Open Discussion:
In the wake of the Sandusky sex abuse cover-up, the Associated Press is reporting that the NCAA has not ruled out dismantling the championship football program at the university.
In a PBS interview Monday night, NCAA President Mark Emmert said he doesn’t want to “take anything off the table” if the NCAA determines penalties against Penn State are warranted.
Emmert said he’s “never seen anything as egregious as this in terms of just overall conduct and behavior inside a university.” He added, “What the appropriate penalties are, if there are determinations of violations, we’ll have to decide.”
The last time the NCAA shut down a football program with the so-called “death penalty” was in the 1980s, when SMU was forced to drop the sport because of extra benefits violations. After the NCAA suspended the SMU program for a year, the school decided not to play in 1988, either, as it tried to regroup.
Seeing as the violations here are legal, and not football-based, does shutting down the program actually rectify anything?
Or would dismantling the program serve as a deterrent for other universities who may turn a blind eye to illegal behavior?
Note: This is an open discussion, so please feel free to discuss this or any other topic in the comments below. A quick reminder that attacking or insulting any member of our community will result in the deletion of your comment as well as possible banning.
AP Photo/ Gene J Puskar
Great weblog right here! Additionally your web site loads up fast! What web host are you using? Can I am getting your affiliate link for your host? I desire my web site loaded up as fast as yours lol
The NYTimes reports this morning that the statue of Paterno will be removed.
Does,this sweep the memory of Sandusky under the rug?
I am conflicted. There’s a part of me that agrees with the idea of shutting down the PSU football program because the thought of a hundred thousand people filling that stadium and cheering for a team that represents the power and prestige that allowed the sexual abuse of children to continue unabated for so long makes me want to vomit. Then, there’s another part of me…the part that knows exactly how those boys felt because I experienced a similar kind of pain and carry around the same kind of shame. This part of me wants to burn the stadium to… Read more »
Off the top of my head – “Angelou” stadium after Dr Maya Angelou? She knows why the caged bird sings!
“Caged Bird Stadium”?
“See, you don’t have to think about doing the right thing. If you’re for the right thing, then you do it without thinking.” – Maya Angelou
If it’s given any other name it has to have significance that won’t be forgotten. How about “Penitence Stadium”? That may get the message across long term. Lessons should never be forgotten.
And I remain floored! Fully disappointed and disillusioned with a society that can’t just point a mutherfkg finger at evil and call it “Evil.” Throughout time, good and evil have been distinct and empowered according to values of the host society. Today, this horse-sht, kill-the-church first, blame men first, blame old convention first, limp-wrist society won’t call evil by its name. Fassion demands certain bashing and altering of reality be completed in order to put out fires and re-direct accountability. Mamby-pamby rules. Conviction to right and good must die. How dare conventions of good and evil cast any shadow of… Read more »
Anyone who’s not pro-death penalty, I strongly urge you to read Zimbardo’s “The Lucifer Effect” to see how insidious group think is in institutions. Firing the bad apples won’t cut it. As of now, Penn State football is a bad barrel. It HAS to go. At least for a time.
Yup PM – it would be worth while a great many people educating themselves into the nature and operation of group psychology.
The Lucifer Effect is a good primer.
“It’s fascinating how when supposed justice has been done and that fat has been chewed enough so many want to start pushing it all aside. It’s old news – it’s been gone over – time to move on!” Its true even in the unreported cases. “Enough damage has been done…” “We’ve all been through enough.” “The legal route would be way over the top.” Little Richie will get over this and move on…we should ALL move on.” “Don’t mention it around her ever again…it wall all fade into her lost memories.” I have seen that scenario play-out far (as in… Read more »
I think their program should be shut down for a couple of seasons. I don’t believe the NCAA should be doing it though. They are not a trustworthy organization unless money is involved. The players should be allowed to transfer with no penalty. After SMU got the death penalty, 130 recruiters came to Dallas so these players will get other opportunities at other schools. Shutting it down will give PSU the chance to revive itself out of a corrupt cultural where football was the most important thing
In General Reply, An Org or institution can by its very nature be bad. Back when Americans held fundamental integrity as a valuable “given,” leadership of such an insane and absurd fiasco would have resigned. But PSU is fundamentally rotten, thus rotten leaders have no hesitation to bathe in their own stench. Students with with no character in their persons riot for their insane Generals and embrace the destruction of the boys. If the currently-signed scholarship footballers had one ounce of integrity, they would leave as well and demand (on camera) that their scholarship be honored. And if they didn’t… Read more »
Rob,
I find it difficult to believe that any amount of response would satiate your anger. Given the language you have used I am confident that if the question were “Should the entire university be shut down?” then your answer would still be “yes.”
It is difficult to take arguments so poisoned with hatred seriously. Since no response would ever truly make you happy, there is really no discussing this with you.
Nope…just shut-down the Lion’s den and I’ll party like a Kennedy!!!
“Since no response would ever truly make you happy…” Snot true at all.
“Hatred?” No. I don’t think I “hate” anyone or anything. Its too broad and meaningless. I prefer to hone my frownee-face thoughts to weaponry that can cut the heart out of a matter.
Maybe “passion?” Possibly “wicked frownee-faced passion” But hatred is so… primitive.
Rob, per your argument, not only must the entire Pennsylvanie State University but shut down but also the entire State of Pennsylvania, since it is a public University of the State of Pennsylvania. However, Pennsylvania is part of the United States of America. Therefore, per your logic, the entire United States of America, including all citizens, and residents, legal and illegal are responsible for the abuse of those 10 or 15 boys, and must therefore be shut down. So, yes, let’s go ahead and shut down the United States, since it’s created the culture that led to Jerry Sandusky’s abuse.… Read more »
LOL…did you ever see the Animal house scene that sort of sounds like this extrapolation?
Just forward to 1:25 point to cut to the chase. You just gotta watch!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROxvT8KKdFw
This fixation on the Penn State football team is creepy.
If you had genuince concern about abused children and not some weird fixation against Penn State football, you would be far more bothered by the thousands of children abused by Catholic priests than the 10 or 15 abused by Jerry Sandusky.
K….dude….see….I though like the topic at hand is like all explained in like the thread’s title: “Open Thread: Should Penn State’s Football Team Be Shut Down?” or “Open Thread: Like Should Penn State’s Football Team Be All Like Shut Down-n-Stuff?” So like when the Catholic Church abuse is all like of focus n stuff…shoot me a tweet and then I can be all like “priests suck” n stuff like thaaaht. And like OMG!!! Sorry dude! Didn’t mean to be all like “creepy” and stuff by talking about Penn State. This whole “topic and subject” thing went SHOOOH….right over my head… Read more »
Wrong. The topic is abuse of children. What is being done here is ignoring the thousands of abuse victims, for some really weird reason, and focusing on these 10 or 12.
There have been a good dozen articles here on the abuse of 10 or 12 boys by Jerry Sandusky, with a strong response while the thousands of boys abused by countless Catholic priests continues to get ignored.
So, yes – the response to these 10 or 15 boys being abused, while ignoring the thosands of boys abused is seriosly weird, creepy.
This fixation on the Penn State football team is creepy. If you had genuince concern about abused children and not some weird fixation against Penn State football, you would be far more bothered by the thousands of children abused by Catholic priests than the 10 or 15 abused by Jerry Sandusky. Interesting response – and one that is quite dismissive! “If you had genuine concern… “? Did I just read that? Did I just see someone dismiss matters with that level of indifference and disregard? OK Eric – lets take the bigger picture then! Lets open up the whole can… Read more »
Thousands vs. 15. THOUSANDS.
What’s creepy, weird, strange, whatever you want to call it is that there wasn’t/isn’t NEARLY as much outrage over the many THOUSANDS (we don’t even know the total number) of boys abused by Catholic priests for DECADES as there is over these 15.
Yeah, this is bad but that is thousands of times worse because it involves probably thousands, at least hundreds of times more children. Tihs comes down to shielding/protecting the Church’s abuse, when the response/reaction/demands are compared. THAT is what is creepy.
So now it’s 15 Vs THOUSANDS?
Nah – it’s Media Vs Reality!
You seem to forget that their are some Creepy attitudes to religion in the USA – and even that constitutional thing about separation out Church and State! The 15 are interesting because they are central to the Church of Football and Sports!
It’s a nice Microcosm and worked example of reality – It’s just creepy how the sports fans don’t want anything to get in the way of the new season!
“So now it’s 15 Vs THOUSANDS?”
Uh, yes. Exactly. It’s been in the MEDIA for many years now. Why is this surprising?
“The 15 are interesting because they are central to the Church of Football and Sports!”
Interesting?
Zoo animals are “interesting.” Insects are “interesting.” Children being abused are not. It’s sick and disgusting.
Hating sports or football is within everyone’s rights, but this over the top reaction (compared the reaction toward the Church’s far, far, far worse abuse) is not about the kids; it’s about hating sports. Children should be protected, not used
“Children should be protected, not used”
Exactly! Now let’s alter the institutional tools and culture that make the abuse possible.
Institutional factors are nearly always immense and well guarded out of self preservation of the individuals, enablers and the house. The church has its warriors making changes there.
The NCAA will address this. They WILL do something. The people of State College and PSU will likewise do something. But ALL will only go just so far.
As usual Eric you show just why you are such an interesting personality on these boards. So you snip a phrase here, snip a word there and then add some patented Eric dressing, toss it all together and serve it up as a supposed wholesome salad for all to consume. Hating sports or football is within everyone’s rights, but this over the top reaction (compared the reaction toward the Church’s far, far, far worse abuse) is not about the kids; it’s about hating sports. Children should be protected, not used Fascinating twist on the whole mess. Lets get a few… Read more »
“Fascinating twist on the whole mess.” It’s the reality. You call yourself MediaHound. Compare this reaction to the countless incidents involving priests abusing children, mainly boys. There is no comparison, and certainly the different on this board it’s truly disproportionate. Some of Sandusky’s victims are also now grown. “You keep mentioning the figures 12 and 15 in relation to PSU. The last count concerning all reported cases was double both of those figures.” Whatever the number is, multiply it by several hundred at least or a thousand (or more) and you get the number abused by Catholic priests. “You are… Read more »
Oh Eric – you are off on one aren’t you? That’s the difference between us. To me, it doesn’t matter whether it is General Motors, the Boy/Cub/Girl Scouts, the Teamsters Union, the Catholic Church, or any other organization. My outrage would be hundreds or thousands of times more if they abused hundreds of thousands of times more children than a single football coach. Eric – I find it interesting that you have a “Variable” scale of rage and play the numbers game – so much for 15 and a higher amount for 1000. That is the difference between you and… Read more »
“That is the difference between you and so many others. Personally I have the same level of rage when the count gets higher than Zero!” Turns out those thousands of victims are people, human beings, not just numbers. Each person counts for something. It’s not a game. Sorry, harming thousands of human beings is simply far worse than 20, even if the 20 were harmed by a football coach. “Thank heavens you are not in the field of support and counselling survivors. I hate to think of how your percentage response would only cause more damage!” I DO counsel survivors… Read more »
It’s not (shouldn’t) devolve to a golden opportunity to release years of resentment against college football. Hmmm – it seems that you are using college sports to release years of resentment against the Catholic Church – in fact you are willing to say people count less if they have been subjected to abuse and it has not been through the Catholic Church. Such odd Logic(?) and Reasoning(?). So it’s still the numbers game and the primary concern comes in at the end – Football and college sports gets different treatment because the numbers game makes the Catholic Church a bigger… Read more »
THANK YOU!
“But PSU is fundamentally rotten, thus rotten leaders have no hesitation to bathe in their own stench. Students with with no character in their persons riot for their insane Generals and embrace the destruction of the boys.” What? “If the currently-signed scholarship footballers had one ounce of integrity, they would leave as well and demand (on camera) that their scholarship be honored. And if they didn’t get a default scholarship because PSU has no integrity, they ought to leave and find another way.” That’s very easy for you to say. It’s not you who’s throwing away your one big chance… Read more »
Say Sandunsky and Paterno had been celebrated professors of sociology. Would you be demanding that they “remove sociology”? If that was the case, I doubt there would be more than 2 or 3 column inches! Having been dealing with abuse cases for over 25 years, I can see the old patterns playing out. It’s fascinating how when supposed justice has been done and that fat has been chewed enough so many want to start pushing it all aside. It’s old news – it’s been gone over – time to move on! …. until next time! And there will be a… Read more »
“They are responsible, but you’re also holding students that had nothing to do with it responsible which is wrong.” Not wrong at all. the NCAA has already closed Div 1 programs for much much less than rape in the very locker room of the team. When a bomb goes off, people get hurt. These players signed-onto a sh*t organization. They too were fooled. To continue the charade any longer is ludicrous. If they are truly as hot the athletes as they had to be to be chosen by PSU, thet ought to have no problem finding another place. The NCAA… Read more »
I couldn’t read that….
It would make about as much sense to close the entire college down on the basis that the administration were involved in the cover up. I’d say let the team remain, but it wouldn’t be unreasonable to make their continued membership of the league contingent on them removing the statue and other references to paterno and sandunsky.
When the enraged Zombie Lion cubs were turning over cars and smashing glass all about, I watched on TV in red-faced outrage. As expected, I heard one young zombie tell a reporter “those little liars are ruining this school.” That level of victim-hatred, “blame-the-victim,” and self-centered arrogance just scares the pooh out of me and many others. Those riots have been so widely forgotten, but they endure vividly within the survivor community. It was all such a hideous illustration of the mentality that prevents disclosure. Let us not forget; that very, rabid fanaticism was identified by at least one victim’s… Read more »
Seeing as the violations here are legal, and not football-based, does shutting down the program actually rectify anything? Just because there have been Legal and criminal violations under the purview of the NCAA it does not move the NCCA out of the way. Paterno and Football are small potatoes here – which ever way they are served up; Roasted, Boiled or Mashed! Some of course prefer half baked! The NCCA is a members organisation and has a member called Penn State University. Penn State have agreed to comply with the NCAA rule book, and there are very strong indications that… Read more »
Cool! Let’s summarize! – “Others did nothing wrong” – “It won’t help anything” – “It will hurt the innocent college boys” – “Blame the admins not the people” My head just exploded all over this f**king screen people! Its not a “crime in isolation!” Penn State rapes and all the cover-up surrounding it for many years is an “institutional culture” issue. Do you destroy the Nazi party, or just the really bad guys within it? We have this fear and hesitance in America to call a method, a subculture or a people “sick and/or wrong.” Penn State has a very… Read more »
Welp, since you’re going to bring up obviously irrelevant historical examples (Nazis? Really?), I’m going to go ahead and throw one right back at you. Shortly after the invasion of Iraq it was determined that the entire Ba’athist regime was destructive. This made sense because the regime had participated in genocidal attacks, tortured its own people, acted as thugs, etc. As a result, coalition authorities undertook one of their worst ideas ever: De-Ba’athification, where anyone who had even remotely worked for the Ba’athists was removed from office. This resulted in a whole ton of babies being thrown out with the… Read more »
“Do you destroy the Nazi party, or just the really bad guys within it?”
The football team didn’t have an open and public policy of abusing children to which all members subscribed and supported. Is there any evidence that the institutional culture that allowed the cover-ups extended to the players? If not then your argument doesn’t hold much weight.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
Circuitous reasoning coming up…..
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/18/education/top-universities-test-the-online-appeal-of-free.html?_r=1&hp
So maybe sooner than later Campuses will be simply Football venues.
Background: I have been a college football fan, an Ohio State football fan, and a Big 10 football fan my whole life. I have had a lot of respect for Joe Paterno and Penn State football for a long time. I was shocked and horrified on a very deep level when I heard the charges, and I’ve followed the case very closely from day 1. I have read about it DAILY from day 1. Daily. It means that much to me. Look at the Freeh report, or at least watch the interviews with him on ESPN, you can do it… Read more »
Here’s the Freeh report summary. It’s an hour long – http://espn.go.com/watchespn/player?id=545609 . You need Flash player to watch it.
I can appreciate the high level of emotions surrounding this situation. However, it’s difficult for me to understand what axing the program will serve to accomplish. Sandusky is going to prison for the rest of his life. This is important because it serves the function of deterrence. If other administrators covered up his behavior, then they can (and I’ve heard will, from at least one source) be charged as accessories. Again, this is important because it will serve to deter. The individual victims have pending civil suits against the university. This will not change the past, but hopefully payouts will… Read more »
http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2012/07/penn_state_death_penalty_the_case_for_putting_the_nittany_lions_on_the_sidelines_.html
It would serve to deter anyone at any university who would cover up criminal activity of coaches to save a sports team. That’s exactly what happened. It makes the stakes much higher. Read the post below about SMU, too. The PSU football players will be fine if the program gets the death penalty. And it bears repeating that SMU now has a successful college football program. PSU football wouldn’t be gone forever.
Put it another way – the football program had so much power that THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNIVERSITY agreed to not report Sandusky for raping a child, and would still have not reported it to this day if we hadn’t found out. It needs to go.
I’m sorry, but I just don’t buy the argument that losing your job is somehow worse than jail.
Let’s not forget that Joe Paterno would be prosecuted right now of he wasn’t deceased.
In order to “make the stakes much higher” we have to assume that to individual football coaches, losing your job (because the program is shut down) is literally worse than going to jail. I do not buy it.
OK, don’t buy it, since I didn’t make it. I am making the argument that if administrators know that covering up awful crimes like this could destroy their university’s cash cow, they would be much less likely to do it. Not only would they risk (probably lose) their jobs, but the stakes have become even higher as they could take the entire football program (the very thing they sought to protect with the cover-up) down with them. Not only that, but, if you’ve read the Freeh report, you’ll notice that some janitors witnessed an incident but didn’t report it because… Read more »
The Penn State football team should only be shut down AFTER each and every church where a priest abused boys gets shut down – and that’s a lot of churches. Catholic priests abused hundreds of times more boys than Jerry Sandusky did.
Oh man! I fully agree!
So let’s let Gerry Sandusky out of jail until all those priests are behind bars.
And could we please not prosecute the drug dealers until all the meth lab guys are busted?
Enhance the football program. Fund and provide scholastic assistance to players who are struggling with their curriculum. Memorialize the strength of those that came forward on the team’s football jerseys. Provide full scholarships for any victim that is interested in adult education at Penn. Open up the Penn sports facilities to young people in the community to use for the next 10 years – free of charge. Rename the stadium and sports facilities to something that pays homage to the victims. Immediately remove anyone who stood by with their knowledge of abuse and replace them with people of willful common… Read more »
I like that idea. Football provides the university with money and prestige. Memorializing the victims on the jersey’s and the stadium will forever remove prestige from the university at least from their football team, but I would also suggest that the revenue generating side needs to be addressed also. A portion of football generated revenue should go to programs assisting abused or at risk boys.
There are ways to punish a university by removing the benefits of a football program (to the university that is) without removing the football program.
Take the money and support underfunded social service sites for child abuse/sex abuse, like PASSAGES or V-DAY….
All the victims were kids and boys. They were NOT adult and female.
Moderator Note: Edited to remove personal insult
Because taking the money away from minority athletes dependent on scholarship funds is a great way to fund alternative programs…
Shutting down the program entirely just sounds like something which would have the net effect of putting a lot of young men, who did not do anything to anyone, out of school because their football scholarships would be revoked along with the program. Young men who might be, to a large degree, African-American or not of a terribly high socioeconomic status and rely on college football–for better or worse–to fund their educational and career ambitions.
Inners has it completely right! Few people know this, but because of the current Tax Code, athletic scholarships are only ever given out on a year-by-year basis. This means that anyone who has not yet completed their education, and is depending on an athletic scholarship (and let’s not forget that this can include up to 85 students on scholarships for a single team, according to the NCAA), has received no guarantees about continued scholarships beyond the current year. Eliminating the program we will harm people who were dependent upon football to get through college. I would also argue that, as… Read more »
I concur. I was talking to a buddy today about this. There’s a barbecue stand on The Strip in Tuscaloosa that pretty much only has business during game days. That guy should still be able to pay his mortgage regardless of the evil deeds of those in charge.
In a similar sense, I would hate to lose my job because my employer is a bastard. And so on.
The economy of Happy Valley needs football. Only rapists and enablers should be punished. Not a whole ecosystem
“Only rapists and enablers should be punished. Not a whole ecosystem”
If you can’t see that a sick instituion can actually cause bad things to happen, lets give the chemical companies all their court-penalties back…cuz the investors of Dupont didnt do anything wrong! My 401K surely didn’t kill, but it sure did get penalized.
BBQ Vendors?
I’ll call the bullet manufacturers and tell them the war’s end ought not hurt their bottom-line this year….snot fair if they do.
The Football Team didn’t do anything. How about we just imprison all the guilty administrators etc… for once. Suspension isn’t punishment, it just makes everyone feel better while spreading around blame to people who had nothing to do with the crimes.
“The Football Team didn’t do anything” Exactly!!!!