Garrett Brown — @GarrettABrown on Twitter — sent this tweet to us:
[blackbirdpie url=”https://twitter.com/GarrettABrown/status/295014071449841665″]
Now, to be clear, what the guy does in the commercial is not rape by any definition we know of. It is, however, most certainly an unwanted sexual advance, to a high school girl who didn’t see it coming. Watch it again, you can see her flinch. Is this really the definition of #bravery, as Audi touts? Is that how we want boys — coming of age and somewhat socially awkward — to think about the world? That all they need is one manly instrument — in this case a car — to turn them into a sexually aggressive animal? (The boy even howls at the end. You know, like an animal.)
Addendum: One commenter asks these questions as well: “What about the message that not having a date for a Prom is socially unacceptable, what about the boy should some how feel empowered to act rebellious because of a car, what about the fact that the boy became the victim of violence?”
Comments, please. We will publish the best in our Comment of the Day.
PS: The video posted on YouTube has the note: “You’ll have to watch the 1st of three alternate endings to the 2013 Audi Super Bowl commercial to see if his newly found bravery pays off.”
PS: Using a man-made product to “prove” your masculinity reminds us of the equally heinous ads by Bushmaster, which suggest that all you have to do if your man card gets taken away is to buy a gun.
That was absolutely one of the most offensive advertisements I have ever seen in my life. What the Hell.
This is what I took away from it. Dad fully knew what giving the car could mean. Son simply felt empowered to come out from the shadows and pound his chest like Tarzan 🙂
Interesting post! Considering this offers some insights into why this kind of message persists. Here’s the line of thought I’m running through atm: Many guys do feel, privately, to lack bravery when they are trying to meet women. And that lack of bravery can affect their chances – a man who isn’t afraid to go sit by someone and start talking will do better than one who is more passive. It takes both courage and a certain amount of disregard to inject yourself into someone’s day; a certain amount of “I don’t really care if you’re not and this annoys… Read more »
When women start making advances (for real, and not just giving up because it doesn’t work out for them. It doesn’t usually work out for men, either), then they can criticize this kind of thing. Until then, you play the game by the rules that exist, not the rules that would exist in a perfect world. And really, calling this ‘sexual assault’ is a big part of the reason I ignore all of that ‘1-in-4’ nonsense. You lump stuff like this in with actual rape, and you totally lose all credibility. Saying that indicates that you want to see this… Read more »
Really? you’ve never had a woman make an advance toward you? Somehow I find that hard to believe in 2013. In point of fact I get hit on more *now* that I’m pudgy and thus not as conventionally attractive. However when I was model thin (several illnesses and years ago) – and literally used to do petite modeling for extra cash – often I asked guys out because the nice guys who I wanted to date were often too shy to ask me out. Many years later I even asked a few and they thought I would shoot them down… Read more »
I think most men have not had women hit on them, it’s pretty rare. I’ve had zero women hit on me.
“In point of fact I get hit on more *now* that I’m pudgy and thus not as conventionally attractive.”
You are a woman right? Most women probably get hit on, most men do not. Many women still expect men to hit on them but don’t hit on men themselves.
But that’s the thing I don’t “expect” men (or women) to hit on me.
My preference is that people just start a conversation and go from there. Plus like I said if the other person is shyer than I I’ll often make the approach, not just in romance but in platonic friendships as well.
You are also not all women, I would prefer more women to be like you since it’d make it much easier for me to date as I am a shy man and I also think people should hit on those they like without sticking to silly gender roles. Thing is women like you are still pretty rare which is why many of us men haven’t been hit on, if that is surprising to you I’d rather live where you are since it sounds like women actually do hit on men there often.
I totally agree that men and women should not be able to try to kiss or put sexual advances on anyone they would like to… but I am going to continue to be present in each moment and determine when it is or isn’t the right time to kiss. If that moment calls for me asking first, I’ll do that… if it means we both go for it… great! Sexual assault is one thing… unacceptable. Trying to establish rules and plans to the beautiful dance of a healthy courtship takes away from what it is… a dance. I am agreeing… Read more »
@The Editors,
So, does it mean,
Wanted Sexual Advance = Bravery?
While reading and watching I could not help but recall one of my favorite Michael Jackson songs/videos, “You Rock My World”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4tpuu-Up90
What if the young man had stolen the principal’s parking spot, walked into the gym and up to within about 2 feet of the young woman, paused while looking her in the eye, stepped closer to her and and paused again before putting his arm around her, and leaned in for a kiss, giving her the option of meeting him half way or not? I think that’s closer to the way first kisses happen. I think it allows her choice in each successive step he takes, and allows him his dignity if she says no or steps back or turns… Read more »
Absolutely the wrong message! It perpetuates the image of women being property to be fought over with no consideration for their boundaries. He felt bad that he didn’t have a date, the car gave him confidence and the belief that he could take whatever he wanted.
“It perpetuates the image of women being property to be fought over with no consideration for their boundaries.” This is supported by the Prom King not so much Audi kid. “He felt bad that he didn’t have a date, the car gave him confidence and the belief that he could take whatever he wanted.” How do we know he wasn’t confident before? No back story so we don’t know. Same problem with what i will say next. So lets add back story in a positive way and give the kid and the creator the benefit of the doubt and say… Read more »
Even if she showed an earlier interest in him, does that warrent him coming up behind her and grabbing her for a kiss?
I also think we need to pay attention to the role the young girl is playing. She is Prom Queen. She is the trophy right? She isn’t just any girl at the dance. She is the epitome of physical beauty and popularity as symbolized by Prom Queen “status”.
Trophy? Maybe, maybe not. Could just be the most attractive person and be based purely on lust. Trophy I’d say is way too negative a label. If I wanna kiss miss universe, it’s not because she’s a trophy, it’d probably be lust. I don’t date people to have something pretty around my arm, I date people I am attracted to (though I go for a mix of beauty n personality, beauty alone won’t work for me). You can still see people as humans even if lust is on your mind.
Yeap, Trophy is a negative label yet it exists largely in perceptions of masculinity and what men have to “win” to be considered masculine. Such as the hottest or most popular girl at the dance. The reason the young girl in the commerical is respresented as Prom Queen isn’t because of some standard of equality among all the young girls at the dance. It is because the Prom Queen represents the epitome of trophy status. Like everything else in the commercial, it plays on stereotypes. I don’t think this needs to turn into a discussion about your personal life since… Read more »
Way to miss my point Erin, I am talking about how people assume he is someone looking for a trophy instead of assuming he just wants to share a kiss with someone he likes. A trophy is ONLY valuable for her looks, how do you know this person only values her looks? There is a shitload people are reading into this commercial. He probably did kiss the most beautiful girl at the dance, does that mean she is just a trophy to him? You can read it as that, or you can read it as his long-term crush depending on… Read more »
I didn’t miss your point. I disagree with your point. “A trophy is ONLY valuable for her looks, how do you know this person only values her looks?” Because nothing else is shared or expressed about her other then her looks and Prom Queen status. You don’t value someone for more than their looks when that is all you represent them as. You make a case for his shyness and make your own assumptions based on this. Is his desire to kiss her and over come his personal shyness of more importance then her ownership of her own body and… Read more »
Which is a great point about ownership of a body, but it still doesn’t imply she is a trophy to him. And when you say I wanted to talk more about my personal life, you failed to understand my point. Don’t tell me what I am trying to do, I know what I wanted to talk about and it wasn’t what you thought.
For me it doesn’t even matter if she’s the prettiest or a nerd or goth or whatever trope or type you want to throw in there. Or even if he kissed to Prom King (or some other male classmate instead).
People are people NOT toys or objects to win …
BOTTOM LINE: One shouldn’t be kissing someone else without consent.
I’m a bit late coming into the comments but here’s what I’ve got (and sorry for repeating what’s been said). From the tweet at the top: New @Audi comercial calls rape #bravery. This is what guys are talking about when it comes to shaming and mistreatment and sexism they face. Why is it that anytime a guy does something negative in the realm of dating/relationships/sex it’s called rape or there is an effort to liken it to rape? Mostly likely because the ones that make such associations are looking for something negative to attach those guys actions to. Get over… Read more »
Making a romantic approach IS bravery. Needing a car or other prop is a bit sad.
The fact that your approach may be unwanted is neither good nor bad; it’s a known risk of bravery.
I see a lot of people pointing out that the girl actually appears to enjoy the kiss. While I think that’s true, it’s sort of missing the point. I believe the point the author is trying to make is that you can’t assume that somebody wants you to kiss them. The fact that that assumption turned out to be correct here doesn’t meant hat it will in the real world.
I have been waiting to chime in until I could sort out my thoughts, but, I still can’t sort them out, so I’m just commenting anyway. Everything about this commercial is sending the wrong message. The boy does not have the “right” to kiss the girl, period. No matter what kind of car he drives. It is not brave to use anyone else’s body for your gratification without consent. Is it rape? Probably not. Is it some lesser form of sexual assault? In my mind, yes. And what sickens me is that we are told, via this ad, that once… Read more »
Alyssa, I’m there with you except for one thing. It’s not that it “lessens the odds we’ll get to kiss her;” It’s that part of the narrative says that women expect men not to ask; indeed that they prefer that men not ask and instead just go for it. It’s a fantasy for no small number of women to find a man who understands what she wants without having to ask. And so women are taught not to express their desires explicitly, but rather to rely on cues and clues that the guy is supposed to pick up on and… Read more »
And so women are taught not to express their desires explicitly, but rather to rely on cues and clues that the guy is supposed to pick up on and correctly interpret to know whether his advance will be welcome or not. There is no shortage of essays and articles on this very site promoting that idea. Indeed. Consider this gem from Dr. Nerdlove: I walked up to the far corner of her table. “Hey, can I see what you’re drawing?” I asked. She looked up – she didn’t notice me as I’d walked over – and I smiled. I nodded… Read more »
So a guy needs to display the perfect confidence and assertiveness, but at the same time “ask for permission” in a way that “respects her boundaries.”
Seems easy enough…
I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist of sorts, but sometimes I can’t help but get the feeling that feminists want to make dating as difficult as possible for men. It’s like walking through a minefield with these women. And to the extent that it is difficult, big whoop, life’s not fair, man up, etc.
I’m not saying that Alyssa and Joanna personally are trying to make men’s dating lives more difficult, but the feminist dating advice they espouse certainly has that effect.
If you look at how dating works in our culture, and at all the weird ways that shame muddies the water, it’s pretty apparent that things are a bit screwed up. It would be a much better world where asking was sexy and everyone could have clear and mature discussions about their sexual needs and desires. That requires changing some of our dominant social paradigms, and will be a challenging task to accomplish. But, it’s absolutely a worthwhile endeavor because in the long run it will improve society. However, any change is likely to take years to accomplish, which is… Read more »
I’m sorry, but I don’t see how what you suggest would bring about change. Can you point that part out to me? I keep re-reading what you wrote, and perhaps I’m being dense but it sounds like you’re advocating for more of the status quo.
Yeah. Everybody on every internet discussion board where this subject comes up is in favor clear, open and mature discussion of everyone’s sexual/romantic needs and desires, but nobody ever has any idea of how we get there from here. My own feeling is that no one, men, women, gay, straight, whatever, wants to have to deal with the amount of rejection that all that open, honest discussion would necessarily require. It’s not BEING rejected that people want to avoid, so much as it’s having TO reject that keeps us hiding behind plausibly deniable, unspoken, non-verbal, and implied communication in tying… Read more »
I think Novati’s first paragraph shows he’s all for the change. The rest isn’t suggestions for how to effect that change, but how to make the best of the status quo, seeing as how so many people seem to want that kind of change but you can’t just decide to “date different” and have success. I don’t pretend to have answers for how to “get there from here”, but I’m pretty sure suggestions that lead to more rejections and fewer dating/relationship opportunities *for either or both genders* will not go over well. I think a lot changes to dating/courtship flow… Read more »
Nick, I totally agree with you. We have to reframe this for both men and women, from the get-go. It has to be sexy to ask and tell. Which, Bay Area Guy, would make dating a lot easier for everyone. If men didn’t feel like they had to not only initiate everything, but that they didn’t have to play guessing games with women. (We are being hetero-normative here, because the Audi commercial was, but I think this is true regardless of gender and orientation.) What I would like to see is a world in which consent and communication were the… Read more »
But if this is an example of “R C” then it’s women who created it. Here’s an example of a guy who has “all the right possessions” and did get the girl right here on GMP. https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/the-good-life-i-had-an-affair-with-a-married-man-and-i-dont-regret-it/ On top of that the woman who wrote the article still can’t get over the guy and is unhappy with her husband basically because the husband _doesn’t_ have “all the right possessions”. — “I have read enough of the comments that say, “but if we ask, it lessens the odds we’ll get to kiss her.” Yup. And that, right there, makes our point.… Read more »
Frankly, the more I read comments from women advocating that men “ask for permission” or that “yes, asking does reduce your odds of success, but so be it,” the more I realize that feminist women simply cannot be trusted to provide good dating advice to men.
I’m not presuming ill intent on their part. Their hearts are probably in the right place. They’re just too naive. And as they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Bay Area guy, you made me laugh, because “the feminists” of which you speak kicked me out of their club long ago. But in all sincerity, and with an absolutely genuine interest in solving this problem, let me ask why it is bad advice to ask if someone is interested in you and move on if they’re not? It’s not like you can / should be with someone who doesn’t want you. Or that you don’t deserve to be with someone who truly does. While you may not “score” that night, is that the point? And if it is, which… Read more »
It’s not that it’s bad advice, it’s that it’s not universal advice, which makes it about like practically every other piece of dating advice. If a guy is consistently an asker or not-asker, he has to rely on luck to encounter a compatible woman when the opportunity presents itself. If his natural bent doesn’t mesh with the majority of available women in his area, even if it would work great in some other place, too bad for him. If he has the knack for reading people, either naturally or through practice, then he improves his chances by reading her and… Read more »
“But in all sincerity, and with an absolutely genuine interest in solving this problem, let me ask why it is bad advice to ask if someone is interested in you and move on if they’re not? It’s not like you can / should be with someone who doesn’t want you. Or that you don’t deserve to be with someone who truly does. While you may not “score” that night, is that the point? And if it is, which is fine, then it’s even more important / efficient to locate the person who wants the same thing at the same time.… Read more »
But in all sincerity, and with an absolutely genuine interest in solving this problem, let me ask why it is bad advice to ask if someone is interested in you and move on if they’re not?
Because even if she might be interested in you, the very act of asking possess a significant risk of turning the table to your disadvantage.
I don’t know, Drew said it so much better above…
Which is why we have to work on women too. Consent has to become an integral part of foreplay. There are MANY people who find it hot, I am definitely one of them, for the reasons that I listed way up above – if I know I’m safe and respected, I’m much more likely to relax and have great sex. I would never suggest that women don’t play self-defeating games, I promise, I’m not that clueless, They do. So do men. But we need to work together to end them. And it can’t just be about “scoring,” or we will… Read more »
@Alyssa Royce:
I’m a very timid man, and it’s not like I’m advocating something like this.
I was just trying to give a sincere and somewhat concise answer to your “absolutely genuine” question above. We seem to have gone awfully fast from total confusion to a ready solution..
From the day we are born, we are brought up to the words of “Treat girls/women with respect!”. Yet we are forever left to stand around and see that it’s the boys who pull the girl’s pigtails that get all the attention.
“I have read enough of the comments that say, “but if we ask, it lessens the odds we’ll get to kiss her.” Yup. And that, right there, makes our point. You are right, it lessens the odds. And you do not have some “right” to kiss the girl. We have the right to say yes or no. Period. I can’t even feign regret that you don’t get to kiss the girl who would have said “No” if you asked her.” You did read what they said right? They aren’t entitled or thinking they have a right to kiss someone, THEY… Read more »
Well said, Archy!
FWIW, I’m with you all the way on this one.
I DO get angry with women who encourage non-consensual behavior. I absolutely do. And I do work on that from that side, because I think it is hugely important. I don’t see this as a battle between the sexes, but a battle between communication and non-communication. We have to teach women to reward positive behavior like kindness, respect, communication, asking etc….
This is a big ol’ mess, and it’s not going to be fixed by men OR women, but by BOTH.
It’s a huge mess indeed. There are huge amounts of frustration with dating, a real lack of universal desires is part of that. Some like being asked, some hate being asked, so asking can turn a woman off who likes you or it may turn em on. I want to know why it’s such a turn off, do they feel the same towards sex too?
“And what sickens me is that we are told, via this ad, that once you have the right material possessions – the expensive and fancy ones – you are able to go “get the girl.” As if she is a prize buck on a hunting expedition. So, right there, you’re telling guys that they have to have the right things – be rich – and they you can get the prize. The prize. The “thing” you win by having the right moves, that you get from having the right things. Wrong.” To piggyback on this, it also teaches men that… Read more »
@AlyssaRoyse…
This sounds so lacking in romance and spontaneity. It’s like a toddler asking if he can have more ice cream. I am big on spontaneity and reading a woman’s body language.
If you had been making out already, the fact that you are going back to his place IMPLIES there is more to come!
I just
@Alyssa Royse “And what sickens me is that we are told, via this ad, that once you have the right material possessions – the expensive and fancy ones – you are able to go “get the girl.” Because there IS a lot of truth to this Alyssa. I know you and Joanna do not wish to admit to it, but many women still remain hypergamous. They flow to the men with the greater resources and status. Do you know of any male groupies? There are even studies indicating that some women experience more orgasms from sex with a wealthy man.… Read more »
Because there IS a lot of truth to this Alyssa. I know you and Joanna do not wish to admit to it, but many women still remain hypergamous. They flow to the men with the greater resources and status. Exactly. I think the reason why feminist dating advice is so lousy is because, as I mentioned earlier, it’s incredibly naive. Feminists see women through a very idealized lens. In other words, as wonderful. Many don’t want want to admit that women can be just as shallow as men. Hence Joanna’s old comment that Ryan Gosling’s “look” or behavior works so… Read more »
Some ≠ All. And no, making out does NOT automatically imply a willingness to have sex. And perpetuating that is why a lot of date rapes happen. I am not denying that it happens, I am saying that it happens all the time, and it’s not always okay. Yes, sometimes it is. Great. But a lot of times it’s not, and that is not a risk worth taking. I am well aware that there are both men and women who are attracted to both power and wealth. But there are many who are not. So I think it is dangerous… Read more »
But no, it is never okay to walk up behind someone you are not in a relationship with and kiss them without their consent. Or fuck them, which would much more obviously be rape. [Emphasis added.] No, not “more obviously rape” – fucking them without consent would be rape. That other thing, where you kiss someone without consent…that’s not rape. Not just less obviously rape — not rape. This kind of hyperbole is a big reason why I have such a hard time taking the concept of Rape Culture seriously, because the working definition of “rape” in these discussions seems… Read more »
Some very fair points there, and I admit that my frustration is allowing sloppy language. Let me try again, which isn’t to say we’re going to agree. This commercial does not depict a rape. I said that many comments ago, but it would be impossible to track all the comments in a thread like this. It does depict a culture in which it is okay to just “take” the woman to get whatever gratification you think you need or are owed. It also depicts a culture in which owning the right things means you win the prize, which is usually… Read more »
Alyssa, the terms you use, “just “take” the woman to get whatever gratification you think you need or are owed”…is it possible instead of taking he wanted to share? Seems to be viewing it from this place of she has something he wants, instead of wanting to share a kiss with her. The language I am seeing doesn’t take into account any romantic feelings he may have, he may not want to take her at all, he might want to SHARE with her (though he picks a terrible way to do it imho). A rapist takes, someone kissing their crush… Read more »
And how sending the message that women are prizes, that you can just claim if you have those things is harmful to both men and women?
What never seems to be mentioned is that in this view, wealthy men are just as much prizes as (“hot”) women are.
The complaints over “women as prizes” fails to accept that dating (mating) _is_ a competition. Ultimately any woman (or man) is a prize to the people who want to date (mate) them.
The complaint rings hollow every single time I hear it.
There is a difference between a prize that is won, handed over like property to a victor, and a treasure that is found. I look at it as treasure, for which we had to sort through a lot of crap and overcome a lot of obstacles and were somehow fortunate enough to find and choose each other. Not a prize at the end of a game that someone handed to me because I successfully completed some externally ordained set of tricks and therefore deserved it.
Am I the only one here utterly turned off by the thought of dating as a prize or treasure? I don’t want to date someone I find as a prize, I wanna share experiences with them and goto the fair n win prizes there, we would be lucky to have each other but seeing it in a transactional model or reward system is icky.
Hi I’m Archy, if you get 1000 points I will have sex with you, helllll noooooooooooooo.
Nope, I’m right there with you. The prize idea makes me sick, which is why I tried to do the buried treasure thing….. But maybe that’s not different enough. I feel so insanely lucky, every day, that I found My partner. He seems like treasure to me, but sure as hell not a prize that someone handed to me. The transactional model makes me sick too. Gotta find a better analogy, I’ll keep trying. It’s chemistry, right. Maybe it needs a scientific analogy – alchemy? Our love and relationship is something we made together, that just worked. I had a… Read more »
I like chemistry, it gives a romantic touch and also some mystery. I also say “we mesh together great”. Finding a great partner, being lucky to do so. Or even just saying you found great love, love is far better than any prize since a prize is usually won once yet love continuously updates itself and keeps that bond tight.
Agreed. I don’t want a prize I want a partner.
Danny if there’s another guy interested in the woman you consider an ideal partner, and you through your head/heart/looks do enough that the women would rather be with you than the other guy is that not in a sense a “win” on some level because you out “competed” the other guy?
Jimbo, but it’s about what she wants, not what you want. It’s great – and lucky – when you both want the same thing. But she gets to choose, period. It shouldn’t be about beating the other guy. At any point. It’s about a right match, and that has to be fully mutual, or it isn’t a right match.
Jimbo, but it’s about what she wants, not what you want. It’s great – and lucky – when you both want the same thing. But she gets to choose, period. It shouldn’t be about beating the other guy. At any point. It’s about a right match, and that has to be fully mutual, or it isn’t a right match. How about we revise that to saying *both* the initiator and the object of their advances must choose to proceed for it to be a good match? It’s a little clunkier, but at least it doesn’t give all the power to… Read more »
Alyssa, whatever way you put it, as long as we perpetuate the idea of monogamous relationships it’s still about selecting one person above any other…
My very best friend is married since almost 15 years to a very sweet and beatiful woman who, when they first met, was engaged to another guy. They both fell in love instantly, and just a couple of days later she had dumped the other guy and was seriously dating my friend.
Now, use whatever analogy you like, but I don’t think you in any way can deny that my friend “won” the dating game over this other guy?
You say your fiancee is a firefighter and crossfit trainer which means that no one is going to question his “man credientials” no matter how he approaches a dating scenario including a first kiss. Easy for a guy like that to “ask permission” before kissing when no one will be wondering if he’s confident, assertive, or “masculine” in the moment to be turned off by the asking. Now contrast that to me in my mid 20s, a soft spoken college grad who was working at a library. Do you really think I (or another man in a similar position) had… Read more »
Actually, he’s so shy that I almost didn’t go out with him a second time because I was afraid I’d hurt his feelings if we didn’t continue after a few more dates. He is, in many ways, the most feminine man I know. Yes, he asked first, at every major first move, because he is that respectful. And yes, it took me aback. At one point I did have to tell him that I was afraid I’d hurt him, that I wanted to make sure that he wouldn’t let me steam-roll him with my considerably more assertive personality. He laughed… Read more »
He’s also 5′ 4″ and has the same body measurements as me. So no, not a huge guy.
Initial reaction: I really don’t like the initial twitter comments’ declaration of rape which is clearly “rape washing.” It ruins any chance of credible discussion in some cases and dilutes the power/meaning behind the word when someone really is raped. To the video: Many women expect men to react on certain cues, be they body language, words, tone, and/or environment so who’s to know that she didn’t previously do or say anything? We do not have any back story to base any of our perceptions on, so don’t try while claiming Audi is a bunch of misogynists. Personally I believe… Read more »
Hey everybody the point is that it’s a commercial selling a sexy, expensice car. Cut it some slack.
I started to read the comments and then just skipped to the end. So if someone has already raised this point forgive me of the reiteration.
First, it’s a one minute commercial. Second, we are only shown what’s taking place in this one minute. The amount of extrapolation other comment
I`ve been surpise kissed by girls several times, twice unwanted also after the fact. Calling that sexual assult is crazy and creates far more problems than seing it as an advance that gets turned down.
This is a very tricky issue, and it’s very hard for me to see that what this young guy did was rape. And I agree that she did seem to at very least have mixed feelings about; and perhaps liked this unexpected kiss. And and I do think a lot of young women like a guy with confidence and are not crazy about guys who are afraid to “make a move” at all. I have been out of the dating game for well over 40 years, but I do remember when I was in high school and college that I… Read more »
Our assumption of the backstory and our own experiences really determines how we could react to this commercial. Joanna this commercial obviously struck a chord with you, and not in a good way. I had a similar experience with a girl who latched on to me at a party, and I, like you kissed her back and then pushed her away… I then went on to tell my girlfriend at the time about it because of the guilt I felt…and then it was all forgiven and forgotten. This begs me to ask though, are you comments about the commercial or… Read more »
Sure, I’m upset about it because of my experience. It gives me insight into what it’s like to NOT be asked to be kissed by some random guy, which is what happens to this girl. Take my experience out of this. Every situation’s different. If you’re on a date, or at a dance, and you’re dancing close and gazing lovingly, or if you’re sitting in a quiet car and she’s leaning into you, you could try it. Seems less risky. But if you’re at a party chatting, or even on a date and it’s not obvious, saying, “I so want… Read more »
Would you still consider it not worth it if the alternative was having any possibility of romance excluded from your life forever? Which is not unlikely to be the alternative given the strong revulsion that the vast majority of women express towards men who don’t just kiss “spontaneously”.
To me, it’s always best to ask/communicate the first kiss. Like I said. It can be super hot. That’s great for you, but like others have said, it was my experience that asking only ever reduced the chances of a girl wanting to kiss me. I was so painfully shy about it that I sometimes didn’t kiss even when I thought the odds of wanting it were on my side, but I refrained not for fear of rejection, but for fear of causing the exact reaction you’re talking about, of her feeling violated. The only physical escalations in dating that… Read more »
It’s sad that men have to try these kisses without asking, I don’t think Joanna may realize what her fellow women are like. What she is advocating is going to make men look less attractive in many women’s eyes apparently, reducing the chances of romance because for some reason many women like to be kissed without asking and find asking a turn off? I’d rather there be more Joanna’s, it really bothers me that someone would be so bothered by asking as the women you n others describe. A confident man to me asks for permission as he respects her,… Read more »
For what it’s worth, Archy, I think that being asked is the sexiest thing ever. And on a very deep level, it signals to me that I am safer, and therefore more likely to relax and be open to sex – and more fun sex. If I know, straight up, that my boundaries are going to be respected, then I am much more open to anything. I wish more guys understood that. My sweetie asked me before he kissed me the first time, which is why he got a great kiss. He asked me before we went back to his… Read more »
I agree with you, Joanna,… it’s awful being surprise-kissed like that…it happened to me when I was with a bunch of my grad school friends in a bar…and this creepy looking bearded guy was edging into our group and trying to surprise kiss the girls in our group…I was so shocked when it happened to me…it was so fast and surreptitious….he’s lucky my BF (now hubby) and his best friends did not notice or something would have happened to him….!
Gross! Blahh!
So he was creepy based on his looks alone? Or was he acting creepy but looked like a normal person?
@Archy: My friends and I were in our 2nd year of grad school (age 22 -23) and all hanging out together with our group in a tiny packed bar….the stranger kept cutting into our group and then would tell each girl how gorgeous/pretty/whatever she was and then try to surprise kiss her on the sly… he was scruffy, middle-aged, 40’s – 50’s (long greyish scraggly hair and beard and woolen hat…definitely, more homeless bum type [definitely not Mr. Big from SATC!!]….I can’t remember too many more details…I have tried to block it out !!)….[My friends all played football together after… Read more »
Well I hope you only call him creepy based on his actions and not his looks, otherwise you’re proving what many men have said on the creep-shame thread where peoples looks are often called creepy vs their behaviour, thus ruining the the creep label as it becomes too loose in meaning.
Okay, the boy becomes a victim of violence because he kissed a girl without her asking. That’s on him. We presume the girl’s boyfriend is the one who punched him, and presuming that, is it right for a guy to feel so proprietary over “his” girl that he should punch someone? Beyond that, if the girl punched him, should he be celebrating? Thing is, we don’t think it’s the girl who punched him because she smiles and looks happy after the kiss. This commercial could have been 100% in the clear had he just said, “I’ve been wanting to kiss… Read more »
Indeed, impossible to know, not worth the risk. It’s very common in movies though.
Thank you for acknowledging that, Archy.
It’s so easy to say something sexy and playful before kissing someone to confirm that’s what they want. I talked about this before:
https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/why-its-dangerous-to-say-only-bad-guys-commit-rape/
Problem is what you think is sexy n playful in asking to kiss/do something, other women get turned off by. Those women want the guys to kiss them without asking for some dumb reason, so if the guy does kiss without asking it’s all good for them, if they ask it turns em off and ruins the guys chance. Weird but that’s what guys are saying is happening in the comments here. World needs more Joanna’s and less weirdwomen who get turned off by being asked.
We are told over and over again in articles and in comments that women value confidence and assertiveness. The kid was being assertive for once in his life. Not to mention many women hate and are turned off when a guy “asks permission” to kiss. In my dating years I had one girl tell me promptly end a date when I asked if I could kiss her with, “ugh I can’t believe you asked to kiss me, just take me home.” When we got to her place she said, “nothing is lamer than a guy asking permission to kiss a… Read more »
In all the discussions online I’ve seen about asking before kissing the vast majority of women have said that you should never do it and they’d never be interested in someone who did. I’m not sure that can be described as “mixed messages”.
As usual, Jimbo nails it. This is precisely the kind of contradictory double bind that guys are put in. They’re the ones who have to do all of the initiating, and showing confidence and assertiveness without really giving a crap has time and time again proven to be quite attractive to women. And yet, how are they supposed to be confident, assertive, and even spontaneous when they have to “ask permission” to kiss a girl? I mean, as Jimbo said, how lame does that come across? It’s like guys have to take all the initiative, and yet sign some sort… Read more »
I actually think the way to reverse what you guys are talking about is to make it easier and more socially acceptable for girls / women to make the first move.
The other thing I’m wondering is — say it was an ugly girl going up to a handsome guy at the prom and doing that. Would you like the commercial as much then?
I actually think the way to reverse what you guys are talking about is to make it easier and more socially acceptable for girls / women to make the first move. Absolutely! The problem I think is that there isn’t enough will, including among most women, to really push for this change. I find it somewhat bewildering. On the one hand, women, feminists, and other activists have fought tooth and nail for women to enjoy representation within congress, the senate, corporate America, top universities, etc. And yet they’re still afraid of making the first move for fear of being slut… Read more »
It’s part of the reason we try to have such open conversations here — so both men and women can see things from different points of view, and work together to what is most helpful to everyone. I’d love for women to feel confident enough to make the first move, quite frankly.
@Lisa…..
Personally, what is stopping you?
It makes no sense to have an open dialogue here but then revert back to the status quo ante.
Women MUST take greater ACTION. When a woman wants to have sex with a guy, she certainly knows all the things to do to make sure that happens.
So, what is stopping you or other women?
Because women can take a passive role and still be hit on far more on average than men, so there’s no real need for them to do more initiating. Men would have to stop hitting on them, although here that is already happening to some extent as more n more guys are shy. There are a few women I’ve seen complain of never being hit on though, I sure hope they’ve tried to hit on men, I guess they get to see what it’s like for men.
Nothing is stopping me, personally, Jules. I am a proponent of it. I don’t have time to date at the moment, but believe me, I, both now and in the past, have simply had very honest discussions with people I’m attracted to. It didn’t even feel like a “first move” by one or the other of us, but a clarity that the way we were connecting always made it easy to advance to the next stage. Sometimes I’ve been the initiator, sometimes not — which seems exactly as it should be. My daughter — seventeen, said to me last year… Read more »
“As for other women, why they don’t initiate — I couldn’t tell you. It almost seems unfathomable to me.” I feel like I should respond to this, because I’m one of those women who almost never asks a guy out. I’m currently in a relationship, but I’ve spent a lot of my life being single or dating casually. So I have a fair amount of experience in this area, fortunately or unfortunately! If I’m interested in a man, what I do is try to flirt and seem approachable, hoping that he will ask me out. Over the years, that strategy… Read more »
Wow. Men always complain that women don’t initiate more, but I think their fantasy is that they would be pursued by dozens of really hot women. Is it all about physical beauty? Well, I believe the answer is yes — for the most part. Personality and character is only a critical consideration for men when they are thinking about a long term relationship, and even then, they have to be strongly physically attracted first. I would argue that it’s different for men because women usually don’t make up their mind about a guy immediately. Heck, he might even have sex… Read more »
@Nick Pavlidis, what is wrong with what I said? You don’t think men want to date women who they find physically attractive? You don’t think men reject physically unattractive women? Tell me one thing I said about men that is inaccurate. Also, I’m not blaming men or saying they are bad. You can’t change what gets you going.
You really don’t understand what was so wrong there? If I had written a post saying that women were just cock teases looking for chumps to buy them free drinks while hoping to find a man with a large cock and loads of money, you’d write me off as a misogynistic lunatic (and rightfully so). Aside from the offensive gender stereotyping, what I found in your post was a bunch of rationalizing for why you don’t approach men. It’s your life, so do as you please, but don’t pretend your rationalizations are somehow due to the character of men rather… Read more »
Nick, in past years, I did experiment with asking guys out. IT DIDN’T WORK. I finally realized that the reason it didn’t work is because I am not attractive enough — most men are not interested in me. In fact, this is something men have actually told me. At least if I wait to be asked out, I know that the guy sees something in me and wants to get to know me better. That is not an assumption I can make otherwise. I don’t think you have any concept of what it is like to be an average/plain woman.… Read more »
Also Nick, if you are telling me that men don’t care about a woman’s physical appearance or that they would consider a relationship with a woman who they don’t find physically attractive, well that’s news to me. Other than telling me I’m sexist, you haven’t disputed my central point at all.
Sarah, I thought your post was interesting. I’m not quite sure what Nick is picking up on either; it seems pretty obvious to me that guys and girls both prefer to go out with more attractive mates, will appreciate more assertiveness from approximately equal mates, and don’t care for excessive sexual attention from people they aren’t attracted to. I don’t know that this ‘excuses’ not being more assertive, since your situation is exactly what every guy suffers through when they go into a bar (except, as you say, the most naturally attractive). If I step into a bar or mixer,… Read more »
Like most men, you are only thinking about hiw nice it would be if attractive women did more pursuing. Because the rest of us are invisible to men. First, you clearly – comically even – don’t know what I’m thinking. But your quote there does give me assurance that I didn’t misread you the first time. So, since I have to spell it out… When guys say they want women to also approach, it’s not because they salivate at the idea of a dozen hot women chasing after them. Maybe it’s simply because they’re shy. Maybe it’s because they, like… Read more »
Sarah, it’s the generalizations of men that triggered Nick I assume.
Nick, look, I don’t disagree with what you said. It IS tough on men to have to be the initiators. But you are still missing my main point which is that of course men want to be approached more — BY WOMEN THEY ARE ATTRACTED TO! Not necessarily “hot chicks,” okay. But women who are attractive. They don’t want to be approached by women they AREN’T attracted to! Who does? Nobody, and I mean NOBODY likes being the recipient of unwanted sexual attention from someone they aren’t interested in. It is awkward. It is embarrassing. It really isn’t flattering, it… Read more »
I can’t tell you how many guys in college told me “you are really nice but I only date attractive women.” Actually I relate a lot better than some women do to the rejection men face. While I don’t doubt your experiencing guys telling you that if you say you relate to the rejection men face and then come up with this: Like most men, you are only thinking about hiw nice it would be if attractive women did more pursuing. Because the rest of us are invisible to men. Then I’m wondering exactly what men you are relating to.… Read more »
OK, I see now. Sarah, your main point in contention seems to be that guys don’t want to be approached by anything but the very hottest playboy-mansion chicks. That’s wrong. I would trade having to deal with random people I’m not attractive to striking up conversations if it meant I also meet some girls I am (even if they don’t think so). There was another point worth investigating, though. If I may be so bold as to summarize, it was that guys can tell if their interested on sight, and girls can’t, but instead must have some conversation first. Therefore,… Read more »
@Jon, I just realized from your comment that I am coming at this from a completely different direction than you, Nick and Danny. You said, ” I would trade having to deal with random people I’m not attractive to striking up conversations if it meant I also meet some girls I am [attracted to]”. I totally get that. It would be better for the average guy if a lot of woman approached him on the off-chance that he’d be attracted to some of them. If he is a shy guy who doesn’t approach women, his normal chance of meeting someone… Read more »
From my position, however, the math is different. Say, in the course of a year, I meet 100 available men and 10 of them feel attracted to me, and of those, 5 are willing to initiate something (ask me out, or whatever). So out of those 100 encounters, I have potential dates/relationships with by 5 interested men. But I approach the other 95 men, I will get 90 rejections. So doesn’t it make more sense for me to focus on the 5 who approached me first? The math for men is exactly the same. Which is why I characterize it… Read more »
Well Nick I guess we just get back to the question whether asking men out would help me get more dates or relationships or whether it would be a waste of time. I’ve learned it’s mostly a waste of time. I have to do what works, not what doesn’t work. Should I waste my time asking out men who are likely not interested simply to make a point about gender equality? I mean, who would really notice or care about that? What good does it do me, or the uninterested men I ask out? Zip.
Well, by your own math, it would double the number of potential matches you meet.
Do what works for you. Or doesn’t work. That’s all about you and your happiness. But let’s not deny the experiences of men, or project upon them motivations and beliefs, simply because it makes the story you tell yourself sound better.
Sure I would. The commercial isn’t about sex or gender it’s about the triumph of the underdog, taking risks, and going out of your comfort zone to to achieve something.
A commercial with a homely girl kissing the prom king and getting slapped by his girlfriend would be just as good.
Here’s an even more important question: If it were these same two people, and he kissed her, and she pushed him away, then walked away and cried in a corner, would you still be cheering for this underdog? Because as far as we know from this spot, it could’ve gone either way. I’m not saying he shouldn’t have been assertive. I’m not even saying he shouldn’t have kissed her. I’m saying that kissing her out of nowhere, with no indication that she wanted it (and the fact that she was at the prom with her boyfriend and was in front… Read more »
“Simply, he could’ve said, “I’m dying to kiss you” and waited to see her reaction. That would’ve been bold. And it would’ve been hot.’
But as several guys here have pointed out, that is decidedly _not_ hot to a large number of women (I daresay the majority in the US). That’s a reality the writers were working with.
Just the US? Try Western women everywhere….
Forgive me, Joanna, but by your own admission, you and the women you know live in an atypically educated, affluent, and progressive area.
The average guys out there cannot count on most women having your kind of attitudes towards dating.
(ie. girls asking guys out, asking for permission is hot, etc)
I’m not saying he shouldn’t have been assertive. I’m not even saying he shouldn’t have kissed her. It kinda sounds like you are. I’m saying that kissing her out of nowhere, with no indication that she wanted it… How do assert that without making assumptions about the backstory? Why do you rule out the possibility that she’d been interested in this guy, and the message is that the car finally gave him the confidence to act on that interest? Or maybe the’d been interested in each other but he was too afraid to act on it and she was too… Read more »
The commercial trades in familiar stereotypes and gender role expectations to sell a product. Nothing new there. The product, in this case a car, transforms him from an insecure teenage boy to one with growing confidence and a sense of rebellion. First he rebels against authoritarian norms by parking in the principles reserved spot, then he rebels against social norms by being aggressively forward with someone out of his social caste. Simply, he could’ve said, “I’m dying to kiss you” and waited to see her reaction. That would’ve been bold. And it would’ve been hot. I doubt it. Or rather,… Read more »
They have a point Joanna, one guy above actually got ditched for asking for a kiss, there are women who do not want men to ask for a kiss and will dislike it very much, telling them they should just do it. It’s impossible to know if she wants the kiss but there are some who will hate people that just kiss, with a feeling they are too entitled whilst others will hate those who ask with a feeling they are too cowardly. We can err on the side of caution but who is right? And which is more common?… Read more »
To be clear, the mixed messages aren’t coming from a single source. You have some women, Joanna being one, who want men who respect boundaries. Then you have some women – speak up if any are reading here – who want men to just go for it. There’s a lot of uncertainty for the initiator out there, both men and women, so it’s no surprise that we retreat to culturally prescribed scripts. I think a lot of men want to be respectful, but are fearful that if they don’t follow the script they’re going to end up lonely. Hence the… Read more »
@Lisa…
No one is stopping women. It is 2013.
I am a straight male so perhaps I’ve completly off target here, but was the guy in this commercial ugly in any way? I thought he looked pretty conventionally attractive.
I definitively think that if the guy had been ugly the reaction towards this commercial would’ve been very different.
I am a straight male so perhaps I’ve completly off target here, but was the guy in this commercial ugly in any way? I thought he looked pretty conventionally attractive. I think for the sake of time (ads are made to be short, sweet, and to the point because literally every second costs money) the establishment of “ugly” was the fact that he was going to the dance by himself. According the logic if he had been attractive he would have been able to find a date to the dance, thus not needing a bravery boost from the Audi. In… Read more »
(New here, found this comment thread by googling “Wow, sexist Audi Super Bowl commercial” to see if I were alone in how uncomfortable it was for me to watch.) I’m not sure it’s as mixed a message as you seem to think. The women that seem to want you to go for it? The example you provided was within the context of a date. One I presume you asked her on (or that she asked you on) indicating a willingness. You can gauge interest in a kiss without having to ask for it; “god I want to kiss you” and… Read more »
OK, old hags and spinsters to one side please. The girl in question was OBVIOUSLY cast as a soon-to-be-proponent of “pokemoning”. You’re ignoring the obvious fact that it’s the male character’s first kiss, and the oppression he’s experienced over the entirety of high school left him feeling like he was less of a worthy person that the jock who “owned” the girl. The father gives a single sign that “You’re a man now, son”. Son grows to enjoy the thought that he is no longer inferior, but equal to his former oppressors. Fact is, BOTH characters, kisser and kissee, are… Read more »
Hey, sexist language. “Old hags and spinsters” – let’s be clear that language like that is unacceptable. And not that it matters but I’m 35 and have never been called a “hag”, far from it, nor am I a spinster. I’ve been happily married to a handsome man for 9 years.
I just don’t want images like these to go forward in our media any more. Everyone has a right to bodily autonomy.
To those who think its fine because she turned out to be ok with it: the point is that he didn’t know whether she would or not, he flipped round someone and kissed her, it was clearly an unwanted, unasked for kiss, whether she seemed to enjoy it after the event or not. Let’s not forget the cultural myth that women only pretend they don’t want men, that if you just force a kiss on her she’ll magically melt into your arms rather than ask what the fuck you think you’re doing. How many ‘romantic’ movies use this exact same… Read more »
It was an unasked kiss, but her actions clearly don’t appear to show it’s unwanted. Unless of course you can not want something, continue to engage in it, smile, and seemingly enjoy it?
Archy, how did he know beforehand that she wanted it?
This whole thing is actually too personal, and too upsetting, to continue talking about.
No one could know, he did it, it worked, she wanted it. Not rape, not unwanted sexual contact, just rare as hell and not a good idea to try. Sorry to say but what you experienced is worlds different from what this video was about, in this video the kiss was fine. It’s fantasy and not advisable, nor is peeling out from the lights unless you want a ticket.
No don’t be ridiculous, he needed full written consent notarized by a Justice of the Peace before smooching can commence…
Well seeing as how we saw, a minute of the kids life, I’m not sure. Maybe she said “you should kiss me” or something similar well before hand? As people have pointed out, its very rare that people respond well to kisses from random people. So its probable that this WAS NOT a kiss from a random person.
While I don’t think the video portrays the kiss as being unwanted, it’s kinda besides the point: It was unasked, and he had no reason to believe it would be wanted. The whole commercial is glamorizing taking liberties with other peoples possessions and other peoples boundaries, all while packaging it up as “Bravery”
It’s not hard to see how that’s a problem.
This is the teen age guy equivalent of Thelma and Louise. Same plot lines, just switched genders. Isn’t that movie praised by the fear and shock crowd here.
I don’t care what your gender is, you shouldn’t pull this shit.
Obviously this isn’t rape, but it is the kissing equivalent of it, it is definitely sexual assault. Stealing a parking spot is less egregious, you could argue if the principal deserves it anyway, but assuming the principal owns that space, that act counts as theft. So here was have a guy committing immoral acts and benefiting personally from it. Isn’t that the definition of evil? I know after watching 11,000 Hollywood movies you might associate “EVIL” with something else, but again he’s performing acts which might not be the worse thing ever, but are still obviously immoral, and the consequences… Read more »
Unwanted? She totally kisses him back!
I could be wrong about this but…..Unwanted? Umm, watch the ad again, she flinched at the initiation but did not push off, did not indicate any negativity and even smiled at the end. There’s nothing rapey about it, but it is RISKY as hell to ever do because you can never be sure the outcome will work like that. Hell if my partner flipped me around without me knowing who it was and kissed me I’d flinch too, doesn’t mean it’s unwanted, but it means it startles, this add is showing someone kissing another who apparently clearly enjoys it and… Read more »
All good points “Nikki” it sells an image of what guys think being cool is, didn’t think it was offensive, just normal advertising. I am the father of 3 girls, all with good heads on their shoulders and was not offended buy the commercial.
Would this commercial change for you if the same thing happened, but the girl was upset about the kiss?
What about if it were your daughter, kissed in front of everyone, by a boy who wasn’t her boyfriend?