In yesterday’s horrific train accident in Midland, Texas, Army Sergeant Joshua Michael and Sergeant Major Lawrence Boivin faced a choice. Instead of escaping, as they could have, they pushed their wives to safety… and perished.
Michael, a Purple Heart recipient, “pushed his wife off the float—my daughter,” Mary Hefley tells the Amarillo Globe-News. “He was that kind of guy. He always had a smile on his face. He would do for others before he would do for himself.”
Witness Jaime Garza said he got to the scene just after impact, and Boivin died in his arms. “He actually pushed (his wife) off the float, and then he got hit.”
It is very easy to criticize traditional masculinity, and I have criticized it a lot; many elements of traditional masculinity are indeed toxic. But there are parts of it that are good, and valuable– not just for men, but for people. Dying in order to save those you love is one of them. Courage, strength, protecting those weaker than you… those are good things, things that matter. Their sacrifice is noble and honorable and I salute them.
Photo– AP photo/James Durbin. Parade participants look on as a trailer carrying wounded veterans was struck by a train.
After an event like this I think it’s hard for some people to see how harmful it is to have self-sacrifice linked directly to being masculine. In this case I think it’s hard to see because those men did exactly what was expected of them by society. They gave their lives saving someone else. They are good men. However, you can be sure that had any of those men jumped and saved himself, he would’ve been labelled a coward or not a “real man”. That is one reason why gendering self-sacrifice is so toxic. I wish I could say I’m… Read more »
1. There’s an expectation for men to sacrifice themselves for woman, but no expectation for woman to sacrifice themselves for men.
2. Sacrificing yourself is linked to being a man.
William you make two valid points – but they are subject to the NIMBY effect – Not In My Back Yard. You are talking about a social phenomenon and so many can just dismiss it and attempt to deny it with the age of cry “Well – Not me!”. It’s the classic response you get from the people who are not able to grasp the subtlety of the information – or those who simply don’t care due to prejudice. You see it all the time from people claiming to be about gender equality – but who have biased views about… Read more »
@Erin and Sarah,
I think stories like this are inspiring and celebrate something good in people. However, can you really argue that men aren’t relatively disposable, and that if men are disposable then stories like this occur in that context? That expectation that you are entitled to a seat on the lifeboat is what takes away from my ability to freely offer it.
I don ‘t know, I don’t think that these stories imply that men are “disposable.” I think people see it as a terrible tragedy and stories of heroism make people feel better because it is the only positive to hold on to. I realize many of the commenters here are bothered by these stories of heroism so I will try to see it from your point of view, but I guess only my point is that in such a situation, ultimately you have to live with whatever decision you make and only you can know what you can live with.… Read more »
” I don’t think that these stories imply that men are “disposable.”” Then why the link to masculinity, why the expectation that this is what a man should do? Rather than acknowledging it as a heroic act, regardless of the sex of those doing it? “I realize many of the commenters here are bothered by these stories of heroism” How many times do you need to be told, it isn’t the heroism, it is the connection to masculinity, the expectation that it is men, and only men, that “need” to do this in order to maintain their manhood. Why do… Read more »
Sarah:
“I realize many of the commenters here are bothered by these stories of heroism”
Mark Neil:
“How many times do you need to be told, it isn’t the heroism,…”
Frankly, for me the self sacrifice is bothering, though obviously the gender expectations is main theme of the comments. From my position of safety Ihave to say that I dislike the idea that anybody might sacrifice their life to save mine. For two reasons.
1.I am not worth it.
2.Iwouldn’t expect myself to do likewise for them.
as I said, I think it would be rare for someone to consciously believing they arr sacrificing themselves. They take a risk to help someone, believing they will both get through it. I suspect that is usually what happens.
I’ve been a couple of situations where I expected the price for being involved would cost me my life … both involved protecting women….I went willingly … yet I understand now I was a fool to do so. You have not a clue as to how deeply society programs men for self sacifice…….
The men who used their bodies as shields knew that they would be giving up their own lives for their girlfriends/friends if the batman shooter fired their direction.
“Why do you intentionally choose to misconstrue this argument? Repeatedly!”
This x 1000. Moderators, can you step in and stop the sheer level of strawmanning going on? It’s annoying.
“I realize many of the commenters here are bothered by these stories of heroism”
Good god, HOW MANY TIMES. The thing that bothered us was that it was portrayed as masculine, not that it was told. This thread is really annoying and I am quite seriously thinking the women posting here are trolling us guys hard, no one can be serious n misunderstand these comments that much.
IDK, Archy, from the tone of the comments it does seem like some of the commenters ARE angry – very very angry – that a man would ever be praised for risking his life to save someone, particularly, to save a woman. Like he’s stupid or a chump. I think in some of your comments you said a man should get equal praise for saving himself and NOT pushing his wife to safety. You’ve said men should let their wives fend for themselves in a dangerous situation, which, okay, I understand that is a legitimate point of view. I don’t… Read more »
I think people should be praised on saving themselves, I can understand the self-sacrifice getting more praise though but I think we need to remember that saving yourself is saving a life and worthy of our praise. “You’ve said men should let their wives fend for themselves in a dangerous situation, which, okay, I understand that is a legitimate point of view.” I said I think people should both fight side by side where possible, but what I disagree with is the expectation of the woman does nothing n the man does the work n puts his life on the… Read more »
“from the tone of the comments it does seem like some of the commenters ARE angry – very very angry – that a man would ever be praised for risking his life to save someone, particularly, to save a woman” 1: Can you provide a quoted example. I suspect the anger isn’t with praising someone for risking their life, I suspect the anger comes from attributing the risk to masculinity and being a man. Seriously, I’m amazed you women aren’t taking offense to the idea that self sacrifice is a masculine trait, as if women aren’t inclined to do it.… Read more »
I kind of doubt that people are thinking about gender expectIonz when they have a split second to make a life or death decision. I think most people probably just react instictively to perceiving a threat to themselves or their loved ones. I’ve read that under extreme stress, neural signals actually skip the frontal lobes. You just react. Personally I agree with you that articles about heroism shouldn’t be gendered. It bugs me when I see people attributing heroic deeds to some kind of masculine superiority. I think there are probably far more examples of women risking their lives to… Read more »
It bugs me when I see people attributing heroic deeds to some kind of masculine superiority.” Then please, reread this article and tell me where you’re getting the idea that he is praising those husbands as hero’s, and NOT attributing it to masculinity? Because I just don’t see it. “We’d probably both end up dead and my heroic act would be unreported.” I actually suspect it would be reported as a failure on your husbands part to protect you, but that’s JMHO. “I also don’t think we should stop praising self sacrifice.” I agree. I’ve said as much. So has… Read more »
“I disagree with Archy that saving oneself is the same as saving another person. I think it is fundamentally different.” I dunno if I made it very clear. I don’t think they’re the same, I think the OUTCOME is the same, 1 life is saved, 1 is lost. If someone saves themself, a life is saved, if someone doesn’t act n another dies, a lift is lost, and the one that didn’t save isn’t put in harms way so their life is saved. If 1 self-sacrifices for another, it’s a very honorable thing to do and extraordinary but 1 life… Read more »
“That expectation that you are entitled to a seat on the lifeboat is what takes away from my ability to freely offer it.” It’s starting to really sound like female entitlement especially when you see women using kids as a metaphorical shield to try get under to gain protection status like a post above trying to shame a man over theoretically not protecting women AND children. You see it all the time it anti-domestic violence campaigns, “and children” is a way to tug the heartstrings n gain the empathy involved to increase protective instinct. Quite frankly it treats women like… Read more »
““and children” is a way to tug the heartstrings n gain the empathy involved to increase protective instinct.”
It’s also a way to pad the numbers, as when you add children as victims, you include the children that are victims to women’s abuse. “look at all the abuse done to women and children” with the clear implication that those who aren’t women and children, IE men, are the ones doing the abuse.
It’s sickeningly dishonest, which is why it’s important to really study statistics. Another way to inflate the protective instinct is to only really report on female vulnerability n barely ever mention male vulnerability, this PLAGUES the domestic violence industry to the point it makes quite a lot statistics used there in a dishonest fashion trying to portray women as victims n men as the perpetrators. All that does is make women feel more afraid and also feel weaker whilst men fail to be educated about their own risks, giving them a false sense of security.
So traditional masculinity is toxic unless it involves men dying for women.
Wait, what?
I think when men or women give their lives for another person, it’s an amazing thing to do beyond what normal words can conceptualize. When people risk their lives to save another human beings, it is amazingly special. What these men did for their wives shouldn’t be sullied by gender politics. They made the choice to save their wives. No one forced them to do it. In a split second of thinking, you don’t start calculating and itemizing things in your head. You just react on pure base instinct. Anyone that’s been in a life or death situation knows that.… Read more »
Sure it’s special, but so is jumping to save your own life. Looking after your own life is incredibly important and you are often the best suited to doing so. There is a deeper culture problem with expecting men to sacrifice themselves for women, how many stories have you heard of of women covering their husbands like the men covering their partners at the batman shooting? I don’t think I’ve ever seen the average woman step in to protect men, nor can I recall hearing about it. I’ve seen n heard the average man protecting a woman though, but only… Read more »
Have you ever seen the documentary “Grizzly Man”? The grizzly researcher and his girlfriend were attacked by a bear. There is apparently an audio recording of the attack because they had a camera on (though there is no video). Instead of running away while the bear was mauling her boyfriend, the girlfriend apparently tried to attack the bear with a weapon of some kind (a pan, I think) and the bear killed her too. I also think in situations like this, maybe women are more likely to talk about male heroism than visa versa. Would a man want to tell… Read more »
There was also a widely reported incident in the city of Alameda, CA, a few years ago where a guy swam out in the Bay to commit suicide. Firefighters were called, but would not attempt to save him because (they later said) they had not been trained to do water rescues (Alameda is an island, by the way). A female bystander swam out and pulled him ashore while the firefighters stood around. Unfortunately it was too late and he died of hypothermia.
Thank-you! I’m glad to hear stories like that exist to challenge the experiences I’ve seen. It’s nice to know that humans have your back, male or female after a life filled with the very gendered version of heroism. The only defender role I’ve seen largely with women is the mumma bear role, where you don’t fuck with mumma’s kids or she’ll tear you a new one.
I think there are plentyof stories of female heroism around if you look for them. I acknowledged in other comments that I think the media coverage of these incidents is biased, as well as people’s memories. People jump to the conclusion that “he took a bullet, he’s a hero”, while a woman who was shot, just got shot. Years ago I remember there was a female teacher who thwarted a school shooting by knocking the gun out of the hand of the assailant (another woman). I remember reading about a woman who drowned in San Francisco Bay while trying to… Read more »
The ones that need to be shown more especially are women saving men, not just children but adult males and if we tell men to save women then we should be telling women to save men.
Here are 3 examples I found in a couple minutes of searching
Seville woman honored for rescuing man from burning car
http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/oh_medina/seville-woman-honored-for-rescuing-man-from-burning-car
Woman pulls man from burning truck
http://www.gaffneyledger.com/news/2012-07-20/Local_News/Woman_pulls_man_from_burning_truck.html
California Woman, Saves Driver From Burning Truck
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/25/keenan-williams-californi_n_1026832.html
Any of women saving their boyfriends/husbands?
Here’s one where an 85 year old woman saved her husband from a moose
http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/01/25/85-year-old-woman-takes-on-moose-saves-husband/
There are SO MANY stories it’s crazy. I watched actual footage of a woman and a man both approaching an accident (separately) and jumping out to save a couple before the car set on fire.
I’ve jumped out of my car to help in accidents, and have been on the scene at several eldercare homes where I’ve had to act. Lots and lots of average people do good things. The most splashy wind up on News at 5 pm. Like if a person of any gender saves a child in an extreme circumstance, it gets reported, but if a person just helps with smaller event..nada.
And in the case of the bigger events, the byline will be designed for maximum view (and in ways that subtly reinforce gender dynamics).
That’s pretty awesome! Thanks for showing me. I am glad it happens, although I do think it’s not an expectation still which is the original problem but it’s nice to know that human instinct will often bring out protective actions.
I think Archy’s gotten distracted from the original point. There is no denial that women do heroic, self sacrificing things (though I note all the women reported survived), but women aren’t expected to do them. When they do, they are celebrated as going above and beyond, where men are doing their duty. For example, in the first story, they gave Stitt a hero’s honor. Four men died in the batman shooting, only three really got reported on. The forth, a serviceman, put himself in the line of fire to protect a fellow female serviceman. The three that did get reported… Read more »
I need to make a correction, four men died as a result of protecting others (more than that died, of both sex’s. I don’t want to diminish that)
I am really surprised that you think that men who die saving someone’s life aren’t honored as heroes. I honestly don’t know how you can believe that. The news stories always heap praise on the such individuals and their heroism is honored with posthumous medals, memorial services, even movies about their lives. Or even operas. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/art/blog/2011/09/san-francisco-opera-sets-911-to-music.html Honestly, I don’t know anyone who just shrugs and goes, “yeah that’s what a guy is expected to do, who cares?” I mean, I have just NEVER encountered that kind of attitude. If you have encountered that kind of attitude, that is terrible and… Read more »
“I am really surprised that you think that men who die saving someone’s life aren’t honored as heroes.” I don’t think they are honored as “heroes”, I think they are honored as “real men”. “Honestly, I don’t know anyone who just shrugs and goes, “yeah that’s what a guy is expected to do, who cares?” I mean, I have just NEVER encountered that kind of attitude. ” The “who cares” bit I don’t agree with, but I think the rest is demonstrated in this very article. I’ve asked you a few times now to quote where in this very article… Read more »
“their sacrifice is noble and honorable”? Should Ozy have also said “heroic”? I don’t know. I think the comments have gone way past the words used in the article but if you are only quibbling now about Ozy ‘s choice of words then I guess we have come full circle. I think it is possible to honor men , or women, who act in the most selfless way possible without turning it into a gender war. I am sorry that you see the praise for such sacrifice as such a negative. I will repeat my earlier comments that you are… Read more »
” I am sorry that you see the praise for such sacrifice as such a negative” You have misrepresented me yet again. I take this as a clear intention you do not wish to have a reasonable discussion on the topic and I will remove myself. It is sad that some people are so unwilling to even acknowledge others points, instead attempting to shame them by accusing them of attitudes they have openly stated otherwise. I will leave you with this. If you think the selfless act shouldn’t be turned into a gender war, why is it you don’t have… Read more »
Why are the sacrifices women make to save children less important then a sacrifice a woman makes to save a man??? Isn’t a human life a human life?
Did I say it was less important? Congrats on yet another strawman. The reason I wanted to know of men being saved by women because it’s an expectation that mothers die defending their kids, the mumma-bear, but rarely if ever is it expected that a woman will defend n risk their lives for adult males and quite rare for women to risk their lives to save men unless in the military, police, jobs that require such sacrifice. Both genders protect kids, but only one gender is expected to protect both genders, men are expected to protect women whilst women do… Read more »
“People jump to the conclusion that “he took a bullet, he’s a hero”, while a woman who was shot, just got shot.”
But our point is, that isn’t what’s happening. Please, quote for me from Oz’s article where these men are actually defined as hero’s? Because what I see is an assertion that these guys were exhibiting the masculine trait of self sacrifice, and that’s a good and “Valuable” trait for others.
Erin,
these two man did somrthing heroic and they should be honoured, I definitely agree. But the problem is that by honouring deeds like that, we encourage people to risk their lives for others. Now in our Western societies men are significantly more encouraged (or even expected) to risk their lives for others then women are, this doen’t align well with gender equality.
Further, would you want your son to be a hero?
First, I don’t agree that by honouring deeds like this, we encourage people to risk their lives for others. On one hand, you say what they did should be honoroed and then on the other, you think the honoring encourages people to risk their lives. So what is the balance key to you? I think by turning this into a gender war, we are disrespecting the choice these men made for their wives. We are blaming the wives or society and we are telling ourselves that these men only did so because of social conditioning? That disrespectful of them to… Read more »
Erin, with all due respect, I suggest you read the artical as it seems clear you haven’t. The anger is against the author not the act… The author is the one making it about “Brave man saves weak wife” and “traditional masculinity”.
John Smith, I did read the article. I am sorry you don’t believe I’ve understood it. I can assure you I have. I don’t see anger at the author. I see a lot of male anger toward the idea of men saving women and giving their lives to the women they love. But you know what’s funny? I haven’t heard one man here complain about one man giving his life for another man. Whenever this discussion comes up it’s ALWAYS a debate about men giving their lives up for women and the anger men feel when other men make the… Read more »
Did you read the part about how masculinity is toxic except when it is sacrificing itself for women? That first insults traditional masculinity. But worst, it then says the quality of masculinity (thus, removing the expectation from women) that is still desirable is self sacrifice. Do you believe self sacrifice is a male only attribute? An aspect of masculinity? Do you appreciate having gender roles inforced onto you through attacks on your femininity? Do you appreciate being told your not a real woman if you don’t stay home and raise a brood of children?
Mark, OzFrantz didn’t say, “masculinity is toxic except when it is sacrificing itself for women”…what the author said was that there were aspects …”aspects” of traditional masculinity that are toxic and aspects of it that aren’t to “people” in general. He used the world “people” even, “people” isn’t specific to women! He also said that just because certain concepts of traditional masculinity can be toxic (And guess what? They can be. You don’t agree?) That we shouldn’t obliterate everything. Those aspects can sometimes be most toxic to men themselves and not even involve women! We are just as much talking… Read more »
Wow. I must admit I am truely astonished at how much someone can misunderstand others replies so badly. When you have multiple people telling you that you’re wrong about your interpretration of their words, maybe you should…I dunno, LISTEN TO THEM? You’re debating something WE’RE NOT SAYING. Ozyfrantz is also a female who identifies as neither gender as far as I know who is celebrating self-sacrifice as a masculine trait, which is even more degrading to men than if a man does it due to the fact women are not expected to do the same and it implies a man’s… Read more »
“”aspects” of traditional masculinity that are toxic and aspects of it that aren’t to “people” in general. He used the world “people” even, “people” isn’t specific to women!” Actually, he didn’t say “to” people, he said “for” people. Their are aspects that are valuable “for” people. There is a difference. He further goes on to say “Dying in order to save those you love is one of them.”. In a general sense (yes, I know I’m being heteronormative here, but I’m generalizing) that is a woman and children. It is the “those you love” part that implies woman. “He also… Read more »
You know what Mark? You got to do what you got to do. So if you need to report me to moderators, you go ahead and do that. But above you made an interesting comment to Sarah about what you thought was her intention to not want to have a reasonable discussion. It was interesting to me because that is exactly how saw the conversation with you, especially after you tied up your response to me by threatening to report me. The moderorators are certainly here to handle those things but we are two adults. I am not a 5… Read more »
I’ve sat back and watched this thread unfold – Oh Boy It’s been so fascinating. I do love watching the behaviours round here – so many are so text book and so few readers actually recognise them when done in plain view. I know that Thanks Giving is a time for Turkey – but for some It’s Christmas cos a Goose has been Cooked, and it’s so often like watching rerun cartoons and cartoon characters beloved by Baby Boomers and their babies and repeated to generations ever since. ROFPML. @ Erin – you really should be made the poster child… Read more »
Amen. Attack the person’s real position, not a made-up one!
@ Mark Neil – as I’ve said concerning others cartoon ways, I have sat back and been watching! It has been most interesting to see the dogged attempts by you and others such as Archey to get others to address the issues and points made. It has been unsurprising, though unwittingly comical and informative, to see how some have done everything possible to get away, around and ultimately to disparage the issues and points. Some of the conduct is so “Mechanical” as to be mass produced. It is a pity though that design obsolescence does not feature highly or come… Read more »
Erin
Men sacrfice their lives to protect women and other men as well.
We are only saying that women would never sacrifice their life to protect her man. Maybe her children but not her man. Women dont have that instinct towards men.
Its just a difference that we are pointing without assessing whether its right or wrong. Why are you so reluctant to acknowledge it?
I disagree on so many levels here. We’ve (myself, Archy, etc) argued nothing about what women would or wouldn’t do, nor do we argue about natural instinct or whatnot. Your argument is far closer to that of the original poster, except, contrary to your claim: “without assessing whether its right or wrong. ” The original author very much defined it as “good and valuable”. And it is that assertion that this is gendered (an part of masculinity), and seen as an expected gendered trait (as opposed to a positive human trait) that is wrong. People should be respected for their… Read more »
Exactly. I dunno why this is so hard to understand?
I don’t care about people celebrating someone saving another life, I care about portraying it as a gendered trait. Would women like it if I started spouting on about being a full time carer as a feminine trait? Though even then it doesn’t compare to the severe risk to your life in situations like the OP.
It isn’t hard to understand, it’s just hard to continue enforcing once exposed without being extremely hypocritical to the feminist claim of breaking down gender roles.
LOL. Because the men in Saving Private Ryan are likely to SAVE EACH OTHER and not a 1 way expectation of men saving women without women saving men. Really Erin, pay more attention to what we’re all saying. It’s clear you haven’t understood much of what we’re actually saying when you think it’s merely bitterness at saving women. It has nothing to do with them being female or male but everything to do with the expectation for one gender to save the other whilst the other isn’t put to the same standard. Men in war are expected to save each… Read more »
Erin, “First, I don’t agree that by honouring deeds like this, we encourage people to risk their lives for others.” This is the crucial point. If you are right, then there is no problem with honouring such sacrifices. But if you are wrong, then we should talk about the effects. “We are blaming the wives or society and we are telling ourselves that these men only did so because of social conditioning?” Who is blaming the wives? Of course the men didn’t act only out of social conditioning, but this does not mean that social conditioning didn’t play a role.… Read more »
Alberich – I don’t really understand a good chunk of your response. Especially your very first comment. I will say for those that strictly care about their own personal self-fulfillment and happiness, I doubt those types would even consider sacrificing their lives for someone else to begin with. Man or woman. Usually people that are primarily concerned with themselves first (I am not making a statement either way if that’s right or wrong), aren’t going to think about other people all the sudden when it comes to life and death. It sounds like to me that men are very bitter… Read more »
I agree that these men shouldn’t be shamed for their sacrifice. However, we live in a culture which encourages men to sacrifice themselves for others if faced with such an extreme situation and shames them if they value their own lives more. Remember the guy who ran from the theater in Aurora during the shooting? The same is not asked of or expected of women. I doubt you will find anyone shaming these two women for not pushing their husbands out of the way. Exemplifying this as something a “good man” does (and by extension implying that a man who… Read more »
While it makes me sad that a lot of guys here are bitter about the choices other men made to save their partners, the man you are talking about didn’t just run out on his partner, he ran out on his own kids as well. No one saying he is a “bad” man all around. But he didn’t even stick around to help with his own kids. His partner did. She didn’t run out leaving her children behind. She was trying to manage to protect her two kids all on her own. And he just left all of them. If… Read more »
What do you think would have happened had that woman, with the kids, also ran out and left her own kids behind? Do you think people would have been fine with that? No. She would have been on the chopping block, and rightly so for leaving her own kids behidn to save herself!
Erin, what do you think would have happened if the reverse were true – the woman escaped and her partner stayed behind with the kid? Would people be praising the man for risking his life to protect others or shaming the woman for being a coward, like they did for the man in real life? Please try to understand that no one here is trying to shame these men for their sacrifice or say that self sacrifice is a bad thing. People are just pointing out the unfairness of an expectation being placed only on men that in a dire… Read more »
Thank you. It’s good to know someone understands our argument.
I will sincerely answer your question once you answer mine first Melenas. I don’t feel it’s very respectful to ignore my question in favor of asking your own. I am more then happy to answer the question you asked! I just want you to give my question the same respect. I understand that a lot of men posting here are feeling marginilized when stories come up regarding how men risked their lives to save women. But it hasn’t gone unnoticed by me how this conversation never comes up when it’s about men risking their lives for other men. I guess… Read more »
“But it hasn’t gone unnoticed by me how this conversation never comes up when it’s about men risking their lives for other men. I guess men risking their lives for other men is okay but when it’s a man that risks his life for a woman he only did it because society told him to.” This has been addressed more than once in this comment thread, did you actually READ the comments? It doesn’t come up when risking their lives for other men because other men have the same expectation to risk their life! Women do not have that same… Read more »
“While it makes me sad that a lot of guys here are bitter about the choices other men made to save their partners,” Wow, seriously, how do you misread these comments like that? No one here is bitter at the men for saving the women and to say that is VERY INSULTING. We’re bitter at it being told as a good MASCULINE TRAIT to sacrifice your life for another (especially a woman who isn’t given the same expectation of sacrifice). It’s a very simple concept to understand, the degradation is the continuance of portraying heroism n self sacrifice as manly… Read more »
“He didn’t simply make that choice because society forced him to.” Funny, you’re so willing to say society pressures women into acting a certain way in regards to their sexuality yet fail to acknowledge society pressuring men to throw their life away to save a woman and kids. Did you see the broohah over the men who were saving themselves instead of letting women get off first on the cruise-liner sinking? I sure did and there was a metric fucktonne of shame directed to men for it. Imagine a couple walking the street, someone tries hurt them but the guy… Read more »
“While it makes me sad that a lot of guys here are bitter about the choices other men made to save their partners,” This is called a strawman. Nobody is bitter at the choices of the men, they are concerned about the way that sacrifice is being portrayed as an expectation on what a “good man” is. There is a distinct difference. “She didn’t run out leaving her children behind. She was trying to manage to protect her two kids all on her own.” And yet, she isn’t being held up as these two men were. No, instead, the guys… Read more »
It’s not strawman Mark because that’s what I really see is happening. Could you see how it’s possible for me to have thoughts and opinions that aren’t just there to be “strawman”? Everything I’ve said is pretty sincere! Please see that. I see a lot of anger and bitterness for situations where men save women. I don’t see that same level of anger, bitterness and discussion for when men save other men. This discussion doesn’t come up when it’s about men saving other men. It only comes up when stories of men saving women arrise. Further, there are some extraordinary… Read more »
It is a strawman because what you are arguing against, with me specifically, is not something I have ever argued, yet you refuse to acknowledge the actual argument I am making. You have demonstrated, with your interactions with me specifically, that you are unwilling to recognize the arguments made. A strawman is when you recreate the argument and then fight against that new creation. Nobody is arguing that “people” sacrificing themselves is a bad thing. This is what you keep pretending people are arguing. What is ACTUALLY being argued is that an EXPECTATION that MEN specifically MUST sacrifice themselves, as… Read more »
“It is a strawman because what you are arguing against, with me specifically, is not something I have ever argued, yet you refuse to acknowledge the actual argument I am making.” It is something you argued. Above you said: “Did you read the part about how masculinity is toxic except when it is sacrificing itself for women?” You seemed especially concerned with the sacrifice men make for other women. Not sacrifices men may make for other men, women and children alike. You also ignored the part where the author said “people” to make his point, not “women”. You seemed to… Read more »
“Many women died in labor. There was a very high mortality rate. But maybe those lives don’t matter to you. I don’t really know. They made a big sacrifice and risk for their children. For the children of their husbands. I think that’s heroism if you ask me. But it seems like you are discounting all the women that died in the process. That gave themselves for the future of their children and the children of their husbands that would carry their husband’s names, not her name.” That’s something men cannot do. It’s a completely different issue! Women are not… Read more »
“For the most part, I have found that people over-use the “strawman” argument specifically on the internet when they simply don’t like the discussion and don’t have anything else to really add to it. So they throw out some arbitrary accusation instead of actually discussing the issue respectfully whether they disagree or not. I get not agreeing with me. Please do so respectfully without making arbitrary accusations that have nothing to do with the discussion.” Oh this is rich. He made a statement saying x. You argued against it saying Y. He says you’re strawmanning, which YOU DID, and then… Read more »
That guy literally dropped his baby on the floor and ran. Dropped his baby in the floor. If a woman had done that, I think people would have been equally, if not more disgusted. That said, I actually felt sorry for the guy, I don’t think anyone knows what they will do in that kind of situation. I also don’t think we want to live in a society where we encourage people to push others out of life boats and that sort of thing, where it is all a life-and-death Darwinian struggle to survive and the strong trample the weaker,… Read more »
“where we encourage people to push others out of life boats and that sort of thing, ” Regarding the Costa Concordia (sp?) sinking, I think it is important to note what exactly was meant by “pushing others out of the way”. When someone feels entitled to a seat, and someone else gets it first and refuses to give it up, that person can be identified, by the one denied the seat they felt entitled to, as “pushed out of the way”. I’ve seen this phenomenon happen. I believe one of the interviews actually described this happening “men were refusing to… Read more »
Sarah
Women would die for their children, but they would never die for their husband.
Many men WILL die for their women.
They are absolutely not morally obliged to and their disposition can even be questioned, But it is a gender difference that you should acknowledge.
please see my example from Grizzly Man, above. The girlfriend could have run but she tried to get the bear off her boyfriend instead. I posted another example of a woman risking her life to save a man (a stranger) that is caught in moderation for some reason. Hopefully it will show up soon.
AFAIK he was on the second floor, hid the baby behind something n climbed down to go get help. In his mind it may have been the most logical thing to do, get the cops there as fast as possible and trying to climb down the balcony with a baby could have put the child in more danger. If you could find a very secluded spot it may have been the best thing to do? Some people hide their kids in closets when their is danger around, I sure as hell would hide my child if there was a gunman… Read more »
I have nothing but respect for the persons who committed these acts.
However, I despise the society for putting the pressure of not expecting anything less of them, just because the way they were born.
And I think you contradict yourself a bit, there’s no thought process or choice makings in pure instinct reactions.
Can you please clarify, are you then supporting the author, or those condemning the author for gendering it? I can actually see both arguments made in your post, depending on the perspective you begin with.
What better way for a man to prove his usefulness than by accepting his own disposability and dying for a woman?
Please for the love of God don’t gender this. You can say that self sacrifice is a noble thing, but holding it up as a uniquely masculine “virtue” is absolutely vile. Just another way of perpetuating the sexist idea that a man’s worth is primarily based on his utility to others.
“just another way of perpetuating the sexist idea that a man’s worth is primarily based on his utility to others.”
This sexist idea is pumped into the heads of men and woman from the time they’re born.
So men are toxic in general? They only get out from under the Toxic Dump when they die the right way saving women? Odd how some writers just can’t leave their Dogma Bone alone as they gnaw away at the keyboard. What if they had been a Gay Couple – Lesbian Saves Wife – would it get the same headlines? NO! Queer Man saves Husband In Idaho Train Wreck – but for local reasons and media policy we have to report it as Sodomite gets just desserts and delays delivery of goods by train! Why is the media massacre being… Read more »
I’m trying to imagine the constant feelings of guilt and shame I would constantly live under, probably for the rest of my life, if I knew that I was only alive because someone else literally gave their own life for it. Then again, I would probably feel the same if I was alive because I had failed to save someone else in a situation similar to this. Is this a man vs. woman thing? Because we as men are brought up to see women as inherently more valuable than us, and nothing less are expected by us? If so, how… Read more »
I can’t believe people still think both genders can have flexible gender roles.
Woman can be as flexible as they want but men can only be flexible when it works for woman.
Why should it be good to sacrifice your life for somebody else? (honest question, I would love to see a discussion about this.)
Let us assume I knew and liked those men and didn’t or didn’t care for their wives. Wouldn’t I rather want that the men would have survived and the wives had died? Wouldn’t I prefer living cowrds to ded heros?
Correction:
didn’t know or didn’t care for their wives
I think in this situation both outcomes are acceptable, if they pushed their wives away then good on em, if they said fuckit n jumped then good on em. Their wives had a responsibility to ensure their OWN safety, just as those guys had as well, self-preservation is the most selfish but NECESSARY systems we have. Sure it’s great to have people risk their lives to save others through heroic actions such as fireman, but it’s also great that people save themselves where possible and that should be celebrated. You jumped from the float to save yourself? Hi 5 for… Read more »
Maybe the men were not in a position on the float where they could easily jump off. Maybe their wives were in the way and they were pushing them off then intended to jump themselves but there was no time. It is impossible to know what went through their minds at that moment,
I think respecting the selflessness of the act is a good thing, but as Archy aludes to, the problem is when that selflessness becomes a gendered expectation.
Mark Neil: “I think respecting the selflessness of the act is a good thing,… Yes, but in our progressive society we don’t always respect selflessness, for example a woman who lives for her family and community, is often looked down on by progressives, who emphasise happiness and self-fulfillment as the obvious life goals. “… but as Archy aludes to, the problem is when that selflessness becomes a gendered expectation.” The problem is even if the author of a post like this, doesn’t mean it to be a gendered expectation, we still live in a society in which such expectations are… Read more »
“Yes, but in our progressive society we don’t always respect selflessness, for example a woman who lives for her family and …” Exactly. The expectation of selflessness is gendered. When a woman acts selflessly, she is doing something she isn’t expected to do. This often receives ether scorn or or unnatural praise (how many woman have been praised as hero’s for doing little more than shooting their mouth off to someone who could have hurt them). “The problem is even if the author of a post like this, doesn’t mean it to be a gendered expectation, we still live in… Read more »
Did the wives try push the husbands off?
I admire the courage n heroism but dying for a woman should NEVER be celebrated as manly. People who save themselves still are respectable, they saved one life so the outcome is similar, 1 lives, 1 dies. I’d probably try the same thing but if I didn’t, would people think me less of a man??
Of course they would think less of you. Stuck in the backwoods of canada I the one with the extreme cardiac condition hiked out to the highway after early GPS failure…road had changed 30 years earlier and was now a off-road trail best…..thanks garmin. while Wife and kid stayed snug in stuck, but safe car. If she’d have hiked out it would probably have set off events that would have ended marriage…… Male Role enforcement goes all the way to death….and you had better “die well”. Fantastic male privilege, right?
Yeah it’s pretty terrible.
How would you have felt if your wife got lost in the woods and died while you were sitting snug in the car? How would you feel about yourself if you jumped off the float to save yourself and left your wife there to be killed? I mean, I’m not saying it is right or wrong but I think a lot of men would not be able to live with themselves if they acted that way. Soldiers sacrifice themselves to save their buddies all the time. Is it different if a man sacrifiepces himself to save another man? What about… Read more »
I’m curious, are you suggesting a woman isn’t burdened by that same survivors guilt? Or that men are more susceptible to it? “What if a woman gives her life to save her children?” Why specify to save children? Are you suggesting that women are to men as children are to women? Are women not their own person, adult, capable of being responsible for their own safety? What if a woman died saving a man? Would that man not be shamed by the community? Would the woman be described as a “Real woman”? Or as something above and beyond, something special?… Read more »
I’m just asking how you would feel about yourself later. I know if I left a loved one behind while I saved myself, I’d feel terrible for the rest of my life. I’m also asking if you are offended by a parent (of either gender) sacrificing themselves for children, or a woman sacrificing herself for a man for that matter. or is it just the idea that men should not sacrifice themselves for women that you have a problem with. I just find your attitude very cold, I guess. But of course no me can force you to act in… Read more »
Do you appreciate femininity being defined by your ability to have a baby. A real woman pops out children?
So I take it your answer is yes, let my beloved wife and children drown! They should have learned to swim better, and anyway it’s their fault for not being able to grab a life boat like I did. Let the strong survive!
Well, I hope you have a long and happy life.
That didn’t answer my question. I specifically asked the question because you appeal unwilling to actually recognize the objection. Your imputation of malice against me, the assertion that I am uncaring and would allow them to drown, based on nothing but my asking you a question, suggests to me this refusal to recognize the objection is intentional. You have been told mulitple times, the objection is not with the actions of the men, it is with the assertion that it is expected of men specifically, as an aspect of masculinity. That masculinity is toxic in all forms EXCEPT in the… Read more »
“So I take it your answer is yes, let my beloved wife and children drown! They should have learned to swim better, and anyway it’s their fault for not being able to grab a life boat like I did. Let the strong survive! Well, I hope you have a long and happy life.” Nice shaming there. Do you even realize what us guys are annoyed at? I don’t think I’ve ever seen women post on a topic that they understood so little of, so far the women that have posted have gotten it wrong or reinforced the sexism. Is it… Read more »
Look, Archy, my point is that you don’t have to save anyone. If you are ever unfortunate enough to be in that kind of situation, what you does up to you. Will you be able to live with your decisions? That’s all I’m asking. Only you can answer that question in your own heart. I don’t expect you to save me or anyone. It’s a personal choice for each person if God forbid they are faced with it. It’s not about saving women vs. men vs. children. I suppose it’s about saving anyone at all. Why do anything to save… Read more »
If my husband ever does ANYTHING even remotely dangerous (ie getting out of the car to look at a flat while we’re on the road) I am plagued with thoughts of “what would I do if something happened to him?” and if something DID happen to him I think I would die of grief and guilt. If anyone, of any sex, felt otherwise, I’d be deeply concerned. That being said, if he and I and the kids were all about to be hit by a train, we’d probably both reflexively move to push the kids out of the way. This… Read more »
I wrote a comment about that earlier today. Look a bit lower.
I have no idea how a survivor feels after an accident like this. But I doubt that, in the eyes of society and according to gender roles, a male survivor would be viewed differently from a female one. And possibly(?) also have different feelings about it.
A soldier is just as likely to save a fellow soldier though, are women just as likely to save their husband? That is the key difference. Soldiers are raised, trained, expected, AND ORDERED to save their buddy. Men are the only ones raised n expected to save women, women are not raised n expected to sacrifice their life for adult males but only kids which both genders tend to get the expectation to protect anyway. Ladies, is this really so hard to understand? Only men are expected to save other men but far more they’re expected to save women whilst… Read more »
I don’t know if there are any stories of women actually dieing to save a man in media and movies. I heard of one case in real life, a cop, told second hand by another former cop. I somehow doubt any movie would accept a woman actually dieing to save a man.
Pretty much. Seems the only thing men are good for is dying for a woman’s benefit. Male disposability is the only aspect of masculinity that remains acceptable. And we’re told feminism is about dispensing with the harmful gender expectations. Ha!
I seriously do not understand why this is so hard to understand? Do us guys need to make an article on why it’s bad?