In the BeastTV clip below, Christopher Ryan explores the idea of what creates jealousy in relationships.
He has some interesting theories, perhaps central being that in our society we live in the myth that relationships are zero-sum, that if your partner has a romantic sexual relationship with someone else, it means that your romantic and/or sexual relationship is diminished.
Today’s Open Discussion:
What do you think of Christopher Ryan’s views on jealousy?
Where do you think jealousy comes from? Is it healthy? How do you, in your relationships, handle the issue of jealousy?
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During limerance, I think we are inclined to be monogamous, and also inclined to be jealous of the person we’ve developed feelings for. Note that I didn’t say persons. I can parse this a little more based on my own experience. I was quite capable of having sex with other people when limerant with another, but was not capable of developing limerant feelings for a second person. But I didn’t care whether I continued with the second person, at all. In a couple of cases the second person became limerant with me, however. They either had a long term person,… Read more »
In the context of evolution, jealousy in sexual relationship is an important emotion that helped our ancestors to cope with a host of real reproductive threats. The pathological view of jealousy ignores the fact that it is an important defence designed to thwart a real threat.
Are you all-assertion or do you have some evidence to back those statements?
The book “The Dangerous Passion:Why Jealousy is as Necessary as Love or Sex,” by David M. Buss, provides the necessary evidence to support my assertions.
Limerance is a problem. Polly doesn’t work for me because either I or and/one of my outside relationships fall in love. If sex doesn’t lead to this on my part, I lose interest.
Some people don’t get limerant, according to research. I’m glad I’m not one of them.
PS It’s odd, but some therapists act as though limerance is a problem. I disagree (thinking that they’re likely cognitive-behavioral mechanoids.)
The therapists I’ve spoken with don’t think limerance is a problem – they think our ignorance of it is a problem. We enter a relationship, the hormones are flowing, the sex is hot and heavy and exciting, we’re flush with affection for our partners…. and then those heady feelings fade and we think something must be wrong with the relationship. But why do you believe a polyamorous relationship can’t include limerance? The show Polyamory: Married and Dating on Showtime presents one example of polyamory where there are affectionate bonds between multiple people. I presume there was a fair amount of… Read more »
If jealousy is “fear of loss” then what am I losing if my partner has sex with another person? I don’t need exclusive access to her vagina, nor to her affections. Perhaps I might be jealous if I don’t feel like her priority but I’m not even sure about that.
I feel the same way, despite being in a totally monogamous relationship. Which is odd, I guess. I think I get both sides. Not the jealousy side, but the monogamy side and the polyamorous side.
I don’t think love is a zero-sum game, but time and attention certainly are. You only have so much time and attention to give to any one person. I’ll get away from the restaurant analogy, and just think aboutmthe practicalities. As it is, I see my boyfriend a couple nights a week and on weekends (we don’t live together). Most of his time is dedicated to work and other obligations to his friends and family. Add a couple other girlfriends in there, and how much time could he really give to me? Will he be around enough to meet my… Read more »
There are a lot of assumptions in there that I’m not competent to address, however there is a giant frame that underlies your skepticism. Your concerns are based on a monogamous framing of relationships. You see polyamory as threatening your exclusive access to his time, attention, and emotional engagement. He has multiple girlfriends but you only have him. Where are the other people to support you? You’re only having sex 1-3 times a month because…? Yes, if his time is limited and you don’t have paramours yourself you will be competing for his time. But who says you can’t call… Read more »
Well there a few issues for me. As I mentioned in an earlier comment, I’m not a hot young woman who would be able to immediately find a flock of attractive guys to,have sex with! One of the advantages of being in a relationship is that I was able to stop dating. I always hated dating. I’m an introvert and meeting people is exhausting for me, also, being an average looking non-hot woman, it was always hard for me to find men who were interested, to be honest. I do have other people for emotional support but not at the… Read more »
As I mentioned in an earlier comment, I’m not a hot young woman who would be able to immediately find a flock of attractive guys to,have sex with! Does it need to be a flock? Just one more guy (or girl) makes you non-monogamous. You don’t need to be able to field a baseball team. Do they need to be attractive? If you limit yourself to only hot guys, it is a tautology to say you’ll have fewer options than if you expand the pool of eligible men. Kerry Cohen has an essay in which she describes her mother’s new… Read more »
I’m not really shy anymore (I was when I was younger) but I find socializing to be draining rather than invigorating, a lot of the time. I need space and time with my own thoughts. I’ve never been very social. I think it would be hard to find even one other guy to have sex with. Even when I was younger, it wasn’t easy. I’m picky I suppose. I’d estimate that I’d be willing to have sex with maybe 5% of the men I know, or less. I’m not that attracted to most men. I din’t mean they have to… Read more »
I have a friend I am attracted to, who I could have sworn was conventionally attractive. After a few friends pointed out she was “average looking” I realized what made her look that much more beautiful to me was her intelligence and fierceness. I would say that in general that’s how I feel – my appreciation for a woman’s personality colors my view of her aesthetic appeal. As such, it’s only on the extremes that I feel confident in judging whether someone is conventionally attractive or not; for those women that lie within two standard deviations of the mean it’s… Read more »
Also, there’s a mathematical fallacy you’ve made there – an assumption that the two probabilities are independent when they may not be (also, I don’t know any guys who are only attracted to 5% of women, so I’d say you’re grossly underestimating). Plus you’re ignoring population size. 5% of 100 single men isn’t a lot to work with. 5% of 10,000 single men is more than a girl might reasonably manage.
And as for being friends with the women who are having sex with my boyfriend — I hadn’t considered that, But I think I would consider those to be his relationships, not mine. I guess I think it would be weird and I wouldn’t want to interfere with is other relationships if we had reached that kind of agreement.
It’s not an interference. You two would get to define the shape of your relationships. Some people use the timezone rule (no sleeping with people in the same timezone) while others might require vetting of new partners with veto power. Personally I can’t see why anyone would want a relationship with someone their partner didn’t like and respect.
Just to be clear – non-monogamy isn’t something you should do for someone against your better judgement. (By the same token, neither is monogamy.)
I think the whole issue of non-monogamy is interesting and it is something I have given a lot of thought to, after some discussions with my boyfriend. He has expressed some interest in it, but when I really pressed him, he admitted he’d probably be bothered if I had sex with other men. I considered the prospect of a on-moogamous relationship, and decided that personally I would find it extremely stressful if my boyfriend was having sex with other women. I would definitely feel diminished. I don’t think I’d be able to connect with him emotionally or feel safe; I… Read more »
Sarah, non-monogamy doesn’t have to be all doom and gloom like you describe. You can still build a life with someone, the time you spend together can still be special. Using your restaurant analogy. (which the way you’ve phrased it makes it sound depressing and emotionally empty – but I don’t think it’s a a fair description) Let’s assume you have a restaurant that you love, such as Navarre in Portland, Oregon. You had a really enjoyable meal the last time you were there. In fact, every time you go there you enjoy your meal. The hearth baked breads with… Read more »
Also, sexual monogamy doesn’t have to be like eating at the same restaurant over and over again because people are always changing and in a truly intimate relationship, we change to satisfy the other as much as we can manage.
Though I’d never push monogamy on anyone, I think it gets a bad rap. Monogamy is awesome for me, but I’ve developed a highly intimate relationship with my husband, emotionally. He may feel differently, haha, but if so I better be the first he tells!
Reading that, I’m thinking maybe it’s more like a restaurant than I thought… a restaurant where they have reliable standards along with a few specials to mix it up. The chef knows exactly what you like, but sometimes you mix it up by ordering something different, and sometimes he surprises you with something new. Over time your love of spicy food has subsided and now you go more for subtle spices. Okay, maybe I’m getting a bit carried away… But, I think for a lot of people monogamy is unfortunately synonymous with monotony. Not the best place from which to… Read more »
In traditional Asian cultures, the woman is expected to be faithful and limited to the home under her husband’s or father’s rule…the man can have several wives and the ideally the wives are taught that they should not be jealous…of course, in real life, jealousy and rivalries are inevitable…
Christopher Ryan mentions in another video about how when societies transitioned from hunter-gatherer to agriculture and domesticated animals, our social structures and power-relationships changed, too….men needed their women to be faithful to them so that they could bestow their land and property to their biological sons….
I think Christopher Ryan is right on, especially when he says that society celebrates a kind of possessive, pathological love. It seems like if you expect for your partner to never find anyone attractive ever again once you’re together, it becomes the perfect breeding ground for jealousy and insecurity. IMO, if your partner can’t see a hot girl/guy in a magazine, in a movie, or on TV without “being in trouble” or you flipping out, that’s a very unhealthy place to be. We had a friend whose wife just had a baby. We went up to the visit them, and… Read more »