the movie Calendar Girls (Brit film, not sure if you’ll know it) which saw lots of well-known, middle aged actresses strip off into poses like that and they were all applauded for it exactly as you suggest. Indeed the whole amater charity pin-up calendar craze which the film was about generated similar reactions.
Oh you need to go to the second page of the actual article by Noah. A link is embedded.
There is full frontal.
That’s a really interesting comment, because it’s the first time it occurred to me that some of those commenters who praised Noah so effusively only saw the one picture before the jump, where he was nude, but you couldn’t see so much as a butt crack or nipple, much less his penis. The other pics do show such details, albeit in a sexually inert state (meaning no hint of arousal). How sexy could he get away with looking before he stopped looking brave and sexy for being vulnerable?
Ah… just saw the full set – take back previous joke, and add to the other comments, well done Noah. And I stand by my point that any woman doing similarly would probably make a lot of friends
Loved Noah’s pics, but one of my first thoughts was that if a middle aged, somewhat overweight woman tried the same thing, she’d be reviled and mocked. And she certainly wouldn’t get many encouraging comments from men praising her attractiveness, as Noah did from women.
There are actually fetishes concerning mature or heavy women. I think most of the criticism concerning her appearance would come from other women. She may get compliments on her appearance from men. Men would probably question her character more. It doesn’t make either thing right.
Right on J.A.. Most critical comments on women,s bodies I hear(like about 80% or so) are made by other women! Most guys will either be interested or not. Young men who haven’t established theirown preferences will tend to follow what the media spoon feeds them in relationship ti their “Ideal” woman. I know plenty of older men however, who prefer’larger’ women or women with small brests ,or tall skiny women.or,well, you get the concept, right?
Of course she would; it would be a brave, feminist act. You guys forgot about that feminists that posed nude or something ?
Joanna, one thing that is interesting is your last two lines:
As one of the other females higher-ups here, I feel compelled to respond to this thread. And I’ll start by saying “No,” I am not going to test the theory either.
And it’s very difficult for me to separate out in my mind whether I think I would be shamed for doing it (which I absolutely 100% think I would) or whether some other nameless, faceless “other woman” would be shamed if she did it.
My first reaction is “well, she wouldn’t be shamed if she was attractive enough.” On the other hand, if she was too attractive, that would have a whole ‘nother set of problems – for one, it would be seen as completely unprofessional. Because a woman who was too attractive would suddenly become sexual. And that’s where I think the most interesting part of this conversation is.
What I think Hugo was getting at is that females are shamed quite a bit for both their looks and their wardrobe choices. Certainly in my life – as someone who has been both hot and not – I’ve felt that I’ve been shamed for both being too sexy and not sexy enough. This is not a complaint, and not something I’m blaming men for – but that’s why I personally don’t think I could pull it off no matter what side of the hot/not I was on.
But what was the reaction to Joanna’s bikini pic in her and Julie’s post Where’s the Sex? I don’t see any shaming there; indeed no discussion of Joanna’s appearance at all.
I think, rather, that the issue of context is what accounts for the experiences (or lack thereof) of being shamed for one’s body image. I do believe that in a similar context neither Joanna nor you would be shamed by people within this community for making the same post. There may be other contexts where you would be, and I have no doubt that pictures of Noah presented outside of this context would likewise have a more mixed response.
I would suggest that while men aren’t necessarily shamed for their wardrobes, they are in fact shamed for their bodies. Men have negative body images just as pervasive as do women. They sacrifice at the alter of the dieting industry, they battle with eating disorders, they suffer from clinical depression. While our discussion of the problem may be the near-exclusive province of women, the problem itself most certainly is not.
Actually — Joanna’s picture is a great example of that line I’m thinking of — she’s really attractive, but not, in this particular picture, overtly sexy. It’s just a family picture where she happens to be wearing a bikini.
With men — it’s part of Good Men Project’s whole reason for being — to make these things easier to talk about it. To get rid of the shame around a whole bunch of issues, by allowing people to “reveal” themselves in many ways. To allow the truths to be told in an environment that, on the whole, supports that truth-telling. Whether it is in words or pictures. I certainly would never mean to imply that men’s body issues were not as important as women’s, but I don’t think they get talked about as much as woman’s do. That is part of what we’re trying to change.
I will also say that when I’ve *written* about things that have revealed parts of myself that I was scared to reveal, I felt very much supported by the community. And it was both liberating to me and helpful to others to start the conversation about things that are difficult to talk about.
However the picture was posted explicitly to draw attention to her body, and to tease out how people might react to seeing a picture of her “scantily clad” and whether they would still take her seriously.
I think the GMP community, inasmuch as it focuses on gender issues from a male perspective, is a fairly safe place for the type of bravery Noah has put on display and I don’t doubt for a moment that you would receive a similar reaction. Sure, the moderators will likely need to swat an errant troll or two, but on the whole I think people would be just as respectful of a woman doing the same thing.
I do wonder, however, whether it might need to be an “average” female body. If Joanna were to post nude pictures, does her being young and attractive invite a questioning of her motives or a more critical response because she would be seen to be fishing for complements? Is there an implicit assumption of exhibitionism when someone conventionally attractive does it, as opposed to someone exposing their vulnerability?
Cornelius, this is a good observation.
I posted that bikini shot in direct reaction to Charlie Capen’s briefs shot on the piece Julie and I were responding to. Reason being, I was pretty shocked that nobody at GMP had called out Charlie for posting his body in the piece. MInd you, Charlie is young and has the ideal “Hollywood” body type. I wanted to see if I’d get called out for it.
http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/why-wont-my-wife-have-sex-with-me/
My big flub was in drawing attention to the reason why I had posted it. Therefore anybody who was going to say something about me wanting flattery, or me using a bikini shot to draw page views , held their tongue because nobody had said the same to Charlie… Or maybe nobody thought Charlie or I were showing off or being page view-whores.
However, in Charlie’s original version of “Why Won’t My WIfe Have Sex With Me” he did get a lot of hell for his briefs-shot. http://www.howtobeadad.com/2011/2906/wife-sex-me
So I think the body difference is key. Charlie’s showing off, Noah’s breaking taboo.
Also, Charlie didn’t show his genitals (or, as my kids say, “pee-nine”). That makes for a big distinction between Noah’s pics and Charlie’s.
Only thing I wondered was, is that a tattoo? If so what is it?
I saw Noahs article, saw both pages, and didn’t care he was naked or clothed. I thought he was quite brave, but seeing a man or woman naked doesn’t bother me. I wouldn’t care either way if you, or another female were stark naked, just doesn’t phase me, I’d still read the article.
I think an article with a nude female might get a wide variety of attention, some will be admiring her looks and thinking various things, others might question her intentions. I’m not sure it’d be much different from Noahs article cept maybe more comments on sexual attraction.
I’ve seen women post nudes of themselves with larger bodies and generally got a good response, it just depends WHERE you post it. If Noah posted this somewhere else he’d probably cop a hell of a lot of men and women giving him shit over it, same as a woman with similar body type would.
There is no shortage of women who would give a man or woman shit about their looks, body, weight, etc. Hugo seems to experience life quite differently from me, I can understand what he is trying to do but I think he’s dead wrong in this case. It even looks like an attempt to detract from the message Noah was trying to say, and tbh actually quite offensive.
Piglet and the Chinese character for “ha ha, I’ll never know what this actually means.”
Okay, it’s quite a bit distorted (women: get your abdominal tattoos after you’ve had your babies) but from what I can make out I think it’s simply the word 德 (De or Te in its English transliteration).
No one will object to a picture of a young, conventionally attractive woman in a bikini.
A picture of a pudgy woman in a bikini would have gotten a completely different reaction.
Yeah, there’s definitely a difference, Sarah.
that’s why I call into question the different reactions from Charlie’s briefs shot to Noah’s nude shots.
And we need to ask ourselves if we feel differently about this photo of Charlie Capen (seriously folks, take a look, he is wearing briefs so don’t stress) http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/why-wont-my-wife-have-sex-with-me/ because he fits the “male physical ideal”…
But Charlie got a TON of flak for this over on his page, http://www.HowToBeADad.com — people were upset that he made his body cheap, or was showing off, or whatever else.
What’s the difference here?
My theory is that the difference isn’t really about “body acceptance” being the attractive thing. Charlie accepted his body, but is closer to the ideal of what’s attractive, so it was perceived as showing off or exhibitionistic, or whatever. Noah is accepting his body, while presenting it in a more or less neutered state. If the series included one showing him at peace with a non-porn quality erection, I think he would have been praised less, even if it was just one more example of his journey to self-acceptance and how his lovers see him.
The sexiest thing that Noah revealed wasn’t his body, but the person inside it, and I’m guessing most of the women who complimented him for it have been paying attention to the revealed *person* for a while now, through his writing. To me, this is an example of how knowing and liking a person can make their body attractive, even when it doesn’t fit the ideal or seem likely to arouse a random person shown nude pictures of it. This is a *good* thing, something that gives hope to *all* people who aren’t happy with their bodies and still yearn to be attractive and sexy to someone else. Happily, this not a gender-specific tendency. Many women who aren’t close to the ideal of conventionally sexy bodies are still *physically* attractive and sexy to men who like them. They (women) seem to have a harder time believing it, though.
“If the series included one showing him at peace with a non-porn quality erection, I think he would have been praised less, even if it was just one more example of his journey to self-acceptance and how his lovers see him.”
And this is sort of where I think there’s a bit of a difference…you brought up how he was in a “more or less neutered state” because he didn’t have an erection in any of the photos. When women take nude photos, though, there isn’t any sort of “neutered state.” I think it’s pretty much always perceived as sexual. I mean by society at large…obviously there are plenty of people out there who can recognize a beautiful photo of a nude woman without making it sexual.
I agree, Heather, and stopped and started a couple paragraphs trying to make that point before finally giving up because I couldn’t figure out how to phrase it. But I agree. It’s a biological thing, not a voluntary thing, but nude women lack any prominent indicator (such as a photo would reveal) about whether they’re aroused or not. I think it’s interesting that the default perception of a nude woman is sexual, but since this discussion is about a non-hypothetical nude man, I’m more interested (at the moment) in whether a series such as Noah’s is being considered sexy by some because it’s overtly sexual, or because it’s overtly asexual. I suspect the latter, that he would have come under heavy criticism if it was about “accepting my aroused body, even if it doesn’t look like porn bodies”.
If we set aside for the moment how a woman doing the same thing would be received — why was Noah received the way he was? Does it say anything about whether male arousal can be seen as sexy by women? Noseriouslywhatabouttehman?
@ Lisa Hickey
“as someone who has been both hot and not”
What? When have you not been hot? I don’t believe it.
Hah! You’ll have to trust me on that one. But thanks.
Noah may not get a lot of flak because many guys avoid seeing other men full frontal, deny looking at pictures of men full frontal and don’t like to comment on naked guys.
Yes.
No worries, I’ve already got your pics from the Hampshire archives department.
Probably, although I suspect it may have more to do with your respective relationship statuses, your social circles, and your family. I, for one, would have no problem posing nude except that I know the decision to do so would impact my family and work colleagues in a way entirely outside of my control. While many of us regulate our self-expression because we’re afraid of how others may judge us, even those of us who don’t give two shits about the mean-spirited opinions of others still might take into consideration the collateral damage. I daresay if Noah was married with two pre-teen kids he might have made a somewhat different calculation.
Cornelius!!!! For the record, folks, Corn is JOKING!
And I agree about the decision to pose nude impacting family. Before I had kids I posed topless for an album cover (no, I’m not saying the name of the band). Now I wouldn’t. Not because my husband would be mad, but because I have kids and because my husband would be skeeved. He doesn’t CONTROL me, but his feelings matter to me.
Does that make some sense.
Sorry, forgot the “j/k” note at the bottom there. And I preemptively apologize to the archivist at Hampshire College for any additional burden my joke may have caused.
Hahaha!
Joanna, that’s my reason as well. My husband does not own me, but I want to respect the feeling that he doesn’t want to share his lady with the entire Interwebs. I’m not single anymore, the decision would impact more than just me (which is what committed relationships are all about).
I have four kids, and it’s been interesting to see my kids reaction to the types of things I’m always talking about in public here. After all, when I share something on Facebook, and our mutual friends share things, all of a sudden I’m popping up in my kids facebook streams with the oddest of posts. One of my very reserved daughters accidentally clicked the like button on “My First Playboy” — and was mortified when her friends called her out on it. However, in the end, that very simple action led to a really good conversation between me and her about why we talk about these things, what the impact on her might be, how she deals with it, how me and her can be respectful of each others actions but allow freedom for the other person — discussions we might not have had otherwise.
I considered following Noah’s lead. I would probably do it for sufficient pageviews.
I don’t really object to being seen naked. So far, I don’t think there are any naked pictures of me in public places, but they are out there. Guys like Noah haven’t always been so encouraged to see themselves as beautiful or desirable, so doing this, for him, means something different than it would for me, a man of transgender experience, and a some-time exhibitionist of long standing.
On one hand, I’m not supposed to show my body for the same, shaming reasons as any adult: we’re supposed to wear clothes. If you don’t know that, you don’t know the first thing about society, and that’s shameful. That’s the message. If you take off your clothes, you’ve opened yourself up to judgment.
But when Noah told me he was going to take it all off for the GMP, like I said, I wanted to do the same. If I was dating a sexy photographer, it might be different. As it is, I’m happy with my body and think it’s sexy, and I hope Noah feels the same way about his body. I hope you think your body is sexy, gentle reader. If the answer is, not yet, there’s still hope for you. Stick around and talk to us.
I think Lisa has a great point. There is absolutely a double standard.
Now, while it gives me hope that the woman in Glamour magazine, Lizzie Miller (you no doubt remember this photo: http://c1feelgoodstylecom.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/files/2011/11/lizzie-miller.jpg) and the magazine were applauded for representing “real women”… But still.
Even if we were to take whoever was People’s Sexiest Man of the year posing nude, he would still probably be applauded as well for owning his body issues. If we took People’s Sexiest Woman, I think we would get a lot of flack because of people percieving it being a little p0rny in here.
I think the situation might be different if sexy men were used just as much as bikini babes to sell things.
A friend and I were talking about this… Women are sometimes considered the weaker species, so when a man owns up to his body he is strong, but when a women poses nude, she’s seen as “selling out” to Playboy.
HUGE double standard. As much as I like the idea, I’m not volunteering to test the theory either.
I doubt there is a “HUGE” double standard, seeing as women have already being doing similar fat / body acceptance campaigns for years now.
Right, it’s like if you have a boy would you react to him negatively for reading porn. If you had a daughter would you react negatively to her doing porn. If it’s ok for your son to look at, it should be ok for your daughter to perform in.
So, you really see no difference between seeing something and doing that thing?
Do you really not see the difference between your son watching the movie “Swimming with Sharks” and your daughter actually swimming with sharks?
The actualy parallel would be, “If it’s ok for your son to look at, it should be ok for your daughter to look at it.”
What’s wrong with doing porn? If it is ok for men to consume the images of women, I don’t see why people should think the women doing it shouldn’t be doing it. In fact, I’d think the women in porn should maybe be far more honored then they are. Men love watching women naked, then it should be a HUGE deal to get to do it. Or is there something shameful about being naked and having sex on tape for the consumption of millions?
I guess I just see a double standard there is all…
Who said they shouldn’t be doing it?
I have read men criticized for watching porn hundreds (more likely thousands) of times more than women have been criticized for participating in it. Now, THAT’s a double standard.
“Or is there something shameful about being naked and having sex on tape for the consumption of millions?”
That’s an individual choice. Evidently, many women (and men) think not. Much to the delight of their viewers.
Not shameful, maybe, it pretty gross in my book. Sorry, but the idea of having sex on camera for millions of men to jack off in front of … The thought of a daughter of mine doing that…. Well, it disgusts me. I’m just being honest, maybe I need my consciousness raised on this issue.
And I have seen women called sluts, low lifes and tramps for doing porn and sex work. Seems as if we each have heard different shaming language for both sides of the fence. Personally, I don’t see anything wrong with people going into sex work or people participating in sexual pleasure. I don’t have much problem with porn.
Would you feel good about your daughter going into it as a career?
There is far more evidence for my experience of men being criticized than yours of women being criticized. For instance, right here there have been many comments (probably into the hundreds or even thousands at this point), present company not excluded, that have harshly criticized men for viewing porn. Where is the equivalent criticism of women for viewing or appearing in it? You don’t see it. And, even if there is a random comment or two, there are hundreds or thousands more criticizing men.
“Would you feel good about your daughter going into it as a career?”
I wouldn’t feel good about my daughter OR SON doing that as a career or even a hobby. You do know that men appear in those movies too.
However, there are other things I wouldn’t feel good about my kids doing either.
“Where is the equivalent criticism of women for viewing or appearing in it?”
That’s because it’s something that is so flipping taboo (a woman watching porn) that it’s not talked about. And when it is talked about, women who watch porn are almost seen as less-womanly. As if by watching porn you’re giving up part of what makes you a woman. As for criticism of women appearing in porn? Well heck that’s everywhere…our society criticises anyone in the sex industry, particularly women.
“That’s because it’s something that is so flipping taboo (a woman watching porn) that it’s not talked about.”
According to whom? Based on what evidence? There is no evidence of that that I have seen.
You day criticism of women in porn is everywhere? Are you claiming that it’s more abundant than criticism of men viewing it? If there is any truth to that, you would be able to point to hundreds of examples among the thousands of comments on porn here. I doubt of you can but please go right ahead.
Why Not?
Not a stable career, low-paying, short-lived, destroys any sense of privacy, etc. There really isn’t a good reason TO do it.
Then why buy it? There is supply and demand. People seem to want it. If they want it so badly, why not pay more, create safter working enviornments, career lines (direction, production) and respect the art? Odd that hasn’t happened.
How odd can it be when thousands and thousands of people do it for free, at their homes and elsewhere, and post it on the Internet for people to watch at no cost?
How can there possibly be enough money for all that stuff when other people are doing about the same thing and posting it for free viewing?
“Then why buy it? There is supply and demand. People seem to want it. If they want it so badly, why not pay more, create safter working enviornments, career lines (direction, production) and respect the art? Odd that hasn’t happened.”
You have high hopes if you think all the business owners will provide safer conditions simply because they pay their workers more, the sex workers need to start a union and rally to get rights, and existing rights enforced. Do you think paying more for products makes it safer? Distributors, producers are the ones that pocket the cash, the stars will probably be paid the same and there’s nothing to guarantee safety. The only ones it could affect are the women and men who run their own porn websites or those lucky enough to have a decent boss/producer/etc.
I’ve seen parents react the other way also. They don’t believe that their daughters have strong sexual urges so they don’t worry about the watching movies or shows with naked men in them, but they’ll censor what their sons see. Porn would be a little different as the purpose is sexual. I think part of the concern would be a fear that their daughter is somehow not normal if she looks at porn.
No double standard.
Look at this British TV program. It is all about women loving their bodies the way they are, with a nude photo shoot / catwalk at the end.
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/how-to-look-good-naked
Here is a quote from this weeks episode.
“When Gok first met mum-of-three Jeannie she hated her stretch marks and was envious of her twin sister’s body. Hiding under old maternity clothes and her sister’s cast-offs, Jeannie was lacking in style as well as confidence. But after a few Gok tricks both girls were confident enough to pose in a shop window and walk down the catwalk naked.”
This is exactly what Noah did, and these women are being applauded for it.
Mike I was just reading this thread and was thinking Gok Wan and his “How to Look Good Naked”
by 4oDLifestyle.
I do think that there is a whole shit load of assumption about what people think – will think – how they will react – what they will say… and yet time and time again those views have been blown out of the water!
I keep wondering why Gok and his ways have not made it over the Atlantic? Is it fear from Broadcasters or fear from the audience?
One of my favourite episodes is when he works with a woman who is blind – how does she see the world and her body? Fascinating to watch! – http://www.youtube.com/show?p=9bsj0e3Kh0Y
It’s quite comical when he lines up a group of 50 something women for her to grope and find out what middle aged women are like in the flesh!
It’s magic!
Alrighty, so I thought about this…and I read some of the comments…and here’s what I’m thinking…if a larger woman had done this, she’d have gotten a bunch of praise in the same vein Noah did. There’d have been a lot of – you look beautiful just the way you are, and be proud of your body, etc. However, you can bet your behind there’d have also been a whole lot of other comments talking about how fat chicks shouldn’t take nude photos, etc. It’s not that people wouldn’t have praised her; it’s that people would have also been highly critical.
I also think our society associates sex with a woman’s body more than a man’s. I mean, a bunch of the comments/articles surrounding the Time cover with the woman breastfeeding her two-year-old were about how weirdly sexual it was. Except, it wasn’t sexual…the kid was 2…and yet when we see it we place was this weird sexual element onto it.
A nude man, however, doesn’t have the same sexual connotations, necessarily. I mean, just think about the different ways we consider men’s and women’s bathing suits. A man in a speedo is either no-big-deal, or done for comic effect (usually due to him being a bit chubby), whereas a woman in a bikini is either sexual, or done for comic effect (usually due to her being a bit chubby). So with all that, I also definitely think that there’s more of a worry about being perceived as slutty if a woman were to put up nude photos.
I think you’re comparing the reaction to Noah in a very specific environment (GMP, which is feminist-friendly and highly moderated) to the reaction you’d expect a woman to get any ol’ where on the Internet. I don’t think that’s a fair comparison.
Not in America. The standard reaction is it’s either gross, a show-off, or “That guy must be European”, because American dudes don’t wear speedos to the beach.
That I agree with, though I think the potential “slut” ramifications would be as bad or worse from how other women would perceive them, not just what men would say or think. For that matter, even without bringing sluttiness into it, it seems to me that Noah (or any man doing the same) risks more to his reputation with women by doing this than he does to his reputation with men.
I’m old enough to remember when nudity wasn’t everywhere and that made seeing a woman’s naked body a VERY exciting thing for a young guy. There wasn’t even very much nudity in magazines. Remember the stories about boys getting all excited looking at catalogues showing women in their underwear? So I think we’ve lost something in today’s world.
Not to say I didn’t hit the nude beaches as an adult, but I do remember being on one such beach in California, and the most exciting woman on the beach was wearing a rather sexy item of negligee.
To be honest, nowadays I wouldn’t even blink after seeing a naked women parade or something. I certainly haven’t seen it all, but well… it’s hard to surprise me.
What has been seen…
“The male editor of @goodmenproject poses full-frontal nude and is praised for bravery.If female magazine editor did same, she’d be shamed.
— Hugo Schwyzer (@hugoschwyzer) May 25, 2012
Hogwash, to put it mildly. Praised by whom? Shamed by whom?
I haven’t missed those wacko ideas.
Praised by whom? Not me. If it were a female, I wouldn’t have felt the need to avert my eyes. Seeing naked or partially naked men is not my cup of tea. I normally try to avoid it at all costs.
I personally would much, much, much (add another 1000 much’s) prefer seeing a full frontal of a female, , than Noah or any other man on the planet. I give GMP the green light to post the same of any females on or off staff.
You are protesting a lot there Eric – needlessly, its perfectly fine to like or be neutral about looking at naked male bodies.
You know Eric, I think attitudes like yours are part of the point Noah was highlighting. There is nothing wrong with the male form -it shouldn’t invoke fears of homosexuality from men who feel a sudden need to reassure themselves and their peers of their staunch heterosexuality. Nor should it draw shouts of revulsion from women who either wish to assert their immunity to external arousal stimulus as the gatekeepers of sex or assume and fear the unrestrained sexuality of men represented in his naked form.
Its the human body. It just is. Nothing more nothing less.
“You know Eric, I think attitudes like yours are part of the point Noah was highlighting. There is nothing wrong with the male form -it shouldn’t invoke fears of homosexuality from men who feel a sudden need to reassure themselves and their peers of their staunch heterosexuality.”
Let me break this down further. Take this very literally: I don’t enjoy seeing naked men. Not my thing. It’s really that simple. It’s not fear, not reassurance of heterosexuality, or any such. If that’s your thing, go right ahead; more power to you.
I personally prefer the female form and make no apologies for it.
There is a short list of things I hate or seriously dislike. Beets is one. I truly hate them. But, I also know that some people love them. Fine. No problem. If you love them, eat them. Enjoy them. More power to you. Not mad at you.
I won’t crticize you for loving them. And, if you disapprove of my hating them, if you judge me for hating them, please know that I won’t be the least bit troubled, but I also could not possibly care less.
It’s the same with looking at naked men. Sorry, not my thing. If you enjoy it, fine. No problem. Do your thing. Enjoy. More power to you. Not mad at you.
I won’t crticize you for enjoying it. And, if you disapprove of my aversion, if you judge me for wanting to avoide it, please know that I won’t be the least bit troubled, but I also could not possibly care less.
Its just quite insulting, to allege that there is something about all our bodies that’s a legitimate reason for aversion.
Yeah I don’t think anyone is suggesting you need to enjoy it. Heck, I don’t find looking at nude men particularly enjoyable. It just doesn’t do it for me. But I’m not disgusted by it or really hate it. It’s a human body, and it’s wrong to assume that there’s anything inherently aversion-worthy to a nude human being. Actually, it’s quite counter-logical. We evolved as completely nude…biologically speaking there’s no reason to find a nude human body hateful.
“Yeah I don’t think anyone is suggesting you need to enjoy it.”
Some do seem to be suggesting that male bodies are just as attractive, whatever, whatever.
“But I’m not disgusted by it or really hate it. It’s a human body, and it’s wrong to assume that there’s anything inherently aversion-worthy to a nude human being.”
Wrong? Wrong for whom? According to whose moral standard? What other right and wrongs are dictated by this standard?
Look, whatever moral standard that is, and whoever abides by it can look at naked men as much as they wish. I’m not criticizing you (or anyone else) for liking/loving/not caring one way or another about looking at naked men. I have no authority (nor will I try to exercise authority I don’t have) to dictate right and wrong to others, nor tell what they should and should not want or enjoy. So, I appreciate the same consideration coming back my way.
“We evolved as completely nude…”
Why past tense? We aren’t nude now. Usually. Why not? Unless you are arguing that the evolution process has ceased.
“Some do seem to be suggesting that male bodies are just as attractive, whatever, whatever.”
They are…but so you’re not wired to find them attractive. That’s fine. Again, no one is arguing that you should be. What I’m saying is there’s no biological reason to find male bodies particularly aversion-worthy.
“Wrong? Wrong for whom? According to whose moral standard? What other right and wrongs are dictated by this standard?”
I didn’t mean morally wrong, I meant inaccurate. We are a social species, we’d be totally screwed if we evolved to have an aversion to each other’s bodies…and not just with regards to sex. Plus, there’s no reason to have evolved to have an aversion to naked bodies. It is not advantageous in any way. Not to mention, when you look at all of our closest primate ancestors, they all have no problem with each other’s bodies, regardless of biological sex.
“Why past tense? We aren’t nude now. Usually. Why not? Unless you are arguing that the evolution process has ceased.”
We didn’t evolve clothes. We created clothes, and clothes are all about personal expression (or expressing social identity) and, more practically, protection from the environment. But modesty and customs surrounding how much of a person’s body is exposed and which bits are permissible to be exposed are purely cultural creations.
Which is why I go back to saying, anyone’s aversion to seeing a person (male or female) nude is a cultural construct. It doesn’t mean you can just turn it off and suddenly be totally fine seeing nude people. But it does mean that it doesn’t have a biological origin.
“What I’m saying is there’s no biological reason to find male bodies particularly aversion-worthy.”
I never used the term “aversion” or “aversion-worthy.” So, arguing on that basis is a strawman.
“I didn’t mean morally wrong, I meant inaccurate. We are a social species, we’d be totally screwed if we evolved to have an aversion to each other’s bodies…and not just with regards to sex.”
Not wanting to be naked with another man has nothing to do with moving our species ahead. We don’t procreate with each other. There is no need to be naked with other men. We have evolved (or were created) to be naked with and hence procreate with women.
“Plus, there’s no reason to have evolved to have an aversion to naked bodies. It is not advantageous in any way.”
There is no advantage to be naked with other men. There is a clear advantage to be naked with women. Biologically speaking.
“Not to mention, when you look at all of our closest primate ancestors, they all have no problem with each other’s bodies, regardless of biological sex.”
Primates don’t know what clothes are, humans do.
“Which is why I go back to saying, anyone’s aversion to seeing a person (male or female) nude is a cultural construct.” Perhaps you can show that to be true of primates but not humans.
You keep using the word aversion, which you inserted into the conversation, and are arguing on that basis, as if I used it. However you wish to phrase it, I enjoy visiting with my 105 year old great-grandma in her house-coat rather than butt-nekkid. Anyone who feels differently is free to visit with their great-grandma in the buff. It’s the same with my buddies. Love hanging out watching the game or whatever, but I don’t want to be naked with them. It’s not at all complicated.
“Not wanting to be naked with another man has nothing to do with moving our species ahead. We don’t procreate with each other. There is no need to be naked with other men. We have evolved (or were created) to be naked with and hence procreate with women”
There it is, right there. We have an automatic association with nudity and sex. Its that perception that arouses (no pun intended) fears of homosexuality in straight men and contributes to the toxic public attitude towards the male form.
“There it is, right there. We have an automatic association with nudity and sex.”
So, if my wife learned that I was hanging out with other women naked, she would have no reason to suspect anything sexual was going on?
The only people I hang out with naked are those I wish to have sex with. I don’t hang out naked with my mother, grandmother, or great-grandmother – having nothing to do with fear of homosexuality.
@Eric: You said this right here, “I won’t crticize you for enjoying it. And, if you disapprove of my aversion, if you judge me for wanting to avoide it, please know that I won’t be the least bit troubled, but I also could not possibly care less.”
Mate, you used the word aversion…that’s why I used it.
Secondly, basically I’ll echo what Random_Stranger said, which is that you keep associating nudity with sex, but being nude isn’t just about sex. A naked human body is not always a sexual body. That’s why you’ve got cultures where women walk around topless. They’re not highly sexual cultures or whatever…it’s just that those cultures haven’t associated nudity and sex in the same way we have.
You took my statement out of context. I stated, “I wouldn’t have felt the need to avert my eyes.” Aversion was used as the act of averting. Regardless, you are simply not going to convince me to want to hang out with naked men.
Regarding your statement, “you keep associating nudity with sex”, if you read the various comments, you will see that is baseless. I didn’t say anything about sex other than in response to you and others.
Lastly, I have been in plenty of locker rooms, and necessary nudity in that context is reasonable, but there is no reason for me to be in the company of naked men for any other reason, and I don’t plan to, no matter how much some of you seem to want to convince me to do. Not happening.
If Kate Upton was guest editor and appeared nude here on GMP, you would have a million views!
All you all realize that while this IS what has lately been referred to as “the full monty” it is NOT full frontal nudity, right? He’s fully naked, but his fully naked front is not fully facing the camera, which would be “full frontal”. No visible genitalia, no full frontal. Thus, I think you’re all ridiculous. Tempest, meet teapot.
Think you need to hit the NSFW link on the article..
Well the easy way to prove it is to actually do it…and I don’t think anyone would actually care.
I have to add my voice and say that I don’t think many people would care.
For the record, a few men that I know really disagree with what Noah did and think it’s very distasteful. They wouldn’t come comment on it, because they don’t feel the need to put negativity into the Internet when someone’s trying to do something good. So that dissent is out there, they just aren’t public.