Danny explores the idea that men are somehow both expected to behave like mindless sex-obsessed animals, and yet are also held responsible for the incredibly high standards of beauty and grooming some women try to live up to.
This post is a result of Joanna Schroeder asking me to elaborate on the mixed signals I mentioned in the comments over at her post, Do Men Really Care About ‘Down There’.
A version of this originally appeared at my blog, Danny’s Corner.
I was sitting in the car about to go into the store yesterday evening when a woman that works in another department at my company was coming out. I’ll come right out and say that I think this woman is sexually attractive. Two things crossed my mind.
First this woman does not fit the image of what I, as a man, am told is sexy. She is black, doesn’t have the so-called correct proportions that make a woman sexy (in her case that would mean she doesn’t have the “exotic” features that are associated with black women), speaks her mind, and does not fall in the age range of the women we are told are attractive (she is nearly twice my age, I’m 31 for reference).
Second, while I think this woman is sexually attractive I did not have to fight off the lustful desire to have sex with her by any means necessary that men are stigmatized with. So I’m wondering about the mixed signals we get about our sexuality.
In one respect men are shown images of scantly clad women showing off almost every part of their body (while leaving some to the imagination, sometimes). These women are usually cut from a very exclusionary mold. Supposedly women are only sexy if they have a certain body shape, are a certain weight, are a certain skin color, have no disabilities, fall in the age range so that she could pass for barely legal, and only act in a traditionally feminine manner.
In order to be considered “a real man”, one must have such a woman (not just be with but have as in own, control, and treat like property). This is why a lot of the women you see on calendars, on the runway, and in porn come from this mold.
However at the same time media tells men that we are supposed to go for anything with a warm wet hole that can give us pleasure (but with enough homophobia and shame over sex toys to remind us that that warm wet hole must be female genitalia). It says that men are horn dogs that will have sex with any woman that is willing (and her not willing is no reason to end the pursuit for the goal).
I recall a line from the movie Hackers. Angelina Jolie’s character said something to the effect of, “Men have larger brains than dogs so they won’t go around humping everything in sight.” Career, education, friends and even family are not enough to stop us from doing whatever it takes to reach the promised land. And of course this leads to the blanket assertion that men are pigs, dogs, jerks, gigolos, womanizers, horn dogs, perverts, lechers, creeps, etc…
So apparently we are supposed to be extremely picky and selective about the people women we find sexually attractive to the point that we exhibit all sorts of -ist behaviors… but at the same time we’re supposed to be so overcome with lust that we just can’t stop ourselves from shoving our cocks in any and every pussy we come across even when our “partner” doesn’t want to engage in sexual activity.
And simply ignoring these signals won’t cut it. Even if my own male sexuality defies both of these messages I still have a problem with them. Once people know that I am male, chances are they will assume that my sexuality is either that of exclusionary to the point of being offensive or inclusive to the point of wanting to bang every woman in site.
Its worth noting that while these two signals happen at the same time and seem to contradict each other they are both part of why male sexuality is thought to be inherently filthy and vile. On one side you have people calling you a slave to your lust. On the other you have people saying your taste in women is discriminating to the point that you’re an asshole.
Despite there being several men who have sexual tastes like mine that don’t abide by the established norms, there is still a problem with them being established norms. First, these norms undermine men and pigeon hole us into the worst image possible either as -ist hatemongers or rapists waiting to strike.
It’s misandry plain and simple. It’s also extremely sexist towards women to imply that in the eyes of men they are expected to conform to a certain image in order to get our attention. These things must be eliminated.
What do you think? Do men exist in a strange double-bind wherein they’re expected to lust and chase after anything that moves, and yet they’re vilified for having such exacting standards for women that women end up feeling unable to please men?
Photo of Beware of Dog courtesy of Shutterstock
About Danny
Just wanted to add that this post was the result of Joanna asking me to elaborate on the mixed signals I mentioned in the comments over at her post, Do Men Really Care About ‘Down There’.
Also this post is an edited version of one originally release at my own blog (that unfortunately can’t pull up to get a link to right now on a count of being at work).
I think an issue that needs to be addressed is the idea that immediate physical attraction whatever that form might be whether it’s to an elderly black woman or a 20 year old white woman implies a set of values and motivations which are antithetical to intimacy and emotional needs. “A warm hole” as so many put it. But I don’t think that that is true. You bring up porn which portrays people aggressively fucking each other. But then couples engage in aggressive sex as well. But I think porn often is designed with male emotional needs for intimacy in mind- its not often said but that doesn’t mean it is not true. So what do men want from sex? Well I’m going to go out of the limb here and say that men want is the connection of somebody wanting what they want. Which implies at least in theory that their needs are the same as the person they are having sex with.
I think an issue that needs to be addressed is the idea that immediate physical attraction whatever that form might be whether it’s to an elderly black woman or a 20 year old white woman implies a set of values and motivations which are antithetical to intimacy and emotional needs.
That needs to be addressed alright. We have somehow come to the point where when a man expresses immediate attraction there is a presumption that its all lust and there is no possible way that there could be a desire for intimacy and emotional connection. Yes there might be an immediate physical desire but that does not mean that there can be no other desires at work.
You bring up porn which portrays people aggressively fucking each other. But then couples engage in aggressive sex as well.
Precisely. But for some reason the idea of watching the aggressive fucking in porn is taken to mean that one wants nothing but aggressive fucking. I know that’s not the case with my porn watching. I’d very much like to have a relationship based on more than just aggressive fucking. But my desire for fucking is much more easily simulated (through porn) than my desires for emotional connection. (Mind you that’s just me.)
Well I’m going to go out of the limb here and say that men want is the connection of somebody wanting what they want. Which implies at least in theory that their needs are the same as the person they are having sex with.
And I think this is often lost in a rush to declare that when it comes to sex they want a woman that will lie there like a dead fish or a woman that enjoys being used like a sex toy.
“The problem seems to be the “what” of what is being wanted is often just off kilter enough (or misinterpreted enough) that things fall apart.”
I think the problem is that things are misinterpreted and not that things are different. I believe that this has less to do with a particular man/woman way of thinking and more to do with an especially American mentality that sees things in black and white terms.
“Which is probably why porn and erotica are so different. Porn is rarely about a storyline of happy ever after. It’s most usually about an enthusiastic partner or partner wanting what the man wants.”
Erotica isn’t necessarily about a happily ever after either. And I think there is the tendency toward black and white thinking when we say Porn isn’t about a story line. Actually in a way it is. Have you ever seen porn with story lines? It’s terrible. They fall flat because they are never believable. But in as much as porn convincingly portrays mutual desire then it is a real (or seems real) if somewhat limited “story”. Most men don’t want just Porn they want the whole erotic adventure as well. But porn is porn and assuming that a fantasy implies a narrowness is actually a narrowing way of thinking of it.
“Erotica involves sex, but it also usually involves a male finding the female so entirely desirable that he’s willing to love only her. Women wish to be special, not interchangeable. That our minds, or hearts, or loins are so amazing, so powerful, so intriguing that this beast of a man will want us and only us.” – This is a generalization about erotica, of course. I think men want this as well. I think that calling casual sex “interchangeable” is implying that the desire for casual sex is not about an authentic connection with another human being and I want to undermine that assumption. I also think that there is something selfish about this beast of a man who wants us and only us fantasy but I imagine you have thought about that so i wont insult your intelligence on that issue. However I think we as human being can transcend that selfishness and that begins with opening ourselves up to the possibilities of the other.
What I look at porn, I look at it to get turned on sexually, masturbate and orgasm. I’m not there to look for romance, a love story, etc because that is already in my head. I need help with the visuals, I don’t care for the story. Besides I find thinking about romance makes me feel LONELIER and overall worse, I only like to think of it and watch romance stuff when I have a partner or a mad crush on someone.
But for people to assume this is what men want ONLY is absolutely mindnumbingly stupid, it’s only a PART of what the men (and women) who look at porn want. I don’t have time to sit there reading hundreds of pages of a romance novel, it’d take me a day just to reach the end if I am lucky and my mind would be so exhausted I wouldn’t want to jerk off anyway. With porn I can fast forward to what I like to see, get off quickly and then go about my day.
“Women also want to feel desired and yes, loved more than all the other women they believe their men are attracted to. Which is probably why porn and erotica are so different. Porn is rarely about a storyline of happy ever after. It’s most usually about an enthusiastic partner or partner wanting what the man wants. ”
“Erotica involves sex, but it also usually involves a male finding the female so entirely desirable that he’s willing to love only her. Women wish to be special, not interchangeable. That our minds, or hearts, or loins are so amazing, so powerful, so intriguing that this beast of a man will want us and only us.”
Every woman is replaceable, there is no magic one love that I’ve seen anyone have. I’ve seen people remarry, etc. Now you can be in love with one person at a time and continue that for your entire life, but it’s not set in stone and it’s not universal. If they die there is no guarantee you won’t fall for another, I have never seen evidence of a pairbond/mate until death attribute in humans overall. These women want to feel more desired than the people in porn? Well this applies for SOME relationships: Maybe the women need to step it up a notch, it could be as simple as being more enthusiastic during sex or being more positive/positively encouraging the partner. Maybe the woman is still the most desired and the porn is just a quick way to get off without bothering the woman he loves.
Why do some women in relationships read romance novels, 50 shades of grey etc if they want to be the most desired? Isn’t that a bit hypocritical, these women fantasizing about another relationship/man/woman if that floats their boat. How is that any better than men looking at porn? You may talk about how romantic n pure erotica is but it’s still fantasizing about others and so I find it strange to hear the line about women wanting to not be interchangeable when these women are interchanging various characters from erotica n romance novels. Yet romance is seen as great, you can even read it at work without hassle but porn…well you bust out porn at work and that’s sexual harassment lawsuit waiting to happen, 2 forms of fantasy material yet one is degrading, negative, objectifying, yet the other gets off with a clean slate.
I think the major flaw women commenting on porn make is that they ASSUME porn isn’t about a story, umm, are you inside the guys head? I can tell you that what I fantasize about can have fairly intricate stories but it’s what I add in. There are stories in porn, usually popular fantasies like schoolgirl (reminds us of our own teen years, not as depraved as many think), 3somes, etc. There are stories there, but I think it’s just not seen as acceptable by some women so it’s seen as lesser to the almight romance, one love for all your life, the mighty hero who saves the woman, risking his life because her heart, body, vagina is the best in the world and he’s willing to fight the Sultan of some random country that kidnapped her to get her back so they can live happily ever after and have lil children, and those children have lil children, and fairies n rainbows come out yay!! Compare that to the stories of the guy new to college and he goes to a party, 2 women are all over him and it’s on like donkey kong, he feels amazing pleasure and has a rare experience. Why is the latter not as good as the former? Why do we HAVE to be monogymous, HAVE to fall in love and romance is the almighty feeling whilst lust is the evil dirty feeling?
Not everyone wants the same connection, not all of us want to at THIS stage of our lives settle down. If 2-3 beautiful women wanted to fuck me right now vs settling down n having kids n all the hassles of family, I think at this stage of my life I’d tarp up (put on a condom) and have some amazing 3-4way sex. In a few years I might choose the family. Neither is the right or wrong choice, the former however is far more rare and even more of a temptation to take since it’d be easier to find a single partner to settle down with.
Btw, are you sure all women want to be “special” in the manner you describe? I’ve known women who did NOT want to settle down and were quite happy being single, or having casual relationships, some in fact ran for the hills when the guy got too attached n thought of her as “special”.
Archy–Being replacable and interchaneable are not the same thing. Of course everyone is replacable. Relationships don’t always work out. People die. People move on. Feelings fade. Interchangeable is more about the CURRENT situation. In a relationship, at any moment, no one wants to be interchangeable. Even men want to feel special, attractive, and desirable. I am far more enthusiastic sexually and in my relationship when I feel special. I’ve been with men who have made me feel like the only woman in the world. Who made it clear that to them, I was the most beautiful woman in the world. The sex was mind-blowing, adventerous, and very frequent. We could even watch porn together without me feeling insecure. Then I’ve been with men who have made me feel like any other girl, been overly critical, made snide remarks, and leered at other women. I lost interest in sex very quickly. I became less enthusastic and sought sex elsewhere–in fantasies, and sometimes, in real life (I was always honest about it, though). It can lead to a vicious cyle.
Feeling interchangeable is one of the very top reasons that I’ve rejected or ignored men who have come on to me or tried to date me. This is why cat calls, generic messages, focusing on types and traits, and being approached in certain stereotypical situations (as a waitress, as one of the few girls in a geeky setting, or striking up a conversation on a subway) doesn’t always work that well.
It’s interesting you feel non-changeable?/irreplaceable and special whilst watching porn with some of the guys. Thanks for the comment, it’s nice to know there are women like that out there that won’t see porn as interchangeable ladies. I think it’s important to note as you said how the partner treats you in the relationship. I’ve only felt special once really but she loved me for me, and in turn I loved her for her, the sheer level of joy just thinking about her, the fact that she was more beautiful than anyone I’d ever see was a really powerful thing. I guess feeling special is a mutual thing and a good sign of the health of the relationship.
Does hitting on a waitress at her job EVER work? Seems to me like heaps of people would try it and simply make her super defensive and on guard, I wouldn’t even bother because I’d feel it’d just piss her off to be guy number 55030 to ask her out.
My take on the “picky not picky” thing. I have met many many men in my day who talked about their standard of beauty for a GF, all while being quite wiling to have sex with less desirables (just not going out with them). It was unclear to me then, but perhaps more now that they might have actually liked the ones that were not so cute, but were embarassed to be seen with them due to social pressure.
Or maybe not. It seems, and I could be wrong, that the drive for sex from the male perspective is strong enough to overcome a lack of real attraction and/or affection? So I think that confuses a lot of women. It seems like a double bind for us too. Is he coming on to me because he actually finds me attractive/is affectionate towards me? Or is he just horny. It makes it hard to trust.
Then again, women do this too to a certain extent, but don’t often realize or admit it.
“Is he coming on to me because he actually finds me attractive/is affectionate towards me? Or is he just horny. It makes it hard to trust.” – Thank you for providing me this insight about women. I’ve thought of it as a possibility but I never knew if it was true. But I did go out on a date with a girl who told me that guys wouldn’t date her but they’d want to fuck her. She gave into the urges a lot but she felt bad about it as well.
Frankly I didn’t understand that at all. I mean if anything I am the opposite when it comes to casual sex I have to admit I have high standards when it comes to physical attraction but when it comes to a longer term relationship I am looking for a more mysterious spark.
And often, I assume that men and women both engage in flirting for both the “is this going somewhere” and the “I’m horny” perspective…
So what do you mean “coming on” to you. Do you mean if you just met a guy and he indicates a desire for casual sex that you are centrally concerned that maybe his desire is directed toward sex with anyone but not because he is attracted to you? Could you be able to imagine in that scenario that he could want sex with you for affection/attraction and you would be flattered or at least not offended?
No I got you. I think the same thing can be said for men as well. You can desire it but then feel that you haven’t achieved what you want out of it and that can lead to empty and even sometimes feeling like you used somebody. In fact there is a term for it. I thought it was called male sexual frisson but Google is not yielding any results on that one. But it’s a phenomenon that occurs mostly in men where the guy feels immediately a sense of shame and ill being after coitus. It’s actually very common but i can not find the wikipedia entry on it or remember the exact name of it.
My take on the “picky not picky” thing. I have met many many men in my day who talked about their standard of beauty for a GF, all while being quite wiling to have sex with less desirables (just not going out with them). It was unclear to me then, but perhaps more now that they might have actually liked the ones that were not so cute, but were embarassed to be seen with them due to social pressure.
Yes. That is an effect of “I have to date not just any woman but THE WOMAN”.
Or maybe not. It seems, and I could be wrong, that the drive for sex from the male perspective is strong enough to overcome a lack of real attraction and/or affection?
I think that holds for a limited time at best. I get the feeling that eventually that fire will die out and the lack of real affection will come to light.
So I think that confuses a lot of women. It seems like a double bind for us too. Is he coming on to me because he actually finds me attractive/is affectionate towards me? Or is he just horny. It makes it hard to trust.
I can understand that. There are plenty of guys that, upon having a woman make a move on them, wondering exactly what it is they thinking.
There are women I’d have sex with but wouldn’t date, usually if they have a few children (I am NOT ready for kids yet, she’d have to have me head over heels to accept a relationship with that kind of baggage). There are also women I just find barely tolerable, but I might still have sex with them just for the hell of it if I don’t get any play for a while, desperation maybe or just bored of masturbation. Women who may be a bit physically attractive but who’s personality isn’t very attractive. But I’ve thought about pursuing stuff with women like that and I haven’t got a clue how to say I only want a casual relationship with them without offending them and sounding like a jerk. They’re alright as friends, probably alright to have fun with, but just not compatible in the dating sense FOR ME. There are other guys though that see those women as dateable, because those women aren’t ugly or anything, but I just feel that sexual attraction without the extra intimacy involved with feelings of love. Casual relationships run the risk of someone wanting more, and I don’t think I have the heart to break someone elses heart, it happened once and I felt like a superdupermega jerk because I didn’t have the same feelings back.
Here’s the kicker, I wouldn’t mind a casual relationship atm but I also do want a nice long-term relationship, love, etc. Some women I want a casual with, others I’d like a longer term relationship with which is much more rare since personality matters a lot, along with some degree of physical attraction. Not too mention that lil magical spark that gives me butterflies when I think of them and takes my mood to a whole new level of happy
. But quite frankly I take life as it comes now, if a casual arises, so be it, if love happens, hooray!
So long as you are completely transparent with those women you don’t want more with, then fine. The problem comes in when the men flirt enough, seduce enough so you think they actually find you attractive and like you! Pump then dump. This is why ladies often feel negatively towards the casual stuff I think.
“The problem comes in when the men flirt enough, seduce enough so you think they actually find you attractive and like you! Pump then dump. This is why ladies often feel negatively towards the casual stuff I think.”
On the flipside is it really fair for people to assume that flirting and showing interest is a sign they want a more serious relationship? Both have the responsibility to be open about their intentions but who is wrong and who is right if a guy flirts with a woman with the intention of just sleeping with her, and she thinks he wants more than that? At what point was he showing he wanted more? Sounds like sometimes these women are reading TOO MUCH into behavior, maybe just telling themselves the other wants more.
There are no guarantees of an emotional connection with flirting and sex to the point of dating, these women need to ask the guy where the relationship is heading before getting into bed if it bothers them that much, and hopefully the guys will say they just want casual upfront (and not cop the shaming for only wanting casual). If these women feel pumped n dumped then isn’t it THEIR problem for assuming the flirting and seduction means he wanted a relationship? Flirting and seduction to get you into bed still means you’re attractive to him, attractive enough to want to sleep with at least, but it’s common activity that can lead to outcomes like a relationship OR just casual sex with no commitment after. What it sounds like you’re saying is that these women are pretty bitter because the man didn’t commit to a relationship after sex, which sucks for them yeah but why the fuck does he cop the blame for that alone? No one is entitled to a relationship after sex. Both are at fault for failing to communicate what they desire, and she would need to stop expecting 1 outcome from an activity that has multiple outcomes. Kinda sounds like entitlement, maybe they wouldn’t feel so bitter if they stopped expecting this magical relationship after being flirted with.
Or do you mean those who say they love you to get you into bed, something far far more than just flirting and the night of seducing? Actually lying to you vs just flirting without stating what they want?
I find this entitlement and expectation of one outcome from flirting to be extremely troubling, I really hope I’ve misread because if this is a common expectation with women then ugh. It’s possible what I am thinking with this flirting n seducing, and what you’re talking about have a major difference in severity so I’m curious how much you mean.
Let’s say a friend flirts, touchs, kisses you (both mutually into it), it leads to sex that night, if that friend doesn’t want to date you sure it might hurt, be annoying, but if you didn’t ask what they wanted from the relationship before getting into bed then it’s partly your fault for failing to communicate. Why get bitter at THEM for it? This is the part I don’t understand, it’s the same sorta expectation bullshit that gets the stereotypical situation of the guy buying dinner but she doesn’t sleep with him, so then he gets bitter over it. Since when does flirting, seducing mean a person ONLY wants to date you?
Archy? First of all, duh to all your points and I wasn’t discounting any of them.
Secondly, is it at all possible to just listen to what I’m saying and say, “wow, could you tell me more? Sounds like you and some ladies really have had some uncomfortable experiences. Why do you think that happens?” instead of trying to negate everything? Cause it feels like it’s already turning into an argument about whose experience is valid.
Thirdly, I’m not talking about a bar/stranger/pick up situation where the goal is clearly sex, not relationships. I’m talking more about men you know that are friends or casual acquaintances that you may share an attraction with.
As to that.
Women, in America, and especially of a certain age, are pretty well culturated to hope for relationships and to wait on sex because waiting on sex establishes that yes, you’d like a relationship and that you are then able to observe behaviors on the man’s part that indicate interest. It also minimizes your reputation for easy sex, though there are women who enjoy casual, easy sex. This is a general statement, yes, but it bears out.
It is also a general observation about men that many are interested in getting laid as well as relationships, but that when offered casual sex, many are quite interested in it, and many also know behaviors that persuade women that they are good guys enough to sleep with.
There is a saying in the US that women trade sex for love and men trade love for sex. Thus I feel pretty good about the generalization, though of course you are right that there are myriad complexities within that and people vary and situations vary etc.
So, if a woman has a friend and he begins to seduce, flirt etc with her she may hope (based on some level of acculturation) that he’s interested in her on two levels not just one. Of course she should ask. Also, he should say! He may know that if he says “just casual” that it won’t happen. There is a complicated dance going on which could be simplified if both parties just were honest and willing to go without if the answers didn’t match up.
My experience and that of many women I know (and enough so that there are books written about it) is that casual sex winds up ruining friendships, that if you are hoping something leads to more, it’s impossible to know, and that sadly, waiting is one of the only ways to find out how invested the person is in you beyond sex.
Sad, but true. Many of us would enjoy having more sex with more people and still maintain good friendships with them.
I don’t think it’s entitlement to expect respect and friendship (which was present prior to the casual sex) after the sex. I don’t think a man should buy dinner expecting sex (as if it’s a bribe). I don’t think women should sleep with men expecting love. I do think that people do both these things and pretend that they are doing other things (buying dinner means he’s taking me out for a DATE…date means he likes me….).
My style of discussion usually involves adding another angle to increase the overall awareness n discussion of a topic, so I usually add extra bits in the hope it stirs up debate. It’s not meant to negate you, but simply add a different side, so there are 2 or more experiences, in case you didn’t know I am a real sucker for more info, more more more! I like to think up alternate aspects on a topic too, think outside the box at times, I usually find it get’s people thinking.
My idea of pump n dump seems a lil different I think to the one you’re talking about, seems there is that extra bit of bullshit artistry going on to persuade the women into sex. So it’s like Seduce,Lie,Pump n Dump whereas pump n dump to me is simply have a casual fling, leave in the morning.
Btw I accept your experience and know it is valid, not trying to say otherwise.
I realize that may sound harsh, just imagine though if you were the one only found tolerable? It just feels like it would hurt so much to know it, to be on the receiving end of it. Makes me shudder.
I agree with Julie. You have to be TRANSPARENT. If you just want casual, LET HER KNOW. If you find her barely tolerable, LET HER KNOW. If you can’t handle her children, LET HER KNOW. Don’t play with her feelings or ruin her perception of men because you want a few moments of pleasure.
Completely agreed here. Often, men feel like they have to pretend to be the nice guy whether that matches their intentions or not, assuming women will only be interested in sex if there’s a possibility of an emotional connection.
Meanwhile, I think women are often reluctant to admit they’re okay with casual sex just being casual sex sometimes.
I think there are probably some men also who are reluctant to say they only want casual sex because it’s often seen as a negative, shallow thing. Often I’ve seen discussions pretty much say the man is using the woman if he only wants sex and the relationship is just casual, that kind of shaming is stupid at best.
Right now after saying what I did earlier I feel like my opinion was hated and that I’m now just a dog…
Speaking from experience, I’ve been told “we can always be friends” and that casual sex won’t change things. It always does. Even when I didn’t want more, the men I knew would get very weird. So for me, and countless other women I know/have heard from, this is true. So it seems shallow, though it’s very hard to know what the “weird” is about for the men.
Feelings popup, it’s quite natural. Or one wants it more than the other, misses it if it doesn’t happen. Guess it depends on the couple (or whoever else is involved).
Define weird though? Is it possible that after you didn’t want anymore not only did you cut off the sex, but acted differently to them without meaning to which could either trigger them to act weird, or just make the situation weird?
So let’s say you gchat three times a week and have coffee once a week. And then after, you get blown off from chat and suddenly no coffee times are available. And when you ask what’s up you get the “nothing nothing busy” and then you just don’t hear from him.
Friendship, gone. Of course it’s possible the woman acted weird Archy, of course. I”m not dumb. I’m saying that I’ve had no problem being and maintaining friends with some casual folks. And the way others acted was hurtful and disrespectful when I didn’t demand or expect anything more from them.
I’d just ask that you believe it happens and that I know many people personally to whom it has happened and it may well have to do with the ability of men to completely compartmentalize their physical experiences to an extent where they feel no additional bond at all, perhaps even less due to culture norms, whereas I could maintain a friendship but felt closer to them (not love, or marriage, or a relationshp) but like a closer friend that I wanted to support more and that closeness mixed with the immediate intimacy of the sex, was obviously offputting to the man who acted like he wished it never happened.
And it’s quite offputting to care for someone, then feel closer to them in a particular way, and then get shut off cause they don’t want to deal with a deeper friendship.
And again, I am not talking about wanting to date them, just knowing more about them and feeling closer to them.
Ahh, cold shoulder etc. Btw I believe it happens, I was adding in combinations of behaviours I’ve seen to further the debate.
I wonder if women truly get attached quicker (which they seem to based on what I hear, I could be wrong though) because of biology (oxytocin/cuddle hormones seem to be a good theory) or are they simply cultured into that from birth or a mix of both?
I know some guys who quite frankly have been shit on over n over by women that they shut down their heart, board it up n put guard dogs with bee’s in their mouth to protect it. They’ll still have sex n stuff but intimacy, romance, love is a sore subject for them. I wonder if there are many women who are the same or if it’s men in particular that can compartmentalize. Some of these guys will run if the sex is cutoff as being friends with a woman can be quite risky in their mind, I know one at the moment basically has silly rule that he isn’t making any more new female friends if they don’t have sex with him, so turned off to women jerking him around it’s gone to extremes. He doesn’t see the value in female friendship as he’s been bitten over n over by female friends, but he’ll still have sex with them as it’s a mutually beneficial activity. That could explain some of the weird you talk about, guys that pretty much only trust women enough to have sex with them and feel they either have enough female friends (it sucks having lots of female friends and no fuckbuddy or gf if you can understand that so extra friends are not needed and can be a lil crushing on hope), or they just don’t trust them for friendship.
I’ve been through a period of time I didn’t trust women my age, I could have had sex with them but I was super cautious about being friends with them. Given the chance back then I probably would have left if the sex ran out unless that friend was quite special, decent and trustworthy. Luckily I did find some female friends my age that had those qualities and over time it allowed me to trust again but I do remember the feelings from before. I wonder if these guys also feel rejected after the sex dries up? There are many different reasons for the behaviour, but either way it sucks since you both lose a friend.
The one thing I have learned in life is bitterness is like an STI! Quite a few men have treated women like shit from bitterness over being treated like shit by women, and then quite a few of those women complete the cycle right back so the ball gets passed man to woman to man to woman and we end up with a whole bunch more “nice guys/girls”, playas, cheaters, etc.
Yeah, the stereotypical situation of men needing trust for a relationship but ok with casual sex and women needing trust inside a relationship for sex to happen is quite a weird setup.
From what I’ve read of oxytocin, oesterogen has a booster effect on it so it may cause women to feel even more attachment than men. But I am no expert on this, if anyone knows for certain lemme know:P
Welcome to a man’s world. The model of heterosexual marriage in mainstream American culture involves the woman constantly letting the man know that he is tolerable, but just barely, that her approval is conditional and subject to revocation at any time.
I could cite many examples to illustrate it, but I’m lazy, so here’s one: What’s the cultural resonance of the notion of a woman buying a man flowers (or performing some comparable act of contrition) to atone for something she’s done?
I actually kinda agree with Jonathon, I’m used to being told that…
I absolutely agree, Jonathan. And this attitude places the woman in the relationship on a pedestal in an unhealthy way. It makes men feel guilty of some unknown atrocity, or that a relationship (which should be MUTUAL) is instead a generous service that he may or may not deserve, and must therefore repay her generosity.
There are two complimentary posters going around the web.
1) Marilyn Monroe saying something to the effect of: “I have my ups and my downs. If you can’t handle my worst, you don’t deserve me at my best.”
2) At the same time, there’s one saying: “If she understands your faults, your anger, your mistakes, It’s apparent she’s a keeper. It’s also apparent you don’t deserve her.”
Both of these messages are considered messages of power, yet are heavily gender-biased. A woman is entitled to a man who puts up with her worst traits. But if a woman puts up with his worst traits, she is too good for him?
I’ll place the links here once I find them.
Reminds me of how often I hear of some men being changed by some women. There’s quite a lot of misandry out there thee days that it can be hard for men to feel tolerable, especially for the poor souls that put women up on a pedestal and feel like nothing compared to her. I guess this is a glimpse into what some of us men put up with?
http://www.girlsaskguys.com/Behavior-Questions/681911-what-about-these-two-images.html
I am an asshole at times, I’m use to being told or feeling I am intolerable. But you don’t need to be super best friends with someone to have sex with them, by intolerable I probably mean something less than you are assuming. Barely being tolerable for a relationship, and barely being tolerable as a person also is very different. I have friends I love to death, but I would find dating them intolerable. Dunno if that makes sense.
How do you tell someone you only want something casual, is there a polite way to do it? Until I figure out a way to do that without hurting someone I don’t think I’ll do the casual stuff. I really really don’t want to hurt anyone, I really don’t want people getting attached if I don’t feel the same, but if they wanna have some fun I’ll consider it. But considering most women are absolutely terrible on the average at initiating, asking guys out, letting their intentions be known before the man makes his move (at least in my experience, never SEEN a woman ask a guy out before), it’s gonna be up to me to make the move and thus the onus is all on me to be the good guy. It’s a lot of stress quite frankly.
How would I feel if I was barely found tolerable, depends. Casual sex I’d probably be ok with it, but if I felt something more and it looked like she wanted more I’d be hurt and confused.
Tolerable for dating I should say. By that I mean ones that are super clingy, having a major negative attribute and a major positive attribute which conflict bigtime. So they may be nice, sweet people but one experience was a girl who’d hold on to me and WOULDN’T let go after sex, saying I might leave her and drive away?!(was my house and I was going to get a drink). So after that experience I was conflicted, one part of me wanted to stay, the other part wanted to run for the hills. Barely tolerable. There might be a woman who is very beautiful but is a mean cow of a woman, I could have sex with her and enjoy the moment even though her personality might piss me off. Barely tolerable. It’s probably shallow and silly but if given the chance for a bit of fun that is mutual I’d take it, but I’d let them know they piss me off before hand I think, and at the very least say it’s casual only.
“Also? Women with children aren’t just baggage. They might be the most amazing thing ever and she, as a single mom, might really appreciate some no-strings sex/breaks from the mundanity of her life. Single mothers in general and mothers are nearly invisible these days. Think of it. you have sex, this amazing thing happens, and then your sexuality is null and void and you have “baggage.””
Maybe I wasn’t clear, I mean I’d prefer to date someone who is single, childless, but I’d still bang a mother if they want casual. I have this silly notion in my head that when I date I want to start my OWN family, but wayyy later down the track. I want us to be free from the burden of raising a child (they take time, effort, and money to raise), want to be able to take holidays at will without kids, at least with pets you can put them in the kennel for a few days or a friend can watch over them but with children? Not many seem willing to babysit that I see amongst my friends. I see no end of bitching about the lack of sleep, time, lack of sex/major impact on sex life, women without children generally have a hell of a lot more freedom and aren’t under that extreme financial, time n energy based pressure.
So no, I don’t want to date a single mother at this point in my life. I may change my mind later or fall madly in love with a single mother but I really would prefer childless, healthy, similar stage of life as me. I’m not saying others should follow my footsteps, this is just personal preference. Life is tough enough at the moment to raise myself, let alone a child especially one that isn’t mine and has the added potential negative of the annoying baby’s daddy. Lots of baggage I personally don’t want to deal with.
That was my reaction too. Ugh. I turned down casual sex a few tomes in my life because the guy seemed drunk or too desperate, and it made me feel wonder ” what will he think of this tomorrow?”
Those “barely tolerable” women, and the “unattractive” women who a guy screws because he’s desperate, well they have feelings just like the “better” or more attractive women, they are not less deserving of respect or love.
Everyone is reading wayyy to much into it. Never did I say they were undeserving of love, it’s just that I personally don’t fall for them but I can have a casual relationship with them IF THEY WANT TO. I still respect them, you don’t need to be best friends or even want to be around the people you want to sleep with much to respect them, hence the casual relationships that can be meet up for sex once a month and apart from that you don’t do anything else together. And by tolerate I mean in a dating sense more than anything else. Not everyone wants to fall in love before having sex you know, not everyone has this NEED for love before sex. The fact that they may be less tolerable for you personally to date, doesn’t mean they are ugly, or worse than the women you find more attractive, it just means you aren’t compatible with them on that level. Not everyone is a perfect match for everyone else, not everyone will be a good dating partner but they may be a good casual bit of fun. Just because one person isn’t into them doesn’t make them ugly though.
God, at times it looks like some women need super mega love before having sex, and anything less than that is considered wrong, disrespectful, harmful to her feelings…
Thank you for the clarification. I think though that I have a very different view of it. I don’t need to be in love to have sex. I’ve had friends with benefits relationships a couple times. However, I cared deeply about those guys as friends, even if we didn’t see each other that much. I can’t imagine wanting to have sex with a guy I didn’t like much, even if he looked like Brad Pitt and was as rich as Bill Gates. I had a discussion along this line with my boyfriend once and he said he’s never understand why women don’t have sex constantly, if we can get it so easily (compared to men), and I said it’s much harder finding guys I like enough to want to have sex with. He looked at me like I was speaking Martian! Keep in mind, I’m not talking about love or profound emotional intimacy, but I need to feel a lot of affection as well as attraction. Also, if I feel like a guy is just after me for sex, and doesn’t feel any real affection for me, view me as a good friend, etc., that just kills it for me.
I don’t know if the rape thing is in line with being a horndog. When I think of rapists, I think of power. When I think of horndogs, I might think of manipulation to get into the pants, but not rape. FYI.
I don’t know if the rape thing is in line with being a horndog. When I think of rapists, I think of power. When I think of horndogs, I might think of manipulation to get into the pants, but not rape. FYI.
Here is where that came from. You may not have heard this happen being a woman and all (or you might have?) but in some circles of guys when talking certains will be said that amount to being so horny and desiring the woman in question so badly they actually say, “She’d get raped for sure.”. As if having saying you would have sex with someone against their will is a testament to their attractiveness.
Its a matter of wanting to have sex with a woman so badly that even if she doesn’t want to, that sex act is going to happen anyway. And its not even so much that he wants power over her (or as I said in a past post here, “As a show of my power over you I am going to do personal and intimate things to you, and there is nothing you can do to stop me.”) as it is she is “so fucking hot” that he can’t help but want to have sex with her. This would be one of those times when its not about power, its about wanting to get some.
I think the numbers show that in most rape cases the victim and rapist know each other. It would make sense that power would be a part of those equations. In stranger rape it could still be a matter of power but I think also in some stranger rapes (I would still call a rapist attacking even a celebrity a stranger rape) it truly is a matter of wanting to get off sexually with someone. It may be someone specific (as in certain characteristics) or it may literally just be the first person they come across that matches their sexual orientation.
That’s what I was thinking on the horndogs and rape tangent.
I think the idea is perhaps that when you combine the aggressive aspect of sexuality with a self-deluded cloud of horn-doggedness then said horn-dog will go on to do something might not be able to acknowledge he is capable of doing. I think he is right that there is an illegitimate connection in the American mind with rape and being a horn dog. But even in France their is some reexamination of values after DSK past of “seductions” has come to light so it isn’t a perfectly black and white issue.
Quite a lot of rapists can easily get sex, so I don’t think of it as horndog. Horndog is more for those guys that have addiction to sex (Californicatttionnnnn anyone? He’s a massive horndog, the mere scent of a woman sends him into heat), guys that don’t get much play, guys with super high sex drives that wanna fuck 3-5 times a day.
Quite a lot of rapists can easily get sex, so I don’t think of it as horndog.
But that’s about as empty as saying that women can get plenty of sex. Sure they might be able to get plenty of sex but can they get plenty of sex that they want with who they want?
But even so:
Horndog is more for those guys that have addiction to sex (Californicatttionnnnn anyone? He’s a massive horndog, the mere scent of a woman sends him into heat), guys that don’t get much play, guys with super high sex drives that wanna fuck 3-5 times a day.
I’m sure we can agree that guys like this can be rapists right?
Anyone can be a rapist yes, but I feel it’s more about power than sex itself.
Yeah more often than not its power but I think in some cases its about convenient sex.
I think it’s important to note that the most strict standards placed on women are placed by the media and other women. Body shape may be the only factor in which men place a heavier standard than women. (“heavier”. no pun intended)
It’s also important to note that the problem of women getting eating disorders stems not so much from men judging them as sexual partners. Men’s standards for women haven’t changed all that much, as studies have been finding. They have actually been loosening up.
The problem with women’s appearance is the judgement weight placed on it. People like Rush Limbaugh will make fat jokes about Michelle Obama. People will make fun of Palin’s appearance, or Clinton’s appearance.
1)They are all perfectly fine weight-wise. “Fat” is not 10lb overweight.
2) For the life of me, how the heck does ANY of this affect their abilities as a politician? We let guys in who look far worse. You’re voting her into an important political office, not dating or sleeping with her! She isn’t gonna make you less likely to get a boyfriend.
That has been the real problem all along. Women are being personally judged by their appearance. But instead of focusing on THAT problem, we just tell men that having physical standards is shallow.
I have standards. Standards I myself meet. If you don’t meet those standards, the ONLY thing it affects is my willingness to date you. It doesn’t affect my friendship or faith in you, nor does it change how intelligent or honorable you are.
What we do, is we hypersexualize men, which pushes standards upon everyone else, then we get mad at them for the standards they have. It’s a madhouse!
It’s sexism on both sides and it’s designed by companies in order to sell us stuff. It’s an excuse used conveniently by men and women alike to excuse bad behavior on both parts and to make excuses ao that we don’t have to self reflect.
Assumption/excuse #1
Man wants model. Man is horny. Man “needs” release. Man settles for regular woman. Man is pissed that he can’t get model. Man demands woman become like model. Repeat until Man can find model. Man is left unhappy and unsatisfied. Man makes purchases.
Assumption/excuse #2
Woman wants man/love. Woman behaves in negative ways that discourage getting her wants/needs met. Woman needs to self reflect. Woman doesn’t want to self reflect. Woman blames man (all dogs and pigs). Woman doesn’t have to change for the better. Woman is left unhappy and unsatisfied. Woman makes purchases.
I say if you find someone attractive, who cares what other people think about it? If you’re following your intuition and living up to some idea or feeling that is within you, then do it! It takes courage and strength to follow your own truth instead of just doing what everyone else does. I say question your beliefs, in all respects. Happy living -Brandon
I agree with you, Danny, …I think some men are stuck in a double bind…my GF’s and I were discussing a memoir written by a classmate that we knew In JHS/HS (yes, some of us were mentioned in the book!)…
He wrote that even though he lusted after and fancied several of the girls (“slow motion movies of them were running through my head”), he tried to act nonchalant and sometimes rather insulting to our faces…it was a way of “keeping things under control”….I suppose that was to impress his guy friends….or maybe even his parents….his mom was anorexic and sexually repressed, so I think in front of her he tried to act disinterested, even though he definitely wasn’t…
Here’s my totally baseless hypothesis to reconcile your two signals under a consistently useful application.
Society has historically asked two things of its men: act and focus. We use a man’s libido to motivate him to act, take risks and sacrifice himself and his resources. Now, after having him up and bothered, we can’t have a bunch of recklessly horny men running aimlessly though society. Nope, we have to focus him on whatever activity selfishly benefits us with the promise of a “biscuit” if he behaves according to the rules. So, its important to us that men are both simultaneously rearing to f*ck anything, but only very specific things according to specific rules. Its also important, btw, that our women aren’t too eager to give away “biscuits” freely less we spoil our men from doing anything useful.
Basically we tell our men “Want sex!? Do ya, do ya, boy!? Well take this shovel and dig a trench and then take this gun and go shoot those people over there. Then who knows, we’ll see…but not before”.
Anyway, that’s my theory.
Ahh but this theory is built on the assumptions that 1) all men have a high sex drive and 2) all men get revved up with *this* kind of imagery and, most importantly, that 3) men are more fundamentally driven to follow their libido and do things for their libido than for any other reason. It’s still the “men as dogs” thing. That part I don’t buy at all.
I’m assuming you don’t mean to be insulting, I’d rather say this theory is more evidence of how ingrained our ideas about men and their sex really are.
No insult intended, just pure unadulterated cynicism.
To bring your rebuttal full circle though, it could very well be that men on avg are no more lascivious than women on avg and therefore, no more receptive to this type of motivation (although I think a real biological difference does exist). However, we simply select one gender for this treatment regardless because we have other considerations in mind. We may for example, decide that if we’re going to lose a few members of society to a good ‘ole ditch diggin’ or gun shootin’ we’d rather lose a few men than women. After all, we can lose a few men and keep the population expanding at pace. Or, alternatively we might already have a specific important job in mind for women for which sex is already an engaged motivator and would rather not create further obstacles. You can go ahead and pick your favorite victim, you’ll get the same resulting system.
The cause is up for debate, but I do think there is something self-evident about a social practice so well ingrained across cultures and through the ages. The culture must extract a tangible benefit or the practice would have disappeared long ago.
These are the kind of things we need to talk about more, and why we need the GMP and No Seriously. These are things most people don’t think about – yet they are ways in which our society is horribly sexist towards men. The narratives cut both ways.
Moreover – this narrative is strictly bounded by heteronormativity. It also assumes all men are straight and biologically male. And not just mostly straight – straight and narrow period.
Great post, Danny.
I’m a guy about 26 years old. I went to an Arby’s Restaurant in my local town, I love roast beef
hehe Anyway long story short, I was standing behind the counter waiting to order my food like normal when I had happened to glance behind the counter where they prep the food. These 2 young ladies I would guess around mid twenties (my age I would guess) one friend said to the other that I was obsessive for looking. The truth is I looked at them for not more then 3-4 seconds like a quick glance. They said what I was doing was sexual harassment?
The truth is I’m a straight virgin and it hurts people like us. When I saw her I legitimately saw the person but they thought I was being a pervy pervskin.
I do want sex someday lol, but until then. why would I go to a arbys to stalk someone if at all lol? Confused. Do all women expect a leering man to smile an act not threatening? When I’m at store and a woman walks by should I just look at the floor? Should I treat you like your not there? how many licks to the center of the tootsie pop ^_^
3-4 seconds is not sexual harassment, I don’t care what anyone says, don’t let them say you sexually harassed them when clearly you didn’t. Leering at them for longer might be uncomfortable for them but I doubt it’s even classed as sexual harassment? Looking at people isn’t sexual harassment in my book, if you stare and keep doing it then it’s just plain old harassment especially if they ask you to look away or whatever. If you purposely look like you’re staring at their breasts, then it could be considered to be sexual harassment as it’s seen as sexual in nature. But the term is probably quite subjective, they felt uncomfy and felt it was sexual so they felt sexually harassed when it’s possible you weren’t sexually harassing them. Some people see attention from men as far worse than it really is, doesn’t mean you did wrong, they misread your intention and if they are use to men sexually harassing them and you look at them they may think “oh no here we go again” and assume you to be the same as the others.
Throwing the terms sexual harassment around at people who aren’t sexually harassing is actually a form of bullying and harassment in itself, and is part of creep shaming. Chances are she was in the wrong for openly saying that to you based off a small glance. If you had been staring at her breasts for quite some time then she’d be fine in saying that to you but based off a 3-4 second look, I think it’s completely wrong she even mentioned it that way. She could have said something about it making her/them uncomfortable in a respectful manner but clearly she didn’t, so I wouldn’t be surprised if she was intending to make you feel bad in some way from it.
Women (and men), be damn sure about someones behaviour when you throw highly charged terms at them, it’s a term that can harm a man’s reputation and cause quite a few problems.