Good Discussion: On Porn and Strip Clubs

Porn and strip clubs: The one thing we can say is that the influence on all of us is huge, for better or worse. As I wrote in my original piece, “Getting Off”:

I was at a dinner party recently with the CEO of a company involved in the video infrastructure of Verizon’s FiOS service. He told me (in gory detail) how the capacity constraint on the system is quite literally being driven by $14.99 pay-per-view pornography. He was understandably amused by the stupidity of guys across the country, who eagerly consume porn movies—only to turn them off after an average of 18 minutes. A porn purchase lasts 15 percent as long as a two-hour movie and still drives the capacity requirements of the entire system.

There is no topic more important, and more fraught with controversy, than the evolution of male sexuality and how that does and does not make us better fathers, husbands, and men. My son is 15 and these are topics that are frequently discussed at our dinner table since my belief is that not talking about it is far worse than the risk of exposing a young man’s mind to the reality of the world.

There were some amazingly thoughtful, and contradictory, comments on pornography and my interview with the manager of a Scores. Take a read and let us know where you come out on what it means to be a good man in a world dominated by sexuality bought and sold through the internet and in strip joints.

Comments in response to: Getting Off

I just want to say that I believe in freedom of speech, and that porn should not be criminalized. But I also have the right to criticize it.

My first and biggest criticism of porn is how unrealistic it is. The women are anorexic thin, airbrushed, and obviously surgically enhanced. This is not one particular “style” of porn, it is the mainstream of porn. And what people see repeatedly is what they expect. Now, thanks to unrealistic porn stars, women are getting their asses waxed and bleached, boob implants, and even labioplasty (having their lips reduced, so the genitals look more like a slit in a barbie doll than an actual vulva).

And then there’s the act itself. As more than one poster has commented, the “sex” (I put it in quotes to show irony) portrayed is mechanical and selfish—it’s all about the in and out. Foreplay and female pleasure don’t even get considered. And this is what people (men & women both) are being sold as what sex is. I’m old enough (and outspoken enough) not to get involved with men who have been ruined by porn—I can tell them right away. But I have known many younger women—beautiful, smart women—who have been made to feel like dirt by selfish boys who demanded they conform to porn ideals. Can you imagine a woman looking over a naked man with that kind of critical eye? “I’m sorry, but your anus is way too brown. It looks dirty.” Or, “God, your balls are saggy. You know there’s a surgery that can tuck them back up so they look perkier?” Or even, “Ooooh, it’s so hairy. Yuck. Could you shave first?” Men, would you tolerate that kind of treatment? I would hope not.

—Scryberwitch

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One thing that amazes me about the wrangling over pornography is the big dirty elephant in the room that so many people avoid mentioning. Blog comment after blog comment, shots from the left and right of the political spectrum, tons of ink spilled on all the issues related to pornography, and yet virtually no mention of (oh, my God, no!) masturbation. Isn’t a lot of the discussion about porn deep down really just a discussion about masturbation without mentioning it directly? That’s like having a huge debate about illegal drug use and never mentioning that drugs can feel good.

—Anonymous

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Considering how shrilly, entitled and generally vacuous Western women have become (think Real Housewives of … as an example of the standard being presented), why does it surprise anyone that men would opt out of the dating/marriage game? What, do feminists and their white knight manginas actually think that banning/regulating porn would somehow make us ignore the institutional bias and media-controlled anti-male agenda?

Go back to your cats and lattes, flakes.

—LoveKraft

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I viewed pornography for a long time before I met my wife and after I met my wife … w/o her knowing about it. It created in me an insatiable appetite for things my wife couldn’t give me and took my mind to places I couldn’t help but go. She could not fulfill me, because porn was creating a false idea in my head about what she should be doing. Although, it couldn’t be seen outwardly, I was withdrawing from her and picking every moment I could muster to get my kicks looking at other naked chicks.

When she discovered my secret life, it created an incredible rift in our marriage and one that I took full responsibility for. She cried and cried and cried because she felt so “cheated”. Yes, she was mad that I “cheated” on her … but she was more upset that she wasn’t fulfilling me. She didn’t feel attractive or beautiful or loved knowing that I was getting my rocks off at some other chicks expense.

The rift took a while to overcome. I don’t view porn now. And let me tell you … my wife has never looked more beautiful. She is my sole source of insatiable love, lust, physical emotions and I wouldn’t have it any other way. Porn has a way of eroding all that.

—Papa K

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It’s too bad so many women get their granny panties in a bunch about porn, because porn is best shared. My wife watches it with me sometimes and it’s wonderful. And she’s secure enough in our relationship not to go batshit crazy when she knows (but never actually sees) me watching it alone. The women who consider that “cheating” are the real problem. You can’t cheat if you never actually make contact with the other person. And just because you get married or commit to a relationship it doesn’t mean we stop fantasizing from time to time.

—Daddy Files

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I had been in a long tern relationship with a man who was emotionally distant and sexually dysfunctional at times. His anxiety turned him away from me, away from sex therapy and right into internet porn. He is such a good, sad and lonely man and I lost him, for a number of reasons, but with porn online as a ready outlet the impetus to connect with me at any level at all ceased almost entirely. I’m not some granny panty ugly chick with her knickers in a knot. The man I loved was far from a perfect male model, but *I* found him sexy and loveable.

He was predisposed to be avoidant with intimacy, but when it started expressing itself in our sexual and then emotional lives it became intolerable. Promises to stop watching online porn were repeatedly broken. He became compulsive, sneaking in my daughter’s room to watch porn on her computer when she was not there so it would not be on his work computer. Catching him in the middle of the night while I slept alone, untouched.

Men, please come back to us. We will make you very happy, but dealing with REAL people will be more complex than porn. It will be worth it. The devastation to my psyche is inestimable, and I have a font of warmth, acceptance and for good, decent, respectful gentlemen. I just despair now of ever finding one, Porn is viral and I think it is contaminating relationships.

—Eileen Sullivan

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I think too much is made of pornography being an evil vice. There are people that can drink responsibly and there are those who cannot. There are people who will play a few dollars on the lottery and there are those who will go to a casino or track and blow their entire paycheck in a few hours. There are people who can view pornography for the entertainment it is and there are those who become obsessed with it. In each case, I find it very doubtful that we are going to try prohibition again or perhaps ban gambling any time soon.

The ancients decorated their pottery and buildings with erotic scenes. In the 11th century, a Japanese noblewoman wrote what is considered to be the world’s first novel, “The Tale of Geni.” It related a series of sexual exploits in fairly graphic detail. “The Plum in the Golden Vase”, penned in the 16th century, is considered one of four great classic novels of Chinese literature and told a story that was extremely explicit even by today’s standards. Even the Victorians and Edwardians, even though those generations were considered sexually repressed, enjoyed erotic photography. Remarkably, during the Victorian era, hysteria was considered a symptom of lack of female sexual fulfillment and was treated by manual stimulation of the patient’s genitalia by a doctor until she experienced “Hysterical Paroxysm”…more commonly known as an orgasm.

Pornography can be a means of sexual release. Pornography can also be part of a healthy sexual relationship. Pornography is no more prolific in today’s society than it was a hundred or a thousand years ago; it is just more available.

—Randy Strauss

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I’m with Randy. (PS: I have several sets of “hooker shoes” myself, but it’s OK; I only wear them when I’m dressed as a drag nun.)

—Bennett

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Most women have sampled male porn, but most men have never looked at or read a romance novel. How about a discussion of why men use the porn they use and why women use the porn they use?

—Jed Diamond

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Porn is lethal for me. I said good-bye to it 5 years ago and haven’t looked back or had regret. In my experience the cause was a severe case of suppressing, hiding and denying emotions I didn’t know how to express. Those shadows I didn’t want to expose and take a hard look at. Porn is just one of many pills we take to escape.

—Bobby Bakshi

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Comments in Response to: Inside a Strip Club

Thank you for presenting a realistic portrayal of the gentlemen’s club industry. There are so few in the mainstream news media, probably because the story that enforces the drug-addicted stripper is so much more interesting than the story about the stripper who saved her money and retired financially free.

As an 11-year veteran, I’m one of those in the boring second category. I now teach new and aspiring entertainers how to do the job wisely, how to manage their money smartly, and how to position themselves to transition out of the job when the time is right.

—Rebecca Avalon

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If you’re interested in the mindset of a large money earner in strip clubs read “Make Love Like A Porn Star” by Jenna Jameson. she described how she became the top money earner in any club she worked in. women work in those clubs to make money pure and simple and they use men to make their money, it’s nothing personal and if you can’t wrap your head around that then you shouldn’t go in there … I don’t anymore but I don’t have anything against the women who earn a living in there.

—gameon63

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Using Jenna Jameson as an example of the “mindset” of a sex worker who’s made bundles of money points out the reality that many women who work in the sex industry—like Jenna—have experienced sexual abuse or incest or rape during their childhood or teens.

Jenna, who grew up without a mother, was gang-raped and beaten as a teen; the infamous pinup Betty Page was sexually abused by her own father as a child and also gang-raped as a teen. These are tragic glimpses into the early formative sexual experiences and emotional health of the sex industry’s big “successes.”

Commercialized sex is not healthy, not natural sex, but about power and control and pits the genders against one another in a battle to see who can exploit or use or humiliate the other more. Men and women both come away from these experiences feeling more objectified and less compassionate, less connected as human beings. We can do better than that and should be working towards that, instead of finding ways to channel human misery and alienation into one more moneymaking outlet.

—Becca

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Having done extensive research on sex work and trafficking, I wanted to put my two cents in regarding your previous source’s claim that running “The Professional” obscured the realities of violence against women and girls in the sex industry.

Making space for the diverse voices of women and men in the sex industry does just the opposite. The one-dimensional portrait of sex work that many focused on trafficking put forth is deeply disrespectful to sex workers, and makes it impossible for those who choose the industry to organize for their rights as workers (since the nature of the dialogue has already foreclosed any possibility of their agency).

Similarly to the conflation of sex and rape, it also trivializes abuses that do take place in the industry (if all prostitution is abuse, there’s really nothing noteworthy about trafficking, for example). Finally, the assumption that all sex work is exploitative betrays highly problematic assumptions about the immutability of female victimhood and male cruelty and aggression, neither of which are progressive or useful to efforts for social change. This isn’t a zero-sum game, and protecting the right to choose not to be in the sex industry does not require pathologizing and silencing those who view it as a legitimate occupation.

—Heather Berg

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I made it a point the numerous times in my “sentencing” to be working in cities, to take the time to talk with sex workers. When I first started doing this … while student teaching in Kansas City, I was living on the edge of a red-light district, with an adult theater half a block from my apartment building, with hookers on the corner, and I had young hookers in my classes in the high school I taught. As a long-haired hippie, I was non-threatening, and became friends with those outside the school, as well as counselor for those in school. This meant conversations with hookers, strippers, masseuses, call girls, skin mag models, video actors … the gamut. I always found a sense of amazement in listening with people whose lives were so unlike my own.

For me, sexuality had always had an immense social structure surrounding it that condemned women for the open enjoyment of their sexuality, the open exploration and expression of their sexuality. Largely religious in roots, nonetheless, the very nature of our language condemns women for their sexuality as anything other than holy “lovemaking.” It sickened me as a kid in high school watching how my fellow males treated girls they wanted to schtup, wanted to party with … and then snicker about them being “sluts.” So males wanted open and free access, while wanting females to pay the price for that access. I find myself today often listening and challenging women in their 50s and 60s who find themselves divorced … and for the first time in their lives … feel like their sexuality is really theirs to explore … as they want.

I use to teach Soc of Sexuality classes, and I pushed students to really listen in themselves as to who exactly benefited by how they viewed the world of their arousal. Who benefited from who they condemned in the expression of their sexuality? Where was freedom in their understanding of arousal and sexuality? It pushed them to let go of efforts to make everything black and white, and to learn to be comfortable in the more murky waters of gray where moral order imposed on people becomes immediately visible as violent and disempowering. Then they could more adequately wrestle with why exploiting men for muscle and sweat was somehow different, or not, than exploiting women for their vaginal canal and sweat.

—Mark Chaffee

 

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About Tom Matlack

Tom Matlack is the co-founder of The Good Men Project. He has a 18-year-old daughter and 16- and 7-year-old sons. His wife, Elena, is the love of his life. Follow him on Twitter @TMatlack.

Comments

  1. These comments really touched me:

    But I have known many younger women—beautiful, smart women—who have been made to feel like dirt by selfish boys who demanded they conform to porn ideals. Can you imagine a woman looking over a naked man with that kind of critical eye? “I’m sorry, but your anus is way too brown. It looks dirty.” Or, “God, your balls are saggy. You know there’s a surgery that can tuck them back up so they look perkier?” Or even, “Ooooh, it’s so hairy. Yuck. Could you shave first?” Men, would you tolerate that kind of treatment? I would hope not.
    —Scryberwitch

    Jenna, who grew up without a mother, was gang-raped and beaten as a teen; the infamous pinup Betty Page was sexually abused by her own father as a child and also gang-raped as a teen. These are tragic glimpses into the early formative sexual experiences and emotional health of the sex industry’s big “successes.”
    —Becca

    For me, sexuality had always had an immense social structure surrounding it that condemned women for the open enjoyment of their sexuality, the open exploration and expression of their sexuality. Largely religious in roots, nonetheless, the very nature of our language condemns women for their sexuality as anything other than holy “lovemaking.” It sickened me as a kid in high school watching how my fellow males treated girls they wanted to schtup, wanted to party with … and then snicker about them being “sluts.” So males wanted open and free access, while wanting females to pay the price for that access.
    —Mark Chafee

    Men, please come back to us. We will make you very happy, but dealing with REAL people will be more complex than porn. It will be worth it. The devastation to my psyche is inestimable, and I have a font of warmth, acceptance and for good, decent, respectful gentlemen. I just despair now of ever finding one, Porn is viral and I think it is contaminating relationships.
    —Eileen Sullivan

    The last comment by Eileen really resonates with me. It’s so simple: “Men, please come back to us.”

    I’ve had alot of experience with the men in my life, boyfriends, and porn. I’ve personally experienced that most men don’t want me to be me in the bedroom. Sure, they want me to moan and have fun and “let go”, be wild, even orgasm; but they don’t want me to get there by really being me. By just being a “normal girl”. They don’t want me and my sexuality. They want porn sexuality, where I mimic the fantasies they enjoy through porn. Where I act more like, dress up and respond like the girl’s they’ve been watching in porn since the tender age of 11. And I’ve done that. I’ve done things I didn’t really want to do because the guys I cared about wanted it, because it was so “normal” to them. I just want to be me. But that’s not want excites most men I’ve known. They can’t be excited by regular girls anymore doing *normal* things.

    I try to always pose this situation to men. Think of a polar universe. Where porn is flipped around. It’s not filled with the standard stereotypes we can all make about women in it. Gone are busty young women playing submissively and catering to male sexual desires. Instead this porn is filld with standard stereotypes about men. This porn is filled with the worse and most debasing things a woman could want to use a man for. In this polar universe, porn instead is comprised of attractive, hard bodied men. In this world, it’s your wives and daughters that want to stoop the “teenage” school boy. It’s your wives that want to stoop the male babysitter you and her hired to watch your children. In this porn it’s your wives and girlfriends that get off to men being called all levels and kinds of names that deminish your masculinity. While the men in these movies act like they love it. These men have good looks and are rich. In these movies that women so enjoy, these men are used, not necessarily for just sex (because that’s a male fantasy) but they are used for their money. Women take advantage of them, use their money, use these men for their money, the bigger and more money the man has, the more and better enjoyment a woman gets from using him. And the man in this movie LOVES being used for his money. He smiles, he panders to it, he acts like being used for his money is the only thing he ever lived for. And when she tapped him of all his resources? She kicks him out. She gets another man to fill his place, she tosses him aside for another man. Slowly going through man after man, using them up and tossing them out when they no longer fulill her desire for money. You might think this sounds silly. It’s not. That’s the industry of porn we have currently towards women. Where women are used for sex, then tossed aside for the next girl and the women act like they just LOVE being abused sexually for the pleasure of a man because women deserve to be called names, smacked, choked right? If women sincerely had an industry that treated men like porn treats women, men would be being used for their money, kicked to the curb, called names, and the men in these movies would all act liek there was nothing else they lived for but to give women money. How many fathers would want their daughters enjoying that industry? How many husbands would trust the respect she had for him if she enjoyed these images? I don’t think many would. But so many men enjoy, defend and encourage porn. I see many men spend more time defending pornography, sticking up for pornography then I see them stick up for the real normal boring, not as blindingly sexually obvious women in their real life. Their wives. Their girlfriends. Their daughters. Their mothers. Too many men act like white knights for porn, too many men side with porn. Over the actual woman in their lives.

    And really, it’s only getting worse. it’s no longer the monthly Playboy coming in the mail. We have young boys and girls growing up on hardcore porn. And I don’t think most parents are exactly having the conversations they need to tell their sons that this isn’t the way to treat a girl. Or telling their daughters that they don’t have to look or act like that to be beautiful sexual women. Why would most parents tell their kids that when their parents WANT their own partners to act like the movies anyway.

    There is very little in porn that’s sincerely about expressing a shared and sexual human experience.

    • Tom Matlack says:

      “They don’t want me and my sexuality.”

      What a profound and sad comment.

      Thank you for responding so honestly to this discussion.

      • Tom:

        The timing of this rerun on this piece could not have been more poignant and painful. We sold our home a few weeks ago and I just found out tonight that he lied to me about not being able to find a place to move into. He just “bought” the home of the woman who bought OUR old home, a colleague of his at the college where he teaches. I wrote this to a friend just moments ago:

        “Oh, and I caught [my ex] lying again. He BOUGHT the house of the woman who bought ours but only AFTER we sold ours to her (she teaches at his college, did I tell you that?), but her house was never on the market. They made an under-the-table deal but he didn’t want me to know until it was done. As it was he called to see if I’d been killed by the tornado (no luck) and I could tell he was lying when I asked him about the house hunt. He obviously knows my son could catch on to the boondoggle if he didn’t tell me so after much avoidant speech (“It depends on what the meaning of IS is.”), he told me the barest details. He has known about this for a LONG time, before the sale. I suppose it is all very legal, but this is just a sign of the dishonesty I have lived with my entire life. He wonders why I mistrust everything he says and does, but I have never ONCE gone looking for a lie when I haven’t found one…from the very start. I am in bits. Not over HIM but over what a shell my life became in his hands, how worthless I now feel. I used to be confident and young and happy and good looking and in love. Now I hide in my apartment all day reading and writing. BY CHOICE. And you KNOW what good friends we are, Bill, but except for my closest girlfriends, all of whom live out of town, I am closest with electronic “friends.” What does THAT say about my willingness to let “real”people into my life? It says to ME that I prefer distance now to risk. That I have become a creature of the mind alone and not comfortable existing anywhere but cyberspace. And my apartment. SHIT!”

        Yes, I am venting to you, Tom, but as a Good Man, I hope you will understand. The thing with porn is NOT even so much about sex as it is honesty, candour, a willingness to be totally open with your partner. I am not a neo-Victorian hypocrite and I TRY to be open-minded about it, but the industry starts with an evil, predation upon injured people who need to make a living, and continue forth, hurting everyone in its path. It’s not sex. It treating people as a means to an end and not as ends in themselves, and this is destructive in all of its forms…porn or lying. I read The Good Men Project because I WANT so much to believe in its message, Tom. Life, however, has shown me that it has very different talking points.

    • Erin, I agree with where you’re coming from as far as the way porn can distort men’s attitudes to women, but this statement has a clue in it that the men you’ve been involved with have been inauthentic, low-calibre kinda guys:
      “I’ve personally experienced that most men don’t want me to be me in the bedroom.”

      Even at the basest level, I want the woman to “get there” being herself, because it feels better for me knowing that it’s real and that I made it happen. The more real, the deeper the connection, the better it feels. If the guys you hang out with don’t even get this, just tell ‘em to move along.

      • Graham, it would be easier to define these men as “inauthentic, low-calibre kind of guys”. Because then we can seperate oursevles from them. But that just isn’t the case. My relationships haven’t been perfect, *I* haven’t been perfect. But no one is that black and white. Some good guys that go to bat for their families like debasing porn of women. Some good guys, like to do things to women they would never want other men doing to their own daughters. What goes on behind closed doors is sometimes a different face we show the world. What goes on behind closed doors isn’t the sum of who we are either but it is a facet of what is inside us. Do I think these men are horrible, bad man? No. They can still be good guys. But they are also conflicted men. They’ve been looking at porn since they were little boys. I think they are both a product of our social media and a product of their own weakness.

        The men I’ve date have spanned retail sales to stock brokers. Have been graduates of state college to ivy leagues. Some of these men had good parents that were still married. Sisters and brothers they loved. Friends that they would be there for. These men would open doors for me, take me to nice places, watch movies together. Normal relationships stuff. But in the bedroom, I just have found that so many guys want me to be more pornstar then anything else. And I think they honesty DO want me to have fun, reach orgasm and all that good stuff. But they didn’t really want me to reach it by just being me. If I had a nickle for every guy that asked me to wear a school girl skirt, I would be rich…. okay well that makes me sound kind of skanky and it really hasn’t been that many men I’ve been with. But the men that I have been with, most of them seemed to enjoy that fantasy. And it goes beyond just dress up. There are certain sexual acts that have been so “normalized” that more then not, guys skip right over even asking me if I want to do them. They just assume I do because heck, all those pretty girls in porn sure do like it. We all say “porn is fantasy”. So when does porn stop being fantasy? I think it stops being fantasy when we bring it into our bedrooms and act those things out. How much stuff have people brought from porn into their real world sex lives? I’d bet a lot.

        But I think that’s wonderful that you celebrate a woman being herself in the bedroom with you, the deeper connection. That’s a wonderful trait in a man and the women that date you are very lucky.
        But my experience is that I think a lot of guys are scared of that deeper connections to be honest. So they hide behind it assuming intimacy is shared through the more aggressive sexual acts.

        Again, I don’t think men that like porn are “bad”. I just think there is something terribly broken in how we view our sexuality and relationships. In men and women. Because I played my own part in catering to certain things and not being confident enough to ask for what i wanted or how I wanted to be treated.

        • Wow. I tried to stay away from commenting but I can’t take it anymore.

          I’m a good man. I also look at porn. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. I will not have people such as yourself tell me I’m “a product of my own weakness” because I view porn from time to time. That is lunacy!

          So a guy wanted you to dress in a short skirt. So what? You view that as bad?? Look, if you’re not into it and he still persists, that’s one thing. But knocking a guy for liking a certain look is crazy. My wife has a short skirt that you could say resembles a Catholic schoolgirl type outfit. And it’s unbelievably hot. I love it. And there’s certainly no reason I should feel bad about it.

          There is nothing wrong with wanting to spice up sex. You say you don’t view men who watch porn as bad, but then you criticize them for trying to bring aspects of it into the bedroom. But I bet you’d have no problem with a guy emulating some cheesy romance novel, covering the bed with rose petals and having completely vanilla, missionary-style, “non-porn” sex right? Hell, that’d be romantic right? Ugh…

          And let’s just stop with the whole “men are afraid of a deep, intimate connection so they act aggressively in bed” bullshit. I’m married. Been so for five years. My wife and I have shared everything together, including porn. There are things she won’t do and things I won’t do. We respect those boundaries. But we also test them every once in awhile too. And sometimes—gasp!—it’s after (or even during) we watched porn and saw a move that might work. And sometimes we are aggressive in bed, but I assure you it has absolutely ZERO negative impacts on the vast emotional connection I have with my wife.

          Look, if a man (or woman) is addicted to porn and it runs his/her life, that’s a bad thing. Obviously. But I’m just so sick and tired of people using porn as an excuse to bash men when I’d lay heavy odds the women who are complaining are simply insecure about themselves. I know it’ll be unpopular, but some women are TERRIBLE in bed. Awful. And I can only speak for my own experiences, but those women are usually the ones complaining about this kind of stuff. Just food for thought.

          The bottom line is do what you want. Find someone sexually compatible. But if they’re not compatible because they like rough sex or they have a kink fetish, just don’t have sex with them. No need to bash or blame porn just because you disagree. Let’s live and let live and stop all this friggin nonsense.

          • I think the issue is men who have been trained by porn to see sex as nothing but a series of sexual acts (the more extreme the better) for their personal gratification. If your girlfriend/wife enjoys dressing up in a schoolgirl outfit that’s one thing. If you insist on it because it gets you off, and you don’t care how she feels about it, that’s completely different. There is a way to spice up sex that enhances the connection and there is a way of doing it that is dehumanizing to your partner. I broke up with a boyfriend once because every time we had sex he had to act out some porn fantasy. If I didn’t enjoy something he fantasized about, he would act like I was destroying the whole experience for him. A big issue we had wss over anal sex. I let him try it once, and the pain was so bad I almost threw up. He didn’t care, he wanted me to do it again. Why? Because that’s what he liked watching in porn. The porn stars love it so why shouldn’t I love it? What was my problem? He was also critical about any little imperfection in my body. Ironically, after I dumped him he spent weeks calling me and crying that I was the love of his life. Sad.

            • Sarah, touched on something important. If I don’t want to do the things he’s seen in porn, then “I’m no fun”. *I’ve* ruined the experience because I’m not as fun as the girls he’s been trained to enjoy since he was a boy. Sarah’s experience with her ex and his assistance toward anal sex is one thing that’s become really popular with men because porn makes anal sex seem normalized. But if you read stories about what porn stars have to do AFTER all that anal sex, it’s really disgusting. Some girls are never the same again. They are literally wrecked. And there seems to be a common theme in porn where the guys LIKE seeing the girls wrecked to a point.

              DaddyFiles, in response to your comments, it’s just not that black and white of an issue. I haven’t drawn any lines in the sand that claim porn watching men = bad and non-porn watching men = good. I infact previously said that there are good men that love their family and friends and treat them right but like porn.

              Lets be honest about the logistics of porn today and separate it from sexuality for a moment. Today’s porn is vastly more accessible, entirely free, is easily and anonymously acquired and seems vastly more misogynistic then ever before.

              I think that most men truly want to be good men, loving fathers, supportive partners, supportive partners that are all for their partner having a mutually good time in the bedroom. That’s why I think it’s so hard for many guys to admit the disfunction and hypocrisy in the porn industry.

              I just think that men today are much more porn obsessed then previous generations. In my earlier dating yes, I didn’t encounter the problems I encounter now with men. Granted, I am more aware and have more experience now. But I don’t think this was the problem it was over a decade ago. And no, this is no way makes men “bad”. But there is a real problem here. A real problem that I see is having negative results. And not just with me. I’ve talked to other women that had similar experiences. And other women that have a more resigned sad “I accept porn because I love him and he loves porn” take on it. And of course, there are women that enjoy it as well.

              But as a woman, it’s not fun seeing an entire industry that loves to project you as a worthless sex toy, to be told you’re only sexy until you hit 25 to which point your man is going to want to go back to picturing doing a school girl, to be called a vast array of awful names, to be included in sexual acts that have NOTHING to do with the pleasure of the woman in it, all the while creating the image that women love to be abused for sex. If women had an industry that mirrored men’s industry of porn, then women would be using men for their money and kicking them to the curb after he fulfilled her desire for money and all the men in the movies would act like that’s all he ever lived for.

              You don’t want to be vilified for your enjoyment of porn. But women don’t want to be vilified through porn. And we often are. Whether it’s calling women over the top sexually negative names, to projections of breast implanted 18 year olds. These aren’t positive ideal of women.

              And yes, I have criticized men that wanted to bring elements of porn in the bedroom. As is my right! Some didn’t even ask me if I wanted to do something, they just did them and it happened so fast that afterwards I was left thinking “what just happened”. And these were boyfriends that afterwards wanted to make sure I orgasmed and had a good time. It’s not “just fantasy” anymore. So I really fail to see the connection you are trying to draw between me expressing my dislike for things men have done in the bedroom with me vs saying men are “bad”. It’s been my experience that too many guys let their sexuality be lead by porn and start requesting and praising their partners who act more like said pornstar then themselves.

              You mentioned that you look at porn and it has nothing to do with your personal relationship. But it has a little to do with it because it’s something you and your partner enjoy within your relationship. You do things you see in porn that interest you. That’s between you and your partner and I would never claim to know what is right or wrong for *you*. I only speak of my own personal experiences. And I’ve experienced too many men that were clearly living out scripted porno fantasies that had nothing to do with *me* and my sexuality.

              And I take full responsibility for catering to those “fantasies”. I wanted to please them. I wanted my guy to be happy. And I think that’s the trap many women fall into. Their desire to please their partner overrides the desire for what they may *really* want in the bedroom. Especially true for younger women.

              We will have to disagree on porn being a weakness or not. There is nothing in porn that requires anything good from a man. Porn doesn’t even depict men well either. You can be a good man and look at porn but there is nothing in porn that makes a man a better man for watching porn.

              I don’t view a guy wanting to see a girl in a short skirt bad. I view the whole school girl thing as kind of messed up because so many guys asked me for it. It’s not a stereotype for a reason. I’m pretty petite anyway so maybe that’s why I had more of those experiences but still, that fantasy isn’t about me. It’s about him. Dressing up in clothes that show off your body more for our partner can be very fun. I love to wear sexy things in the bedroom. But for me personally, in my experiences, I am sick of guys asking me to pretend I’m a school girl. That’s the difference. I want him to want me to dress up because it’s me, not because some really hot girl did it in a porn and he really liked it.

              It’s totally not wrong to spice up sex. I’m all for it. I think rough sex can be just as fun as softer sex. I think dressing up in heels and garters is sexy. I like being dominated in the bedroom sometimes. I also enjoy romance and candle light and vanilla sex too. But I think there is a fine line between what we desire and what we think we desire because of pornography. I think there is a fine line from “it’s just fantasy” to desiring that the fantasy be real. I just think people can spice sex up without porn. Socially, we are letting our sexuality be created by people selling an industry. Porn is about selling an industry first. In my opinion, sex is actually way down the line on what porn is really selling.

              By the way, I would be the first to admit to you that I have many insecurities! But I refuse to let you use the whole “they are just insecure” argument to downplay real feelings, honest experiences and issues with porn. You’re not allowed to defend porn then turn around and condemn me or other women for having completely natural insecurities about their bodies or their abilities to please their partner when men gravitate to an industry that is all about setting up narrow ideals about women’s bodies and actions. It’s plain wrong.

              Oh, and don’t worry, your insidious commentary about how women that complain about “this kind of stuff” are usually the ones that are bad in bed didn’t go unnoticed. Maybe I am bad in bed. Maybe I’m not. Either way, that’s not what really matters here. But it’s a very sneaky ploy to write me off automatically as someone that has less passion because of my feelings towards porn. That right there says you tie your sexuality close to porn. That someone who doesn’t enjoy it can’t possibly be a fun, sexual person.

              But you are right about one thing. I am bashing porn. Not women. Not men. Porn. Because I think there is a lot wrong with it. I hear so many people say, “ “it’s just fantasy”. But when does it stop being fantasy? When you stop wishing you were banging some porn girl in favor of a newer one? Or when you ask your partner to be more like said porn girls because you like porn so much? when do we stop believing that porn is “just fantasy” and that fantasy doesn’t infact say something about how we view the other gender.

              Again, you think I’m saying men are bad for liking porn. I’m not. Neither am I vilifying men. Porn already does a really good job of vilifying both genders. I just wish more men had their eyes open to that. And instead of acting like the defenders for porn, acted like the defenders for the real normal women in their lives. The women that are actually by their side going through all the pitfalls of life with him. But too often, whenever this discussion comes up, there are so many men that openly choose to protect pornography.

            • Has it ever occurred to you that some men like “porno” sex not because they’re hooked on porn, but simply because that’s their preference? Some guys love anal sex, and it has nothing to do with porn. Some guys prefer hardcore stuff you’d see in pornos, but don’t personally look at porn. It happens. Quite regularly.

              If you run into such a man who tries such things in bed, you view him as a porn-obsessed pervert. Another clueless man whose mind has been poisoned by porn. When in reality, he just has vastly different sexual proclivities than you do. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that! Yet you judge him because, as you clearly said, “there is a lot wrong with (porn).” But what you’re really saying is there’s a lot wrong with him because he likes a different brand of sex.

              By the way, there are all types of porn out there. It’s not all DDs and implants. There are all sorts of fetish porn out there consisting of women dominating men (or other women), chubby chasers, MILFs…you name it, there’s something for everyone.

              So if you don’t like it, that’s fine. That’s your right. Search someone out with a sexual appetite similar to your own. But don’t judge men and jump to the conclusion that just because they have a specific kink (such as anal), that they’re brain-addled porn zombies.

              You have a very narrow view of things.

            • Daddyfiles, there is something very key that’s being missed in this discussion. Today’s porn is vastly more accessible, entirely free, is easily and anonymously acquired and seems vastly more misogynistic then ever before. These are facets you want to continue to ignore. But I think you see the truth in what I am saying.

              It can’t be all these things without vastly changing dynamics of how me relate to women and sex. And my experience is that it has changed dynamics. You don’t have to like it. But that’s what I’ve experienced.

              This has nothing to do with your ridiculous statement in thinking men are “brain-addled porn zombies”, but being honest that men have a weakness when it comes to sex, women and their relationships to women, their desire for sex and their desire to feel like men.

              Men liked anal sex before porn, sure. Men also liked blowjobs and a host of other sex acts. I never claimed they didn’t. But now it’s almost like men just expect certain things because those pretty porn girls sure do like it a lot. And they expect them rougher and harder because that’s how they like to see the women in porn treated. These things are no longer special because they are so normalized and too many men just expect that you should do them. And please be honest enough to admit that most things done in porn have nothing to do with bringing pleasure to the woman in it. Yes, men like to see the women having a fake good time, but they could care less about her having a *real* good time. So many sexual acts in porn aren’t about bringing women pleasure unless men now think that a woman’s throat contains her clit and jackhammering sex feels good to her.

              And yes, you are right, there are many types of porn out there. And it’s just like you said, if women don’t fit into the DD implants teenaged stereotype, then they are consider a “fetish”. So please stop trying to act like porn doesn’t set up unrealistic stereotypes for women. Please stop lying to yourself and creating this porn that is so “equal”, “fair”, and celebratory of women and their bodies and femininity.

              Most porn infact contains a certain set of women that fit into young, busty and perfect looking. And the ones that don’t are considered “fetishes”. Just as you pointed out. If a man likes a girl that has a different body type from thin and busty he is a “chubby chaser”. But you notice how the negative name is all about the woman’s body. Because what woman do you know thinks it’s heart warming to be called “chubby”. If a man likes women his own age or older she is a “MILF”. But “MILF” is just another way to fetishize women that aren’t 18 anymore. These “MILFS”, are they really 40-50 year old women with children or are they late 20 year old girls that in the porn industry are already used up in terms of what men *really* want to see. A woman can’t exist in porn without being put into a box based on her body or age and called a name for it. Not a positive name. Not a positive stereotype. Not a positive box to be put into. Do you like being pegged into a box DaddyFiles? My guess is you don’t.

              You are right. I don’t like it. I don’t like that so many men stick up for and defend porn OVER the real woman in their life. Good men too. I don’t think men are bad for liking porn. I think there are some serious conversations we need to have about what’s happening with men today and porn. And it’s only getting worse with each generation.

              I don’t think any man here, you included, would like to see your wife, daughter or female friends get off on an industry that treated men like walking wallets to be used for his money and kicked out after he no longer was any use to her anymore. All the while this man being used acted like he loved every minute of his use and abuse.

              You told me not to judge men. How am I judging them? I didn’t once say men that liked porn where bad. I just see a big social problem. A white elephant that some people don’t want to address.

              Perhaps you should take your own advice and not judge women. Not judge women that don’t like porn. (why do you even think women should like porn since what porn is about is using women like sex objects?). Not judge women that find issues with it and not judge women within porn where they need to put into tiny little boxes based on the usefulness of their body for male pleasure. What is porn if not something that completely judges and stereotypes women? But that kind of judgement is okay right? It’s okay to call women B*tches, C*nts and other names. It’s okay to say “well this women is old so she is a MILF” and this women is fat so she should be put here. That’s okay right? I love the irony and hypocrisy in you as a man not wanting to be judged for supporting and industry that does nothing but judge and use women. So freaking frustrating. Once again, it’s okay to use and abuse women but how dare men becalled out out for their liking of an industry that if you were honest DaddyFiles, would admit is pretty nasty towards women. Unless you are a man that would encourage his daughter or wife to go into the porn industry. Maybe you are. Maybe you would see no problem with your daughter or wife being in that industry since you seem to think it’s such a good one for women.

              I am just so sick of guys feeling threatened by issues being pointed out in porn and acting like the attacked gender when it’s women that are being set up to fail, be called names, be treated like they are NOTHING but a toy for you to jerk off on.

            • Wow. You’re hopeless.

              Porn is not real. You know that right?? It’s a movie. A movie with sex. And the women in said movies are being compensated. They’re also there willingly. So while you ignorantly decry the misogynistic aspects of porn, you gloss right over the fact that some of the women VOLUNTARILY involved in porn are making a living off it. A select few reach stardom and celebrity status. Which is empowering, not degrading.

              I know there are certain types of porn where men jackhammer away at a woman faking a good time as every available orifice is invaded. I don’t deny that. I’m not even advocating for porn in general. What I am saying is leave those who like porn alone. They’re watching fantasy. And the people in said fantasy are paid actors. Obviously if a woman (or man) did not give his/her consent and it was filled, that’s disgusting (and criminal). But that’s not what porn is. So why all the outrage??

              I don’t care about porn that is “nasty” to women. It doesn’t bother me. Why? Because SHE SIGNED UP FOR IT AND SHE’S GETTING PAID. I also don’t care about the porn where men are being led around on leashes by women and having their asses smacked until they bleed. In both situations, those are consenting adults being compensated for their work.

              You act like women are the only ones being “used” in porn, but that’s not the case at all.

              And they are for people to jerk off on. That’s the whole friggin point or porn. They’re a temporary escape outlet. Porn doesn’t (or shouldn’t) replace the real thing or take precedence over your boyfriend/girlfriend, but it’s damn useful if one person in the relationship isn’t in the mood.

              The difference between us is I don’t care if you decide not to watch porn. You, however, actively call people like myself out for having the audacity to enjoy it. How about just minding your own business, or at the very least starting a discussion that doesn’t paint all male porn viewers as misogynistic sexual deviants.

              I’m done with you.

            • You know DaddyFiles, there isn’t one grain of truth in your comments that I am calling men “sexual deviants” or “misogynistic”. Infact, I’ve said the exact opposite and each time I’ve said it you’ve knowingly decided to ignore it. I’ve certainly claimed that porn is misogynistic. And you know what? There are men out there that would totally agree with me on that. Calling porn misogynistic isn’t exactly a newsflash and doesn’t exactly take a rocket scientist to figure out.

              Porn isn’t a black and white issue. There are good men that watch porn. But there isn’t one man that watches porn, or doesn’t watch it, that would want his girlfriend, wife, daughter, sister, mother or granddaughter doing porn? Why? Because men recognize the inherent disrespect of the industry toward women. Toward women in the industry and toward how women in general are projected to men through porn.

              You are really just being a bully at this point. We can disagree with one another without making degrading comments calling the other “hopeless” because we don’t fall into line with what the other believes. You also don’t have to agree with me but you don’t get to sit there and make false claims that I’m calling men any kind of names.

              I do not doubt that most able-minded adults know porn isn’t real. That’s never really been the question. But the fact that porn isn’t real doesn’t exactly stop men for ASKING their partners to do things just like those porn girls does it? When does porn become real? When men ask their partners to do the things they say in it? Or is it still “not real” even when partners do things for each other they saw from porn? Porn isn’t real! But it still turns men on doesn’t it? So even in all it’s fakiness, there is still a primal element men respond to that they *want* to be real. Otherwise they wouldn’t respond to it at all if they didn’t want it to be real on some level.

              Yes the women in porn are compensated. Who said they weren’t? What does this have to do with how poorly women are projected in porn? Show me in what part of the definition of “degradement” says that financial compensation negates it. What does this have to do with the millions of girlfriends and wives that didn’t sign up to do porn or were pitted against porn from the men in their lives to “try new things” otherwise they are “prudes”?

              It’s funny to me that your first thought of sensitivity is for the women in porn, the women that yes decided to do it. Oh I won’t get into how many young disenfranchised girls come from awful backrounds go into porn or how many get into the industry and get manipulated into doing things they never would have. That’s not the fantasy part of porn people want to hear about. But you didn’t think about all the wives and girlfriends out there have to do with negative projections of women doing insane crazy things, all the while being called any manner of names (lets be honest, porn isn’t known for it’s respect for women) and being happily submissive and secondary to men. You don’t think about the many boyfriends and husbands that start requesting and acting like things done in porn are normal. You don’t think about the projections of women mostly being submissive play toys that get off on being verbally and physically abused. Yeah, it’s not lost on me how you ignore all those elements of the industry.

              Porn is degrading on two levels. It’s degrading to the women that CHOOSE to be in it for many reasons. Yes, they ultimately choose to be in it. But how many healthy women do you know actually choose to do porn? Not many. Not even Jenna Jaminson who became very famous got into the industry because she was healthy. What does that tell you about the industry right there? And it’s secondly degrading for the projections it upholds about women. If women had an industry equal to porn that treated men like porn treats women, be honest to admit you wouldn’t like it. You wouldn’t like seeing your wife or daughter or mother or whoever get off on seeing men verbally degraded, used for their money, kicked out for the next new guy. Even if these men agreed to be in these movies. These wouldn’t be healthy projections of men would they.

              But if you really think porn is all that healthy then prove me wrong and tell me one thing about porn that showcases women in a positive light?

            • If a guy likes anal sex and he wants to encourage his partner to do it as a way of enhancing the experience for both of them, then that’s okay. Some women like anal sex. Some will tolerate it it once and awhile. Some find it repulsive or painful or degrading. If she really hates it, then he has to decide if it’s a deal breaker or not. If he really cares about her and her enjoyment, and the sex is otherwise good then I think he should be understanding of her limits. And yes women should be willing to compromise to please their partner as well, but I don’t think anyone should be expected to engage in sexual acts that are actually painful or cause emotional trauma. My objection is to guys who have been trained by porn to view sex not as a way of enhancing a relationship and providing mutual gratification, but just as a way of getting themselves off by repeating things they’ve seen in porn.

              I think there has been a reversal in perspective where porn used to be an extension of real life sexual experience, and now real life sexuality is just an
              extension of a porn experience. If a guy has watched 100’s and 100’s of hours of porn before he’s had much if any real experiences, I think it may become difficult to have an accurate view of real sex with real women.

              In my relationship with the boyfriend I mentioned, he said something really interesting once. He said that he had an amazing sensation sometimes during sex that our bodies had merged together and I had become an extension of his body. That really creeped me out as basically he was saying that his ultimate fantasy was to obliterate me as a person.

    • “I try to always pose this situation to men. Think of a polar universe. Where porn is flipped around. It’s not filled with the standard stereotypes we can all make about women in it. Gone are busty young women playing submissively and catering to male sexual desires. Instead this porn is filld with standard stereotypes about men. This porn is filled with the worse and most debasing things a woman could want to use a man for. In this polar universe, porn instead is comprised of attractive, hard bodied men. In this world, it’s your wives and daughters that want to stoop the “teenage” school boy. It’s your wives that want to stoop the male babysitter you and her hired to watch your children. In this porn it’s your wives and girlfriends that get off to men being called all levels and kinds of names that deminish your masculinity. While the men in these movies act like they love it. These men have good looks and are rich. In these movies that women so enjoy, these men are used, not necessarily for just sex (because that’s a male fantasy) but they are used for their money. Women take advantage of them, use their money, use these men for their money, the bigger and more money the man has, the more and better enjoyment a woman gets from using him.”

      This porn exists. We call it Sex in the City.

  2. KnottyKnitPicker says:

    Though I’d fight for anybody’s right to see/purchase/sell “adult” porn (where no-one has been forced against their will to be involved in it), I still can’t help but hold the view that “purchasing porn is for uninventive suckers!” (i.e., the sad, lonely, lover-less and loserly kind of “sucker” {male and female}).

    While there are some pretty amazing places to get female-centered “erotica”—www.babeland.com and http://www.goodvibrations.com—I still find most of it unimaginative and idiotic. Talk about a lame-ass movie/show genre! For me, it’s anti-arousing…just makes me laugh aloud in disbelief! It seems like it’s a naughty version of an SNL skit.

  3. Gregory A. Butler says:

    I suspect that a lot of the women who don’t like porn and strip clubs basically see them as competition.

    Thanks to internet pornography, “gentlemen’s clubs” (and, of course, escort services) straight men have sexual freedom. Those of us in relationships are no longer at the mercy of the limits imposed by a girlfriend or a wife. Those of us who are single aren’t stuck having no sexual outlet at all nor are we forced to hit the bars and hope that some woman likes us enough to let us date them for 3 months before they deign to dole out some sex.

    Instead, thanks to porno, strip clubs and prostitution, we can get heterosexual orgasms on our time and our schedule, based on our fantasy life with no limits imposed by women.

    I can see why a lot of women would be very scared that we might abandon them entirely – they’d no longer be in a position to ration out sex in return for expensive dinners and we’d be free of their erotic tyranny.

    If I was in their Jimmy Choos, I’d hate commercial sex as much as they do.

    However, I’m a man, and that’s why I think it’s awesome!

    I get to be sexual without having to curry favor with a woman – I can express myself erotically on my terms and my time and it is wonderful!

    • Yes Gregory, clearly on some level porn and strip clubs are infact competition. They take time, attention, focus off having a mutually, equal sustaining relationship with a person that’s going to require more effort and compromise. Porn and strip clubs are going to be an infinitely easier way for a man to interact with women because these things don’t require anything of him. Not anything that is deep and intrinsic in a man’s heart. He doesn’t have to give anything of himself, engage anything within himself, share anything of himself, challenge himself like he would if dealing with another human being that had their own set of needs and challenges. Having to deal with the reality of emotions and humaness is far more difficult then living in fantasy world. And sadly, I do think a lot of younger men take this route.

      But you are mistaken if you think these things give men “sexual freedom”. Men aren’t more free because they have more porn now. And we can easily see that in the culture we live in where porn keeps on escalating in content and quantity and addiction. I don’t know any man that is really *proud* of his porn use anyway. Sure they like it, but they aren’t really even that proud of their desire for it.

      There is a perversity in your sentiments though. It’s not lost on me though that you hold some bitterness toward women that don’t “put out” right away. (How dare a woman actually not have sex with you right away.) While you laminate the excellence in using women for sex. The message: “Don’t use me but as a man, it’s okay to use you, women. Don’t expect me to pay for expensive dinners if you ain’t gonna spread your legs. I got me some porn and strip clubs so I win and you women loose.” If you think that’s sexual freedom, you’d be wrong.

      • If you think you get to define someone else’s take on sexual freedom, you’d be wrong.

        Also, was ‘you women loose’ a Freudian slip?

        You seem to be missing the point that he was making. His definition of sexual freedom clearly means freedom from having to rely on women who dangle sexual gratification over mens heads or use it for leverage. Too many women use sex to get what they want, when they want it, or they withhold it as punishment.

        Screw that. With the availability of porn these days, that “weapon” has been removed from the trifling woman arsenal. Men can just search online, grab a towel and rub one out whenever. Because guess what, sometimes “deep and intrinsic” takes a back seat to blowing a load.

        • If I’d had sex with every guy in my life who wanted to have sex with me, I’d have had sex with 100’s of guys by the time I was 30. And I’m not bragging — I consider myself average in attractiveness at best. For a really attractive woman, it would be thousands. So boo hoo if some guy is upset that I want to get to know him awhile before I “put out.” I’m not dangling sex as a reward for spending money on me. The simple fact is, I can’t possibly have sex with every guy who takes me on a date. Why don’t guys get this?

          • Again, I’m pretty sure his meaning is being skewed here. Seems to me he was referring to a need for sexual release and acknowledging that sometimes waiting 3 months to get to know someone isn’t exactly feasible.

            Guys DO get the fact that not all women will give up the goods off the bat. Hence the turn to strip clubs and porn. So, it seems we’ve come full circle.

            • Jee, “you women loose” was an ode to my tenacious pursuit of misspelling.

              I am not missing his point at all. Or yours. There is a perverse bitterness in his posting about women not putting out for him right away, equal to your metion of women “dangling” sexual gratification over men’s heads. As if actually having to spend time getting to know a woman first was wrong or impossible for a man to accomplish. Bullcrap. He’s annoyed because women don’t give him sex the second *he* wants it. When it’s probably a good thing for her to weed out men that just want to use her for sex anyway. But you don’t care about that part of it do you.

              How many men are giving women relationships the second *she* wants it? Again, you don’t care about that aspect of it do you. Because like you said, what you care about sometimes is “blowing a load”. That’s what’s important to you. Not being a better man. Not treating a woman like just something to “blow a load” to. If you “blow your load”, that’s what matters most. So Good luck. There is no shortage of supplies around to help you accomplish that “goal”. But while you sound trumpet horns of “freedom”, it infact sounds like you’re a slave to it. It is amazing but men survived for generations without the abundance of porn they have now. How in the world did they ever manage to do it.

              Turn to all the strip clubs and porn you want. But I know there are good men out there that require more of themselves and more out of life.

            • It is neither perverse nor bitter. It is a statement of fact. His annoyance did not appear to stem from a toddler like tantrum as you seem determined to portray it. If one read the post in an unbiased manner, it would be seen as annoyance with women who judge men for turning to porn for immediate physical relief. Not annoyance with women who won’t put-out on command.

              Your personal experiences are lurking beneath your words. Your bias is colouring your perception. Your opinions rely heavily on generalizations and blanket statements. It was clear to me in the first comment I read. But, I knew that trying to point that out to you, no matter how diplomatically I set about it, would be a waste of time. Instead, I picked a stance and wrote a post with intentional but subtle gender ambiguity.

              In other words, based solely on my perspective and opinions you, quite wrongfully, determined I was a man. My ovaries and I would like to disabuse you of that notion. Not to create controversy or be snide, but to open your eyes to your failure to view the topic in a manner conducive to open discussions. This topic deserves productive dialog. Judgment and generalizations inhibit that process.

            • Of course my personal experiences affect my personal views. As does everyones. This isn’t news. You’re not an unbiased party either Jee. Your own opinion clearly reflect that. And if you ask me, this piece was having a productive dialog. So I’m not too sure what exactly you are complaining about. Please point out what judgements I made? I didn’t say men were “bad” once for liking porn. Infact, I was pretty clear that good men look at porn. I reflected my personal experience with men and porn and it hasn’t been a very positive one. If you are going to count that as a “judgement”, then you aren’t looking for honesty or truth. You’re looking for happy feel good messages that porn is good and everyone that doesn’t say so must be making judgements.

              My opinions are based on what I’ve seen, regularly, in my experience with men. There is no way not to talk about any matter of subjects and not make certain generalizations. Of course there are going to be people that buck the generalization. But if we are forever qualifying statements with “not everyone is like that”, we never got to the heart of the specific problem it addresses for the people that *are* infact like that. There are men that look at porn. Many men that look at porn. And there are social and relational issues that need to be looked at because of this.

              And you are right that I thought you were a man. The manner you were speaking off came off very masculine to me. So what? Just because you’re a woman doesn’t change what I’ve been saying.

    • Strip clubs and porn may be competition for some women – if those women actually value men who engage in those things. I don’t value men who go to strip clubs or who are hard core porn fans, so I don’t consider it competition. For example, I wouldn’t be threatened by your interest in any of those things, because I wouldn’t touch a guy like you with a ten foot pole. It’s all about context and perspective! :)

  4. Tom Matlack says:

    Well I am glad the that Good Discussion got a good discussion going at the very least.

    My observation is that anything to do with sex, talked about honestly, makes people in America crazy.
    There is a reason that the #1 porn state in the country, by a wide margin, is Utah.

    If we can’t talk about it we really can’t do anything about it. And it will get weirder and weirder as people do the things they do in the dark of night and pretend like it isn’t happening at all.

    The most important thing to me about GMP is trying to tell the truth to the best of our ability, about everything, including the stuff that is hard and complex and uncomfortable…which certainly this topic is for just about everyone.

  5. I think the men are right….women are afraid of the competition. Women have used sex as a manipulative tool for centuries second only to their even more powerful tool, guilt.

    The reason I saw this is that the women are ignoring one big elephant, amateur porn! Amateur porn is a huge segment of porn and it is completely realistic. Kind of demolishes the porn is evil because its filled with unrealistic portrayals of sex doesn’t it?

    • Yes, real, amateur people who have sex on camera live in a bubble and are immune to influence from the outside world. There is no way these amateurs are imitating what they’ve seen in porn.
      By the way, how sure are you that the performers in amateur porn are of legal age, or even consented to have their sexual activities broadcast to the world? Not very, I think. Not that you care.

  6. Whenever I see comments like “women in porn are near-anorexic” or that they are “discarded after age 25,” and that “any man can fuck any woman he wants in porn (it’s a well-known fact that women get to choose which male actors they work with, and men do not),” I can’t help but wondering – how much porn have you watched? How much do you really know about the industry? Not much. However, truth be told, porn HAS shaped my expectation of what kind of woman’s body I like (very fit, mainly) and what kind of body I should have (little to no body fat, and with a lot of muscle). Both of these body types are hard to attain for many, and impossible for some. I can’t say that I wish I hadn’t seen it at all, but I DO wish that I hadn’t seen it when I was 15. It shaped my perception of sex too much, and gave me too narrow a window of what is considered physically attractive for both genders.

    But there is a big elephant in the room here: sex education. We know sex education in the US is abysmal, and that’s only in reference to STD risks and such. Anything non-heterosexual is not covered at all, and pornography, abortion, domestic violence, rape (especially rape involving alcohol and drugs), and good partner-to-partner communication about sex aren’t covered, either. Sexual education (and miseducation) starts at a young age. If you don’t want your kids to get dismal sex ed, teach them right (bone up on it if you have to), and lobby the school board HARD for REAL sex ed. If we had good sex ed for young people, this pornography conversation going on right now probably wouldn’t be happening in the first place.

  7. When all women out there yes even the ugliest fat ones expect to get a man who is 10 in attractiveness and financially secure, suggesting to stop watching porn and going to strip clubs is utter non-sense. it’s like saying, wait until some bitch gets horny and you’re in right place, right time then you get to have sex. that may never happen. there is simply not enough women who want to put it out for all men. actually i find 90% of women unfuckable. thanks to strip clubs and porn, we’re finally free. women who thinks they’re better than strippers are just nothing but more expensive strippers. what a wife or girlfriend can give me a stripper can’t? let me tell you what, she can give me misery and financial hardship. 50% divorce rate proves me right. and who knows how many of the other half that are not divorced are happy?

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  1. [...] is despicable. That’s why I have written about it as often as I have. (Here, here, and here.) But to lay the whole issue at men’s feet is gender war talk, and it is disturbing when I am [...]

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