Sometimes you need to realize that those really are good signs. You’re awesome, and she wants you!
There are too many times to even bother counting.
- “She was only talking to me because she was bored while she waited for her friends.”
- “The only reason she hooked up with me is because I’m American, and I stand out here in Brazil.”
- “If I didn’t dance well, she wouldn’t be interested in me.”
- “She probably gave me a fake number.”
No matter what evidence was literally IN MY FACE to demonstrate my own natural attractiveness, my mind automatically discounted any hot woman being into me as some fluke. You could have an army of my bros tell me “dude, she’s totally INTO you!” and I would come back with my stock of “yeah, but…”.
As a very shy, very pimply, very nerdy teenager, I had plenty of “reasons” to justify why a girl wouldn’t be into me. That mindset was so ingrained that through my early 20s I even kept a written list of all the girls who had ever demonstrated interest in me. I even came across the list last month as I purged through my old shoeboxes. It’s funny now to think that I needed to carry this list around with me just to remind me that I’m not some repulsive troll.
After a while I began to see that my lack of confidence in my own natural mojo was just pushing women away. Despite whatever initial attraction might be there, thinking that someone is into you because of some fluke of nature just gets old really fast. Even if you don’t say verbalize it, you can’t hide your energy. So I just sabotaged myself, not just in dating, but in relationships. I was my own cockblock.
My story of why they’re probably not really into me got proven to be true, time and time again. But only because I created it. It took several pushed-away girlfriends for me to wake up and realize that, dammit, I’m a good guy with lots of badass things to offer a woman. I’m not perfect and have my share of vices and virtues, but I have a good heart and genuinely want a deep, loving connection with a woman. And like everyone on this planet, I don’t help anyone by playing small. This isn’t about being cocky or being better than someone else. Nor is it about being delusional when someone really isn’t into you. It’s about celebrating the unique awesomeness that you have.
Here are a few things I invite you check out.
- Notice the next time insecure, discounting voice comes up. The point is not to get rid of it, but rather CHANGE YOUR RELATIONSHIP TO IT. It served a purpose at some point, perhaps to spare you from being rejected or not standing out too much. So when it comes up, notice it and remember that you are not the voice, but the one noticing the voice. And that “larger you” is bigger than any single thought. It’s that natural essence that IS your mojo.
- Trust that people ARE into you. How many times have you been totally sweating that hottie at the table next to you yet you let the moment pass by without saying a word? Well, how do you know that the same thing isn’t happening to YOU? Play with the idea that every day, it’s likely that at least 3 people see you and find you attractive. They just might not have the courage to tell you.
- Get rid of any clothes that you don’t feel good in. Use the 80/20 principle and go through your closet and donate any items that don’t make you feel sexygroovyhot. You deserve to feel great about you and who you are. Need some help? Get a stylish friend to help you out. You are each a divine expression of masculine and feminine. Decorate your body temple with clothes and accessories that put you in a positive, sexy vibration.
- Know the true source of your worthiness. This may sound counter-intuitive, but the goodness of who you are does not rely on whether other people like you or not. Shift your sense of self form relying on external approval (which you have NO control) to internal approval (which you have total control).
- Bask in your mojo. I don’t care who you are or what you look like, you’ve got natural mojo. You might do or think things that block it, but the reality is that you have an attractive essence that is unique to you and people want to be around. SO OWN IT. If a guy smiles at you, ENJOY IT. If a girl says she likes you and wants to hang out with you, then BELIEVE HER.
Photo by Nika/Flickr
“Sometimes you need to realize that those really are good signs. You’re awesome, and she wants you!”
That headline under a picture of two women grabbing a man’s ass is unbelievably insensitive.
You act as if when men are groped by women it’s a good thing.
Unbelievable.
“That headline under a picture of two women grabbing a man’s ass is unbelievably insensitive. You act as if when men are groped by women it’s a good thing.” May I remind you that YOUR opinion might not be (or it’s likely not) EVERYBODY’s opinion? For many men, I think, being “groped” by women IS a good thing; many of them would like it happening MORE. 🙂 (please notice I said “many” men; I don’t think I can talk for all of them) I respect your opinion and the issues you can have about the subject matter, but please keep… Read more »
There is a huge difference between being touched by a woman a woman groping a man by grabbing his ass without consent. If this picture instead showed two men grabbing a woman’s ass in a public place it would imply the same thing, that they are touching her without her consent. Do you think *that’s* a good thing, bro? Whether some people enjoy that or not, you should not be encouraging that type of behavior because not only is it incredibly offensive, it’s illegal. If you personally want strange women grabbing your ass, that’s fine dude, but judging by that… Read more »
@Jimmy: “I’ll be busy spending time with women”
You lucky dude. 🙂
@Jimmy: “it sounds like you don’t get a lot of attention from women. That would make you the minority, pal”
Maybe I’m in the low of the genetic pool.
But, reading around, I don’t think I’m in the minority, in regard of getting attention from women. 🙄
Hi Jimmy, I’m the head comment moderator and I just sent you an email to the address listed on your comments. It bounced back immediately. Would you please email me at [email protected]?
Thanks.
Sent. I assume this is in regards to my comments about Valter not receiving much attention from women. I thought that was pretty relevant considering his positive stance on women groping men they don’t know, you know, sexual assault.
No, Jimmy. It’s on another matter. Thanks,
Julie
Some of my thoughts as a young women based on the threads above: 1) If a guy EVER came up to me and said ‘nice tits’ or ‘nice ass’ that would be the END of the conversation. Commenting on my body versus my face ‘you have a beautiful smile’ or ‘I noticed your bright eyes from across the room’ are NOT EVER interchangeable. At it’s worst, it can be seen as aggressively rude (like you want to jump into bed with me—and we haven’t even spoken yet!) and at best, makes you seem like an immature horny teenager. Any MAN… Read more »
“Any MAN that wants to have a chance with me will act like one.” you can define what actions you think are rude but don’t define masculinity for the rest of us against your perception of “rudeness. This is just like men who rate women only by her “hotness”, you don’t like it when we do it to you, doing it back is still sexist. “your entire #2” adults offer conversation to each other and either accept or politely decline. “Reading cues” is stupid and inaccurate, if you don’t want to continue a conversation, YOU end it, you don’t expect… Read more »
Guys, just go on a freakin social website. That’s what they’re for. And keep your mouth shut out in public. Boy these are easy problems. Next one please….
most women would argue a social website is also a “public space” and is thusly also an inappropriate venue to approach.
the only method that does not break any social rules set fourth by most proclaimed feminists and some women is to not approach at all and let them come to you, and if they don’t, they don’t.
I agree, fred, if you’re talking about a social network like Facebook. I think Ace was talking about sites like Plentyoffish and OKCupid – you know, dating sites. AFAIK it’s still OK for men to approach women on those sites.
Back when I used OKCupid, the protocol was for men to talk to the women. It was never, ever (at least in my case) the other way around, so I got used to sending out dozens of “Get to know me” messages and not hearing back at all. But I must admit that’s still easier than being rejected in person.
It’s funny, because in the past 9 months I’ve had an OKCupid profile, I have had 7 people visit my profile. It is completely filled out with pictures and everything, and I have had a grand total of 7 visitors and 0 messages. It’s pretty impressive the different experiences of people just based on gender. Women get thousands of people viewing their profile, and I can’t even get 1 person a month!
I had an ok cupid account for about 2 weeks, I sent 3 messages, 2 ignored me and 1 responded with “I have no idea why you thought it was ok to contact me being male, obviously if I want to talk to you ill contact YOU, thats why these sites exist, so women can browse available men in a safe environment.”
… i deleted my account 2 days later.
OK. I stand corrected. It’s hopeless…that would make it MGTOW time.
But seriously. I see some real problems with relationships in the future. The whole attraction thing may just be a phase humanity is going through. Maybe our future will be like the grays…one gender, no sex, and somebody else’s bitch. At least we’ll have beaten that whole speed of light barrier.
wouldn’t want to relegate all people to that future but it would be quite marvelous to be able to take a pill and turn the “male gase” off for 8 – 12 hours until i got home for the day, or perhaps take one that relegates desire for 2 – 3 hours before going out.
There’s a difference between ineffective flirting and harassment. I genuinely think that most of the people who do harass (unless they’re mentally ill or have a social disorder) know what they’re doing. Just like there’s a difference between a woman who politely declines or acts busy/uninterested and one who is a total bitch about like the woman in fred’s story. I have a few stories of ineffective flirting and harassment from my own life (all of these are true): Ineffective flirting: I was walking to the bus stop with a giant backpack on. I had my earbuds in and was… Read more »
Well I think this was a great breakdown of the difference between awkward flirting and actual harassment.
This is great, but I know plenty of women who would consider many of your “ineffective flirting” things harassment. It’s often hard for a guy to know who he’s dealing with.
That’s why I just don’t do it. I’ve had small talk interpreted as harassment. I guess women can miss cues as well.
exactly, thats the problem with all this bs about “reading cues” the truth is that all of this “reading” of body language and social cues and language tone and choice of words is really just guessing. you my be “pretty sure” your being positively perceived but the idea of only moving forward if you are “sure its mutual” is literally impossible, because all of this “subtle” message crap doesn’t work. this is why human beings developed language, because grunting and winking and subtly shaking are horribly inefficient means of communication, thats why as a child you pant and whine and… Read more »
I think if you took a moment to try to read the cues, you’d be surprised at how well you do. Look at my post and the Mr. Skinny Jeans example. He’s not a harasser, but if he just took a moment to look at me and take in what was going on, he wouldn’t have wasted his time. I take some blame for that, because I didn’t outright say, “I’m not interested, please leave me alone.” I have trouble distinguishing between being forthright and being rude (and don’t want to assume that every guy who talks to me is… Read more »
“I think if you took a moment to try to read the cues, you’d be surprised at how well you do.” I’ve done it, and outlined some of my attempts in the above comments, and for every person in this thread who has said “those are extreme examples, the problem wasn’t you”, I’ve had several times that number of people tell me the exact opposite. What makes them wrong and you right? How is me simply saying “I didn’t cross a line, you just took it wrong” any different from denying privilege? the fact that a “middle ground exists” isn’t… Read more »
For my part, I have always tried to give a polite “no, I’m not interested” kind of response. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. Some guys politely leave me alone, others ramp up the pressure, and a couple times in my life, someone has become belligerent (“Why won’t you go out with me? Are you a snob?) Basically I don’t think the rom-com fantasy of just bumping into Mr./Ms. Right on the bus is very realistic. As I said in my comment below, “cold calling” is probably the worst way to meet people. Probably the majority of women don’t appreciate… Read more »
“and if you agree that “straight up asking is not romantic” where is the middle ground?” When I said that, I thought you meant that as going up to someone in a public arena and asking a woman if she wants to have sex with you or commenting on on a body part, not asking her out on a date or engaging in conversation. Once again, middle ground is not being interested, and all the many things I said above. Not romantic does not equal OMG mace! And don’t take the phrase ‘enthusiastic consent’ too seriously. The word ‘enthusiastic’ is… Read more »
“Not romantic does not equal OMG mace!” It can, thats the point, the problem is risking the worst case scenario (wich happens often) not that “some girls are nice”. Perhaps this is a female privilage thing and thats why its hard for women to understand? “Completely untrue, as I’ve said above. At this point, we’re going in circles.” were going in circles because your telling me about what you “do” when you want to say no politely and im telling you what happend the FEW times I “put myself out there” and did NOT get that reaction. again, your response… Read more »
Alright I’ve been on both sides of this, those I’ve never been a man. I have, though, been both someone who’s been the approacher (and then rejected), and someone who’s rejected an unwanted approacher. And, let me tell you, knowing that in the wrong setting, if your gaydar’s a bit off, you might end up offending some woman by assuming she could be *gasp* gay…well it makes approaching them freaking scary sometimes. Heck, man, I’ve had women get offended at me for offering to buy them a drink in a gay bar! Somehow I was supposed to know they were… Read more »
@HeatherN: “In these comments I’m seeing a lot of guys swear that women are horrible about indicating they aren’t interested, and I’m seeing a lot of women say they always try to remain civil” As statistics go, there will be horrible women and civil women (and eveything in between). Women – like men – come in all shapes and sizes. 😉 If someone is always meeting horrible people, I’d say that: – S/he is noticing only the bad cases (selective attention/memory). – S/he is behaving in a way that attracts bad cases (dysfunctional communication or self-fulfilling prophecies…). Or, s/he is… Read more »
“Giving up altogether isn’t the solution, though. Just gotta make sure you aren’t purposefully offensive or objectifying when you approach a woman…” Why, you can make sure all you want it isn’t purposeful, the line is defined by person approached, if they feel objectified, you loose and they are free to punish you however they see fit. “and realize that most of the time women’ll try to be civil even if they’re going to reject your advances. At least, in my experience women who reject me are mostly civil about it.” and you are sure they weren’t more civil about… Read more »
I was told that at an “art walk” event. Where Im from / used to live there are events that have propped up recently where all the food trucks in the area park at designated lots in the downtown area along streets with art galleries on them. The galleries open up for free and i turns into a kind of street fair / reception type atmosphere, you walk down town, hit a food truck for som interesting food, then pass the street performers and often live music as you enter open art galleries and socialize. WIthin this there are other… Read more »
@fred, re the art event, I see 2 possibilities (maybe a combination of both): (a) she was unreasonable/over-sensitive, (2) she didn’t like your offer because she was at the event to mingle and meet people and she didn’t want to immediately leave the event and go off with you to go have drinks; she felt like you were suddenly “putting the moves on her” so to speak. so, other options would have been to message her after the event using the meetup website and ask if she’d like to meet you and a low stress activity like the farmer’s market… Read more »
thnx, but to keep on topic, my original point was not “why didn’t this approach method work with this one woman” my point was I polite and didn’t get a polite no, i was reprimanded and told I was inappropriate.
I don’t care about increasing “success”, i care about minimizing damage, the 2 are not the same concern.
@fred, unfortunately some people are just rude. I guess I don’t have any advice for that except keep trying. But if you find that you always get a rude response then you have 3 possibilities: (a) all women are rude, (b) for some reason you are only approaching women who are inclined to be rude, or (3) something you are doing is provoking a rude response. You can’t do anything about (a), but (b) and (c) may be under your control.
or d), I can just not hit on women all together, and just not run the risk.
If you’ve been told “women aren’t here to get picked up on” at meetup events, then have you considered maybe you are coming on too strong? Just try to make casual conversation to start with. Act like you are there to have a fun time and meet new people, don’t come across as someone who is looking to get laid or whatever.
“Act like you are there to have a fun time and meet new people, don’t come across as someone who is looking to get laid or whatever.”
Act like you want to just be friends with a person whom your actually attracted to. That’s a text book example of Nice Guy(TM)ism.
And the only time I got that response was on a dating website (the one time I tried one).
Every guy I’ve ever dated I’ve met in a friends first situation. There is a difference between being a guy who is nice, likes the people he is around, is easy to get to know and can relay attraction without pressure and a Nice Guy TM.
Im really not sure what the “difference between nice guys and nice guy TMs” has to do with my previous statement. If you see a woman and your attracted to her and you approach her to be her friend and do not exhibit any signs of attraction or make known that you are attracted to her, your a Nice Guy TM. The idea that there is this “gray zone” where your supposed to be friends first and then figure out how to make your attraction known in a non direct way within a short time, otherwise if you let a… Read more »
@Fred, I’m not saying you should hang around women in a passive, de-sexed kind of way. But you said you were at a meetup event where you were told, “women aren’t here to get picked up on,” that suggests to me that you came on way too strong. It’s possible to be friendly and get to know women and not act like you are hitting on them or overwhelming them with your sexual attraction. . It sounds like maybe you need to work on interpersonal skills. How about a dating coach? A lot of this stuff can be learned.
sry i hit the wrong reply button, the post replying to @sara is above
“or d), I can just not hit on women all together, and just not run the risk.” fred–You really have a one track mind (filled with paranoia). If I still lived in the Bay Area, I’d want to take you out and observe just to get a perspective on what exactly is causing it (I realize you have stories and bad experiences, but it’s gotten to the point where you’re not wanting to live your life). It’s not a bad thing to not want to offend anyone, it just seems like you’re pretty stuck on it and not willing to… Read more »
There is more to life than finding a partner, and “who asks who” is only a portion of that question. Everybody has “bad experiences” I simply mitigate mine by not being the approacher. Plenty of women adopt this position due to the simple fact that offended angry people are dangerous, I don’t see why this position differs when the person saying it is male.
All salespeople know that “cold calling” is the most difficult and most unrewarding form of sales. The success rate is dismal. In most cases, approaching a stranger in a public place and trying to engage them in a conversation is the equivalent of cold calling random phone numbers and hoping you will reach someone who wants to buy life insurance. You are going to have a huge failure rate. You could be the most intuitive, most perceptive guy on the planet and your rate of failure will still be enormous for a whole list of reasons.
solution, stop cold calling.
It could be that it’s just part of the job. And high rate of failure doesn’t mean NO success at all.
The worst that can happen on a cold call is you get hung up on, the worst that can happen in real life is you get decked in the face and then have tales of how poorly you performed strewn about the social circle you approached in. The risks are much MUCH higher within the latter scenario and since “women approach men too”, it makes no sense to try and take ALL the risk ALL the time.
Who are these people who are so cruel to you? This is confusing to me. Why would you hang out with them?
I’ll echo Julie here and say that sounds like the people you’re talking about are particularly cruel.
I have made 13 approaches in my life time that I can distinctly remember. 3 of them have ended in “polite no”s. all were friends, only one of which chose to remain a friend after her decline. out of the remaining 10 that I can recall, 4 have ended in violence, the others ended in very bitter departing comments except for 1. That one burst into laughter for several minutes before inviting other female patrons of the place to join in by approaching them, telling them the story of my “failure” and then proceeding to laugh… …I left the place… Read more »
Sooooo…obviously I can’t see what you are doing when you are talking to women, but I’m having a hard time imagining what sane human being gets violent with another over a flirtation. One of two scenarios come to mind. 1) you are approaching people who are emotionally unstable/cruel and have run into more than the usual average. 2) you are doing something that is odd enough that women are reacting oddly. I would suggest getting a friend that is perhaps not one of the women that seems mean to you (or hire a dating coach) and have them actually give… Read more »
according to my few friends who bring this stuff up and have specifically “dragged me out to see me in action” (since im reprimanded consistently for “not taking initiative”), I have a “knack for meeting seriously messed up women and have allowed it to skew my perspective on women in general”. but in all seriousness, if the “rules” for how to treat people don’t work in all situations then they really aren’t very good rules are they.
@Kaleb: “I know plenty of women who would consider many of your “ineffective flirting” things harassment.”
I think I heard about many women with this attitude:
– if they consider the approaching guy attractive, then it’s flirting;
– if they consider the approaching guy unattractive, then he’s a creep. 🙄
So, oftentimes it’s quite subjective. 😕
Nope. Valter your bias is showing. Sometimes harassment is just harassment, no matter how handsome the person is. We, as women and men, should be able to walk down the street without having our personal space invaded by anyone, man or woman, touching us, taking time out of our days to ask us to do something for them (smile, get our number) for their benefit. Example, personal and true. Yesterday, a handsome guy approached me on the street as I was walking alone with headphones on, and while I won’t go into details, he scared and angered me greatly with… Read more »
“Sometimes harassment is just harassment” Of course. Here I’m talking about “normal” people, not psychos or freaks. Not the extremes. And, oh, bias: I seem to notice yours more and more, lately. Having a bad hair day(week)? 😉 This time, you seem to defend women no-matter-what; you seem to exclude the possibility that SOME women (I never said “all of them”) base their attitude mainly on others’ looks (just like many dudes do – it’s still parity, isn’t it? ). I’m sure YOU don’t do that, but I wasn’t talking about YOU. Can you acknowledge that some people (be them… Read more »
I was ironic, you sound pissed off. 😕
I’m glad you decided to talk about this offsite, since this sounds personal.
“I hope you’ll respond to them.”
Sure I will.
Anyway, I think everybody should try to keep in mind that their own personal stuff/issues can be faraway and different from the world (and people) at large.
But I understand anybody can slip on this. 😉
Valter…no no NO. Looks can be a part of it, but it’s FAR from all of it. To reiterate Julie: context, location, timing, attitude. Looks are maybe 5% of the equation when it comes to seeing someone as a ‘creep’. For me, if there’s anything that gives off red flags (when it comes to flirting), it’s an age difference…although this is different for every woman. A man twice my age or one who looks/acts like he’s in high school flirting with me is far worse than one who doesn’t have abs or a chiseled chin.
“although this is different for every woman”
meaning, you stand the change of being a creep no matter what you do.
And at some point, fred, you need to stop caring what random people think. I’m not saying that I’m there myself, but it’s good advice if you can figure it out and get out of your head. Every time I go out and wear heels and a shirt that shows cleavage, I know that many people think that I’m a slut, trashy, unclassy, up for grabs, etc. Does that mean that I won’t wear my cute heels and tops? It shouldn’t. Same goes (but with different insults) for when I don’t have time to dress nicely (slob, let herself go),… Read more »
even if those random people are women accusing me of misogyny? “not caring what they think” dosen’t make me “just another man who dosen’t listen”?
when you KNOW nobody is coming to your defense, it’s pretty impossible to claim immunity over being “just another dude who dosen’ get it”
Julie:
There should be classes on flirting! I should start one!
I’d sign up for it!
I’m not a prude and I’m not disgusted by sex. I AM disgusted by MEN who yell “nice tits” at me. (If lesbians harassed me on the street, I’d be equally disgusted. But that has never happened.) I don’t believe most of those guys are trying to make me feel good about myself, they are actually trying to upset me and make me uncomfortable, as Aya mentions. Because no sane man would believe that yelling “nice tits” at a random woman will lead to sex, or even a date. Again, we aren’t talking about real flirting or polite compliments, we’re… Read more »
Sorry, that comment is supposed to be a reply to assman, above.
“Because no sane man would believe that yelling “nice tits” at a random woman will lead to sex, or even a date.” True but why shouldn’t it. I would rather live in a culture where it does lead to a date. “I don’t believe most of those guys are trying to make me feel good about myself, they are actually trying to upset me and make me uncomfortable, as Aya mentions.” Some are and some are actually trying to pay you a compliment. Believe it or not men look at women’s breasts a LOT and often we are thinking exactly… Read more »
If you know that women don’t like those kinds of “compliments” and you yell “nice tits” at them anyway, you ARE choosing to upset women and make them uncomfortable and justifying it by telling yourself, “women are too easily offended!” How is that a compliment? Aren’t compliments supposed to make other people feel good? Yet you are intentionally making her feel bad. She will rightly conclude that you are an a*hole. I suspect most of the guys who yell “nice tits” know that it bothers women but they do it anyway because they enjoy aggressively asserting their own sexual feelings… Read more »
I think that one has to remember the corollary to this as well. Don’t assume someone’s into you, just because they talk to you or flirt with you or the like. I tend to do that, and it always ends up setting me up for disappointment. Try to go into things with a fairly blank mind, and don’t hype things up, or you will end up feeling like crap.
“Try to go into things with a fairly blank mind, and don’t hype things up, or you will end up feeling like crap.”
Good call, but much easier said than done–for both men and women. I had a girl friend who would go to this bar every weekend, spend ridiculous amounts of money, and hope that the bartender noticed her. She went on and on about him, and it led to a devastation of both mind and her wallet. It was his job to be nice and flirty, but that doesn’t mean it would ever lead to anything.
Did she ever actually ask him out? Cause that could have shortened the process considerably.
That’s a good point, and I don’t think she ever did. She spent way too much time and money trying to work up the mental (and liquid) courage, but never was able to pull the trigger. It’s amazing how much a fear of rejection affects the stuff we do.
um, not to mention hitting on the bartender, male or female is STRICTLY frowned upon in gender egalitarian circles.
http://captainawkward.com/2011/07/04/blanket-statement-monday-stop-hitting-on-the-waitress/
http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/842438
http://triblocal.com/naperville/community/stories/2010/02/heres-a-tip-guys-dont-hit-on-your-waitresses/
The point that I found the most important was the last bullet about “basking in your own mojo” was talked about the least.
Whether you call it mojo or swagger, we are talking about the confidence that a man shows. The confidence to be who you are and to man up and do the right thing in all situations.
“do the right thing in all situations”
which is totally impossible since right and wrong are 100% relative.
Street harassment as women call it is a privilege and women should recognize it as such. I speak for most men on this blog is saying that when comes to sexual initiation, flirtation we will gladly trade places with you. Also I have to admit many of you feminists piss ME OFF. Feminists condemn men for street harassment. Surely then if feminists think street harassment is such a horrible thing then they would delight in a situation where the roles were reversed. But alas no they think AXE commercials are misogynistic too. All AXE commercials show of course is a… Read more »
Street harassment as women call it is a privilege and women should recognize it as such. No its not the harassment that is a privilege. That’s just wrong. You could argue that the privileged part is how women are afforded the luxury of not being expected to approach men they are interested in. (And just to be clear women are afforded this luxury but it harms women that do want to approach just as men are afforded the luxury of being able to approach harms men that do not want to approach.) I speak for most men on this blog… Read more »
“The problem with Axe commercials is that they are offensive to everyone. They case men as dirty pigs (literally in the case of one ad) that are led by our libidos and cast women as silly nymphs that will get down with any guy that smells a certain way.” Bullshit. Axe commercials essentially show a male fantasy which is literally street harassment as women define it. If men didn’t consider it a privilege why create whole commercials that depict it and how could you sell successfully if men found it offensive. You may find offensive…most men obviously do not. Axe… Read more »
Bullshit. Axe commercials essentially show a male fantasy which is literally street harassment as women define it. If men didn’t consider it a privilege why create whole commercials that depict it and how could you sell successfully if men found it offensive. You may find offensive…most men obviously do not. Axe is extremely successful for good reason. Which is why I say that when it comes to flirtation women get it to the point that it becomes harassment and men get it so rarely that what constitutes a male fantasy is “harassment for women”. If things were more equal for… Read more »
The problem is that I know I don’t want what you just decribed and I wouldn’t want to do what you just described (shouting lewd comments, grinding on some random guy) to another person on this planet. If you want that that’s fine, but I don’t want any part and I do consider myself a feminist interested in egalitarianism but also aware that there are gender differences. And ignoring those gender differences is perhaps leading to favor one gender’s response to a certain situation than another. But I digress, another thread, another day. If some men like you want that,… Read more »
“And what is your definition of being bold? I’d say me pursuing a man by striking up a conversation about whatever seems to interest him or cracking a joke is bold. And I do notice that I would define a man doing that with me as bold as well. To imply that women who are not like what YOU want are not bold is incredibly arrogant to me.” I want you to be as bold as men are. I want you to ask US out. I have never been asked out by a woman EVER even by ones who later… Read more »
The problem with your definition of bold is that it is extremely biased to your sex/personal view. As a woman, I don’t see the world in your way and I’m okay with that as I’m sure you are too. There are gender differences that humans can’t ignore. Is it fair to expect gender generalizations to be uncomplicated accurate depictions of each gender, definitely not but these generalizations (good ones like women tend to be more emotional or whatever) exists for a reason. I am more emotional than my male counterparts I’d say even if American machismo were corrected for in… Read more »
I don’t even want to contemplate what kind of response I would get if I flashed my tits on the street or went up to a guy and told him I wanted to give him a blow job. Being called a crazy whore would probably be the least if it. I’d also like you to imagine how you would feel if a totally ugly, unattractive woman shouted lewd things to you or flashed you her tits the street. You’d probably be disgusted just as women are when strange men yell things at us. We don’t feel attracted, we feel grossed… Read more »
you do realize that men do get cat called yes? Not as often as women, but it happens, and it really dosent matter if the woman is attractive to you or not, because typically if you accept the attention the group of women usually with draw the “invitation” and immediately start calling you a pig or throwing things at you.
… unless you stand there freaked out, unsure how to respond, then they just call you a pussy and use all sorts of gay “insults”.
So it’s pretty annoying, isn’t it? Let’s agree that boorish behavior is unacceptable by either gender.
“Being called a crazy whore would probably be the least if it. I’d also like you to imagine how you would feel if a totally ugly, unattractive woman shouted lewd things to you or flashed you her tits the street. You’d probably be disgusted just as women are when strange men yell things at us.” The two times something like this did happen I felt flattered and was thinking about going up to one of the girls and chatting her up. I didn’t end up doing it. There was also a fat girl who grabbed my ass in a club…I… Read more »
Well of course you would like to be propsitioned by free lovin’ beautiful Polynesian girls. But my point is that being harassed by a random stranger on the street who you feel NO attraction for is nothing like visiting a sexual utopia. Maybe men are just more easily attracted to women than visa versa? I’ve been the object of catcalls many times in my life, and there is not ONE of those guys who I would have had sex with in a million years. It isn’t flattering at all. Maybe I just don’t care that much if a guy thinks… Read more »
I’m with assman. It would be mostly nice being openly desired and even a bit objectified – since our issue is we men (on average) don’t feel desired as much as we’d like. @Sarah Radford: “being harassed by a random stranger on the street who you feel NO attraction for is nothing like visiting a sexual utopia” Well, if I’m not interested in her, I’d be flattered nevertheless, and I’d politely decline. “Thank you lady, but I’m not in the mood today.” – smile – “See ya!”. No drama, no fear, no problemo. @Sarah Radford: “Maybe men are just more… Read more »
@Sarah Radford: “being harassed by a random stranger on the street who you feel NO attraction for is nothing like visiting a sexual utopia” Well, if I’m not interested in her, I’d be flattered nevertheless, and I’d politely decline. “Thank you lady, but I’m not in the mood today.” – smile – “See ya!”. No drama, no fear, no problemo. Until the person you’ve turned down follows you down the street calling you a bitch/fag for not accepting their compliment. It happens. It’s not fun, it is a problemo. @Sarah Radford: “How is that flattering?” Then, please explain why women… Read more »
I’m all for flirting, mind you. Love it. But street catcalling and being followed “just to tell you how pretty you are” isn’t flirting. Flirting is a mutual deal.
Try to believe the women posting here when they tell you that being catcalled, and followed is NOT sexually gratifying to them and in fact makes them feel bad in general. We will try to believe you if you say you want that, but it’s hard to imagine after experiencing it that you’d find it fun.
Also? On some these same posts, all over the GMP I hear from male survivors who have been harassed, groped, followed and even sexually assaulted by women. They didn’t like it at all. Are you saying they should like it? Cause when it isn’t consensual, it’s horrifying.
Julie, the problem with flirting for me as a guy is that at any time I can cross over into the sexual harassment zone. I just don’t have any radar for that. So the few times it happens I just ignore it. Sounds like it could be fun though.
There should be classes on flirting! I should start one!
Well, maybe this is hard for guys to understand but the fact that someone likes my tits really has nothing to do with “me.” Yes, my tits are part of me but if a guy on the street tells me I have nice tits, it’s not like I think “wow someone likes my tits! I’m so special!” Because I know that guy would think the same thing of any female walking by with tits. I’m a mobile pair of tits which have temporarily come into his view. That’s all. It has absolutely nothing to do with who I am. With… Read more »
“Because I know that guy would think the same thing of any female walking by with tits.” In a world that isn’t prudish and anti-sex there is no reason nice tits should be any different than nice smile. Why exactly is nice tits impolite. I hereby declare a new convention. From now on complimenting a dress is incredibly impolite and complimenting tits is polite. I give absolutely no reason for this convention whatsoever. Its arbitrary. Women in this culture are offended by sexualized language, sexual imagery and often sex itself. Feminists are women so they tend to be offended too.… Read more »
Just a thought – maybe women aren’t more assertive or bold towards men they don’t know in public because of the Golden Rule – we treat them the way we’d like to be treated. Another thought: A lot of women may not give a reaction to catcalling because we’ve been taught, and probably many of us believe, that if a man gives you unwanted sexual attention, it’s not a good idea to do or say anything that would encourage him to take it a step further. Another thought: Complimenting my dress is complimenting something I consciously chose for myself that… Read more »
“Because I know that guy would think the same thing of any female walking by with tits. I’m a mobile pair of tits which have temporarily come into his view. That’s all. It has absolutely nothing to do with who I am.”
This.
Most of the time, street ‘harrassment’ feels more like men are more trying to humiliate you than they are actually trying to have sex with you. Are we really going to stop by the side of the street and and have a good consensual fuck? Are you even carrying a condom? Do you understand that I have to get to class/work/a meeting–are you planning on asking me if I have a boyfriend? You’re shouting out things about my body parts and then insulting me when I don’t respond in a positive way. You’re scaring me by grabbing parts of my… Read more »
Yeah, I damn well know the difference between mutual flirting, actual compliments and someone just verbally spray painting me with sexual graffiti as if I was a wall for anyone to write on.
“It has absolutely nothing to do with who I am”
By this logic, your dress has nothing to do with who you are. Your eyes don’t. etc
But its worse. I would argue your intelligence has nothing to do with who you are. Or your education. Your job. Your accomplishments. Even perhaps your successes. If your going to feel objectified by tits … feel free. But to be consistent you should also feel objectified by all of the above because they have nothing to do with who you are either.
You miss the point. If, in our society, a person was sexually equated to their eyes (or their dress, or whatever), to the point where they stop being seen as a person, and started to be seen as a mobile pair of eyes, or a mobile dress, or a mobile education, then your statement would be valid. However, that’s not how our society works. It’s problematic when our society starts equating an entire human with a specific body part (or personality trait, etc)…when a woman is no longer a person, but rather just a pair of breasts. I suppose a… Read more »
Heather is very right, a person is a COMBINATION of many, many traits. And you know, it IS possible to objectify based on things that aren’t even sexual or body related. Remember the article about the nerd girl (I cant’ remember who wrote it) who got a lot of simply male attention because of that and felt it wasn’t genuine? Or knowing someone is only interested because you’re famous or have a lot of money. Back to how cat calling should be ‘flattering.’ I was an ugly ducking and didn’t get ‘hot’ until later in high school. I remember this… Read more »
@Sarah Radford: “Because I know that guy would think the same thing of any female walking by with tits” Well, no pair of tits is created equal. 😉 Having said that, you’re probably right. But the same can be said for any part of you (or anybody else): your smile? Ditto. Your eyes? Your intelligence? Your kindness? Yep. Truth is, although everybody is unique, we are somehow “interchangeable”. Every quality we have, somebody else will have (that’s why people fall in love again and again – thank God). Yet, I don’t think you’re offended when someone appreciate your eyes, or… Read more »
So let’s talk about the meaning assigned to body parts, Valter, because I don’t think you are naive enough to believe all body parts are considered the same. Who compliments each other on their elbows, for example? Eyes have been called the window to the soul, yes? Eyes could be considered a sexual marker, or simply a part of the body that lets others in. Cheekbones? Not so sexual. Lips/mouth? More sexual. Breasts? Yeah, totally sexual. Ass? Sexual. When I am complimented on my tits, ‘Nice tits!” I doubt the message is “and your babies must be so lucky to… Read more »
@Velter, the main issue is how it’s expressed. There is really no occasion where it would be appropriate to compliment a woman who is not your girlfriend about her tits, except maybe if you are mutually engaged in heavy flirting and you have a very good rapport built up (even then, there is a chance she will react negatively). But I guess my point is that men tend to think that women should be flattered that a guy likes their tits, ass or whatever. Like assman was saying, men think “boy I would love it if women yelled ‘nice ass!’… Read more »
yes
Assman – “Street harassment as women call it is a privilege and women should recognize it as such. I speak for most men on this blog is saying that when comes to sexual initiation, flirtation we will gladly trade places with you” I have to admit I read nothing after this. Why? Because I’m angry. Here’s the thing. Have you ever experienced street harassment? It can be terrifying. But even if it’s not terrifying, it’s also an implication that your body is valued way more than any other aspect of you. I’ve always wished I were not conventionally attractive because… Read more »
I would like to remind, to the many afraid of people’s reaction, or the ones expecting bad reactions no-matter-what, the power of self-fulfilling prophecies. 😕
When we strongly believe in something, it becomes very likely we will meet that “something” – or, we won’t notice anything but that “something”. ❗
In simple words, what we believe, we will find. 🙄
It seems like a lot of people here are confusing ignoring with anger, and introversion/shyness/awkwardness/being flustered with angry feminism. fred: This is probably what would happen if we sat side by side on a bus and you actually initiated a conversation. I’d probably have my earbuds in. You’d ask me how I was doing. I’d pause my music and say, “I’m well, how are you?” After you answered, I’d get out my phone and check my texts, hoping that my credit card company or mother didn’t message and that my best friend or crush did. Then I’d go on with… Read more »
“I’d probably have my earbuds in. ” according to most feminist writing on the subject that i’ve seen, earbuds or headphones are a social cue that the women “does not want to be bothered”. As such, if for some reason the planets aligned and I attempted to start a conversation with you as a strange women, I would immediately NOT do so if I noticed you had headphones in. and for the record, the one time I tried the “business card” thing, I had managed to start a conversation in a comic book store with a woman whom i thought… Read more »
Well then you are lucky that you didn’t wind up sticking your junk in crazy, cause sane people don’t act that way. Comic book stores are perfect places to flirt. She had a problem and it wasn’t you.
Where do you live? Because is is the third time I have seen someone talking about strange experiences I don’t understand and find unbelievable. Its like I live in a different world than you. I have been trying to figure out how is this possible. Is The Secret really true. NO. I refuse to believe it. So than what? Do you go after the wrong type of women? Maybe. I think maybe you just live in a really really bad place. All the women have been trained in “Street Harassment” and most are feminists. This might be why you seem… Read more »
First of all, let me say that what that woman did to you was disgusting. About the earbuds. I struggle with this one. It’s a sort of chicken/egg scenario. I almost always have on headphones when I’m walking or using public transportation. I don’t generally like being bothered while I’m wearing them, but I’m not sure if that’s because I’m getting into my music/daydreaming due to wearing them–or if putting them on in the first place is a subconcious protective/avoidance strategy. So you discussed flirting in a comic book shop, and Julie said that it was a good venue. I… Read more »
This post should add some additional insights here.
When Compliments Backfire
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/melanie-curtin/compliments_b_1403488.html
“Woo, a cute girl working in a ‘nerdy’ place!” The guys who flirted with me there made me feel interchangeable with any other attractive girl with a few ‘nerdy’ interests. It wasn’t really a situation where I could just take a guy home and fuck him, and the lack of feeling ‘special’ made me not want to pursue any sort of real relationship with these guys.” Im sure you are underestimating your value to the people who hit on you, but thats another topic. One of my friends is one of the founders of geekfeminism.org. One of the ideas they… Read more »
the area where i live is very much a feminist mecha. It is a college town in the california bay area where the ratio of women to men is almost 70/30 and the population of the area is almost entirely 19 – 25 year old college girls (im only barely 27 and not in school). Most of my more feminist friends I have acquired through the industry of which I work. It is an international industry involving a fair amount of travel and “scene” on a social level but the work itself is incredibly technical and as such has very… Read more »
I’ve seen feminists mentioned a few times in this article and I’ve realized something. The ones that do that horrible stuff you folks are talking about are not here, will probably never come here, and will simply deny the stuff they do. I know its hard but frankly I say to hell with them. Part of the reason I stay around here is because of the precise reason that (most) of the feminists that hang out here don’t act like the stuck up jerks I’ve crossed paths with too many times to count. I’ll say this too. At least Julie… Read more »
If a chick puts makeup on you while you’re sleeping is that sexual assault?
Short answer: depends on where she puts it….
Funny enough, I have one of those “lists” Jeffrey mention. I even gave all the girls nicknames, as well as other identifying information, just to fixate in my mind the entire timeline of events that occurred with that person.
Of course, now I’m in an LTR, and when my girlfriend accidentally found my list she kinda got upset. Thankfully that was a while ago, and now I just keep it hidden like some trinket from the past.
@Zek: Haha. Glad I’m not the only one. 🙂 Kudos on the LTR. Yeah, good idea on keeping that list hidden.
Interesting how the picture shows girls grabbing a guy’s ass. Something that we get our nuts chopped off for doing to women.
*cough* double standard *cough*
You left out…”she was talking to me because she wanted to make her boyfriend jealous”…that’s a good one. Sometimes it even fools the boyfriend.
Yeah I get hooked by that one on occassion..
Good article… but the photo! It’s showing blatant sexual assault!
Aggghhhh! I Am Traumatized. I must go and buy vodka now.
The wise thing is not to jump to immediate conclusions either way. And, remember that there are more than two possibilities: 1) she’s totally hot for your body or 2) she doesn’t want anything to do with you. If you’re too focused on finding out which of these two extremes is happening RIGHT NOW, you’ll miss out on what is really happening in the meantime. Some patience is still useful. Make sure you exist as an independent individual regardless of whether she wants to jump your bones or not. This is a totally scary option, I know, but what about…um…telling… Read more »
from what I’m consistently told by social justice activists, this action is considered “creepy and offensive” at worst, “nagging” at best, unless the person is somebody you already have a friendly relationship with. Women are pretty constant about the message of “I wish I could go anywhere without being hit on by men all the time!”
Good one, Jeffrey! Thank you!
I have my “Nobody wants me!” moments, and they feel awful. It’s that voice inside that, sometimes, takes over you.
It’s important to remind ourselves that, as much as we need and desire, we could be needed and desired.
After all, people around me are human beings, just like me. 🙂
True!
You’re welcome, Valter. Thanks for your comment. Yeah, taking people off pedestals has been one of the biggest awakenings for me.
Dinomax, if you’ve been paying attention, feminists consider pretty much any man’s approach to a strange woman in public to be “street harassment,” whether that is a simple hello, eye contact, chitchat, etc. If you are a man and she is a woman, and you are a stranger, and you are in a public place, she does NOT want to be approached in any way. Therefore I simply ignore women when I’m out in public and pretend as if they don’t exist.
You’re telling me you’ve let militant feminists bottle you up? Are you serious? I approach women on a regular basis, as per my relationship status. I: -make eye contact -make conversation -get contact info -make plans to connect in the future -get over it and move on if she refuses I do not: -approach in an un-gentlemanly way -receive angry looks -observe the young lady respond in disgust -get called a ‘creeper’ -get named in lawsuits I’m sure I’m coming across the occasional zealot, but I make sure my ettiquete is above board, because I am that way with everyone… Read more »
As someone who makes eyecontact and conversation all day with people I don’t know, and who observes people incessently I don’t understand the comments from men who say they get attacked or chastised for making eye contact. I do not see this. Seems to me that your approach, Dinomax, is…..gasp…normal. Like…what most people in the world do (including feminists). Is this the difference between east coast and the south or something?? In Texas pretty much EVERYONE flirts a bit, banters, but backs off if there is a clear “I’m not into this” signal. Sure people might be quiet in an… Read more »
Julie, I used to live in NYC, and without a doubt, if you start talking with someone you don’t know in the city, you are in big trouble. No eye contact allowed, because this is a dis, and if you dis someone, the BEST thing that can happen is a lot of fronting and yelling. No chitchat, because you could be a crazy person or be talking TO a crazy person. You just don’t know. If you’re a man talking to a woman, you are an automatic creeper. I live in a friendly town now, but there are just so… Read more »
Man, I would never live well in NYC.
It’s so off-topic…but I loved NYC, in part because I really loved the anonymity and the way personal space is negotiated. In rush hour I could be standing right up against some total stranger, packed in, for 15 minutes or more…but chances are we wouldn’t say two words to each other. It’s wicked interesting. But then I also had some really lovely conversations with completely random people on the street, which I never saw again.
Aw…now I’m getting all nostalgic.
NYC is like the deepest pit of Hell. I have never been so happy to move out of a place. Dirty, smelly, loud … I hated it all.
Ah man…I could discuss our different opinions on social issues and remain civil…but now you’ve trashed my city! I dunno if we can be friends any more, Bob. 😉 (joking, of course)
“I really loved the anonymity and the way personal space is negotiated.”
Then you should definitely visit Tokyo.
I’ve actually always wanted to travel to Japan…so I’ll keep this in mind.
Honestly, I have found plenty of eye contact is made here in NYC. I generally take a nice walk before I go home down broadway, and I probably make eye contact with at least 30 different women during my 20 block walk. With that said, none of them ever smile at me.
@Collin: Are you wanting them to smile at you? Are you smiling at them? I’m wondering if you’re attached to the outcome of each woman noticing you or smiling you as a way of getting validation.
It takes a lot to actually make me smile. I am just not the smiling type. I’ve been told I have a beautiful smile. Twice I have received notes left on my table/handed to me quickly before they scurry off telling me I have a gorgeous smile. The problem is that it is only a true smile that is very nice to see, and seeing me smile is like seeing an endangered animal. It’s quite a rare siting, and it is usually quite fleeting. I don’t feel the impulse to smile at women on the street, and a plastered-on smile… Read more »
“I just don’t recognize the mean non friendly people mentioned in this thread. Maybe the south is just friendlier in certain ways?” The south is friendlier. And if you go even further down south to places like Brazil they are even friendlier. Toronto where I live is horrible…the financial district especially . Sometimes I stand still because I am thinking about something. In Toronto if I do this people get visibly annoyed. Everyone is in a rush and hurry. Toronto doesn’t just have car traffic, it has traffic on the sidewalks…people are in a big hurry to go everywhere. They… Read more »
Funny you mention regions- here in the Midwest (at least my part of the Midwest), women are always complaining that the men around here are to passive, that they won’t approach the ladies.. I’ve always interpreted this as, “Guys I’m into don’t approach me, so they must be passive”.. I suppose there should be some consideration for a guy’s shyness and insecurities, no? 🙂
Yeah, I mean I’ve always been pretty assertive myself, and lived SouthXSW and then in the NW (which was much harder to break into). NW took more time to get people to warm up.
People flirt a lot down here and flirting without it needing to “go somewhere.” I like it. I wish more people could relax into banter without it being this end all be all thing.
Yes, the South is more conversational. I do like that when I travel down there.. but from what Southerners have told me, sometimes the friendly banter is totally fake, similar to a Los Angeles vibe.. It’s just not like them to be rude like New Yorkers, I gues..
well your the minority among the vocal feminist mass, and since I’m not a woman, I don’t get to dictate if or when they are being “unreasonable”. If the vast majority of feminists and women tell me that “any interaction without prior consent is suspect, and flirting in such context is down right threatening.
as such, I keep to my self
Well, I know loads of feminists and that’s a bit unbelievable to me. This is not how the world works. People interact. Every day. All over every kind of matter. Men, women, everyone. Women aren’t children, men aren’t evil. I don’t recognize this’ “any interaction without prior consent is suspect, and flirting in such context is down right threatening” at all in any area of my life, online or off. Where do you see quotes like that?
Not saying I don’t believe you, just that I don’t see it in my life.
well it’s not very likely to be a position that would “get in the way” of your social interaction being a woman 😉
seeing as how its men who often accused of being threatening by default, not women.
“Where do you see quotes like that?”
literally almost every 5 to 7 comments on feministe.us, feministing.com, shakesvile, and I have often been told is all forms of communication with people in my social circle who consider themselves feminist that I should always remember that “by assuming I am being unthreatening to women because i want to be I am not properly checking my privilege”
I am told this on a quite consistant basis as a “reminder”, despite my stanch efforts to not engage with women I don’t already know in some way
So stop reading those posts. Find new friends. Find women and feminists who can offer more salient advice to you. I know not to touch someone in an elevator. I know not to stand too close. I know not to follow a cute man in the mall and surprise him and ask him for his number. I know how to read a person well enough not to freak them out. That, to me, is the crux of what most feminists talk about. Learn how to read scenarios and context well enough and consider people human enough, to not only think… Read more »
I can read social cues just fine, thats not the point. The point is when things go wrong (law of averages, EVENTUALLY SOMETHING will go wrong) and I claim “I red the situation as best I could, and I really think your response was unwarranted”, the instant response is going to be “of course you think that, your a ” What do I do when a women tells me that, argue with her? tell her she’s wrong? Im a man, I don’t get to make the rules about what is “ok” and what “isn’t” when it comes to gender egalitarianism.… Read more »
Well, given that I don’t know you, haven’t ever seen you interact I can’t speak to much of it. But if anyone that was my friend was telling me that flirting was divisive and evil, or that anything I was doing was being a bigot, I’d find new friends. Men and women flirt. Men and women interact all the time. You have to, for your own sake, find the rightness inside you and believe in it. It’s not evil to flirt or hit on each other. To manipulate other people, yes. Anyway, I don’t believe that men and women navigating… Read more »
“Well, given that I don’t know you, haven’t ever seen you interact I can’t speak to much of it. But if anyone that was my friend was telling me that flirting was divisive and evil, or that anything I was doing was being a bigot, I’d find new friends.”
well I don’t do those things, I dont approach women remember 😉
“You have to, for your own sake, find the rightness inside you and believe in it.”
One could argue that many men who have done this are considered raging misogynists by the majority of feminists.
What rightness inside you could be misogynistic? Example?
to use my Chicago example, from my perspective I read the situation appropriately and got barked at by somebody who must have had something else on their mind, because that response made no sense to me in that context.
I have told this story to others who insist I simply had no business making any comment what so ever to her because she was a stranger and women get hit on constantly and what i did constitutes harassment.
apparently my “inner rightness” to some is blatant harassment
Do you think being friendly is harassment? Harassment looks like, to me, not hearing no, touching someone without their welcoming of it, using sexual language in a non sexual setting, “Hey I’d like to fuck you” on the elevator etc.
If all you did was talk about your crazy week, and she bit your head of that was on her.
“I don’t get to make the rules about what is “ok” and what “isn’t” when it comes to gender egalitarianism. Any time I don’t see eye to eye with the “feminist majority” on any subject at best all ill get is an explanation” Feminists have never and will never speak for all women or even all feminists. So who cares what they think. Its mostly irrelevant what any women says about how she would feel in a situation because women are different. She feels one way and another feels another way. What’s creepy for one is sexy to another. So… Read more »
Here is an article that came out yesterday by a colleague of mine. Might add some perspective to this conversation.
When Compliments Backfire
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/melanie-curtin/compliments_b_1403488.html
ditto on this
And another couple of things- don’t stare at all, let alone in a creepy way; and remember that if you get rejected/ refused, only let the disappointment roll over you for a moment, and then get on with your day. The more you dwell on that one person who rejected you/ refused to connect, the more you’ll shut down, and the less confident you’ll feel about the next opportunity that comes up. I assure you that jadedness is not attractive, so get over it your disappointments quickly.
There is good advice in this article.. There seems to be a lot of shy guys on this site, and that’s fine, but the defeatist comments I’m seeing indicate an unneccesary level of despair. Look, the best advice I’ve heard on this subject (as a converted introvert) is when you are approaching someone to focus on the other person more than yourself. If you approach someone worrying about whether or not you are making a good impression, the other person will notice and it won’t be attractive. It’s not about having a devil-may-care attitude, but seriously, don’t dwell on what… Read more »
I would argue that the advice in this article – and your advice too, Dinomax – is perfectly fine as long as you *KNOW* that your attention is already welcome, like if you’re on a date or something. However, trying to get the attention or talk to a stranger is a fool’s errand, and 99% of the time you’ll find yourself on the opposite side of an angry ignoring in the best case scenario, or a lawsuit or arrest in the worst case. Don’t do it. Stick to paying attention to people that you know already know and like you.
I have to ask- how are you getting the attention of said strangers? How are you approaching them? Most people are reasonable, and will respond to a simple ‘Hello’. Making eye contact, idle chitchat- those things are not hard if you are not overly aggressive.. if things are light, most people are not going to respond agrily unless you’ve instigated something..
“99% of the time you’ll find yourself on the opposite side of an angry ignoring in the best case scenario” The numbers ARE NOT 99%. I have tried this before as an exercise. I went up to 5 women in a mall that I considered beautiful and said them “excuse me, I just have to say you really really beautiful”. For 3 of the 5 it was pretty evident that I had made their day, they were really happy, smiling and said thank you multiple times (1 women who was evidently very stressed out before I met her was especially… Read more »
You know, I bet part of the reason the two women got weirded out was to do with the fact that this isn’t something that happens normally. As I mentioned, as a society in the west we tend to ignore strangers and give people their personal space. So if someone were to come up to me in a mall, or whatever, and pay me a compliment I’d be a bit flustered…doesn’t matter whether it’s a man or a woman who gave me the compliment.
Right. I get flustered too. My least favorite thing to hear if I’m in a store or walking/running is “Smile, you’ll be prettier.” or “It’ can’t be that bad! Smile!” As if my face is a piece of entertainment for the person (usually an older man, but quite as frequently an older grandmother type) viewing it. I understand the person doesn’t mean harm, so I usually ignore it, but I often want to say, “Yes it is that bad right now, here are the things weighing on me, would you like to help me?” and then tell the the things… Read more »
thus the answer is to simply not approach anybdoy
Not at all. Its mostly, why are you approaching. is there a reason beyond, “What I want no matter what she./he might be focused on.” or is it something in common, close proximity, etc…
There is a big difference between being on an elevator and having some one chat you up about the weather, the local news, your hat and someone telling you to smile for them.
no their isn’t in both cases if I were the approachER i have no way of knowing 100% if my approach is scaring them, and the general “feminist friendly” rule about social interactions of any kind, sexual or otherwise, is “if you are unsure if you are causing fear, assume you are and back off” my “motives” don’t matter because they don’t trump “her perception of safety”. … also “chatting somebody up about the weather” is hardly flirting and commenting on a woman’s appearance (i.e. the hat reference) is typically considered “not ok” by most feminist i’ve seen argue this… Read more »
Again, I’d say…what’s the goal? To meet a new friend? Pass the time? Get a number? Practice? All different approaches for different outcomes. If I was in the elevator and some man I didn’t know said, “I really dig your (Hat/boots/hair)” or, “man, my day has been crazy today what about yours?” I would respond pretty favorably to him and we’d likely get into a conversation at least for the duration of the ride. Maybe more if I had a free evening and we clicked. If he said “I just wanted to say I think you are pretty.” I might… Read more »
“Again, I’d say…what’s the goal? To meet a new friend? Pass the time? Get a number? Practice? All different approaches for different outcomes.” Again, I can’t guarantee it will be perceived how I intend it, so what does it matter since it is “not ok” to approach unless your “100% sure”? “man, my day has been crazy today what about yours?” I asked this in an elevator at around 1pm on a sunday in chicago once, her response was “do you creep out every girl you get in an elevator with that casual crap or am I just special?”… she… Read more »
So, I’d say to your friend..what the hell? Making casual conversation in an elevator is not evil, divisive or anything else. If it turns into mutual flirting, what’s wrong with that? I’d LOVE to talk to your friend. I don’t know why anyone would be so rude back. If the woman was creeped out? Or if it was me and I was creeped out? I’d just say..nope, easy day. Wait for the elevator to get to my floor and leave. No reason to be an asshole to you unless you were being an asshole first. Were I to give you… Read more »
“do you creep out every girl you get in an elevator with that casual crap or am I just special?” So she is a bitch. That is not your problem. That’s her bitchy problem. It seems your getting cold bitchy responses from extremely bitchy girls. Its their problem…not yours. “I actually sent this to a feminist friend of mine just now, her response was “men who use casual conversation like that to get close to women they are attracted to are evil and divisive, don’t be one of them” And my response is that your feminist friend is evil and… Read more »
@Assman: “I went up to 5 women in a mall that I considered beautiful and said them”
Brilliant! I take your idea and I will do it sometimes! 🙂
It’s always gonna be random depending on a) context of location b) if that particular woman is having a good day or not. If it were me, out and about focused on me like at the mall or the store or jogging (head-phones and sunglasses), I’d wonder at anyone, male or female who thought it was a good idea to interrupt ME so they could tell me something about THEM. I see handsome men and lovely women all the time on the street or at the store and I would never break into their busy day just to tell them… Read more »
“Now, smiling, commenting kindly on their boots or hair, or talking cute about the weather, that seems fine so long as that person isn’t A) across the room, looks really self involved, focused on what they are doing, B) would be a significant interruption.” I don’t think so. The women who were happy were 1) visibly upset over something…talking on the phone before I met her 2) sunglass hut clerk 3) walking with her friends. I could say all 3 were involved with something and I definitely interrupted them. The women with the weird responses were 1) alone sitting on… Read more »
One never knows I suppose. But I’m very happy for both you and the ladies you made feel good!
This is a great thread, everyone. Enjoying the thoughtful and enthusiastic conversation. From the above comments, my take on it is that the intention behind it matters A LOT. If you are walking up to a woman on the street or the mall, and telling her she is beautiful, what is the intent for doing so? To get her to like you? To get her number? To get her to give you a compliment back “Oh, you are SO sweet!”? if there is an agenda behind your actions, then women will smell that from a mile away. If you give… Read more »
not to be a downer but… its also possible that they simply lied to you, after all, women are socialized to accept such attention but that dosen’t mean they want it.
Lies are much more difficult when your surprised and have very little time to react. Its extremely difficult to fake body language, eye contact and a smile when you get surprised like this. I was looking each of these women in the eye when I said it and their reactions were pretty instantaneous. The other thing is that why be enthusiastic and energetic in your lie. They could have given me a polite smile to brush me off. They didn’t. They looked really happy, gave me multiple thank you’s, big smiles, shining eyes. I know how girls behave when they… Read more »
Yeah, no. Interacting with strange women is a great way for a man to be accused of being a creep (or worse). If a meteor strikes the earth and by some impossible chance a strange woman finds me attractive, that’s a shame for her, because there is no way I am going to interact with her. It’s been made very clear in a multitude of ways that women do not appreciate interacting with men they do not know in public. Their loss, not mine.
so maybe i missed something but, why exactly are you so magically convinced that those women weren’t “just into you”? cus pretty much every single feminist person i’ve ever talked to in life has assured me that the idea that only men approach is a myth perpetuated by slut shaming and that women have sexual desires. So since they DO walk up and talk to men they are interested in (as I am consistently told) and you don’t seem to be one of those men, why are you so sure your getting looks? I’m over 6 feet tall, and black,… Read more »
“They were wondering if I was Schroedinger’s rapist more than likely.”
Well this is a bit off topic…but I know plenty of women (and men) who don’t talk to people sitting next to them on a train, or plane, or in a waiting room or whatever. It’s not out of fear, or anything…it’s just out of respect for someone’s personal space. Our society takes a sort of “let them be,” approach to dealing with strangers.
“I’m pretty sure all of the women strangers i’ve been in a seat next to who have NEVER spoken to me (read as all of them) were not “silently checking me out”, they were wondering if I was Schroedinger’s rapist more than likely.” Or they could just have been going over their grocery lists in their heads. Or thinking about their boyfriends. Or interested, but shy and in an inappropriate place. Or daydreaming. Maybe they’re hoping that knot in their stomach isn’t food poisoning. When a woman is around a man, it’s not just “I want to have sex with… Read more »
Or someone could be not approaching you or not starting a conversation with you because he/she is just an introvert (not the same as shy, BTW) and doesn’t normally think of starting a conversation with a stranger for idle chit chat. As an introvert, I think it’s obnoxious the way some people think that because I’m not receptive to your initiative that I’m insulting you somehow. I don’t owe you a conversation just because you try to start one. I’ve been called “uppity” or “antisocial” for seeing things that way. Too bad. If a stranger strikes up a conversation with… Read more »
@wellokaythen: “How long is this chatter going to last?”
Yeah, I have this fear often, at the beginning of a conversation.
I easily get bored (I think I’m slightly Asperger). When a stranger would start talking to me, I’m much more afraid of being bored than of physical danger. 🙄
“As an introvert, I think it’s obnoxious the way some people think that because I’m not receptive to your initiative that I’m insulting you somehow. I don’t owe you a conversation just because you try to start one.” I talked about this in a comment above to assman. I’ve been accused of being cold and bitchy and I hear a lot that a lot of men assume that when women are distant, it’s because they think the men are harassers, creeps, or rapists. Many women, such as myself, just aren’t good at or don’t enjoy conversations with strangers. The way… Read more »
all of the commenters above this just proved my point, which is that 99 times out of 100 they are NOT that into you, and worse, they more than likely don’t want anything to do with you. i also note that while the posters above claimed that the Schroedinger’s rapist position was “uncommon” probably don’t know what its like to take public transit regularly and 2 or 3 times a week have women take the pepper spray bottles or stun guns out of their purses when you get on the buss or train like I do. every occurrence of this… Read more »
I think the answers are shame and distrust. Once I went camping with three friends, one male and two female. The older women asked the younger if she was interested in me, the younger answered yes, and then the older told me. Even being told straight out, I didn’t get it. Over the course of the weekend, the younger women stopped by my tent, danced in front of me, and talked about getting me drunk. I still didn’t quite get it. To some degree, I didn’t want to. As I’ve mentioned here before, I was raped by a man when… Read more »
I had a similar problem: no amount of contrary evidence could convince me I was worthy of people’s time–I was actually baffled by friends who wanted to hang out with me. At the time, I was recently dumped, in counseling, and not in the greatest of places. With the help of the counselor, I managed to identify the voice, and then work on isolating it. Sounds kind of crazy, but I gave that voice a name (to distance it from my own voice), and began actually telling it to shut up–aloud, often through gritted teeth. Slowly, I had to go… Read more »
Uncool is the coolest. Geek is the new popular. Loser is the new winner.
This may not help, but think about the people you know who are total assholes but who still have friends. If they can find companionship, anybody can.
@ epynephrin: Glad you’re on the journey of learning your own value. Kudos.