When Marcus Williams got a massage in Vietnam, he was faced with a hard choice—harder than he expected.
On a cruise several years ago, I arrived to Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam (formerly Saigon) with no organized touring plan. I was friendly with some of the crew and heard from those familiar with this port that the nearby Hotel Rex was a great place to get a massage. I’m a big fan of massages and have had the pleasure (and occasionally pain) of sampling massages all over the world. I don’t indulge my taste for massages near home as much as when I travel, because it can be an expensive habit. The Hotel Rex offered full-body massages for about a tenth of the shipboard rate, so I shuttled into town and found it as soon as guests were allowed to disembark.
I wasn’t the only person to make a beeline for the Hotel Rex, so it didn’t take long for the day’s massage appointments to get fully booked. I was in the first wave of people, though, so I didn’t have long to wait before it was my turn. In the waiting room, I noticed a blurb at the bottom of the price list that said, “Tips are at customer’s discretion. Therapists are not allowed to solicit tips.” Roger that.
A male attendant took me to the men’s changing area and gave me a robe and thin pair of no-fly shorts. After I put on the robe and shorts, I exited the changing area, and an attractive young Vietnamese woman was ready to escort me to the massage room. On the walk to the room, she put her arm through mine, which I took to be a local cultural thing. No big deal.
The room for the massage was small and simple, with plain walls, a small table in one corner with a bottle of oil, and a regular massage table in the center. I took the robe off, left the shorts on, and laid on the table in the customary face-down position for getting massages started. The masseuse dripped some oil onto my backand started kneading and rubbing and palpating like masseuses do. A small towel was draped across my hips—also pretty standard for a massage. As she got to my lower back, she hitched her fingers into my shorts, pulled them down a bit, and massaged my glutes—a.k.a. my ass. I was a little startled when she hopped up onto the table and sat straddled on my legs while she massaged my back and glutes, but I’ve had massages in exotic places before, so I was prepared to just go with the flow. No big deal.
After some relaxing attention to the arms, back, and gluteal region, she dismounted the table and began to work on my legs. As she worked her way up from the bottom of my legs to the top, she hiked up the shorts a bit (giving me an idea of what a thong feels like) and after a minute or so said, “You not really need these,” so I went with the flow and let her pull them off. I’ve been naked for a massage before and recognize the distinction between sensual and sexual, so this development didn’t faze me. No big deal.
I’m used to a masseuse repositioning body parts for easier access or to execute some technique, so I offered no resistance to her molding of me, which included moving my legs slightly apart. The end result wasn’t a full spread eagle, but there was space between the legs all the way up to my crotch as she continued the massage. Feet felt good. Calves felt good. Upper legs felt good. Inner thigh felt—
Hello.
♦◊♦
OK, that little perineal nudge was out of the ordinary, even for an exotic massage. The touch didn’t linger there, but sure enough, those little nudges kept happening. The first time was kind of a shock, the second confirmed that the first time wasn’t an accident, and by the third and beyond (though I’m embarrassed to admit it) I was sort of accepting and happily anticipating those little nudges.
I’d had massages before, all around the world, so some surprises were expected. I had been walked on before, had my limbs yanked until I had to ask a masseuse to stop, been slathered in yogurt from head to toe, and scorched by hot water and rocks. I’d been massaged by both men and women, in a state of undress ranging from modestly clothed to completely nude. Every other time prior to this massage (not counting intimate massages while dating or married), the obvious erogenous zones were diligently avoided by the masseuse.
In a massage context, I have few inhibitions about being touched by a relative stranger, but I nonetheless get embarrassed at the possibility of manifesting an undesired physiological response during the treatment. In other words, the last thing I want to happen is to get a hard-on. I imagine that masseuses are used to it happening, so I’d expect them to maintain a professional calm in the presence of an uninvited erection, but it’s still an embarrassing prospect. This fear was heretofore unrealized, but here I was lying on the table, being slightly pushed and swirled into the soft table through the natural motion of massage, and an attractive young woman was making repeated contact with my inner thighs, perineum, and even the region just slightly north of the perineum. I tried thinking of football, but could only conjure up images of cheerleaders, so that wasn’t working. The deal started to get a little big.
My mind was right there to help, though, kicking in with that theory of how masseuses are used to it happening, so I had nothing to be embarrassed about. Besides, I was still face down, so it wasn’t like I really had much to worry about, so just go with the flow, go with the flow, go with the flow.
“OK, you turn over now.”
Um … OK. This is fine. I’m used to turning over. Both sides always get worked for full-body massages. I’ve got the towel. If she notices any stirrings, so what. No need to be embarrassed. Even if I get embarrassed, she’s a total stranger. I’ll never see her again. No big deal. So she’s pulling up a stool right next to the table. So she’s propping one of her feet on the opposite thigh to get into the next massage position. No big deal. So she’s taking my arm and massaging it a bit, and happens to drop my arm such that my hand is resting on one of her thighs. No big deal. So I’m shivering a bit and she gives one of my nipples a little tweak. No big—
“You want me massage here?” she asked, laying her hand on my crotch and giving a little stroke through towel.
“I … uh … um … wha’s that?”
“I massage you here, make you feel good.”
“Umm … is that included?”
“You pay me money …”
“Well, I … um … you see …” At this point, she removed the towel, giggled at the stiff consequence of her recent touch, and wrapped her hand around it to give it a squeeze.
“You want I massage it? I not on salary, only make money on tips. I like make you feel good.”
Hell yes, I want she massage it. But I couldn’t say that. For all my willingness to go with the flow, this would amount to paying for something I’d never paid for before, and I knew I couldn’t break with that history without feeling lousy about it afterward. Getting my mouth to produce the words necessary to decline was no easy task, but I managed a rather stuttering refusal of her offer:
“Um … thank you … that’s very nice … but … well … I don’t even know you, and … I wasn’t really expecting that … uh … that’s not something I pay for … um … but thanks for asking.”
She wasn’t inclined to take “no” for an answer, and met each stuttering phrase with a look suggesting that the words I was choosing weren’t within her limited English vocabulary. Words that were in her vocabulary, however, included, “It’s OK, I like make you feel good,” and “Why? It no problem, I like it.”
I’d be lying if I said my resolve never wavered and that inviting squeeze was a tempting preview, but except for the fact that I didn’t exactly knock her hand away when she grasped my hard-on, I resisted her overtures and finally got her to accept my “N-n-no.” She finished out the massage with nice platonic attention to my arms, albeit with an expression on her face that suggested she was even more disappointed than I was. Not likely.
♦◊♦
There’s a part of me that wishes I had accepted the “happy ending”—I’m sure you can guess which part—but I don’t regret my choice. I was not disgusted by the offer, even though I hadn’t sought it out. Ultimately, though, I couldn’t shake my concerns that, despite her expressions of eagerness, maybe she didn’t really like offering complete strangers handjobs for money and maybe it wasn’t completely her choice. In theory, I don’t morally object to sex for money, as long as the person selling is completely willing and fairly compensated. In practice, I’ve read a lot more evidence of women being victimized by sex trade than benefitting from it, so in a massage parlor in Vietnam, my theoretical ideal was not met. Even if it had been, though, a handjob (or more) wouldn’t be as inviting if I didn’t feel selected for the privilege.
—Photo nicouze/Flickr
What about a young boss/owner of a small company that is always concerned he has people around him just saying “yes” to everything coz he is the owner/boss? What if the boss used to hunt and expose bosses, religious leaders and Government personal abusing their position of power? What if this boss knows he has turned down potential relationships with employee’s just because he was the boss? What if this boss gets sick of missing out on healthy relationships because all he does is work and he is the damn boss? What if the boss doesn’t want to be the… Read more »
so she gave you a massage but didn’t get paid. good job
Well, there are always two sides to everything, isn’t there? I’ve had top notch ‘clean’ massages (no hanky panky or even offer for a hand job) in Siem Reap, Vientiane, Istanbul and in Sri Lanka, where even the mention of anything extra is scandalous. I have also been offered ‘massage with boom boom’ in those places as well. In these cases, the massage is only a cover for prostitution which might otherwise be illegal. Amazingly, 100% definite offers for ‘special services’ (though not boom boom though I understand such places do exist if you have the right contacts) have been… Read more »
It is great post.T hank you so much.
Did you tip her anyway? Because she doesn’t get paid?
@ Nitro:
stick shaking doesn’t cause STD… go back to school for some more biology classes..!
consider yourself very lucky not to have accepted any extra services as you would have surely gone home with an lifelong std.
It’s amazing how many things can be wrong in just one short comment. There’s the way STD’s are transmitted, how many “lifelong std’s” can be transmitted via hand job, and perhaps most troubling, the assumption that the masseuse was some kind of std-infested [fill in slur for prostitute here].
I don’t regret my decision, but the reasons I declined did not include thinking she was a disgusting human for having offered.
A Full Body massage in Vietnam includes the FULL body. It is expected. All this holier than tho attitude is laughable. It is just a HJ for cying out loud. A massage with a nice ending from a pretty massuesse for a reasonable tip hurts nobody.
Next time get the full treatment, and don’t write an article.
I don’t remember any holy part. No holey part, either. At any rate, I didn’t travel to Vietnam as a sex tourist. It was one stop on a trip that included many countries, and I had the pleasure (and occasional pain) of receiving massages in many of those places. Many were described as “full body” and that’s all they were, in the completely non-sexual sense. If I’d heard a bunch of massage stories about Vietnam, perhaps my expectations would have been different, but to me, it was just another massage in a foreign country, with no reason to expect different… Read more »
The guy said no because he wasn’t comfortable with it, why is his consent irrelevant?
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You realize we’re talking about a handjob here right? Wow. Verdict: Protestant prudes, the lot of you.
I think my work here is done.
Sounds like if it was free you would have gone for it. Payment was a psychological block. Not so sure it was about respecting the woman being in a one down situation where she needs to do sexual acts for money. Doesn’t sound like it was about the woman at all. Not impressed that you are so “ethical.” Was a stimulating story to read though.
~ J
Free would not be asking for money in exchange for a sexual act, so that would have been a different decision. I’ve said as much in previous comments. I’ve also said that my decision was not only “about the woman”. That factored in to the extent prostitution was involved, but my decision was also about myself, and weighing the pleasant touch that tempted me against my usual standards for wanting to engage in a sexual act with someone. This and other comments play to the stereotype that all men want all the time is sex, and real men never turn… Read more »
You’re a laff riot Marcus.
You don’t want her massaging your dick because she has done it to several other men that day, but don’t have a problem with her using those same hands to massage your face.
You are advised to avoid massage completely so you don’t go through all this emotional turmoil.
Marcus, you seem to make a distinction here that, when manipulated by prostitutes in Copacabana, leads to millions of dollars in sex work and uncounted broken hearts every year here in Rio de Janeiro. You seem to believe that there’s a clear-cut distinction between “free sex” and “paid sex”. In my experience, that’s not true at all. In fact, given a slow night here in Rio, many sex workers, when faced with a client like you, will say “Oh, but who said I wanted you to pay…?” This is magic on the male ego. I mean, if a prostitute is… Read more »
I don’t think it’s always clear-cut, as your examples illustrate cases where it isn’t. In the case of this story, it was clear-cut, so I didn’t have to get very nuanced in my reasoning.
I’m quite interested in reading those links you offered. I have issues with Marx, but I do think you did a very good job of clarifying several points. My position on sex work is conflicted, at best, but I don’t think stigmatizing is a good thing at all. I have many friends and colleagues in the sex work and sex image (porn) industry. I listen to them and try to believe that their experience is valid and honest. My issue is more to do with the idea of “industry” and industrializing pleasure. I’m not nearly up to speed enough on… Read more »
Yeah, I’m offended by McDonalds, too and I hear you about the industrialization of pleasure, Julie. Unfortunately, that particular cow got out of the corral centuries ago and has long been eaten by coyotes. Like it or not, pleasure has become very industrialized. I personally don’t see how repressing prostitution will bring us back the good old days, so I come down on the side of the fence that says putting prostitutes and their clients in cages is not a good idea.
I’m glad the Marx stuff was useful to you. Usually, theory freaks people out as it’s tl;dr. 😀
It was. I think theory is important and I think real world stuff is important. It’s good to have a bit of both. I’m just not academically focused enough to wrestle with it as fully as you are doing, but I appreciate seeing it here. I like to witness critical thinking at play. I don’t dismiss the power of feelings though, as those feelings are built by our exposure to culture and morality lessons. Prostitution is a very very fraught topic. It’s something that hits both men and women hard and in very different ways. I know I have a… Read more »
Don’t get me wrong, Julie: I don’t dismiss the power of feelings. I jkust don’t think they are an appropriate base for public policy regarding prostitution.
I’m hoping that we can at least get the prostitute up to the social status of hairdresser or maid before the decade’s out. I think all the current hysteria over trafficking and the lies that are being told about it is going to generate one hell of a backlash.
Basically, TGB, you’re a staunch proponent of patriarchy, male ownership of women’s bodies: Madonna or Whore, ladies, take your pick. Yes, sometimes in certain countries and circumstances that is the only “choice” women have but instead of defending a soul-destroying institution why don’t you work towards changing it–support education and more options for girls and women– instead of propping it up and sustaining it?
“Staunch proponent of the patriarchy”…? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Becca, if you have any good, concrete suggestions for generating, oh, say, 2 million women-friendly, professional-salary-paying jobs in Brazil, hey, I’m all ears. I would LOVE to give people jobs that are not soul-destroying. Unfortunately, that isn’t what’s on the list of possibilities for most of these women right now. Being a maid in this country and making USD 300 a month is easily as soul destroying as being a prostitute and making USD 3000 a month. Then again, what do I know? I’m only repeating what dozens upon dozens of Brazilian prostitutes have… Read more »
Dear Becca,
Two days to go until deadline. I’m really counting on you to get that proposal in.
Dear LF, Sorry for responding here. I think we overran the buffers up there. To me, morality means the basis for ascription of rightness or wrongness to phenomena in the world. “False morality” would be an understanding of such things that would be logically inconsistent with its own premises (such as a so-called Christian who believes in killing one’s ideological enemies en masse). Most morality is based upon a priori premises. In this case, the moral position would be that prostitution is wrong, strito sensu, without any logic to back that up. This is the stance Kant takes and it… Read more »
Well I don’t want this to turn into a semantic argument and lose the point, so first of all, I’ll agree with you that prostitution is not literally “selling one’s body” any more than a factory worker is. Rather, it’s the act of sex itself that is different from other forms of “labor.” I’ve read Engels’ text and, in so many words, I think his views of prostitution and marriage are full of crap, and it disturbs me greatly that feminists have adopted it. What Marx and Engels did was actually the same thing that Ayn Rand later did in… Read more »
OK, thanks for the attempt at an explanation. It seems to boil down to this: “I believe that my emotions are transhuman constants and I believe that sex work would harm my emotions, even though I’ve never tried it myself. Thus, I must conclude that sex work is harmful to all people.” Like I said, it’s pure moralism. First of all, however, I should explain that this isn’t a purely semantic excercise for me, not by a long shot. Not when prohibitionists use phrases like “selling one’s body” as if their content were obvious to everyone and then equating prostitution… Read more »
[Btw, that “bullshit” isn’t directed at you as a person, so please don’t take it that way. It’s directed at the idea that morals needs must rule over logic and concern for human rights when it comes to prostitution. I realize that this isn’t entirely what you’re saying and appologize for the gruffness. It’s almost 4AM here in Rio, I’ve been up all night, translating and TGMPM doesn’t allow one to edit posts once they are sent.]
🙂
Well I am afraid we aren’t going to be able to have any kind of constructive conversation, given that you keep insisting on putting words in my mouth that I didn’t say, thoughts in my head that I don’t think, ignoring everything I say that doesn’t fit your assumptions, and presuming I haven’t studied any anthropology or talked to anyone in other countries just because I draw different conclusions than you do. Probably most pointedly, please show me where I’ve ever said that “morals must rule over logic and concern for human rights.” Where have I said that I want… Read more »
Where I’m not understanding your argument, LF, is when you claim that your emotions give you some sort of basis with which to deal with prostitution, that said emotions are universal human constants and yet you don’t feel that this is a moral position. Any argument based on ineffable a prioris is ultimately a moral argument. It might be based on religion or moral philosophy, but moralist it remains. You’re grounding said moralism in your belief in the healing powers of emotion rather than your belief in some invisible dude in the sky or some set of ethical laws of… Read more »
Good Lord, you are seriously paranoid. First of all, yes you are grossly mistaken about my positions. I would happily support an organization that gives resources such as scholarships to prostitutes, whether or not they left the trade, and I don’t know where you would get the idea that I think otherwise except via your own personal prejudices. Second, I wasn’t aware we were talking about public policy. We’re discussing an article written by a guy who had an offer of a “happy ending” and felt personally conflicted about it. This is about human beings and their ethics and where… Read more »
Not paranoid, LF, just realistic. Look at the reactions I’m getting here: there are people calling me shitty, Becca thinks I’m a grand appologist for Teh Patriarchy, a couple of other folks have flat-out claimed I’m doing this because I must be a john… I’m VERY clear about what the stigmatizing power of prostitution is. Hell, here in Brazil we even have a law against “defending prostitution”. I fully expect to be busted for that some day. So yeah, given that so many people think that only a perverse woman-hater and exploiter could actually try to comprehend prostitution as work,… Read more »
Dear LF,
You might want to take five minutes and read this bit by Laura Agustin, as it pretty well encapsulates this back-and-forth we’re having here:
http://www dot lauraagustin dot com/irresponsible-talk-on-sex-work-gender-equality-sex-tourism-and-state-feminism
Oh, this one by Laura is pretty good, too. I think it directly addresses your belief that the problems we’re dealing with are rooted in male sexuality. I know it’s a pain to be setting up links like this and asking people to read them, but Agustin’s points reflect my views:
http://www dot lauraagustin dot com /the-bad-vibrations-of-anatomical-fundamentalism-world-gender-war
Re: your request for explanation for WHY prostitution IS selling one’s body and NOT simply selling a service. Thaddeus Gregory Blanchette – what you’re missing is your analysis of prostitution is the recognition of power differences between the parties involved. I’ll refer to well-known feminist scholars in this area that you, as a self-proclaimed academic, should have been well aware of. An individual’s sex cannot be separated from their personhood without harm to the self. Take a moment to process that. For more information, avail yourself to Mary Lucille Sullivan’s book, Making Sex Work. A Failed Experiment with Legalized Prostitution,… Read more »
Extra! Berlusconi named in U.S. TIP report!!!
http:// gawker.com/5854622/ berlusconi-named-in-human-trafficking-report
Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha… (gasp)… ahahahahahahahahahahaha.
Oh, my. Good thing governments are cracking down on this “trafficking in persons” thing, neh?
There have been a lot of comments about what tip I left, didn’t leave, or should have left, after declining the happy ending. This happened several years ago, so I don’t honestly remember either the up-front cost or the amount of tip I left, but I’m sure I tipped, and when I’ve been in places where the massages come very cheap, I tip like the lucky first-world traveler that I am, not just 15-20%. Also, I acted according to my conscience, but I wasn’t operating under any illusion that I was somehow saving or helping this woman by refusing. I… Read more »
You should have took it
Your refusal doesn’t free her from her job
and there is no telling if she is even there against her will
Everyone thinks they’re Captain Save-A-Ho
Yes, she is a “ho”? What does that make you? Disgusting.
Here’s my problem with a lot of the posts above, the ones which say “You shouldn’t have sex with a prostitute in the (so-called) third world because you don’t know if she’s a slave or not”. Let me start out by saying that, as an anthropologist, I have been studying sex work in Rio de Janeiro, the western hemisphere’s premier sexual tourism destination for almost a decade now. Most of the women I have interviewed see sex work as a LIBERATORY option when faced with other, “normal”, work which doesn’t pay a survival wage. Our tourism industry is based upon… Read more »
Well, a young woman in the U.S. could earn a lot more money by working as a prostitute than getting a job at the local fast food joint. If she comes from an abusive family, this may seem like the better option, but let’s not pretend its objectively a healthy career choice.
I know a guy who travels to Third World countries a lot and frequently visits brothels. He doesn’t have sex with the women – he pays them their asking price plus a good sized tip and then just sits and talks with her.
Define “healthy career choice”, LF. Who gets to set the limits as to what’s healthy and what’s not? My current career choice has me on several different kinds of blood pressure and sleep medication meds. It also requires me to daily take actions that put my life at risk (i.e. biking from class to class through deadly rush hour traffick). And yet I’m sure that most people would call being a university professor a more “healthy” option than being a prostitute, simply based on their presumptions and prejudices alone. And don’t you think you are just being a slight bit… Read more »
Well that is what I was referring to. You were the one who said that many women in Brazil become prostitutes to escape an abusive family. Given the choice between those two things, I can see why many would prefer prostitution, and I respect their right to make that choice. But let’s be honest – neither choice is good. And obviously, you’re talking out of both sides of your mouth when you claim that, on one hand, abuse isn’t any more of a factor in prostitutes than the general population and then, on the other, cite the high rate of… Read more »
Actually, what I said is that many women become prostitutes to escape abusive situations which may include family but which are more typically work-related. I wasn’t making the claim, as you seem to be doing, that prostitutes have suffered more abuse than women involved in other sorts of work. Of course, if that’s not your claim, then we are on the same page. I’m not “talking out of both sides of my mouth here”. Let me break it down: women, in general, are abused in Brazil. There’s thus some question in my mind as to the causal linkages between abuse… Read more »
Well then let me qualify: I am certainly NOT implying that sex workers are inferior people instead of rational decision makers. I think this is the money statement right here: ‘Almost every pro I’ve ever interviewed wants to get out of the industry, but hardly any of them are willing to work in the conditions and salary levels provided by “straight” employment..’ And that is completely understandable. I know people (mostly men) who come from poor inner city backgrounds and don’t have many choices in terms of education or anything beyond a minimum wage job, so they start dealing drugs.… Read more »
It’s funny that you should mention “REAL options”, LF, because what you really mean are “hypothetical options in an idealized world in which we do not live”. REAL – as in actually occurring” – options for most of the women I deal with means: 1) Marriage to a working class guy and life as a housewife-cum-underemployed temp worker. 2) Living with one’s family and working in the pink-collar ghetto, being paid far less than a subsistence wage. 3) Working as a sex worker. Of the three options, only the third gives some hope for social mobility and climbing the class… Read more »
Wow… so many false presumptions, so much denial, so little time. “By the way, there is no logical way that one can stigmatize a trade but not the people who engage in the trade. What you’re saying sounds to me something like this: “I’m willing to pity prostitutes but I’m not willing to empower them unless they decide to do what I would do in their situatiuon which is to leave sex work”.” Please show me where I ever said I’m not willing to empower them unless they decide to leave sex work. Of course there’s a way to stigmatize… Read more »
LF, this line of yours is very much “hate the sin, not the sinner”, is it not? If you can show me how it isn’t, I’d be much obliged. Likewise, if you can show me concretely how one can stigmatize the job and not the worker, again, that would be very enlightening. So far, you just make these claims and let them hang in the air as rhetorical devices. For the life of me, I can’t see how they could ever be pragmatically implemented. Regarding pyschoanalysis, again, if it comes down to that, I’m not trying to psychoanalyze you, I’ve… Read more »
Also, I can assure you that I have talked to prostitutes and strippers, and have simply come to different conclusions than you have. And I certainly don’t know why in the world you would quote Engels to make your point. He was the epitome of a conflicted sexist. He actually condemned prostitution as “the most tangible exploitation – one directly attacking the physical body – of the proletariat by the bourgeoisie”. But then he used prostitutes regularly himself. And of course the Communist Manifesto with all its claptrap about the “Community of Women” is pure puerile male fantasy in disguise.… Read more »
Really? Where have you talked to them and under what circumstances? For how long? Have you ever talked to them in a situation where they have the power to tell you to shut up and quit bugging them? Why would I quote Engels? Because “The Origin of Family, Private Property and the State” has some very succinct points to make about prostitution – to wit, the prostitute is a worker and the wife a slave. This text has been very fundamental to feminist thought and to liberationist thought, in general. It’s required reading in most Women’s Studies 101 courses. And… Read more »
Let me ask you something before responding to this: what does “morality” mean to you?
Please see my reply on morality below, LF.
I should point out, by the way, LF, that so far, all of your positions on prostitution have been strictly moral and resort, in last analysis, to common prejudice: “No one wants their daughter to grow up to be a prostitute”; “Prostitution is not good”; “No one could ever want to be a prostitute” and other like statements. You have yet to logically explain to me why prostitution isqualitatively different than any other type of work and THAT’S the explanation I’m looking for, from an honest and thinking prohibitionist. I have not yet encountered anyone who could give me such… Read more »
Oh yeah! GREAT point about the tipping.
If a person is working for an agency, the tip is a huge part of their profits. If there is, in fact, some sort of coercion going on, giving a nice tip is a great way of getting power directly into their hands.
Riiiight, because bosses never could just demand to see tips after the client leaves the room. You’re a sh*tty anthropologist, you can’t even think around very easy to conceive and likely scenarios.
I think you mistake your career… it’s not anthropologist… It’s APOLOGIST.
Actually, Ramie, I’ve followed dozens of women along on what we call “programas” here in Brazil and I’ve never – not once – seen a situation in which a boss was waiting right outside the room for a client to finish. Here’s what happens in ALL the cases I’ve seen: the client finishes and the sex worker takes a shower and put themselves back in order. Then the worker leaves. There is PLENTY of time for the worker to sequester tips, if s/he needs to do that sort of thing. In a situation like the one described above by Marcus,… Read more »
Yep.
Yeah, LF. I have to admit that it IS interesting what gets considered to be an “ad hominem” around here these days. If I say, for example, that a certain ex-corporate lawyer has no scientific training in the fields she claims expert knowledge of (sexual and evolutionary biology) and that she consequently misreads and mis-cites many of the scientific papers which she profers up as “proof” of her affirmations, why that’s a horrible ad hominem! Meanwhile, Ramie can call me a “shitty anthropologist” and hell, that’s all just fun and games, part of the normal give and take of informed… Read more »
Hi Marcus,
Very difficult for me to believe this tall tale. Sounds like you are trying to look good for the women who might be reading this “stuff”. You are in Saigon and you do not think that a massage will include a “happy ending”? Nuff Said!
I too was surprised that the writer did not think that a happy ending would be included considering where he was getting his massage. However – to call the writer a liar because he didn’t do what you’d expect a certain population to have done is unnecessary and completely speculative. Were you there in the room?
If your expectations of Vietnamese culture are heavily influenced by having seen Full Metal Jacket and Miss Saigon, then I’m not surprised you won’t believe me, but my experience with massages in faraway places hadn’t led me to expect happy endings. I wasn’t shocked that such a thing was possible, but I hadn’t sought it out or been forewarned, so my surprise was genuine. I never believed the disclaimers in letters to Penthouse Forum, though, so I won’t hold it against you if you don’t believe mine. No big deal.
Your excellent piece brought back to mind an experience I had at a domestic hotel some years back, when the only massage appointment I could get was at 6:30 a.m., and the massage therapist turned out to be a woman. I’d never had that experience before and, I guess, was a bit concerned. She was good, and I felt very relaxed (in part because at that hour I was still half asleep!) but I did become concerned. I absolutely did NOT want to get hard. That never happened, though, as she suddenly began talking about herself…about how her mother thought… Read more »
Thank you, Mervyn. Doesn’t all this remind you of that Seinfeld episode where George was so freaked out because, “It moved!”? I’m sure there are some people who like to chat during a massage, but I’m like you – I like it quiet so I can relax into it without trying to hold up my end of a conversation. There was one other massage in my life – by a pretty female masseuse – when I briefly got an unwanted erection. I don’t know if she noticed or not, but we both had the good manners not to say or… Read more »
I’d think the only way you’d know if she was honestly in control of her services is if you knew she herself owned the massage company. If she’s an employee, you have no way of knowing if there is trafficking or coercion involved. Also, she was disappointed because she didn’t make the money, not because you said no to the handy J. I really doubt “me like” means that she likes that aspect. I could be wrong, I admit it. Maybe she really loves getting men off. I mean, I do, when it’s consensual and all that. But I figure… Read more »
I might add here that even if a woman or man is offering sexual services for profit without direct coercion from another doesn’t necessarily mean it is ethically acceptable to take the offer. People can be “groomed” into believing sexual acts are normal interactions and can even be enjoyed from infancy. They can be conditioned mentally and physically that such things are just done with no legal or ethical question or to believe their self worth is only found in satisfying others sexually or that it is acceptable to used sexually because they have no self worth. An adult who… Read more »
I believe sexual acts are normal interactions and can even be enjoyed. I think I get your point and agree with it, though. If “from infancy” meant by performing sexual acts on children and raising them to think all their only self-worth is through sex, then of course all that is horrible, damnable stuff. Strip away the abuse, though, and I think the ideal is for sex to be considered normal and enjoyable, and not at all a terrible thing to try to teach children. Be very clear, though, that I mean teaching that attitude and respect in non-sexual ways,… Read more »
Agreed – sex is normal and healthy and should be enjoyed. But ridding ourselves of sexual shame doesn’t mean we don’t still desire privacy and intimacy in our sex lives, and sex being normal and healthy doesn’t mean the commodifying of bodies is normal and healthy. I think it’s important to parse these differences.
How does a prostitute commodify his or her body, LF?
Last I looked, prostitutes sell their time and services – just like every other worker on the planet. They do not sell their bodies.
You are in a lot of denial.
You are unable to answer my question, apparently, and are resorting to ad hominems.
I would really, truly like you take your best shot at answering my question, however: how is the sale of sexual services “selling one’s body” when the sale of any other kind of service isn’t?
Actually it isn’t literally “selling one’s body” any more than any kind of service. I would put it in even stronger terms than that, now that I think about it. I did give my best shot at answering it, down-thread.
Right.
It’s service economy work. It’s selling one’s time doing certain services. Said services might be noxious to you and me, but then again, so is cleaning the toilets and mopping up the puke of drunken hotel guests as a maid and no one thinks the maid is a slave simply because she’s doing a shitty job.
Well I’m not one of those saying that I have a problem with prostitution because they might be slaves. If that was the case I have no business typing this on a computer, because there’s a pretty good chance that slave labor was used to make it.
No doubt.
But where do you get this wierd and wholly unfounded notion that sex works to desensitize people? How is it that sex with a prostitute “desensitizes” a person in a way sex with a non-prostitute doesn’t?
I would agree with Julie here and underline the point that people should preferentially employ the services of self-employed sex professionals.
I will also point out, however, Julie, that the current hysteria over sexual trafficking is making it very difficult for self-employed sex workers to make a living. Meanwhile, upscale pimping at clubs and what not is BOOMING.
@ Daddy Files – If you are going to respond to my comment above, please answer my question on how you’d suggest determining the free will of the person selling sexual services. Any further discussion on this subject is simply dancing around the issue.
kppk, I think that such a question can obviously be turned back on you: how do YOU determine the free will of the person who’s selling YOU services, whether these are sexual or not? In the last few years, it has become increasingly obvious that despite “sexual slavery’s” ability to mobalize the emotions and engender (literally) police repression, the vast majority of trafficking victims ARE NOT sex slaves but sim,ply workers. You obviously believe that you can determine who is and is not a slave when you buy services from service providers – if you don’t you’re probably being a… Read more »
1. Err on the side of caution.
2. Trafficking victims are by definition there without their consent. Many came with promises to do other types of work only to find out what the real deal was when they reached their destination.
3. Just because something is done in manufacturing doesn’t mean it is right. Human trafficking for labor is also wrong.
1. Agreed. However, that would mean that most first world tourists I know would have to adopt a much more cautious aprroach to tourism than is currently the case. For example, right now in Rio de Janeiro, our number one trafficking case involves a Guatemalan who was illegaly brought into the country to work as a slave on the remodleing of a building. What was the building going to be? A back-packers’ bed-and-breakfast – in nother words, exactly the sort of place that “hip, conscious” Europeans and Americans would frequent because they think it would be “helping the locals”. 2.… Read more »
@ Daddy Files: you make a pretty big assumption when you write “But when a woman is there by choice…” My question is how will you know for sure whether she is or isn’t there by choice? You don’t know her, or her personal history, or her economic circumstances, or her level of desperation etc. My point is that there are many unknowns. The fact that she smiles and appears to be willing is enough of proof for you of her “free” choice? It seems like a pretty low threshold to me. You also take a stab at SAwomensrightactivist for… Read more »
How do you know a wife at a dinner party is there by choice? When you respect a man’s wife as his wife – and seriously, folks, we do this hundreds of times a week without noticing it – how can you be sure that she’s not enslaved? I mean, unless you know everything about her – her personal and economic history – how can you be sure you’re not inadvertently supporting a violent relationship, simply because she smiles at you? ALL male/female relationships end up incorporating some degree of slavery and violence, in aggregate. If we were to take… Read more »
Holy moly false equivalency.
Why is it a false equivalency, Ramie? It is a solid bit of feminist understanding that “sex work” is not simply restricted to actual sexual labor, but all sorts of engendered labor as well. Slavery, of course, is a problem that arises all across the work world and one of the most traditional, widespread and persistent forms of slavery is the practice of “buying” wives. Hell, I’m looking at the “Gender Across Borders” website right now and their lead story today is about “buying wives” in South Africa: www dot genderacrossborders dot com /2011/10/28 No feminist worth their salt denies… Read more »
Daddy Files probably doesn’t care WHY she was there. As has been stated over and over again on this site, all these man care about is getting off. They taunt women who disagree with them as man-haters and they are too dumb to see that they are the types of men that women have every reason to hate. Yuck—so glad most men aren’t lime the ones in this community.
*LIKE the ones in this community
A discovery, the women who don’t work in massage or prostituion often come from small towns. In small towns, employment prospects are poor and local men “expect” women to provide sex socially without any promise of marriage. . Employ as a masseur in a good city esyptablishment provides financial independence, a shot at education and support for the broader family. And the gangly body parts don’t come loaded with anxiety or guilt in this culture. What is it with Western culture? Some middle eastern cleric went phobic about “unclean” female genitalia 2 millenia ago and the angst stuck.
Funny story and well-written.
You weren’t comfortable with it so you didn’t accept. But the more important thing (at least to me) is that you also didn’t judge. Unlike SAwomensrightactivist a few comments above. I do believe in right and wrong, black and white to a certain extent. But when a woman is there by choice and willingly offering a service and a man willingly accepts said service for fair compensation, there is nothing wrong with that.