My father was a Quaker pacifist who went to jail to protest war (“My Talk With My Dad”). My son is applying to West Point. Which one is the better man?
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In Paul Elam’s recent piece, “All This Goodness Is Killing Me,” he challenges us at The Good Men Project to come up with any ways that goodness applies to men uniquely:
Please inform us of anything, one single quality, that you think constitutes a part of being a good man – that does not also apply to being a good woman.
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“Goodness” is another one of those words that is so huge that it has different meanings to different people. “Good” is something that applies to human beings before it applies to gender. We are all on the quest to figure out how to be “good” no doubt.
In fact at it’s very founding, a small group of us fought over and over again about the name of our social movement. Our biggest fear is that the title would be viewed as condescending, like “hey look at us we are good and you are not.”
We all were clear that the topic we wanted to talk about was Real Stories from the Front Lines of Modern Manhood, the subtitle to our book, but we needed to put a finer point on it. For a while we some of us liked “More Than a Few Good Men,” as a take-off on the famous Jack Nicholson film in which he shouts at Tom Cruise that he can’t handle the truth.
But in the end we came back to The Good Men Project because it not only was captured the idea of morality and manhood but also the sense of a “Project” which Paul seems to have missed. My co-founder James Houghton pointed out that to those who might criticize us for condescending we could point out that calling this a Project we were making the whole thing into an aspiration rather than a destination. The intent was never to dictate goodness but have a conversation about what it might mean.
That, in a nutshell, is how I backed my way into becoming a lightning rod for the modern masculinity (James has since moved onto other things).
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Before addressing male goodness, I’d like to talk about male badness. In the three years since founding GMP one of the trends that has been most apparent to me is the way in which gender colors our perception of morality not in what people do right but what they do wrong. As I watched the national obsession with the Tiger Woods, Eliot Spitzer, Charlie Sheen debacles after we had founded GMP I became convinced that somehow those stories fit into a box we had collectively established about what manhood is all about. We seem to love to talk about men behaving badly a lot more than we wanted to have a conversation about how men might be good.
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So what does it mean to be a “good” man and why is that even a relevant question? Paul, you are not the first one to ask me that. Generally, when I speak publicly I get asked that question at least once and usually repeatedly. And my response is, “I don’t know what a good man is. You will have to figure that out for yourself.”
I am not trying to be cute with the response. I am just trying to redefine what it is that I mean when I say “good.” I am not talking about some Biblical meaning. The synonyms that come to mind when I think of good in the context of The Good Men Project are authentic, truthful, rewarding, thoughtful.
By this I mean that goodness, in my view, is a self-defined concept. It happens in the context of a group–in the context of a discussion–but it’s something you alone can arrive at. There is no external judgment involved. You have to make up your own mind.
The reason that storytelling is so important to this process, or at least it has been to me, is that by listening to other men tell their stories I have been able to pick and choose those aspects which spoke to my situation. In my experience, the sharing of raw, honest truths of one’s life changes both the teller of that personal narrative and the listener. One man’s transformation can have a ripple effect on others in an inspirational, not judgmental, way.
And a hypothesis, which could very well be wrong but is a basis for what we are doing here, is that in general men respond to stories as the vocabulary of truth and goodness.
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So what is so unique about male goodness compared to human goodness?
Our mission has always been to foster a national discussion about what it means to be a “good father, husband, son, worker and man.” I would argue that being a good father and husband is pretty different than talking about what it means to be a good mother and wife. Yes, being a good parent and good spouse has universal elements, but the challenges faced by dads in a world where stuff like The End of Men is the frame of reference is different than the struggle by women to be good mom’s in a world so heavily influenced by the feminist revolution. Similarly as a husband, whether gay or straight, our role as men are distinct from that of women attempting to figure out how to be a good spouse.
In the end, my path to trying to define and redefine goodness for myself has been tied to my identity as a man. I have made massive mistakes that are characteristically male. And I have sought out advice, counsel and inspiration from men who have done what I did and been where I was, and found a way to a better way of life. In my own case that meant getting sober, being as involved a divorced dad I could be despite unfair divorce laws, ultimately getting remarried, and learning how to love and be loved in an honest and intimate way.
My path was certainly about human transformation but I found it important to lean very heavily on my identity as a man, to lean on other men, to learn from them, to get comfortable with the idea that as a man I am not destined to a script of bad behavior but am capable of something better.
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Which brings us to this idea of “goodness” as some kind of absolute. All too often, it seems to me, that by saying someone is a “good” man what we are conveying is that the man has character, integrity, and is in some way perfect. It’s a myth that is particularly male (I don’t hear it when talking about women the same way). It’s like we want to roll up Clint Eastwood, the Buddha and Jesus Christ all into one neat little package.
To that I say, horse shit.
I believe in the power of personal narrative, in the power of men helping men, in the ability of men even in the most dire situations, having made the most grave mistakes, to transform themselves and become different human beings–men capable of honesty and integrity and success where before they were caught in an endless loop of dishonesty, addiction, even violence.
But even the most inspired, the most enlightened, the most transformed among us are still human, are still mortal, are still men who struggle with day to day life.
My personal definition of being a good man means trying to make more good decisions on a daily basis than bad. It means showing up for my wife and kids even when it’s not easy. It means trying to help someone else out of generosity rather than greed. It means telling the deepest truth I am capable of. And it means forgiving myself when I fail. Because I still fail an awful lot. If I make more good decisions than bad on any given day that is a victory. And I sleep well. But there are still plenty of nights I don’t sleep as well as I would like.
As James said three years ago, being a good man is an aspiration. This is a project not a destination, for us collectively and for each one of us personally.
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I really liked this article. I don’t think there is one definition of a “good man” and anyone who says otherwise is probably trying to sell you something or make you do something you’d be better off avoiding. As for me, I try to care for myself and care for the people close to me. I try to treat everyone else, male and female, with politeness unless they have done something to deserve otherwise. I admire traditionally male virtues like strength, courage, honor and stoicism, but don’t believe in blind chivalry. I can also cook, clean and talk about my… Read more »
My son in law’s daughter from his first marriage has a dibilitating disease that will require medical care the rest of her life. I notice several young Marines in her neighborhood seem to be in that same situation. He has been to Iraq and Afghanistan numerous times to afford the medical coverage and upgrades for the special equiptment needed. His wife became pregnant by another man while he was deployed, moved his child across the states where he can’t readily see her, and makes visits with his daughter as difficult as possible for him to see her even though she… Read more »
Some of the “human” traits that men and women might share are not all that. Consider searching for “little bitty Teresa”, making sure to omit the usual “h”. She gets attaboys for doing what would be all in a day’s work for (some) guys and not worthy of mention. IOW, some things that are mandatory for men, and usually get little attention are optional for women and get lots of attention. It’s practically condescending. OTOH, there’s usually a price, at least potentially, for doing this stuff and society to this point has agreed women should be excused from being expected… Read more »
I do like that there is a “good men project” to fight stereotypes and fully actualize potential as humans. But possibly we should abandon this idea of a “good man” because it denotes built-in stereotypes (much like what it is to be a “good woman”) These phrases conjure up descriptions that have been in place for centuries and no longer apply. I cringe when I think of the pressure my son will grow up with to be a “provider, protector, etc”. All people, men and women, should provide, protect, nurture, love, pursue our dreams, and have the freedom to do… Read more »
“Please inform us of anything, one single quality, that you think constitutes a part of being a good man – that does not also apply to being a good woman.” Being able to actually hear the word no and cease unwelcome attention. Not tarring all women with the same brush. Celebrating the natural beauty of women and assisting when possible the removal of Madison Avenues constant, never ending stream of bullshit that tells every women that in order to get a man, keep a man or change a man she needs to do…(fill in the blank). How about buying your… Read more »
In other words, what differentiates a good man from a good woman is a good man must be utterly servile to women?
Did you leave a Cosmo magazine here?
How about women don’t do as my mother AND sister did which was get young men drunk in order to achieve their planned pregnancies.
Bloody hell. Something of mine actually posted.
Too little too late guys.
“I have made massive mistakes that are characteristically male.”
I appreciate that you have made mistakes Sir, but please do not project your experiences on me. As a man, these are not my characteristics and therefore can not be attributed to masculinity unless these characteristics are a constant for all men throughout culture and history.
I used the pronoun “I” for a reason. I don’t speak for any other man. Just like I don’t speak for you when you think about goodness I sure as hell don’t speak for others when it comes to badness. My point was that as a culture we seem to do that all too often.
When you use a phrase like “characteristically male” to point out bad qualities, you’re by definition implicating being male as being part of those bad qualities. Just because you used the word “I” to begin your sentence doesn’t absolve you from the rest of your sentence.
By the way, I’m a man and I don’t believe that certain mistakes are “characteristically male” anymore than certain mistakes are “characteristically black” or “characteristically those of poor people”.
What phrase would have expressed his meaning better?
The opposite of whatever “mistakes that are characteristically female”.
I believe the most heroic male character ever portrayed in film was the role of Guido Orefice in the movie Life Is Beautiful (Italian: La vita è bella) 1997 Italian film. He used his creativity and spirit to protect and communicate his love for his wife and family. He did everything in his power to protect the innocence of his son. This in my view is a picture of The Good Man.
I do love that film Maureen. Thanks for reminding me of it (also when he ran across the seats to accept his Oscar)…
Maybe there’s a sense in which a Good Man is something you become whereas for women it’s more about who you are. I am not saying that is true just that there’s a feeling about that. That sense also make the word “project” have another meaning namely that being a Good Man is a Project because it is always about Becoming and about Doing. A good woman is essential unto herself. She is. “Because you’re worth it” advertises to women, and “A man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do” to men. I wonder if that whole thing about “men… Read more »
Awesome observation.
That’s certainly the common caricature we hear often David. But we do know that women are knee deep in “doings” from day one and we don’t need to look much further than our own mothers to quantify that feeling. The apparent difference and significance (historically) between the gender “doings” is mostly PR related – even Mother Nature has a hard time getting proper mention next to the IPhone – each of us comes with a built-in app called narcissism.
Hang on. Mothers or women? Mothers CHOOSE to be mothers. Women HAVE a choice. Some folk do not.
Good observation but I (a woman) never really interpreted the title of GMP that way, and certainly not as any type of place of atonement for male guilt as the poster above says. Basically, I interpreted it that being a good man is something that has traditionally been codified by society in certain ways that men probably now feel (given the post-feminist world we live in) that they may longer apply. I’ve often thought that it must be confusing these days to be a man and have any idea what defines manhood uniquely (if anything), and what defines how to… Read more »
The Good Men Project is a 3 step process of 21st century male self-actualization: 1) Acknowledge all past and present transgressions of men towards women specifically and society in general. 2) Recognize and accept the innate feelings of guilt and remorse for these transgressions. 3) Direct the feelings of guilt in a healthy way, toward atonement for these transgressions by becoming a “Good Man”; a more equal co-partner with your wife (or husband if you’re a gay man), by sharing in household responsibities and parenting duties, being more empathetic and understanding towards her (or his) needs, etc. In essence men… Read more »
@keyster – boy, are you off message! P^?
Eventually the elephant in the room has to relieve himself before anyone will notice.
I am only responsible for my own actions so I completely reject your 3 points.
“I believe in the power of personal narrative, in the power of men helping men, in the ability of men even in the most dire situations, having made the most grave mistakes, to transform themselves and become different human beings–men capable of honesty and integrity and success where before they were caught in an endless loop of dishonesty, addiction, even violence.” Perhaps this is where the biggest part of differences of goals lay. I fully support a narrative of men having a place to talk to other men about their life, their path, their mistakes and most importantly the personal… Read more »
Kyle we certainly view personal narrative and issues that impact men as not mutually exclusive. If you have been reading our pages of late you would notice that we have published quite a lot around men as victims of rape including my CNN oped and my interview with the first male to come forward in the Catholic Church scandal here in Boston, which spread across the globe. I guess I would say that we are not about a particular dogma or agenda. But that doesn’t mean we shy away from all the issues you listed. We have dug in and… Read more »
Thanks Tom, and yes I have noticed, and a lot of folks appreciate it. I certainly didn’t mean to come off sounding negative towards GMP’s focus. I think as long as our society keeps churning out damaged men, that makes the work yourself, Lisa and the rest of the GMP crew do much more difficult. I don’t pretend that it is easy to have the skills or the fortitude to reach out to men like you or others do here, but changing minds about laws and governmental processes and injustices has it’s myriad of difficult challenges as well. The first… Read more »
“I am talking about why our government found shelter for women facing homelessness, but forgot about men.” Not to sound careless, but here is what I suspect: I think the numbers are too low for government to build stand alone shelters for abuse men. Unlike men, when women are abused their children often arrive with them to shelters – so there is a greater need for large shelters for women. Women’s shelters cannot house abused men alongside with them, since there is a great distrust of either sex at this point and security issues. I do believe social services locate… Read more »
@ Michelle Not to sound careless, but here is what I suspect: I think the numbers are too low for government to build stand alone shelters for abuse men. Unlike men, when women are abused their children often arrive with them to shelters – so there is a greater need for large shelters for women. What you have said is So “Wrong Headed” it’s frightening! It’s like Brainwashing – It just reinvents reality and does not deal with reality. You didn’t want to sound careless? So you substitute what you think for reality? That is beyond careless! Michelle – studies… Read more »
Please do speak out about the inequalities in quotas, aid to women but not men, the male-bashing, harmful images of men being portrayed in the media AND extol the virtues of our real heroes: all of you men who seek integrity, hard work, compassion that leads to action, exposing truth, a legacy, trying for a balanced life, justice for the misunderstood even when that is you! Don’t be PC! We all need you to stand up for all that is good and right in your worlds and ours. PS: check out Dr Warshaw’s Welcome Back Pluto about hope for alienated… Read more »
I once saw a Dr. Phil show on wives who abuse their husbands. Even without this show, I do know that this does happen to men! Dr. Phil advises some of these women to see a doctor because he suspects they may have a mental illness, like a personality disorder that may behind their aggressiveness and irrationality! Makes a lot of sense! I know of a friend, when she was younger her dad took all of her siblings out of the house, away from their mother and they went to live in a hotel for a short period of time.… Read more »
@michele “What kind of feedback comes back?”. Various Responses. 1) Where are the stats? We are evidence lead! Response: Oh well we are still having to work with police so that they update mandated computer reporting systems so that when they input victim is male on the next screen the box for Domestic Violence Victim is not greyed out and can’t be ticked. Issue of Institutional bias. Oh and asking the government to formally collect stats on DV which include men … and not just rely upon surveys. … and also include in the DV stats and police reporting if… Read more »
That’s a lot of obstacles and challenges to contend with, and I’m sorry men have to deal with that. The issues sound very complex, especially when you throw kids into the picture. Sounds like a lot of resources would be needed to properly address everything. This reminds me of car accidents at intersections or places where traffic lights or signage would be advantageous to implement and prevent future accidents and deaths; at least curb the problem and get it under control. But regional government sometimes lack the foresight or motivation (or even funds?) to do anything until this reaches a… Read more »
“who would say such things about the saintly martyr wife who does so much for so little return from such an ungrateful man? ….and people don’t see how they make sure that food is placed Just Out Of Reach, so he has to ask and then beg and even just go hungry because the abuser comes in and tells him he is not hungry because he has not touched his food – the food that was put on the table but out of reach – and medication too has to be begged for – of how going to the toilet… Read more »
Hey freebird, Lisa and I were very moved by this post, and just tried to send you an email, but the listed email doesn’t work. Do you mind shooting me a quick email? joanna @ goodmenproject.com
Thanks so much!
Hey freebird, I’m happy that I surprise you with my humanity (although I’m sad that it’s a surprise.) Here’s the thing. We love men. We do. We want to hear about your issues. Sometimes we don’t know how to talk about things. Men, women, all of us have our failings. But we know we have to try. The only way change will happen is if people have a way to talk about the issues first. And that’s why we’re here. To see things from the POV of men, first. And to at least try to figure it out together. I… Read more »
Tom/Lisa – What is up with the page refreshes every few minutes? That’s the second time a long comment I’ve written has been cleared because of the auto refreshes this site has in place.
Michelle – I’m not going to retype my entire response. Here is an article(excuse the few typos) that explain the real reason 250,000+ men sleep on the street every night.
http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/feminist-governance-feminism/feminism-and-the-plague-of-male-homelessness/
/sigh – commenting here is so cumbersome, with the refreshes and lost comments. Spend 10 minutes writting a repsonse, have the page auto refresh and delete it.
Michelle – http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/feminist-governance-feminism/feminism-and-the-plague-of-male-homelessness/
Michelle, I am sorry, you are pretty far off base.
http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/feminist-governance-feminism/feminism-and-the-plague-of-male-homelessness/
I think the numbers are too low for government to build stand alone shelters for abuse men. The Australian government has, for decades, interfered in data collection processes to hide victims who don’t fit the feminist paradigm. Government funded services now aggressively reject victims who don’t fit that paradigm. This has nothing to do with “distrust” and everything to do with feminist monopolisation. They demand and get a closed shop. Maintaining the ideology is vastly more important than the welfare of victims or prevention. Our federal government is about to introduce legislation which will enshrine that discrimination in perpetuity. The… Read more »
@ gwallan “By the way in Australia about twenty percent of the homeless are female. The only federal programs for the homeless are for women. Meanwhile a third of the victims of DV are male. Why is it that the numbers are only ever “too low” when they relate to men?” You missed out the children who’s fathers are victims of DV. When you factor in their needs there is a far bigger issue! One thing I have seen is the Life Boat Mythology – “Women And Children First”. It is possible to get people thinking if you just EXPLOIT… Read more »
@MH…
In Australia men are not a part of the family. Our Labor government makes this perfectly clear. Everything is about “women and their children”. Children are merely objects owned or possessed by women. They are things to be exploited.
What? “In Australia men are not a part of the family…..are merely objects owned or possessed by women.” Really? That is so wrong I can’t even imagine it.
Wouldn’t a man be charged with KIDNAPPING if HE showed up somewhere with the kids?
Could it possobly be that men don’t INVOLVE the kids in quarrels, but instead stoically put up with incredible abuse?
My husband’s best friend would come home to find his wife locked in their bedroom with a man she’d picked up in a bar. HE had to go to work everyday while SHE didn’t.
HOW was he going to get out of that situation, get the kids “somewhere”, AND work 8 hours a day?
That was beautiful! I think being a good man is being a good person and always questioning yourself and changing and evolving…..because there are no clear cut answers sometimes….sometimes there is more than one answer…. My husband when he is at his best is when he looks at things from other people’s points of views and gives some validation to those views, even if they are different from his own…he has seen things through his two sisters’ eyes and through his aging mother’s eyes…he is not perfect and he is still trying…He is off for a guy weekend with his… Read more »
Leia I wish I was out snowmobiling with your hubby!
Obviously I am a woman. And as someone who considers herself a good woman, I feel that in furthering myself as a good woman – I must make time to listen to the opposite sex and hear good men out. GMP is a very good place for that. I applaud this “project” and appreciate Tom and Lisa’s remarkable efforts to create and build on goodness, and the generous contributors alike to this site. Take the time to pat yourselves on the back guys! Your work doesn’t go unnoticed. I like that GMP tackles deep subject matters, from a wide range… Read more »
Oh CNN tackles difficult subjects too (they’re mainstream, but I think it’s a very good news site), with special reports and news section devoted to them. Like GMP, CNN is helping people evolve, creating change and bringing more goodness to the world, dealing with tough topics such as slavery, bullying and racism — bringing these issues out of the closet and to the table for discussion and for solutions.
Yes, being a good parent and good spouse has universal elements, but the challenged faced by dad’s in a world where stuff like The End of Men is the frame of reference is different than the struggle by women to be good mom’s in a world so heavily influenced by the feminist revolution.
Okay, how is it different?
Similarly as a husband, whether gay or straight, our role as men are distinct from that of women attempting to figure out how to be a good spouse.
Okay, how so?
Or to be even more specific, let’s just focus on that second one. What would be something about the role of a good spouse that gay and straight men would have in common, but no women at all would share with them? That’s what unique means. If you took out the word unique, you’d probably have a lot less disagreement. Sure, some things are more common among men or women than among the opposite sex. But you (and at least one other author on GMP) are claiming something much more than that something is common. You’re claiming that it is… Read more »
Two men in a marriage both have to accept both their own and someone else’s male ego in the house. A man in a marriage to a woman has to accept some fundamental differences between how he was raised to handle conflict, or emotions, for examples, and how his wife was raised. And this is before you add all of the other identity-related concerns: transgender histories, disability and age, trauma and mental illness, race and nationality, religion, and other differences. Women and men are still different. Some of it is undoubtedly cultural. As long as we still go into different… Read more »
Men and women share the same bathroom in Asia. Have they figured out something we haven’t?
Or where have they gone wrong? Your question presumes thet are right and we are wrong but that is not a given. Not to be rude but as something who has spent extensive time overseas I get tired of all of the attitudes that every other culture and country has so many things right that we have wrong when that is not what I witnessed first hand. There are many things I’ve seen in other cultures that I do think are better than what we generally have but it’s a very mixed bag as I’ve seen more harmful differences than… Read more »
Kirsten in these debates (which often come down to whether or not I am some kind of gender essentialist) it often seems to me that the discussion becomes one of trying to prove a negative. In other words my experience is when I am surrounded by other dads and fathers we share a common experience which is grounded in our maleness. Whether that is how to navigate an ex wife, how to go into a mommy dominated kids’ class, how make our wives happy, how to decide whether its more important to define success by the amount of money we… Read more »
Tom – I find the ongoing questioning of what if The Good Men Project – and what is A Good Man fascinating. It seems so many are afraid and demand that the wild beast be brought under control. I think it’s funny that Paul Ellam says this: And this is where the rubber meets the road; for Tom Matlack; for Lisa Hickey; for all of us. And it is still the crossroads where GMP will more likely opt for a dating column than an honest exploration of the real issue. So TGMP is going to be a dating column? TGMP… Read more »
“I don’t know what a good man is. You will have to figure that out for yourself.” I actually thought that was a brilliant and a terribly honest answer. I think being a good man is a personal man’s journey – each man is going to have a different journey. There is no one size fits all. No one is going to hand you a bible to being a good man…unless of course you believe in the actual bible and its teachings, which many have questioned its usefulness because it’s littered with contradictions. I think the best anyone can do… Read more »
Indeed MH and thank you. Thanks too Michelle. I have often said that I am not God. I really don’t know most stuff including what morality is for anyone other than myself. And even that is a very provisional answer.
This section, your words here, “I believe in the power of personal narrative, in the power of men helping men, in the ability of men even in the most dire situations, having made the most grave mistakes, to transform themselves and become different human beings–men capable of honesty and integrity and success where before they were caught in an endless loop of dishonesty, addiction, even violence. But even the most inspired, the most enlightened, the most transformed among us are still human, are still mortal, are still men who struggle with day to day life.” Is why I respect you,… Read more »
Thank you Julie. Agreed. I sometimes think the most ironic thing in the world is that somehow people want me to define goodness for them. Ask my wife, I have a long way to go not in the big stuff but the minute day to day stuff where I still fall down a lot.
I believe much of a man’s goodness is measured in whether they are committed to mentoring the younger generation. A good man realizes his place in the cycle of maturation and gives his best (not perfect) effort to bring along a boy. When a man guides a boy he truly discovers his manhood and understand his own worth (goodness). I have spoken to numerous men around the world who struggle for peace and contentment on this subject. Most of their discord comes back to failed parenting and lack of mentoring their children. I been moved by stories of men who… Read more »
Amen Matthew. Totally agree. Thanks.
The love of my life, my husband George, revealed to me what is essential to be a good man. We were in conversation about the longings of youth. I asked, ‘But didn’t you want everyone to LIKE you?’ George thought for a minute. ‘No,’he said ‘I wanted everyone to think I had good judgement.’ THIS is the crucial component to goodness in men, as distinct from all persons. If we consider those men which history admires – Jefferson, Lincoln, Gandhi, Mandela – in literature Atticus Finch comes to mind – it is their good judgement that characterizes them. Action comes… Read more »
@Kate
You have some interesting ideas there – especially about literature. I wonder if you wrote a review of some of those books, pointing out the Good Men Attribute of Judgement, if other readers would agree with you?
I love your perspective. Judgment. So important. I see many intelligent, loving, and capable men through away their happiness over one split second of bad judgement. I have debated this issue with friends and family for years, trying to understand why. One thing that I have learned is that the males do not develop the capacity to make responsible judgments until they are in their mid twenties. The male brian does not have this capacity as quickly as a female. In many ways this explains why my teenage boys will do crazy things and act like idiots. I often wonder… Read more »