Open Discussion:
In the wake of the Sandusky sex abuse cover-up, the Associated Press is reporting that the NCAA has not ruled out dismantling the championship football program at the university.
In a PBS interview Monday night, NCAA President Mark Emmert said he doesn’t want to “take anything off the table” if the NCAA determines penalties against Penn State are warranted.
Emmert said he’s “never seen anything as egregious as this in terms of just overall conduct and behavior inside a university.” He added, “What the appropriate penalties are, if there are determinations of violations, we’ll have to decide.”
The last time the NCAA shut down a football program with the so-called “death penalty” was in the 1980s, when SMU was forced to drop the sport because of extra benefits violations. After the NCAA suspended the SMU program for a year, the school decided not to play in 1988, either, as it tried to regroup.
Seeing as the violations here are legal, and not football-based, does shutting down the program actually rectify anything?
Or would dismantling the program serve as a deterrent for other universities who may turn a blind eye to illegal behavior?
Note: This is an open discussion, so please feel free to discuss this or any other topic in the comments below. A quick reminder that attacking or insulting any member of our community will result in the deletion of your comment as well as possible banning.
AP Photo/ Gene J Puskar
About Joanna Schroeder
The Football Team didn’t do anything. How about we just imprison all the guilty administrators etc… for once. Suspension isn’t punishment, it just makes everyone feel better while spreading around blame to people who had nothing to do with the crimes.
“The Football Team didn’t do anything” Exactly!!!!
Shutting down the program entirely just sounds like something which would have the net effect of putting a lot of young men, who did not do anything to anyone, out of school because their football scholarships would be revoked along with the program. Young men who might be, to a large degree, African-American or not of a terribly high socioeconomic status and rely on college football–for better or worse–to fund their educational and career ambitions.
Inners has it completely right!
Few people know this, but because of the current Tax Code, athletic scholarships are only ever given out on a year-by-year basis. This means that anyone who has not yet completed their education, and is depending on an athletic scholarship (and let’s not forget that this can include up to 85 students on scholarships for a single team, according to the NCAA), has received no guarantees about continued scholarships beyond the current year.
Eliminating the program we will harm people who were dependent upon football to get through college.
I would also argue that, as the program had attracted a great deal of alumni donations, and there is no way to prove that the average alumnus/alumna knew anything about the scandal, it is improper to essentially rob them of donated funds by forcing a shutdown of the program. The donors should not have to see their money thrown out because of decisions over which they had no control.
I concur. I was talking to a buddy today about this. There’s a barbecue stand on The Strip in Tuscaloosa that pretty much only has business during game days. That guy should still be able to pay his mortgage regardless of the evil deeds of those in charge.
In a similar sense, I would hate to lose my job because my employer is a bastard. And so on.
The economy of Happy Valley needs football. Only rapists and enablers should be punished. Not a whole ecosystem
“Only rapists and enablers should be punished. Not a whole ecosystem”
If you can’t see that a sick instituion can actually cause bad things to happen, lets give the chemical companies all their court-penalties back…cuz the investors of Dupont didnt do anything wrong! My 401K surely didn’t kill, but it sure did get penalized.
BBQ Vendors?
I’ll call the bullet manufacturers and tell them the war’s end ought not hurt their bottom-line this year….snot fair if they do.
Take the money and support underfunded social service sites for child abuse/sex abuse, like PASSAGES or V-DAY….
All the victims were kids and boys. They were NOT adult and female.
Moderator Note: Edited to remove personal insult
Because taking the money away from minority athletes dependent on scholarship funds is a great way to fund alternative programs…
Enhance the football program. Fund and provide scholastic assistance to players who are struggling with their curriculum. Memorialize the strength of those that came forward on the team’s football jerseys. Provide full scholarships for any victim that is interested in adult education at Penn. Open up the Penn sports facilities to young people in the community to use for the next 10 years – free of charge. Rename the stadium and sports facilities to something that pays homage to the victims. Immediately remove anyone who stood by with their knowledge of abuse and replace them with people of willful common sense and courage.
I like that idea. Football provides the university with money and prestige. Memorializing the victims on the jersey’s and the stadium will forever remove prestige from the university at least from their football team, but I would also suggest that the revenue generating side needs to be addressed also. A portion of football generated revenue should go to programs assisting abused or at risk boys.
There are ways to punish a university by removing the benefits of a football program (to the university that is) without removing the football program.
The Penn State football team should only be shut down AFTER each and every church where a priest abused boys gets shut down – and that’s a lot of churches. Catholic priests abused hundreds of times more boys than Jerry Sandusky did.
Oh man! I fully agree!
So let’s let Gerry Sandusky out of jail until all those priests are behind bars.
And could we please not prosecute the drug dealers until all the meth lab guys are busted?
Background: I have been a college football fan, an Ohio State football fan, and a Big 10 football fan my whole life. I have had a lot of respect for Joe Paterno and Penn State football for a long time. I was shocked and horrified on a very deep level when I heard the charges, and I’ve followed the case very closely from day 1. I have read about it DAILY from day 1. Daily. It means that much to me.
Look at the Freeh report, or at least watch the interviews with him on ESPN, you can do it for free online. The evidence against Penn State’s athletic heirarchy is damning. We have known even before this that Paterno handled player discipline in-house, making several players do drills after an off-campus fight, and, when one administrator spoke up, no one made Paterno turn them over for official discipline. Very little oversight, and it’s this lack of oversight that allowed Sandusky to get away with rape for over a decade. Again – this is not JUST a football problem. This is a problem with Penn State’s athletics heads allowing the football program a special pass to discipline players and coaches in-house.
Please watch this video, for those who are concerned about the players. I’m with Stephen Smith: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=8165936 . Let them trasnfer and give them another year of eligibility. No football for Penn State in the near future. The death penalty is the only appropriate choice. It will be a disgrace to see Penn State field a team in September. I can’t stand the thought of it; it LITERALLY makes me sick. This is the single-most disgusting thing to happen in the history of American athletics, and absolutely warrants the death penalty.
Here’s the Freeh report summary. It’s an hour long – http://espn.go.com/watchespn/player?id=545609 . You need Flash player to watch it.
I can appreciate the high level of emotions surrounding this situation.
However, it’s difficult for me to understand what axing the program will serve to accomplish.
Sandusky is going to prison for the rest of his life. This is important because it serves the function of deterrence. If other administrators covered up his behavior, then they can (and I’ve heard will, from at least one source) be charged as accessories. Again, this is important because it will serve to deter.
The individual victims have pending civil suits against the university. This will not change the past, but hopefully payouts will ease their pain and help them pay for the counseling they need. This is important because it serves the goal of restitution.
But what goal does shutting down the program serve?
If the program is shut down it will not change the past, nor will it be more productive than providing monetary payouts to the victims. It cannot possibly be a bigger deterrence than going to jail (can you REALLY picture a conversation that goes something like “You can’t do that, we’ll go to jail! Even worse, we might lose our jobs!”).
So if it doesn’t serve to deter, it will not change the past, and it will not provide restitution, then why do it? Seriously, what is the benefit?
http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2012/07/penn_state_death_penalty_the_case_for_putting_the_nittany_lions_on_the_sidelines_.html
It would serve to deter anyone at any university who would cover up criminal activity of coaches to save a sports team. That’s exactly what happened. It makes the stakes much higher. Read the post below about SMU, too. The PSU football players will be fine if the program gets the death penalty. And it bears repeating that SMU now has a successful college football program. PSU football wouldn’t be gone forever.
Put it another way – the football program had so much power that THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNIVERSITY agreed to not report Sandusky for raping a child, and would still have not reported it to this day if we hadn’t found out. It needs to go.
I’m sorry, but I just don’t buy the argument that losing your job is somehow worse than jail.
Let’s not forget that Joe Paterno would be prosecuted right now of he wasn’t deceased.
In order to “make the stakes much higher” we have to assume that to individual football coaches, losing your job (because the program is shut down) is literally worse than going to jail. I do not buy it.
OK, don’t buy it, since I didn’t make it. I am making the argument that if administrators know that covering up awful crimes like this could destroy their university’s cash cow, they would be much less likely to do it. Not only would they risk (probably lose) their jobs, but the stakes have become even higher as they could take the entire football program (the very thing they sought to protect with the cover-up) down with them.
Not only that, but, if you’ve read the Freeh report, you’ll notice that some janitors witnessed an incident but didn’t report it because they feared they would lose their jobs. Penn State football was too powerful, they were too powerless. When you have a rotten institution, you CANNOT fix it by getting rid of individuals. It’s the culture that has to change. The foundation is rotten. Level the house, start again. Again, I urge you to read about SMU and why the death penalty was applied there. It needs to be applied here, too.
Circuitous reasoning coming up…..
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/18/education/top-universities-test-the-online-appeal-of-free.html?_r=1&hp
So maybe sooner than later Campuses will be simply Football venues.
Cool! Let’s summarize!
- “Others did nothing wrong”
- “It won’t help anything”
- “It will hurt the innocent college boys”
- “Blame the admins not the people”
My head just exploded all over this f**king screen people!
Its not a “crime in isolation!” Penn State rapes and all the cover-up surrounding it for many years is an “institutional culture” issue.
Do you destroy the Nazi party, or just the really bad guys within it?
We have this fear and hesitance in America to call a method, a subculture or a people “sick and/or wrong.”
Penn State has a very serious institutional, cultural illness. If you didn’t have the opportunity to see the riots in State College, PA, take the time now to look it up on YouTube.
Penn State built a college of corruption to feed the Roman coliseum. “Pay no attention to what you’ll never see…just watch our gladiators kick Div 1 arse!!!”
Tis’ Funny….people blame Penn State football for greatly enhancing Penn State University’s stature and respect…yada yada… Blame Paterno-inferno for bringing-in millions of dollars… yada yada yada… But you just can’t bring yourselves to see a negative. Hmmmmm…Where and when have we heard this dynamic before?
The football players? Really? They signed-on with a psychotic organization. Sometimes sh*t just happens. I joined a company once that went out of business. I gave up other opportunities to do it (like giving-up other scholarships maybe). Maybe Rob should have done a little more Due-Dill…maybe someone ought to have warned little Billy Longpass that babies were being raped in the showers?
Its funny, the IRS, the Venture Cap guys and the Board really didn’t give a crap that I just signed-on 9-months prior. Go sell pity somewhere it matters…like with victims 1-1000.
You know, I was gonna go on and on explaining why…reasoning and illustrating how. But if you can’t see that a sick culture within an institution can actually be to blame for something…I’m wasting my morning.
Welp, since you’re going to bring up obviously irrelevant historical examples (Nazis? Really?), I’m going to go ahead and throw one right back at you.
Shortly after the invasion of Iraq it was determined that the entire Ba’athist regime was destructive. This made sense because the regime had participated in genocidal attacks, tortured its own people, acted as thugs, etc.
As a result, coalition authorities undertook one of their worst ideas ever: De-Ba’athification, where anyone who had even remotely worked for the Ba’athists was removed from office. This resulted in a whole ton of babies being thrown out with the bathwater, and civil administration in Iraq completely broke down.
There is no evidence that the policy of “destroy the Nazi party” is a better analogy here than the idea behind “destroy the Ba’athist party.”
Personally, I believe in William Blackstone’s argument that it is better for 10 guilty men to go free than 1 innocent man be punished. Others are free to disagree, but disaster lies at the end of that path.
“Do you destroy the Nazi party, or just the really bad guys within it?”
The football team didn’t have an open and public policy of abusing children to which all members subscribed and supported. Is there any evidence that the institutional culture that allowed the cover-ups extended to the players? If not then your argument doesn’t hold much weight.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
Seeing as the violations here are legal, and not football-based, does shutting down the program actually rectify anything?
Just because there have been Legal and criminal violations under the purview of the NCAA it does not move the NCCA out of the way. Paterno and Football are small potatoes here – which ever way they are served up; Roasted, Boiled or Mashed! Some of course prefer half baked!
The NCCA is a members organisation and has a member called Penn State University. Penn State have agreed to comply with the NCAA rule book, and there are very strong indications that the NCAA rule book has been broken for about 15 years!
We are not taking about minor infractions and small Potatoes such as giving players in any sport a pass when they are caught taking performance enhancing drugs, or bribes … or throwing games for a kick back!
The NCAA promotes not only rules but “Ethics”, and the biggest issue is how those Ethics have been ignored. That was made clear in the NCCA letter if 17 November 2011 to the NCAA member organisation known as PSU – Paterno Sports University.
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/pdfs/2012/ncaa+statement
Since last November thee have been more revelations – and Freeh was authorised to share info with the NCAA. That does not mean that Info was in the Freeh report. Freeh was asked to not publish certain matters – there is still a Grand Jury Sitting, Possible further Criminal Charges – two men aware awaiting trial for Perjury …. and as sure as there are flies on horse crap, there is still a lot more to come out! The NCAA may not be able to anything for years!
The Freeh report is not complete by any means – so many refused to be interviewed or hand over papers and documents – and Freeh had no power to make them comply. But whilst the Freeh report is not complete it is one hell of a big Smoking Gun, and it very astutely points to exactly where spot lights need to be turned. One of those High Power Halogen Spotlights has the Trustees looking like startled rabbits.
The NCAA don’t deal in Beyond all reasonable doubt – they deal in Balance Of Probability. Does the evidence show that there has on the Balance of Probability a failure in Governance by a member institution such that it has breached the rule book?
It would appear yes – and that lack of Governance covers Trustees – Management – Counsel – Failures to report as required by statute to Second Mile, Child Protective Services and to act to protect the Institution and it’s associated sports teams at PSU and not Paterno’s Sports University.
I think that the NCAA are on the right track in dealing with the issues of “Institutional Control” cos from where I’m sitting Paterno Sports University was out of control and facilitating “Institutionalised Abuse and Control” and all about one man called Paterno and his Elevated image of himself. Any NCAA member organisation that allows such a lapse of control needs to be slapped – hard – often.
So if people want to be unhappy about the failure and fall outs, they really do need to read the NCAA rule book, look at the players bound by those rules, and stop The Pavlovian responses when they hear the word Football and worry that they won’t be able to lie back remote control in hand and think they are coach as they scream at the TV.
The failures go all the way back to 1998 and before – the Trustees failed – they empowered management failure and cover up – and they allowed Paterno Sports University to ride rough shod over reality. They had Counsel which acted in odd Privileged ways, and so many opportunities to get out from under. They made choices which now have to be judged against a Rule Book that PSU have agreed to be judged by.
I can’t for the life of me figure out why the Trustees have not resigned on mass – and why there have been such muted calls for such! The Institutional failures are staggering – and so many have sat back and basked in the Paterno Myth, because of money coming in and Reality being peddled Paterno’s way!
Loved the Sky Banner!
The Grand Jury is still sitting, and I see that they are now asking PSU Trustees (Mark Emmert) to come and have a chat! Maybe some need to place PSU above their own interests and views. They have been getting it very wrong for so long. Would You have confidence in them?
And I see that Students have taken a lead. Paternoville tent city is now Nittanyville. Well if those in Trust can’t get then message, maybe others need to make that message clear. I hope the NCAA follows the student’s example.
When the enraged Zombie Lion cubs were turning over cars and smashing glass all about, I watched on TV in red-faced outrage. As expected, I heard one young zombie tell a reporter “those little liars are ruining this school.”
That level of victim-hatred, “blame-the-victim,” and self-centered arrogance just scares the pooh out of me and many others. Those riots have been so widely forgotten, but they endure vividly within the survivor community. It was all such a hideous illustration of the mentality that prevents disclosure. Let us not forget; that very, rabid fanaticism was identified by at least one victim’s mother as “a fully expected reaction…one that caused her son to refuse to report the rape.”
An institutional culture that creates and maintains a level of such violent license so as to scare a raped little boy into silence ought not just be closed. It ought to be nuked.
It would make about as much sense to close the entire college down on the basis that the administration were involved in the cover up. I’d say let the team remain, but it wouldn’t be unreasonable to make their continued membership of the league contingent on them removing the statue and other references to paterno and sandunsky.
In General Reply,
An Org or institution can by its very nature be bad. Back when Americans held fundamental integrity as a valuable “given,” leadership of such an insane and absurd fiasco would have resigned. But PSU is fundamentally rotten, thus rotten leaders have no hesitation to bathe in their own stench. Students with with no character in their persons riot for their insane Generals and embrace the destruction of the boys.
If the currently-signed scholarship footballers had one ounce of integrity, they would leave as well and demand (on camera) that their scholarship be honored. And if they didn’t get a default scholarship because PSU has no integrity, they ought to leave and find another way. But no…snuggle-in closer to the Devil Billy Longpass! Snuggle-in comfortably, as your position here is ensured to be sound…it was paid for with a sacrificed little boy! (and if you think I’m being overly dramatic here, you don’t quite understand the gravity of child rape)
I find it fully sad that adult American integrity has decayed to such an extent that we don’t see leadership as being responsible and accountable for everything that happens under its roof. And now to think that the same leadership was directly involved in coverup that cost boys their sane and prosperous lives is beyond my comprehension.
To think that the leaders, faculty, students and athletes were/are not devastatingly outraged so as to call for the removal of football is blowing my mind. This was not a gambling scandal. This was not one of many boosters getting caught paying for Billy Longpass’ mother’s Lexus. These were little vulnerable boys who trusted Penn State! Trusted Paterno! Trusted sandusky! And by default, the boys trusted the integrity of Penn State’s leadership to run a sound and safe ship! There they were being raped…before an adult leader’s very eyes and we debate what he should have done. We pass the blame and point to others — who told what to whom and when?
The insanity… the insanity that anyone has to argue that Penn State is, by its very nature rotten to the core … What has happened to this country? The PSU Lions ought to already be a memory. Instead, we have debate? Clearly, we have no regard for the throw-away, disenfranchised children. Fully, we have no integrity if we farm them, and grown them in a promised future of The Second Mile. What monsters give little children hope and promises only as a guise for a nightmare…an end to life?…and the leaders remain with a death-grip on their precious PSU position… the rabid dogs can paint themselves and cheer in drunken blindness
Thus, I am certain there will be an opening kick-off in State College this Fall…and there will be ASPCA commercials with close-up shots of infected cat’s eyes. Won’t you please donate to save an abused or neglected kitten?
Rob,
I find it difficult to believe that any amount of response would satiate your anger. Given the language you have used I am confident that if the question were “Should the entire university be shut down?” then your answer would still be “yes.”
It is difficult to take arguments so poisoned with hatred seriously. Since no response would ever truly make you happy, there is really no discussing this with you.
Nope…just shut-down the Lion’s den and I’ll party like a Kennedy!!!
“Since no response would ever truly make you happy…” Snot true at all.
“Hatred?” No. I don’t think I “hate” anyone or anything. Its too broad and meaningless. I prefer to hone my frownee-face thoughts to weaponry that can cut the heart out of a matter.
Maybe “passion?” Possibly “wicked frownee-faced passion” But hatred is so… primitive.
Rob, per your argument, not only must the entire Pennsylvanie State University but shut down but also the entire State of Pennsylvania, since it is a public University of the State of Pennsylvania.
However, Pennsylvania is part of the United States of America. Therefore, per your logic, the entire United States of America, including all citizens, and residents, legal and illegal are responsible for the abuse of those 10 or 15 boys, and must therefore be shut down.
So, yes, let’s go ahead and shut down the United States, since it’s created the culture that led to Jerry Sandusky’s abuse. And, no, that’s not an over reaction at all. It is completely reasonable.
LOL…did you ever see the Animal house scene that sort of sounds like this extrapolation?
Just forward to 1:25 point to cut to the chase. You just gotta watch!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROxvT8KKdFw
This fixation on the Penn State football team is creepy.
If you had genuince concern about abused children and not some weird fixation against Penn State football, you would be far more bothered by the thousands of children abused by Catholic priests than the 10 or 15 abused by Jerry Sandusky.
K….dude….see….I though like the topic at hand is like all explained in like the thread’s title: “Open Thread: Should Penn State’s Football Team Be Shut Down?” or “Open Thread: Like Should Penn State’s Football Team Be All Like Shut Down-n-Stuff?”
So like when the Catholic Church abuse is all like of focus n stuff…shoot me a tweet and then I can be all like “priests suck” n stuff like thaaaht.
And like OMG!!! Sorry dude! Didn’t mean to be all like “creepy” and stuff by talking about Penn State. This whole “topic and subject” thing went SHOOOH….right over my head in school. Someone should really call those court dudes in PA, cuz it sounds like they should let Mr sandusky go!
YAY!! “Let Sandusky Go!” Woooooooo!
Wrong. The topic is abuse of children. What is being done here is ignoring the thousands of abuse victims, for some really weird reason, and focusing on these 10 or 12.
There have been a good dozen articles here on the abuse of 10 or 12 boys by Jerry Sandusky, with a strong response while the thousands of boys abused by countless Catholic priests continues to get ignored.
So, yes – the response to these 10 or 15 boys being abused, while ignoring the thosands of boys abused is seriosly weird, creepy.
This fixation on the Penn State football team is creepy.
If you had genuince concern about abused children and not some weird fixation against Penn State football, you would be far more bothered by the thousands of children abused by Catholic priests than the 10 or 15 abused by Jerry Sandusky.
Interesting response – and one that is quite dismissive!
“If you had genuine concern… “? Did I just read that? Did I just see someone dismiss matters with that level of indifference and disregard?
OK Eric – lets take the bigger picture then! Lets open up the whole can of worms and see Just who the creepy people are! I hope you aint easily creeped out!
What is your take on the Poly Prep abuse case which is so PSU and ongoing! It’s sports based – Institutional – and the legal manoeuvring is legion. Anything creepy there? Anything worth noting?
How about some other institutional failures – The Boy Scouts Of America – and the recent revelations of the files that show they Knew all about some scout masters who had the whole organisation tied up in knots?
How about the Savitz case – and how that is now re-emerging from the shadows and may even be linked to Sandusky? Odd how Savitz was driving kids all the way to PSU and the first thing he did was introduce them to a Mr Sandusky! Nothing Creepy in the least – nothing odd or remotely odd in that two known sex offenders from very different backgrounds knowing each other and admiring each others prom dates!
Then of course you have the Infamous Boys Town and King cases – and why would John W. DeCamp be digging back into his files and wondering about all those phone calls from Pennsylvania and a name being mentioned over and over?
There is one disturbing factor in the work of John W. DeCamp – he made certain oblique references to a certain person in his Book (NO name), and others were making reference to it before any investigation connected to PSU was under way! People coming to Nebraska because the Nittany Lions were playing were making the links and letting him know the name – and he just couldn’t figure out how they knew and were making the links. Creepy?
Fixations are creepy? Who’s Fixations creep you out the most?
How dare you dismiss legitimate concerns, built upon hard experience and which are more than valid!
But then again , some of us have been creeping people out for decades dealing with people who creep out of the dark to whisper the truth as the band plays on and the crowd roars!
I’m amazed at the Fixation that so many have had on JoePa Paterno – and it’s creepy how that works.
Maybe if you thought how creepy it is to dismiss matters in the way you have, you may (though I believe it completely unlikely) have a better grasp of the reality that so many have been dealing with for decades, and which some have had a glimpse of as the rubber neck and drive by.
What’s creepy is how so many just want to go back and have a quiet life – not have to deal with so many realities – just turn on the TV, lie back in their lazy boy and remote control reality as they scream at the TV and act like coach!
That’s creepy! Watching people ape supposed role models they know nothing about and have never met! Grown men really should know better!
Thousands vs. 15. THOUSANDS.
What’s creepy, weird, strange, whatever you want to call it is that there wasn’t/isn’t NEARLY as much outrage over the many THOUSANDS (we don’t even know the total number) of boys abused by Catholic priests for DECADES as there is over these 15.
Yeah, this is bad but that is thousands of times worse because it involves probably thousands, at least hundreds of times more children. Tihs comes down to shielding/protecting the Church’s abuse, when the response/reaction/demands are compared. THAT is what is creepy.
So now it’s 15 Vs THOUSANDS?
Nah – it’s Media Vs Reality!
You seem to forget that their are some Creepy attitudes to religion in the USA – and even that constitutional thing about separation out Church and State! The 15 are interesting because they are central to the Church of Football and Sports!
It’s a nice Microcosm and worked example of reality – It’s just creepy how the sports fans don’t want anything to get in the way of the new season!
“So now it’s 15 Vs THOUSANDS?”
Uh, yes. Exactly. It’s been in the MEDIA for many years now. Why is this surprising?
“The 15 are interesting because they are central to the Church of Football and Sports!”
Interesting?
Zoo animals are “interesting.” Insects are “interesting.” Children being abused are not. It’s sick and disgusting.
Hating sports or football is within everyone’s rights, but this over the top reaction (compared the reaction toward the Church’s far, far, far worse abuse) is not about the kids; it’s about hating sports. Children should be protected, not used
“Children should be protected, not used”
Exactly! Now let’s alter the institutional tools and culture that make the abuse possible.
Institutional factors are nearly always immense and well guarded out of self preservation of the individuals, enablers and the house. The church has its warriors making changes there.
The NCAA will address this. They WILL do something. The people of State College and PSU will likewise do something. But ALL will only go just so far.
As usual Eric you show just why you are such an interesting personality on these boards.
So you snip a phrase here, snip a word there and then add some patented Eric dressing, toss it all together and serve it up as a supposed wholesome salad for all to consume.
Hating sports or football is within everyone’s rights, but this over the top reaction (compared the reaction toward the Church’s far, far, far worse abuse) is not about the kids; it’s about hating sports. Children should be protected, not used
Fascinating twist on the whole mess.
Lets get a few facts clear – Clergy abuse ( and that is not just the Catholic Church) has involved both boys and girls who are now grown.
You keep mentioning the figures 12 and 15 in relation to PSU. The last count concerning all reported cases was double both of those figures. It’s worth considering that a number of cases are likely to fall under a statute of limitations in both Criminal and Civil Law, and that acts as a disincentive for many to come forward who will not gain, other than for their truth to be heard and recognised.
You are fixated on the creepy view that it’s all about people hating sport – and abusing abused children by using them to further an anti-sport agenda?
Well, let me help you out on that one. Myself and many others are interested in making sure that lessons are learned across all institutions and action taken to make prevention better, and when reporting is required flawlessly! It has nothing to do with sports – it also covers schools and all educational institutions – any and all organisations that deal with children – the medical industry from Hospitals to Professional Regulatory Bodies – All areas of law enforcement from the local to the national and federal, and even the Global through Interpol and other such agencies. Joe public are also involved so that they know how to react when they see issues – hear of issues – and above all else if a child tells them of issues they react the right way and don’t get caught in the headlights of the Institutional Floodlighting!
There is a regulator here called the NCAA – and they have a rule book – the rules have been broken – sanction is required. PSU agreed to that when they signed up to be Regulated by the NCAA. That is just one spoke in a very big wheel.
Why do you keep demanding that Sports, or rather football is the big wheel, when rationally it’s just a minor spoke and not that important when you look at the big picture.
You have a fixation on the church scandals and have even gotten so carried away as to claim that this thread, Headed “Open Thread: Should Penn State’s Football Team Be Shut Down?” is not about the PSU mess, but child abuse in general…. and then you are telling others they are fixated, creepy and sports haters.
Maybe you need to take a break?
“Fascinating twist on the whole mess.”
It’s the reality. You call yourself MediaHound. Compare this reaction to the countless incidents involving priests abusing children, mainly boys. There is no comparison, and certainly the different on this board it’s truly disproportionate.
Some of Sandusky’s victims are also now grown.
“You keep mentioning the figures 12 and 15 in relation to PSU. The last count concerning all reported cases was double both of those figures.”
Whatever the number is, multiply it by several hundred at least or a thousand (or more) and you get the number abused by Catholic priests.
“You are fixated on the creepy view that it’s all about people hating sport – and abusing abused children by using them to further an anti-sport agenda?”
Considering the comparative number of children involved, that is clearly factual.
“Myself and many others are interested in making sure that lessons are learned across all institutions and action taken to make prevention better, and when reporting is required flawlessly! It has nothing to do with sports . . .
Then, why so much more mention of Penn State’s football program and NONE of the Catholic Church, where hundreds of a thousand more children were abused?
“Why do you keep demanding that Sports, or rather football is the big wheel, when rationally it’s just a minor spoke and not that important when you look at the big picture.”
See the above statement.
“You have a fixation on the church scandals and have even gotten so carried away as to claim that this thread, Headed “Open Thread: Should Penn State’s Football Team Be Shut Down?” is not about the PSU mess, but child abuse in general…. and then you are telling others they are fixated, creepy and sports haters.”
No, it’s a matter of proportional reasonableness. The law calls it “counts”, and it reacts and punishes the guilty based on the number of crimes committed.
That’s the difference between us. To me, it doesn’t matter whether it is General Motors, the Boy/Cub/Girl Scouts, the Teamsters Union, the Catholic Church, or any other organization. My outrage would be hundreds or thousands of times more if they abused hundreds of thousands of times more children than a single football coach.
“Maybe you need to take a break?”
Maybe you need to learn that all children should be protected, not just the ones abused by football coaches.
Oh Eric – you are off on one aren’t you?
That’s the difference between us. To me, it doesn’t matter whether it is General Motors, the Boy/Cub/Girl Scouts, the Teamsters Union, the Catholic Church, or any other organization. My outrage would be hundreds or thousands of times more if they abused hundreds of thousands of times more children than a single football coach.
Eric – I find it interesting that you have a “Variable” scale of rage and play the numbers game – so much for 15 and a higher amount for 1000.
That is the difference between you and so many others. Personally I have the same level of rage when the count gets higher than Zero!
That way you don’t act or say things which may diminish, demean or dismiss the experience that people have had or the lives they have now! It’s such a poor message to send to people – you count less because you are in a smaller group and so what has happened to you only gets a Percentage Response! Yuck – Double Yuck – wash my mouth out with Carbolic Soap YUCK!
Thank heavens you are not in the field of support and counselling survivors. I hate to think of how your percentage response would only cause more damage!
Stop judging others by your own standards – cos we are not willing to play a numbers game and rage only in a proportionate – percentile manner – and reduce victims and survivors to a numbers game!
I heard a real sick Joke only yesterday, which actually sums it up! What is the difference between an alcoholic and paedophile? Nothing! 1 is too many and a million not enough! … and that came from the mouth of a Survivor who is unfortunately back on the squeeze as he fights to live 100%!
“That is the difference between you and so many others. Personally I have the same level of rage when the count gets higher than Zero!”
Turns out those thousands of victims are people, human beings, not just numbers. Each person counts for something. It’s not a game. Sorry, harming thousands of human beings is simply far worse than 20, even if the 20 were harmed by a football coach.
“Thank heavens you are not in the field of support and counselling survivors. I hate to think of how your percentage response would only cause more damage!”
I DO counsel survivors among others actually (albeit not for a living). Counseling thousands, it turns out, is a much bigger job than counseling 20.
Multiply Sandusky’a 20 (or more) victims by the sets of parents, siblings, grandparents, spouses, and other relatives. Now do the same thing with the thousands of victims and see how many individual human lives are affected. Then, compare the number of individual human lives affected.
“Stop judging others by your own standards – cos we are not willing to play a numbers game and rage only in a proportionate – percentile manner – and reduce victims and survivors to a numbers game!”
Very few societies don’t consider sexual abuse of children to be one of the worst possible offenses. Thus, the standard I am using here is accepted by almost everyone. Individual human beings are involved. It’s not (shouldn’t) devolve to a golden opportunity to release years of resentment against college football.
It’s not (shouldn’t) devolve to a golden opportunity to release years of resentment against college football.
Hmmm – it seems that you are using college sports to release years of resentment against the Catholic Church – in fact you are willing to say people count less if they have been subjected to abuse and it has not been through the Catholic Church. Such odd Logic(?) and Reasoning(?).
So it’s still the numbers game and the primary concern comes in at the end – Football and college sports gets different treatment because the numbers game makes the Catholic Church a bigger target. … and now it’s a Golden Opportunity too? You seem to have a few issues there around sport, whilst others have a non-essentialist view which looks at abuse, abusers and facilitators.
Oddly – you miss some simple issues due to number and sports blindness. I’m not in the USA, have no affiliation or cultural inculcation with the US college system or college sports. Why would I have, as you hint, some form of bizzare resentment to US college sports culture and Football in particular? You may have to revisit your world view which appears quite limited and abnormally focused.
I’m also a gay man who likes buff bods, lycra and flexing muscle. Given that, you would expect me to be calling for the preservation of sports culture, especially on TV, so I could enjoy some sportsman porn in the privacy of my own home?
I am very much aware of how “Group Think” works and how social psychology works and even gets manipulated on mass to allow amazingly unthinkable things. Experience and research shows that once people accept roles within a group they get played out, and that acceptance of roles and attitudes can lead to very unpleasant places and patterns of conduct. When that occurs you have only two options – break up the group or if that is not possible literally change the environment so that being supporting of that Group and the Group Think becomes unacceptable and even seen as antisocial.
I can’t see any rational way to Dismantle all of PSU, so there has to be internal change with an unequivocal message that makes the Group Think and group conduct that has gone before unacceptable and antisocial. That is not just the football team, it’s the whole structure of PSU from Trustee to Janitors, from Professors to the lowliest and most halting of student. Due to the whole dynamic of what has happened at PSU and how it has been facilitated, the NCAA are in the best position for the job – they are the best tool!
As I said last year, the whole mess at PSU has all the hall marks of a Cult Collapse – and with such collapses they are not instant, they take place over time. Cults start with Behaviour and Extricating people and whole groups from them starts with Behaviour – and then you get changes in Information, Thinking and Emotions.
I’m still amazed at students for PSU who were on camera saying that the Abused who had come forward were lairs and setting out to damage and destroy PSU. The rage that came when Paterno was fired – the violence – the aggression – you seem to assume that the mind set that made such language and behaviour permissible has evaporated and gone. That is just Magical Thinking. Such Group Think does not vanish, it has to be ironed out and removed over time through environmental change – social change – and unfortunately there will be a notable few who lack the capacity to get out of that mind set. Change also needs to put in place safeguards against such people long term. The reports of harassment and threat against victims from the wider community has little to do with Football, but it was facilitated by the PSU culture that the whole community had been infected with and bought into. I’m not aware of prosecutors having to lay in plans for Witness protection and relocation when it comes to victims of Catholic Clergy. NOt only did they have to do that with PSU – they did have to relocate and protect witnesses – the victims! Talk about a culture of Victim Blaming – Victim Shaming – Denial. It’s a perfect Microcosm of Rape Culture and all it’s manifestations.
Evidently you are wedded to the idea that The Catholic Church needs to be changed – but you will just have to forgive those of us who don’t do the numbers game and percentile and proportionate rage. We want to see a social change where every victim counts equally and the Behaviour issues from any Individual, group or institution is where that change starts – and acts Long Term.
You keep making it all about supposed prejudice towards football and college sports. You may need to look at your own prejudices and consider why you behave that way. Your behaviour, the information you keep presenting, your thinking and your emotions seem to be focused exclusively in one area. As I said last year, It’s important that people don’t fall into the cult of the victim. Making out that Victims of the Catholic Church are more important in any way compared to other victims is a very odd mind set which is a direct analogue of the thinking in Happy Valley which placed one group over another and empowered abuse.
You may need to revisit your views as to the numbers game and what you seem to see as the Golden Calf.
I wonder what your views would be if It was a nominally Catholic University such as Notre Dame du Lac?
THANK YOU!
“But PSU is fundamentally rotten, thus rotten leaders have no hesitation to bathe in their own stench. Students with with no character in their persons riot for their insane Generals and embrace the destruction of the boys.”
What?
“If the currently-signed scholarship footballers had one ounce of integrity, they would leave as well and demand (on camera) that their scholarship be honored. And if they didn’t get a default scholarship because PSU has no integrity, they ought to leave and find another way.”
That’s very easy for you to say. It’s not you who’s throwing away your one big chance at a college education over something you had no control.
“I find it fully sad that adult American integrity has decayed to such an extent that we don’t see leadership as being responsible and accountable for everything that happens under its roof. And now to think that the same leadership was directly involved in coverup that cost boys their sane and prosperous lives is beyond my comprehension.”
They are responsible, but you’re also holding students that had nothing to do with it responsible which is wrong.
“To think that the leaders, faculty, students and athletes were/are not devastatingly outraged so as to call for the removal of football is blowing my mind.”
Probably because they recognise that “removing football” wouldn’t help anyone given that “football” didn’t cause the problem in the first place. Say Sandunsky and Paterno had been celebrated professors of sociology. Would you be demanding that they “remove sociology”?
Say Sandunsky and Paterno had been celebrated professors of sociology. Would you be demanding that they “remove sociology”?
If that was the case, I doubt there would be more than 2 or 3 column inches!
Having been dealing with abuse cases for over 25 years, I can see the old patterns playing out. It’s fascinating how when supposed justice has been done and that fat has been chewed enough so many want to start pushing it all aside. It’s old news – it’s been gone over – time to move on!
…. until next time! And there will be a next time! … the reason for the next time is east to grasp. People expect other people to do the learning and safeguarding. It’s always SEP – Someone Else’s Problem.
“They are responsible, but you’re also holding students that had nothing to do with it responsible which is wrong.”
Not wrong at all. the NCAA has already closed Div 1 programs for much much less than rape in the very locker room of the team.
When a bomb goes off, people get hurt. These players signed-onto a sh*t organization. They too were fooled. To continue the charade any longer is ludicrous.
If they are truly as hot the athletes as they had to be to be chosen by PSU, thet ought to have no problem finding another place. The NCAA can actually make that happen. If its the education they are there for (LMFAO at THAT thought), PSU can easily afford that.
In the real world, damage does happen. Innocent people can and do get….oh…..wait…..”innocent”…”innocent people”… “Innocent people getting hurt…”
HOLY fkg lion pooh!!!! Are there values and weights assigned to the type of “innocent people?”
There are “The boys”……….let’s see………innocent……….but poor………damaged……….no future………..mentally fkd for life……….
Then thars Billy Longpass……………top top player from Bugjuice, Nebraska…………was banking on a full-life via football………………already driving a booster’s BMW 520i………………..REALLY has a future in the NFL…I mean NO ONE is doubting this kids arm!! And sh*t………as Houlihan says: “removing football int gonna help anyone.” So if football stays, Billy Longpass can get that full NFL life he’s been building since he was 3-yo!!
Seems pretty clear to me. Don’t shut down an freakin thing in State College. Players’ lives are clearly too valuable. Even though the NCAA can actualize ramifications and punish the institution for cover-up…some people’s lives are simply FAR too substantial to sacrifice.
Yup….the way is clear. Sac the raped guys. There’s nothing in their future.
I couldn’t read that….
I think their program should be shut down for a couple of seasons. I don’t believe the NCAA should be doing it though. They are not a trustworthy organization unless money is involved. The players should be allowed to transfer with no penalty. After SMU got the death penalty, 130 recruiters came to Dallas so these players will get other opportunities at other schools. Shutting it down will give PSU the chance to revive itself out of a corrupt cultural where football was the most important thing
“It’s fascinating how when supposed justice has been done and that fat has been chewed enough so many want to start pushing it all aside. It’s old news – it’s been gone over – time to move on!”
Its true even in the unreported cases. “Enough damage has been done…” “We’ve all been through enough.” “The legal route would be way over the top.” Little Richie will get over this and move on…we should ALL move on.” “Don’t mention it around her ever again…it wall all fade into her lost memories.”
I have seen that scenario play-out far (as in SO freakin far) too many times.
People are only willing to endure a limited amount of inconvenience, pain, disruption and expense when a child is raped. From my vantage-point, the apparent severity rarely influences decisions on how to procede. “Just give us our ‘normal’ back.”
Even mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters, all have a mental image as to how much they are willing to sacrifice for the child. They know it going into the case, and then that figure only diminishes from there. When limits are realized, efforts collapse like card-walls.
From the beginning, the loved ones mourn for normalcy lost and a desire a complete end to discomfort. Then you start seeing little pieces of the child being sacrificed for the comfort and convenience of others. She ends up watching her assigned protectors flee for cover. Eventually, she knows she was betrayed. She knows who betrayed her and why. She stares in stunned amazement when the adults around her rationalize and position “what was all for the best” into bites they can hold down…but she will get to vomit them out as only a matter of time.
Anyone who’s not pro-death penalty, I strongly urge you to read Zimbardo’s “The Lucifer Effect” to see how insidious group think is in institutions. Firing the bad apples won’t cut it. As of now, Penn State football is a bad barrel. It HAS to go. At least for a time.
Yup PM – it would be worth while a great many people educating themselves into the nature and operation of group psychology.
The Lucifer Effect is a good primer.
And I remain floored! Fully disappointed and disillusioned with a society that can’t just point a mutherfkg finger at evil and call it “Evil.”
Throughout time, good and evil have been distinct and empowered according to values of the host society.
Today, this horse-sht, kill-the-church first, blame men first, blame old convention first, limp-wrist society won’t call evil by its name. Fassion demands certain bashing and altering of reality be completed in order to put out fires and re-direct accountability. Mamby-pamby rules. Conviction to right and good must die. How dare conventions of good and evil cast any shadow of inherent, natural judgement on anything!!
“Oh….thats not a sick organization! No….its a collection of sexually challenged individuals exploring and seeking support from the structure around them. The ‘victims?’ There are no victims anymore…they are those who just did not fully understand the new dynamic.”
And in the 53 posts above we have people scraping for technical diversion and people having to argue that raping children is fundamentally wrong.
As Jack Nicholson once said: “Go sell crazy somewhere else…we’re all full-up here.”
I am conflicted.
There’s a part of me that agrees with the idea of shutting down the PSU football program because the thought of a hundred thousand people filling that stadium and cheering for a team that represents the power and prestige that allowed the sexual abuse of children to continue unabated for so long makes me want to vomit.
Then, there’s another part of me…the part that knows exactly how those boys felt because I experienced a similar kind of pain and carry around the same kind of shame. This part of me wants to burn the stadium to the ground…then dig up the ashes and burn them again. I want the program and its symbols of power and prestige wiped of the face of the earth.
Unfortunately, I don’t believe the PSU football program will be shut down. I believe that they’ll be required to honour the victims in some way but at the end of the day the football program and the revenue it generates will continue on.
My only remaining wish is that the football stadium be renamed in honour of those children whose well-being mattered less than power, prestige and money.
My nomination for the new name?
How about the “Sexual Abuse Awareness Stadium”?
Off the top of my head – “Angelou” stadium after Dr Maya Angelou? She knows why the caged bird sings!
“Caged Bird Stadium”?
“See, you don’t have to think about doing the right thing. If you’re for the right thing, then you do it without thinking.” – Maya Angelou
If it’s given any other name it has to have significance that won’t be forgotten. How about “Penitence Stadium”? That may get the message across long term. Lessons should never be forgotten.
The NYTimes reports this morning that the statue of Paterno will be removed.
Does,this sweep the memory of Sandusky under the rug?
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