Sometimes you need to realize that those really are good signs. You’re awesome, and she wants you!
There are too many times to even bother counting.
- “She was only talking to me because she was bored while she waited for her friends.”
- “The only reason she hooked up with me is because I’m American, and I stand out here in Brazil.”
- “If I didn’t dance well, she wouldn’t be interested in me.”
- “She probably gave me a fake number.”
No matter what evidence was literally IN MY FACE to demonstrate my own natural attractiveness, my mind automatically discounted any hot woman being into me as some fluke. You could have an army of my bros tell me “dude, she’s totally INTO you!” and I would come back with my stock of “yeah, but…”.
As a very shy, very pimply, very nerdy teenager, I had plenty of “reasons” to justify why a girl wouldn’t be into me. That mindset was so ingrained that through my early 20s I even kept a written list of all the girls who had ever demonstrated interest in me. I even came across the list last month as I purged through my old shoeboxes. It’s funny now to think that I needed to carry this list around with me just to remind me that I’m not some repulsive troll.
After a while I began to see that my lack of confidence in my own natural mojo was just pushing women away. Despite whatever initial attraction might be there, thinking that someone is into you because of some fluke of nature just gets old really fast. Even if you don’t say verbalize it, you can’t hide your energy. So I just sabotaged myself, not just in dating, but in relationships. I was my own cockblock.
My story of why they’re probably not really into me got proven to be true, time and time again. But only because I created it. It took several pushed-away girlfriends for me to wake up and realize that, dammit, I’m a good guy with lots of badass things to offer a woman. I’m not perfect and have my share of vices and virtues, but I have a good heart and genuinely want a deep, loving connection with a woman. And like everyone on this planet, I don’t help anyone by playing small. This isn’t about being cocky or being better than someone else. Nor is it about being delusional when someone really isn’t into you. It’s about celebrating the unique awesomeness that you have.
Here are a few things I invite you check out.
- Notice the next time insecure, discounting voice comes up. The point is not to get rid of it, but rather CHANGE YOUR RELATIONSHIP TO IT. It served a purpose at some point, perhaps to spare you from being rejected or not standing out too much. So when it comes up, notice it and remember that you are not the voice, but the one noticing the voice. And that “larger you” is bigger than any single thought. It’s that natural essence that IS your mojo.
- Trust that people ARE into you. How many times have you been totally sweating that hottie at the table next to you yet you let the moment pass by without saying a word? Well, how do you know that the same thing isn’t happening to YOU? Play with the idea that every day, it’s likely that at least 3 people see you and find you attractive. They just might not have the courage to tell you.
- Get rid of any clothes that you don’t feel good in. Use the 80/20 principle and go through your closet and donate any items that don’t make you feel sexygroovyhot. You deserve to feel great about you and who you are. Need some help? Get a stylish friend to help you out. You are each a divine expression of masculine and feminine. Decorate your body temple with clothes and accessories that put you in a positive, sexy vibration.
- Know the true source of your worthiness. This may sound counter-intuitive, but the goodness of who you are does not rely on whether other people like you or not. Shift your sense of self form relying on external approval (which you have NO control) to internal approval (which you have total control).
- Bask in your mojo. I don’t care who you are or what you look like, you’ve got natural mojo. You might do or think things that block it, but the reality is that you have an attractive essence that is unique to you and people want to be around. SO OWN IT. If a guy smiles at you, ENJOY IT. If a girl says she likes you and wants to hang out with you, then BELIEVE HER.
Photo by Nika/Flickr
About Jeffrey Platts
Street harassment as women call it is a privilege and women should recognize it as such. I speak for most men on this blog is saying that when comes to sexual initiation, flirtation we will gladly trade places with you. Also I have to admit many of you feminists piss ME OFF.
Feminists condemn men for street harassment. Surely then if feminists think street harassment is such a horrible thing then they would delight in a situation where the roles were reversed. But alas no they think AXE commercials are misogynistic too. All AXE commercials show of course is a world where women chase men. And guess what….feminists hate AXE commercials. WTF?!?! Seem likes feminists are only committed to one thing and that is making sure men know they are UNDESIREABLE. That is what the crazy comic store bitch successfully did.
Let me ask the men on this blog one thing if you could trade places with women on this, would you. Would you like to go into a club, not have to line up, have women try to grind on you, buy you drinks, chat you up. Would you like to go out on the street and have women shout lewd things at you, approach you and ask for you number, tell you your handsome, flash you their tits or their vagina. That’s street harassment. From my perspective its a fucking dream. Its wonderful. Most men would love that.
If women want to end street harassment it pretty simple. According to feminist women are as horny as men. Well fucking PROVE IT. Initiate with men. Be bold. Make lewd comments. Ask them for sex, blowjobs. Come to us. Will switch roles and you sexually harass us. WE ARE WAITING.
Street harassment as women call it is a privilege and women should recognize it as such.
No its not the harassment that is a privilege. That’s just wrong. You could argue that the privileged part is how women are afforded the luxury of not being expected to approach men they are interested in. (And just to be clear women are afforded this luxury but it harms women that do want to approach just as men are afforded the luxury of being able to approach harms men that do not want to approach.)
I speak for most men on this blog is saying that when comes to sexual initiation, flirtation we will gladly trade places with you. Also I have to admit many of you feminists piss ME OFF.
I wouldn’t. And I’ll explain why in a bit.
Feminists condemn men for street harassment. Surely then if feminists think street harassment is such a horrible thing then they would delight in a situation where the roles were reversed. But alas no they think AXE commercials are misogynistic too. All AXE commercials show of course is a world where women chase men. And guess what….feminists hate AXE commercials. WTF?!?! Seem likes feminists are only committed to one thing and that is making sure men know they are UNDESIREABLE. That is what the crazy comic store bitch successfully did.
I’m close to feeling your anger on this (I’ve never been shut down like you were in that store, but I have expressed romantic feelings to a friend and was answered avoidance and silence for 3 months). The problem with Axe commercials is that they are offensive to everyone. They case men as dirty pigs (literally in the case of one ad) that are led by our libidos and cast women as silly nymphs that will get down with any guy that smells a certain way.
Let me ask the men on this blog one thing if you could trade places with women on this, would you. Would you like to go into a club, not have to line up, have women try to grind on you, buy you drinks, chat you up. Would you like to go out on the street and have women shout lewd things at you, approach you and ask for you number, tell you your handsome, flash you their tits or their vagina. That’s street harassment. From my perspective its a fucking dream. Its wonderful. Most men would love that.
Truthfully no I don’t think I would.
Okay when it comes to flirtation and harassment there is some serious messed up stuff going on. Simply put due to the way sexuality is taught based on gender (and presumption of heterosexuality) women are flirted with by men to the point that it becomes harassment while men are so rarely flirted with by women that it almost never reaches the point of harassment. This is how you get guys saying things like, “I wish were getting catcalled.” and women saying things like, “I wish no one would flirt with me.”
The problem with the current balance of flirtation is that (for the most part) women are getting too much and men aren’t getting enough. Ideally speaking men would not flirt with women to the point that it becomes harassment and women would flirt with men more. Its not about swapping places its about getting everyone to a middle, common, ground.
“The problem with Axe commercials is that they are offensive to everyone. They case men as dirty pigs (literally in the case of one ad) that are led by our libidos and cast women as silly nymphs that will get down with any guy that smells a certain way.”
Bullshit. Axe commercials essentially show a male fantasy which is literally street harassment as women define it. If men didn’t consider it a privilege why create whole commercials that depict it and how could you sell successfully if men found it offensive. You may find offensive…most men obviously do not. Axe is extremely successful for good reason.
“Truthfully no I don’t think I would.”
Then you are not like any man I know.
Bullshit. Axe commercials essentially show a male fantasy which is literally street harassment as women define it. If men didn’t consider it a privilege why create whole commercials that depict it and how could you sell successfully if men found it offensive. You may find offensive…most men obviously do not. Axe is extremely successful for good reason.
Which is why I say that when it comes to flirtation women get it to the point that it becomes harassment and men get it so rarely that what constitutes a male fantasy is “harassment for women”. If things were more equal for both sides you would see more women flirting with guys (and hopefully not becoming harassment) to the point that those ads would be considered harassment.
One of the Axe ads I recall was of a guy at a party and when he went into I think the kitchen a girl at the part followed him and when she got to him she asks if she can touch it. Without waiting for an answer she spins him around, bends him over a counter, and starts running her hands through his hair.
Sure I would be flattered if women flirted with me but damn that. I would not put up with a strange woman (a wife/girlfriend maybe but a strange woman at a party? hell no.) bending me over a counter and running her hands through my hair.
Then you are not like any man I know.
Fair enough but bear in mind I don’t do the club scene and if a woman did that kind of stuff to me in public I’d freeze in fear.
Its almost like there are two dials labeled “Women Flirting With Men” and “Men Flirting With Women”. The MFwW dial is stuck on 11 and WFwM dial is down at like 2. I (and I bet a lot of people) would like to see MFwW brought down a few levels and WFwM brought up a few levels. I got no problem with you wanting WFwM turned up to 11 because you set your own comfort levels.
The problem is that I know I don’t want what you just decribed and I wouldn’t want to do what you just described (shouting lewd comments, grinding on some random guy) to another person on this planet. If you want that that’s fine, but I don’t want any part and I do consider myself a feminist interested in egalitarianism but also aware that there are gender differences. And ignoring those gender differences is perhaps leading to favor one gender’s response to a certain situation than another. But I digress, another thread, another day.
If some men like you want that, whatever, go find a gal that does and do that to her alone. Having men twice my age (or my age) stare at me like a steak or just some potential good f*ck or to say some disgusting thing to me is NOT okay.
And what is your definition of being bold? I’d say me pursuing a man by striking up a conversation about whatever seems to interest him or cracking a joke is bold. And I do notice that I would define a man doing that with me as bold as well. To imply that women who are not like what YOU want are not bold is incredibly arrogant to me.
And Ill say I appreciate when men sneak glances at me. When they do a double take. I like that attention, a polite glance, an acknowledgement that I am afterall young and beautiful. But past that, it makes me uncomfortable and defensive.
To conclude, think of one thing that makes you feel dehumanized and reduced to one characteristic of yourself. That characteristic doesn’t have to be a bad thing. Imagine that you know you have much better qualities that you would rather people acknowledge than that one so forcefully. That is what shouting lewd comments at me feels like. I know I’m beautiful, but for someone to only stare at me as a sexual object rather than a beautiful, sexual being that’s much more than that, it disgusts me. It doesn’t feel like a compliment, it feels like a threatening and aggressive proposal for mindless sex and if some people want that, that is not my place at all to say it is wrong. But I don’t want that, and when it comes to people communicating to me, that should matter.
“And what is your definition of being bold? I’d say me pursuing a man by striking up a conversation about whatever seems to interest him or cracking a joke is bold. And I do notice that I would define a man doing that with me as bold as well. To imply that women who are not like what YOU want are not bold is incredibly arrogant to me.”
I want you to be as bold as men are. I want you to ask US out. I have never been asked out by a woman EVER even by ones who later confessed interest after I asked them out. No woman has said they were attracted to me first. No woman has initiated sex the first time we did it. No woman has been the first to go for a kiss..I want you to take the initiative. I want you to plan the date, pay for the meal, compliment us etc. I want you to figure out the logistics for sex and get us into bed. In other words I WANT YOU TO BE THE MAN. When you have gotten to that stage then I consider you bold enough. Your an egalitarian right….well then don’t call me arrogant for expecting you to do what we have been doing for a very very long time.
You want a world without street harassment. Its easy. You make all the moves and we will sit back and decide who we want.
The problem with your definition of bold is that it is extremely biased to your sex/personal view. As a woman, I don’t see the world in your way and I’m okay with that as I’m sure you are too. There are gender differences that humans can’t ignore. Is it fair to expect gender generalizations to be uncomplicated accurate depictions of each gender, definitely not but these generalizations (good ones like women tend to be more emotional or whatever) exists for a reason. I am more emotional than my male counterparts I’d say even if American machismo were corrected for in comparing me to an average male. I absolutely deplore building things whereas some of my male friends can’t get enough of it. This isn’t to say every male or female is like this and that there should be restrictions or that one sex should be preferred over the other for these inclinations, it just says there are differences that aren’t bad at all.
With that said, I called you arrogant because you claimed the only way to be bold is how you, how men see being bold. There isn’t anything wrong with your view of being bold or you desiring that, what I am quarreling with is that my view, a female view of boldness isn’t being accepted by you JUST because it doesn’t fit within your definition. Just because a female view of boldness isn’t living up to your desires or wants doesn’t make any less acceptable as a legitimate definition of boldness.
A possible explanation to your desires not being met is generational differences. I don’t know how old you are but a female asking a male out at least in my circles is pretty non-earth shattering. I have friends who’ve asked men out before and they entered normal relationships. Some took their men out to eat or bought them clothes and gifts as the men did the same some of the time. It’s not unheard of.
That being said if I don’t want to be cat-called, I shouldn’t need to yield to anyone’s desires. It should just be a common respect as one human being to another to respect my comfort in walking down the street.
I don’t even want to contemplate what kind of response I would get if I flashed my tits on the street or went up to a guy and told him I wanted to give him a blow job. Being called a crazy whore would probably be the least if it. I’d also like you to imagine how you would feel if a totally ugly, unattractive woman shouted lewd things to you or flashed you her tits the street. You’d probably be disgusted just as women are when strange men yell things at us. We don’t feel attracted, we feel grossed out. If it happened all the time to you, I think you would find it annoying at the very least, just as women do.
you do realize that men do get cat called yes? Not as often as women, but it happens, and it really dosent matter if the woman is attractive to you or not, because typically if you accept the attention the group of women usually with draw the “invitation” and immediately start calling you a pig or throwing things at you.
… unless you stand there freaked out, unsure how to respond, then they just call you a pussy and use all sorts of gay “insults”.
So it’s pretty annoying, isn’t it? Let’s agree that boorish behavior is unacceptable by either gender.
“Being called a crazy whore would probably be the least if it. I’d also like you to imagine how you would feel if a totally ugly, unattractive woman shouted lewd things to you or flashed you her tits the street. You’d probably be disgusted just as women are when strange men yell things at us.”
The two times something like this did happen I felt flattered and was thinking about going up to one of the girls and chatting her up. I didn’t end up doing it. There was also a fat girl who grabbed my ass in a club…I was flattered but uninterested.
When European visited Polynesia, Polynesian girls would swim to the ships and come on board. They would do thing like casually remove all their clothing. The sailors DIDN’T complain. They were pretty fricking happy and had a lot of sex. If women were more aggressive you wouldn’t see men harassing…we would be too busy fucking. Gay men live in this reality. What you call boorish is normal among many gay men. We don’t need to go as far as that but Polynesia (orgies, sex parties, multiple partners) would be pretty fricking good.
Well of course you would like to be propsitioned by free lovin’ beautiful Polynesian girls. But my point is that being harassed by a random stranger on the street who you feel NO attraction for is nothing like visiting a sexual utopia. Maybe men are just more easily attracted to women than visa versa? I’ve been the object of catcalls many times in my life, and there is not ONE of those guys who I would have had sex with in a million years. It isn’t flattering at all. Maybe I just don’t care that much if a guy thinks I have nice tits. Guys love tits, so they love my tits, I suppose. It has nothing to do with ME, if you understand what I mean. They just see my tits and blurt out an obnoxious comment. How is that flattering?
I’m with assman. It would be mostly nice being openly desired and even a bit objectified – since our issue is we men (on average) don’t feel desired as much as we’d like.
@Sarah: “being harassed by a random stranger on the street who you feel NO attraction for is nothing like visiting a sexual utopia”
Well, if I’m not interested in her, I’d be flattered nevertheless, and I’d politely decline.
“Thank you lady, but I’m not in the mood today.” – smile – “See ya!”.
No drama, no fear, no problemo.
@Sarah: “Maybe men are just more easily attracted to women than visa versa?”
On average, yes.
As a matter of fact, for men wanting sex, a slight attraction is enough (and sometimes is not even necessary); while for women, there must be several elements present.
Even if women were as much interested in sex as men, they are much more selective.
@Sarah: “How is that flattering?”
Then, please explain why women are so obsessed with clothes and accessories. They have nothing to do with THEM (as you say), yet they love when they are appreciated because of their clothes or such.
And, many women feel flattered when their looks are (politely) appreciated. Maybe not you, but many are.
I think that, for most women, the worst thing is being considered ugly.
PS: And, your tits have to do with YOU, inasmuch your body is part of who you are.
Unless you’re just a brain in a jar.
@Sarah: “being harassed by a random stranger on the street who you feel NO attraction for is nothing like visiting a sexual utopia”
Well, if I’m not interested in her, I’d be flattered nevertheless, and I’d politely decline.
“Thank you lady, but I’m not in the mood today.” – smile – “See ya!”.
No drama, no fear, no problemo.
Until the person you’ve turned down follows you down the street calling you a bitch/fag for not accepting their compliment. It happens. It’s not fun, it is a problemo.
@Sarah: “How is that flattering?”
Then, please explain why women are so obsessed with clothes and accessories. They have nothing to do with THEM (as you say), yet they love when they are appreciated because of their clothes or such.
And, many women feel flattered when their looks are (politely) appreciated. Maybe not you, but many are.
Maybe we like clothes etc for us. If looks are politely appreciate is the key here. Lots of street harassment isn’t polite. It’s men going out of their way to approach women who are minding their own business, interrupting the woman to place their opinion on that woman’s sexual attractiveness at the woman.
What you are going to have to believe is that as much as you’d think you’d like it, we are telling you we don’t. And my guess is that if you spent time even once a week for a full year pushing back people getting in your business when all you wanted was to be left alone, you’d tire of it.
I don’t even see men treating men this way in the gay community here. Its astonishing to me that anyone thinks its ok to just interrupt someone with a sexual comment out of the blue.
Small talk? Different matter. Banter in line at the store? Different matter. Being yelled at, “Hey cunt!” when someone drives down the street…very much not cool.
I’m all for flirting, mind you. Love it. But street catcalling and being followed “just to tell you how pretty you are” isn’t flirting. Flirting is a mutual deal.
Try to believe the women posting here when they tell you that being catcalled, and followed is NOT sexually gratifying to them and in fact makes them feel bad in general. We will try to believe you if you say you want that, but it’s hard to imagine after experiencing it that you’d find it fun.
Also? On some these same posts, all over the GMP I hear from male survivors who have been harassed, groped, followed and even sexually assaulted by women. They didn’t like it at all. Are you saying they should like it? Cause when it isn’t consensual, it’s horrifying.
Julie, the problem with flirting for me as a guy is that at any time I can cross over into the sexual harassment zone. I just don’t have any radar for that. So the few times it happens I just ignore it. Sounds like it could be fun though.
There should be classes on flirting! I should start one!
Well, maybe this is hard for guys to understand but the fact that someone likes my tits really has nothing to do with “me.” Yes, my tits are part of me but if a guy on the street tells me I have nice tits, it’s not like I think “wow someone likes my tits! I’m so special!” Because I know that guy would think the same thing of any female walking by with tits. I’m a mobile pair of tits which have temporarily come into his view. That’s all. It has absolutely nothing to do with who I am.
With regard to clothes, I like it when a man I’m involved with appreciates how I dress or gives me a compliment, but otherwise what men think of my attire really doesn’t concern me. I’ve been hit on and had rude remarks yelled at me at various times when I was wearing sweats and no makeup, so how I dress seems to have very little to do with it.
Also, there is a big difference, as Julie points out, between consensual flirting and harassment. There is a big difference between a polite compliment and a guy yelling “nice tits!”
“Because I know that guy would think the same thing of any female walking by with tits.”
In a world that isn’t prudish and anti-sex there is no reason nice tits should be any different than nice smile. Why exactly is nice tits impolite. I hereby declare a new convention. From now on complimenting a dress is incredibly impolite and complimenting tits is polite. I give absolutely no reason for this convention whatsoever. Its arbitrary.
Women in this culture are offended by sexualized language, sexual imagery and often sex itself. Feminists are women so they tend to be offended too. When they entered workplaces they were offended and probably shocked. But feminists are supposed to be modern, pro-sex, anti-religious…so how to deal with their disgust and horror. They couldn’t admit that they were prudes so instead they claimed that it wasn’t about sex it was about power. Men were sexually objectifying women to oppress and terrorize them. This explanation has never made any sense. The stupidity of the explanation makes it pretty obvious that the feminist disgust is something unjustifiable.
The real truth though is that your disgust is purely a cultural inheritance and basically has everything to do with prudish, Anglo, Christian norms. In fact I find that most of progressivism, feminism, socialism is just disguised Christianity. Concern for the poor, weak, underprivileged, victimology, disgust with sex etc. All you did was through away one religion , rename some terms and call it something else.
Just a thought – maybe women aren’t more assertive or bold towards men they don’t know in public because of the Golden Rule – we treat them the way we’d like to be treated.
Another thought: A lot of women may not give a reaction to catcalling because we’ve been taught, and probably many of us believe, that if a man gives you unwanted sexual attention, it’s not a good idea to do or say anything that would encourage him to take it a step further.
Another thought: Complimenting my dress is complimenting something I consciously chose for myself that likely expresses something about myself, my taste and my personality. Complimenting my eyes means you’re actually looking me in the eye, which is already more personal and intimate than a catcall from across the street about my tits or ass.
Yet another thought: Some women have good reason not to “be bold” and catcall any random man they find attractive. Me? I’m married. Even if I’m out and about without my husband, I’m not going to go around throwing out comments about all the sexy men I see. At most I might stare, or try to steal glances that don’t look like staring – if I have a girlfriend with me, I might say something like “Hottie at your 6 o’clock” but I have no need to make my attraction known to the guy, because I don’t want it to be misconstrued as interest (or, you know, piss off their girlfriend who might be just around the corner).
I’m bi, and I often see women I find really attractive and feel the compulsion to say something to them about how attractive they are, to the point of rehearsing pickup lines in my head (for the hot lady at the dog park… “Not often you see a dog owner who’s cuter than the dog.” Hey-o!) But I never, ever say anything, not sexual at least (“cute outfit!” “I like your hairstyle!”), because I never know if the girl is straight or not (by the odds, she likely is) or if she would be terribly offended by a woman hitting on her. Oh, and the whole married thing, too.
Final thought: I can totally relate to the other women here who have experienced catcalling as humiliation. Pretty much any time a strange man directs a comment at my body or appearance (which I admit happens very, very seldom), I instantly flash back to the bully boys in high school who made such comments in a very facetious way, to embarrass me and other girls in front of our classmates. That was my first experience with such attention, and it obviously left a lasting impression. My gut reaction to such attention is that it must be dishonest, there must be an ulterior motive. I’m not saying all women feel this way, this is my reaction based on my experience – but from what I can tell, my experience isn’t all that uncommon.
“Because I know that guy would think the same thing of any female walking by with tits. I’m a mobile pair of tits which have temporarily come into his view. That’s all. It has absolutely nothing to do with who I am.”
This.
Most of the time, street ‘harrassment’ feels more like men are more trying to humiliate you than they are actually trying to have sex with you. Are we really going to stop by the side of the street and and have a good consensual fuck? Are you even carrying a condom? Do you understand that I have to get to class/work/a meeting–are you planning on asking me if I have a boyfriend? You’re shouting out things about my body parts and then insulting me when I don’t respond in a positive way. You’re scaring me by grabbing parts of my body when I’m not paying attention and taking pictures of me that I didn’t sign up for (both of these have happened to me). What could you possibly be getting out of that but the knowledge that you’ve made me feel uncomfortable. I guess for the pictures and booty grabbing will allow you to fap later. Good for you.
And women do have AXE like ads. Look here:
http://winter61.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/dolce-gabana1.jpg
Yeah, I damn well know the difference between mutual flirting, actual compliments and someone just verbally spray painting me with sexual graffiti as if I was a wall for anyone to write on.
“It has absolutely nothing to do with who I am”
By this logic, your dress has nothing to do with who you are. Your eyes don’t. etc
But its worse. I would argue your intelligence has nothing to do with who you are. Or your education. Your job. Your accomplishments. Even perhaps your successes. If your going to feel objectified by tits … feel free. But to be consistent you should also feel objectified by all of the above because they have nothing to do with who you are either.
You miss the point. If, in our society, a person was sexually equated to their eyes (or their dress, or whatever), to the point where they stop being seen as a person, and started to be seen as a mobile pair of eyes, or a mobile dress, or a mobile education, then your statement would be valid. However, that’s not how our society works. It’s problematic when our society starts equating an entire human with a specific body part (or personality trait, etc)…when a woman is no longer a person, but rather just a pair of breasts. I suppose a reverse for men would be when men are seen as nothing more than a mobile check book. Suddenly the man is no longer a person, but rather an object.
A person is all of the things you mentioned, and more…but a person isn’t just one of those things. I am a combination of my education, job, accomplishments, physical body, family, clothing, personality, culture, biology, etc, etc…all go together to make up me. However, once people stop seeing me as a human that is made up of a whole bunch of different traits, and start identifying me as being just one of those traits, it becomes objectification. I’m no longer a person; I’m an object.
Heather is very right, a person is a COMBINATION of many, many traits. And you know, it IS possible to objectify based on things that aren’t even sexual or body related. Remember the article about the nerd girl (I cant’ remember who wrote it) who got a lot of simply male attention because of that and felt it wasn’t genuine? Or knowing someone is only interested because you’re famous or have a lot of money.
Back to how cat calling should be ‘flattering.’ I was an ugly ducking and didn’t get ‘hot’ until later in high school. I remember this guy walking down the halls and this guy going “daaamn, all these fine bitches up in here.” Then he looks me in the eyes and says, “not you.” In my teenage head, that was quite the insult. So now, when I see a guy who’s telling me I have a nice pair of tits/legs/ass, even eyes, I also see him insulting and rudely ignoring other, worthwhile women. If I took every compliment about my body as flattery, where would I be in 20 or 30 years when they stop? The kind of guy who starts off with a crude comment about a body part doesn’t come off as the kind of guy who would be a respectful lover–much less an actual partner. And that goes back to feeling interchangeable and just assuming that he has a big mouth. And to go back to my previous comment–a lot of the times cat callers have seemed to relish in the fact that I feel embarrassed and uncomfortable, so I don’t know what they could get out of it other than that; since we’re not usually in a venue where we can sneak off and have a good round of safe, consensual sex. It doesn’t meant that I have to cry “harrassment!!” or go around whining about it. But saying that i should be ‘flattered’ is pretty insulting.
@Sarah: “Because I know that guy would think the same thing of any female walking by with tits”
Well, no pair of tits is created equal.
Having said that, you’re probably right. But the same can be said for any part of you (or anybody else): your smile? Ditto. Your eyes? Your intelligence? Your kindness? Yep.
Truth is, although everybody is unique, we are somehow “interchangeable”. Every quality we have, somebody else will have (that’s why people fall in love again and again – thank God).
Yet, I don’t think you’re offended when someone appreciate your eyes, or your intelligence.
So, is the issue about sex and being prude (like assman says), or the way appreciation is expressed? Because yes, I agree that catcalling is rude and obnoxious.
@Sarah: “Also, there is a big difference, as Julie points out, between consensual flirting and harassment”
Agreed. And I never said the contrary.
So let’s talk about the meaning assigned to body parts, Valter, because I don’t think you are naive enough to believe all body parts are considered the same.
Who compliments each other on their elbows, for example?
Eyes have been called the window to the soul, yes? Eyes could be considered a sexual marker, or simply a part of the body that lets others in. Cheekbones? Not so sexual. Lips/mouth? More sexual.
Breasts? Yeah, totally sexual. Ass? Sexual. When I am complimented on my tits, ‘Nice tits!” I doubt the message is “and your babies must be so lucky to nurture themselves there.” It’s sexual as opposed to general.
Intelligence is often considered anti-sexual in this particular game. So if I’m complimented by a stranger on my compelling eyes or my style or my hair or my stride, that’s a much more general compliment than if I am complimented on my mouth, breasts or ass. That’s a much more highly sexualized comment. To me, the more sexualized the comment from a stranger, the more suspect and for several reasons.
1) It’s not considered polite conversation in the US.
2) It shows a lack of boundaries in public space.
3) It indicates as Sarah said, that I’m a walking ass/breasts.
4) The person probably wants something very particular and isn’t interested or worried about my reaction to it, only his freedom to say it.
I’ve never had someone cat call my eyes. or my elbow. Or my knees. Or my hair. Or my intelligence. Only my sexual signal parts. So that seems to make the intent more than clear.
Now that being said, if I’ve met someone who I’ve spoken with etc and he or she moves from general to specific (and I do too) that’s flirting. Going straight to the sexual specific, to me, means the comment is about the commenters desires and that he or she has little interest in the impact on me.
@Velter, the main issue is how it’s expressed. There is really no occasion where it would be appropriate to compliment a woman who is not your girlfriend about her tits, except maybe if you are mutually engaged in heavy flirting and you have a very good rapport built up (even then, there is a chance she will react negatively). But I guess my point is that men tend to think that women should be flattered that a guy likes their tits, ass or whatever. Like assman was saying, men think “boy I would love it if women yelled ‘nice ass!’ at me! I would love it if strange women came up to me and told me they wanted sex! How can women not love it?” I get it, I really do. It’s frustrating for men that woman won’t be assertive. But for women it really ISN’T flattering to receive random “compliments” from strangers about our anatomy. We know that ALL guys like tits and ass so the fact that they might like OUR tits and ass is totally meaningless. If some random guy tells me “nice tits”, I’m just 3D porn to him. There is no difference between me and some anonymous female with nice tits he saw on the Internet yesterday. He’s just reacting brainlessly to visual stimuli and I happen to be the stimuli that walked by.
yes
Assman – “Street harassment as women call it is a privilege and women should recognize it as such. I speak for most men on this blog is saying that when comes to sexual initiation, flirtation we will gladly trade places with you”
I have to admit I read nothing after this. Why? Because I’m angry. Here’s the thing. Have you ever experienced street harassment? It can be terrifying. But even if it’s not terrifying, it’s also an implication that your body is valued way more than any other aspect of you. I’ve always wished I were not conventionally attractive because of the attention I’ve received from males that has been so uncomfortable.
But here’s the other hand – I also recognize, empathize, and completely understand how difficult it can be to be a male. You are the expected initiator, but how terrifying can that be? I’ve initiated a million times and have been turned down nearly as many. I get it. Honestly, I do. You know why I’ve initiated? Because I wanted to know how hard it was to be in that position. So I can really empathize. BUT, street harassment, having been on the harassed side of it, is NOT a privilege. I’m sure the preceding comments addressed this, but it is by no means flattering, it is not a privilege in any way to be harassed. It is a form of violence.
The point that I found the most important was the last bullet about “basking in your own mojo” was talked about the least.
Whether you call it mojo or swagger, we are talking about the confidence that a man shows. The confidence to be who you are and to man up and do the right thing in all situations.
“do the right thing in all situations”
which is totally impossible since right and wrong are 100% relative.
I think that one has to remember the corollary to this as well. Don’t assume someone’s into you, just because they talk to you or flirt with you or the like. I tend to do that, and it always ends up setting me up for disappointment. Try to go into things with a fairly blank mind, and don’t hype things up, or you will end up feeling like crap.
“Try to go into things with a fairly blank mind, and don’t hype things up, or you will end up feeling like crap.”
Good call, but much easier said than done–for both men and women. I had a girl friend who would go to this bar every weekend, spend ridiculous amounts of money, and hope that the bartender noticed her. She went on and on about him, and it led to a devastation of both mind and her wallet. It was his job to be nice and flirty, but that doesn’t mean it would ever lead to anything.
Did she ever actually ask him out? Cause that could have shortened the process considerably.
That’s a good point, and I don’t think she ever did. She spent way too much time and money trying to work up the mental (and liquid) courage, but never was able to pull the trigger. It’s amazing how much a fear of rejection affects the stuff we do.
um, not to mention hitting on the bartender, male or female is STRICTLY frowned upon in gender egalitarian circles.
http://captainawkward.com/2011/07/04/blanket-statement-monday-stop-hitting-on-the-waitress/
http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/842438
http://triblocal.com/naperville/community/stories/2010/02/heres-a-tip-guys-dont-hit-on-your-waitresses/
I’m not a prude and I’m not disgusted by sex. I AM disgusted by MEN who yell “nice tits” at me. (If lesbians harassed me on the street, I’d be equally disgusted. But that has never happened.) I don’t believe most of those guys are trying to make me feel good about myself, they are actually trying to upset me and make me uncomfortable, as Aya mentions. Because no sane man would believe that yelling “nice tits” at a random woman will lead to sex, or even a date.
Again, we aren’t talking about real flirting or polite compliments, we’re talking about a*holes who think it’s funny to catcall women who are just trying to go about their day peacefully.
Sorry, that comment is supposed to be a reply to assman, above.
“Because no sane man would believe that yelling “nice tits” at a random woman will lead to sex, or even a date.”
True but why shouldn’t it. I would rather live in a culture where it does lead to a date.
“I don’t believe most of those guys are trying to make me feel good about myself, they are actually trying to upset me and make me uncomfortable, as Aya mentions.”
Some are and some are actually trying to pay you a compliment. Believe it or not men look at women’s breasts a LOT and often we are thinking exactly that. We repress ourselves to avoid saying it.
Men are often afraid to talk to women. Women never understand why. Partly its because you get offended so easily. A lot of men are afraid to say something that will offend you. It would of course help if you were much much less easily offended.
But lets say your right and they are trying to making you feel bad. Then your best response to nice tits would be while offering a huge smile: “Thank you…your so kind”. Wouldn’t that be the best way to thwart them?
If you know that women don’t like those kinds of “compliments” and you yell “nice tits” at them anyway, you ARE choosing to upset women and make them uncomfortable and justifying it by telling yourself, “women are too easily offended!” How is that a compliment? Aren’t compliments supposed to make other people feel good? Yet you are intentionally making her feel bad. She will rightly conclude that you are an a*hole. I suspect most of the guys who yell “nice tits” know that it bothers women but they do it anyway because they enjoy aggressively asserting their own sexual feelings and imposing those feelings on another person, whether that person likes it or not. it’s like being a flasher, in a way. “Look at me!”
Julie:
There should be classes on flirting! I should start one!
I’d sign up for it!
There’s a difference between ineffective flirting and harassment. I genuinely think that most of the people who do harass (unless they’re mentally ill or have a social disorder) know what they’re doing. Just like there’s a difference between a woman who politely declines or acts busy/uninterested and one who is a total bitch about like the woman in fred’s story. I have a few stories of ineffective flirting and harassment from my own life (all of these are true):
Ineffective flirting: I was walking to the bus stop with a giant backpack on. I had my earbuds in and was distracted, trying to enjoy my walk to a nerve wracking event. He didn’t take any hints–he didn’t notice my back was hurting, that I was panting, that I kept trying to go back to my headphones and end the conversation. He kept talking about how he was in a band and messing with his skinny jeans the entire half a mile he walked with me.
Harrassment: A group of six guys following me home and saying lewd things to me all the way back.
Ineffective flirting: I was working and a man came up to me and kept talking about how much money he had and if he could fly me out to Hawaii. Well–that’s a little fast and braggy.
Harassment: A high clerk once tried to lock me in a small store, glared at me the entire time I was shopping, and muttered sexist things under his breath.
Ineffective flirting: A guy once saw me working at my computer in a grocery store and made me a bouquet of flowers. It was beautiful and romantic, but extreme amounts of pressure for a first meeting. I felt uncomfortable and put on the spot.
Harassment: When you offer me a gift and then call me whore/bitch/slut/dyke when I decline.
Ineffective flirting: Starting with generic compliments, questions, (ranging from nice ass/tits, you have nice eyes, to “what kind of music do you listen to”). Now this one depends on on the context, of course and can actually be very EFFECTIVE if you’re able to read cues or in the right arena. Just don’t take it the wrong way if it doesn’t work. The concept of ‘being interchangeable’ has come up a lot in this thread, which is why these types of things can be ineffective except in the right situations (and there are many).
Harassment: Actually grabbing a part of my body, following me around with a camera, continuing to talk to me and ask me questions about my personal life after I’ve asked you to stop.
Catcalling is somewhere in between. I see it as just stupid. It’s not flattering, it’s not insulting. It’s just–why? And when you say such things, do you think of her father, her boyfriend, her brother at home? What would they think? Do you care about how your mother would feel about this? What about your current/future girlfriend?
Well I think this was a great breakdown of the difference between awkward flirting and actual harassment.
This is great, but I know plenty of women who would consider many of your “ineffective flirting” things harassment. It’s often hard for a guy to know who he’s dealing with.
That’s why I just don’t do it. I’ve had small talk interpreted as harassment. I guess women can miss cues as well.
exactly, thats the problem with all this bs about “reading cues” the truth is that all of this “reading” of body language and social cues and language tone and choice of words is really just guessing.
you my be “pretty sure” your being positively perceived but the idea of only moving forward if you are “sure its mutual” is literally impossible, because all of this “subtle” message crap doesn’t work. this is why human beings developed language, because grunting and winking and subtly shaking are horribly inefficient means of communication, thats why as a child you pant and whine and cry and point to get what you want and when you grow up you straight up ask.
but straight up asking has been defined by feminists as “too forward” or by most considered “un romantic”. Just read any post on “enthusiastic consent” and you’ll get a bunch of dribble about how “if you think you have to verbally ask somebody before you perform every single sexual action you suck in bed”. when the bottom line is unless you do that, you are making an assumption, no matter how much you THINK your sure, you can’t be 100%
I realize this is a bit off topic and im not defending harassment of any kind but the bottom line is as it stands no matter the setting, if your a dude and you say ANYTHING to a strange women, you are supposed to “read the cues” (aka guess) to find out if you are being well received, rather than to ask a question and receive a stark yes or no. and if you get the guess right, your “flirting” and if you get it wrong, your in the same bucket with the rest of the people yelling “nice ass” from cars as they go by. There is no middle ground.
As a result, those of us that know that communicating with a strange reason for any reason stands a percentage of “guessing wrong” and getting a can of mace to the face solve this problem by simply staying quiet.
the only solution is to go without.
I think if you took a moment to try to read the cues, you’d be surprised at how well you do. Look at my post and the Mr. Skinny Jeans example. He’s not a harasser, but if he just took a moment to look at me and take in what was going on, he wouldn’t have wasted his time. I take some blame for that, because I didn’t outright say, “I’m not interested, please leave me alone.” I have trouble distinguishing between being forthright and being rude (and don’t want to assume that every guy who talks to me is trying to have sex with me). There is ABSOLUTELY a middle ground between mace in the face and sex. There’s not being interested, having a boyfriend, being super stressed, being interested but unsure because you just met the person, considering a date, etc. If a woman isn’t interested in you, chances are extremely low that she’ll spray mace in your face or call the harassment police. Where do you talk to people where that’s even a regular thing? If you’re coming up behind women on the street at 2am and telling them that they have a pretty smile…I can see how that might weird some women out. Guessing ‘wrong’ in terms of social cues rarely means that you’re a rapist or harasser. If a woman does call you that when you’re simply trying to talk to her (not following her or invading her space or affecting her work), that’s on her. You move on to the next one.
You’re right though–”straight up asking” is not romantic. I don’t know what to say about that one. It’s not a part of the culture in the States, for better and worse.
Meant to write a longer response, but busy.
“I think if you took a moment to try to read the cues, you’d be surprised at how well you do.”
I’ve done it, and outlined some of my attempts in the above comments, and for every person in this thread who has said “those are extreme examples, the problem wasn’t you”, I’ve had several times that number of people tell me the exact opposite.
What makes them wrong and you right? How is me simply saying “I didn’t cross a line, you just took it wrong” any different from denying privilege?
the fact that a “middle ground exists” isn’t the point, the point is I have zero control over weather or not I get there or not. Control over that lies totally in the person I approach (if I were to approach people). I have to “trust” that the person I’m going to talk to isn’t going to mace me in the face after I read the signs and read “good idea” because if I get it wrong, not a SINGLE person is coming to my defense… because im the guy, even worse, the big, black, guy…
and if you agree that “straight up asking is not romantic” where is the middle ground? The way this reads, there are 2 options, you can either be polite and direct every time so as to treat people with respect and be shunned and rejected or “not being romantic”, an “just not getting it” or you can “be a friend first” when you really just approached for sex, which makes you a liar and a Nice Guy “TM”
the fact is, nobody so far has illustrated a “safe” way to approach without risking offense. Every time this conversation comes up, if your the guy, your either a misogynistic PUA, a harraser who got maced in the face, or lucky, because you got a yes answer. In the world of men, a polite “no, but your approach was quite ok, im just not interested” does not exist, and if it does, women are CERTAINLY not being pressured or even encouraged to provide it.
it is as I said earlier, unless your cool with risking being “that guy”, the only winning move is not to play.
For my part, I have always tried to give a polite “no, I’m not interested” kind of response. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. Some guys politely leave me alone, others ramp up the pressure, and a couple times in my life, someone has become belligerent (“Why won’t you go out with me? Are you a snob?)
Basically I don’t think the rom-com fantasy of just bumping into Mr./Ms. Right on the bus is very realistic. As I said in my comment below, “cold calling” is probably the worst way to meet people. Probably the majority of women don’t appreciate being interrupted by strangers while they are just trying to go about their day, just lI,e you don’t appreciate telemarketers.
The solution is to try to meet women in venues where everyone is looking to get to know each other and make conversation. Take an improv class. Take a cooking class. Volunteer. Join a book group. Go to meetup.com events. Learn ballroom dancing. There are millions of possibilities that are better than approaching strangers.
“and if you agree that “straight up asking is not romantic” where is the middle ground?”
When I said that, I thought you meant that as going up to someone in a public arena and asking a woman if she wants to have sex with you or commenting on on a body part, not asking her out on a date or engaging in conversation. Once again, middle ground is not being interested, and all the many things I said above. Not romantic does not equal OMG mace! And don’t take the phrase ‘enthusiastic consent’ too seriously. The word ‘enthusiastic’ is a little extreme, and even many feminists agree. It’s a good thought, but I don’t think the campaign is that effective, and it alienates a lot of people. As many others have said, there are plenty of reasons to have sex that aren’t necessarily ‘enthusiastic’ (boredom, just being horny, to please a partner, stress relief, ‘it’s been too long and I need it now’, etc…)
“you can “be a friend first” when you really just approached for sex, which makes you a liar and a Nice Guy “TM””
You’re right. It wastes both of your time. Best to at least somewhat put it out there somewhat as early as possible. It’s not even an issue of the woman getting offended that you tried to have sex with her (who cares–she’s either interested or not)–it’s an issue of her getting offended at YOU getting offended that that she wasn’t interested in you. She doesn’t ‘owe’ you anything because you’re her friend. –that’s the part that’s insulting–not that you might have a sexual attraction to her. You’re going to pretend to be her friend for months and then call her a bitch and go whine on the internet when she finds a boyfriend who isn’t you even though you never made made a move? Yeah, no.
“In the world of men, a polite “no, but your approach was quite ok, im just not interested” does not exist”
Completely untrue, as I’ve said above. At this point, we’re going in circles. I’ve been in plenty of situations where this has been the case. Maybe I didn’t give advice on the effectiveness of the approach (women have things to do and lives too), but I certainly didn’t insult or do anything cruel/violent.
Just to put it out there–going in with the attitude of being afraid and angry is not going to win you any points. About someone offering a ‘safe’ approach–one man did suggest online dating. If you’re really that scared of approaching women in public, that’s a good option–and has proven pretty effective for many guys I know. You live in the Bay Area? Have you tried meet up groups or just going out with a group of friends? What about social hobbies and clubs? Taking in a class in…something? Women are FAR more responsive in these types of cases than when they’re trying to get somewhere on the BART or Muni.
“Not romantic does not equal OMG mace!”
It can, thats the point, the problem is risking the worst case scenario (wich happens often) not that “some girls are nice”. Perhaps this is a female privilage thing and thats why its hard for women to understand?
“Completely untrue, as I’ve said above. At this point, we’re going in circles.”
were going in circles because your telling me about what you “do” when you want to say no politely and im telling you what happend the FEW times I “put myself out there” and did NOT get that reaction. again, your response type is NOT common in my experience, perhaps this really is a female privilege thing.
“Just to put it out there–going in with the attitude of being afraid and angry is not going to win you any points.”
thats easy for you to say, you don’t have the social pressure of “constantly being the peruser” and have the experience of never being approached to back up that reality. And I don’t know about you but as I described earlier I HAVE been attacked, some times physically for “putting myself out there”. It’s dangerous and thats why I stopped doing it.
“You live in the Bay Area? Have you tried meet up groups or just going out with a group of friends?”
I go to several local bars in my city all the time, I’m a regular, I know the staff, talk to them and enjoy specialty beer, still really not sure what this has to do with the fact that there is no way to approach a woman in the place without risking a severe negative reaction.
“What about social hobbies and clubs?”
I have a several hobbies, most of them I do alone, the ones I practice with people rarely have any women participation.
“Taking in a class in…something?”
I detest classroom environments
Women are FAR more responsive in these types of cases than when they’re trying to get somewhere on the BART or Muni.”
In my experience, this is not true, I’m just as likely to get called a creep on the BART as I am to get a lecture on how “women are here to participate in X, not get picked up on by men” in a meetup setting, (see bookstore example).
Alright I’ve been on both sides of this, those I’ve never been a man. I have, though, been both someone who’s been the approacher (and then rejected), and someone who’s rejected an unwanted approacher. And, let me tell you, knowing that in the wrong setting, if your gaydar’s a bit off, you might end up offending some woman by assuming she could be *gasp* gay…well it makes approaching them freaking scary sometimes. Heck, man, I’ve had women get offended at me for offering to buy them a drink in a gay bar! Somehow I was supposed to know they were straight and only there with their gay friend. (That’s rare, though. I’ve only ever had a woman actually get offended at a mix-up in a gay bar once). So different circumstances, but a similar level of potential crap to deal with.
Giving up altogether isn’t the solution, though. Just gotta make sure you aren’t purposefully offensive or objectifying when you approach a woman…and realize that most of the time women’ll try to be civil even if they’re going to reject your advances. At least, in my experience women who reject me are mostly civil about it. And whenever I’ve had a guy (or girl) come up to me who I wasn’t interested in, I always try to remain civil.
Funny story: One time I was hit on by a guy in the subway while I was dressed in military pants, a man’s t-shirt, shaved head, and carrying a couple of L Word dvds. So I just said something along the lines of, “I’m in a relationship right now,” and left it at that.
In these comments I’m seeing a lot of guys swear that women are horrible about indicating they aren’t interested, and I’m seeing a lot of women say they always try to remain civil. I dunno, maybe something is being lost in translation somewhere. Or maybe the problem is that we’ve divided the expected behaviours so strictly between the genders, that either side has a hard time seeing the other.
@HeatherN: “In these comments I’m seeing a lot of guys swear that women are horrible about indicating they aren’t interested, and I’m seeing a lot of women say they always try to remain civil”
As statistics go, there will be horrible women and civil women (and eveything in between). Women – like men – come in all shapes and sizes.
If someone is always meeting horrible people, I’d say that:
- S/he is noticing only the bad cases (selective attention/memory).
- S/he is behaving in a way that attracts bad cases (dysfunctional communication or self-fulfilling prophecies…).
Or, s/he is living in a crappy place.
I mean, when something bad happens, one has to ask him(her)self: is it me, or is it the world?
Hint: it’s unlikely it’s always the world.
“Giving up altogether isn’t the solution, though. Just gotta make sure you aren’t purposefully offensive or objectifying when you approach a woman…”
Why, you can make sure all you want it isn’t purposeful, the line is defined by person approached, if they feel objectified, you loose and they are free to punish you however they see fit.
“and realize that most of the time women’ll try to be civil even if they’re going to reject your advances. At least, in my experience women who reject me are mostly civil about it.”
and you are sure they weren’t more civil about it because your a woman perhaps? seriously im starting to think this is strictly a female privilege thing…
I was told that at an “art walk” event. Where Im from / used to live there are events that have propped up recently where all the food trucks in the area park at designated lots in the downtown area along streets with art galleries on them.
The galleries open up for free and i turns into a kind of street fair / reception type atmosphere, you walk down town, hit a food truck for som interesting food, then pass the street performers and often live music as you enter open art galleries and socialize. WIthin this there are other meetups for different subgroups, like students doing art history projects, or fashion class groups who people watch, I know of one group that is focused on weight loss and they hit the trucks and calorie count as a group, then specifically pick galleries that are far from each other and it kinda turns into a combo exercise thing.
One such group is a “singles spots” thing. they tag certain spots as “singles mixer friendly” and put up signs. People are encouraged to get a button or sticker (whichever they are handing out) at one of the stations so that other singles will know your “playing” so to speak and you hit the tagged areas and “mingle”.
The woman in question was at one of the galleries, I had managed to start a conversation about rice dough takoyaki vs the stuff made with white flour when I asked “ya know this conversation might be more pleasant while sitting and holding drinks, you wanna find a place?”
I already posted her response <_<. and yes… she had a button
@fred, re the art event, I see 2 possibilities (maybe a combination of both): (a) she was unreasonable/over-sensitive, (2) she didn’t like your offer because she was at the event to mingle and meet people and she didn’t want to immediately leave the event and go off with you to go have drinks; she felt like you were suddenly “putting the moves on her” so to speak. so, other options would have been to message her after the event using the meetup website and ask if she’d like to meet you and a low stress activity like the farmer’s market or a museum, or maybe when the event was winding down and people were leaving, ask her if she wants to go get a cup of coffee. Again, this is stuff you could learn by taking a dating skills class or get a dating coach. Those are just 2 ideas. It’s also possible that she was just a bitchy person. Anyway, No one is born knowing the right way to interact with everyone.
thnx, but to keep on topic, my original point was not “why didn’t this approach method work with this one woman” my point was I polite and didn’t get a polite no, i was reprimanded and told I was inappropriate.
I don’t care about increasing “success”, i care about minimizing damage, the 2 are not the same concern.
@fred, unfortunately some people are just rude. I guess I don’t have any advice for that except keep trying. But if you find that you always get a rude response then you have 3 possibilities: (a) all women are rude, (b) for some reason you are only approaching women who are inclined to be rude, or (3) something you are doing is provoking a rude response. You can’t do anything about (a), but (b) and (c) may be under your control.
or d), I can just not hit on women all together, and just not run the risk.
If you’ve been told “women aren’t here to get picked up on” at meetup events, then have you considered maybe you are coming on too strong? Just try to make casual conversation to start with. Act like you are there to have a fun time and meet new people, don’t come across as someone who is looking to get laid or whatever.
“Act like you are there to have a fun time and meet new people, don’t come across as someone who is looking to get laid or whatever.”
Act like you want to just be friends with a person whom your actually attracted to. That’s a text book example of Nice Guy(TM)ism.
And the only time I got that response was on a dating website (the one time I tried one).
Every guy I’ve ever dated I’ve met in a friends first situation. There is a difference between being a guy who is nice, likes the people he is around, is easy to get to know and can relay attraction without pressure and a Nice Guy TM.
Im really not sure what the “difference between nice guys and nice guy TMs” has to do with my previous statement. If you see a woman and your attracted to her and you approach her to be her friend and do not exhibit any signs of attraction or make known that you are attracted to her, your a Nice Guy TM.
The idea that there is this “gray zone” where your supposed to be friends first and then figure out how to make your attraction known in a non direct way within a short time, otherwise if you let a “long” time go buy and never “make a move” then you were faking the friendship the whole time and are a NGTM is stupid.
also this thread has gone off topic but im aware there is a difference, i’ve had women friends whom i got to know because i was attracted to them, then later on disclosed that attraction within appropriate boundaries and gotten “polite no”s in the past, they just also more often than not also stop being friends.
to be fair though i have also had such exchanges end in angry lectures on how “if i was truly attracted to them i should have been up front with them in the first place and not positioned myself as a friend first” because they considered it misleading and disrespectful.
@Fred, I’m not saying you should hang around women in a passive, de-sexed kind of way. But you said you were at a meetup event where you were told, “women aren’t here to get picked up on,” that suggests to me that you came on way too strong. It’s possible to be friendly and get to know women and not act like you are hitting on them or overwhelming them with your sexual attraction. . It sounds like maybe you need to work on interpersonal skills. How about a dating coach? A lot of this stuff can be learned.
sry i hit the wrong reply button, the post replying to @sara is above
“or d), I can just not hit on women all together, and just not run the risk.”
fred–You really have a one track mind (filled with paranoia). If I still lived in the Bay Area, I’d want to take you out and observe just to get a perspective on what exactly is causing it (I realize you have stories and bad experiences, but it’s gotten to the point where you’re not wanting to live your life). It’s not a bad thing to not want to offend anyone, it just seems like you’re pretty stuck on it and not willing to even look at advice that might help.
There is more to life than finding a partner, and “who asks who” is only a portion of that question. Everybody has “bad experiences” I simply mitigate mine by not being the approacher. Plenty of women adopt this position due to the simple fact that offended angry people are dangerous, I don’t see why this position differs when the person saying it is male.
All salespeople know that “cold calling” is the most difficult and most unrewarding form of sales. The success rate is dismal. In most cases, approaching a stranger in a public place and trying to engage them in a conversation is the equivalent of cold calling random phone numbers and hoping you will reach someone who wants to buy life insurance. You are going to have a huge failure rate. You could be the most intuitive, most perceptive guy on the planet and your rate of failure will still be enormous for a whole list of reasons.
solution, stop cold calling.
It could be that it’s just part of the job. And high rate of failure doesn’t mean NO success at all.
The worst that can happen on a cold call is you get hung up on, the worst that can happen in real life is you get decked in the face and then have tales of how poorly you performed strewn about the social circle you approached in. The risks are much MUCH higher within the latter scenario and since “women approach men too”, it makes no sense to try and take ALL the risk ALL the time.
Who are these people who are so cruel to you? This is confusing to me. Why would you hang out with them?
I’ll echo Julie here and say that sounds like the people you’re talking about are particularly cruel.
I have made 13 approaches in my life time that I can distinctly remember. 3 of them have ended in “polite no”s. all were friends, only one of which chose to remain a friend after her decline.
out of the remaining 10 that I can recall, 4 have ended in violence, the others ended in very bitter departing comments except for 1. That one burst into laughter for several minutes before inviting other female patrons of the place to join in by approaching them, telling them the story of my “failure” and then proceeding to laugh…
…I left the place around 20 min later
Sooooo…obviously I can’t see what you are doing when you are talking to women, but I’m having a hard time imagining what sane human being gets violent with another over a flirtation. One of two scenarios come to mind.
1) you are approaching people who are emotionally unstable/cruel and have run into more than the usual average.
2) you are doing something that is odd enough that women are reacting oddly.
I would suggest getting a friend that is perhaps not one of the women that seems mean to you (or hire a dating coach) and have them actually give you feed back on which option is causing the problem.
according to my few friends who bring this stuff up and have specifically “dragged me out to see me in action” (since im reprimanded consistently for “not taking initiative”), I have a “knack for meeting seriously messed up women and have allowed it to skew my perspective on women in general”. but in all seriousness, if the “rules” for how to treat people don’t work in all situations then they really aren’t very good rules are they.
@Kaleb: “I know plenty of women who would consider many of your “ineffective flirting” things harassment.”
I think I heard about many women with this attitude:
- if they consider the approaching guy attractive, then it’s flirting;
- if they consider the approaching guy unattractive, then he’s a creep.
So, oftentimes it’s quite subjective.
Nope. Valter your bias is showing. Sometimes harassment is just harassment, no matter how handsome the person is.
We, as women and men, should be able to walk down the street without having our personal space invaded by anyone, man or woman, touching us, taking time out of our days to ask us to do something for them (smile, get our number) for their benefit.
Example, personal and true. Yesterday, a handsome guy approached me on the street as I was walking alone with headphones on, and while I won’t go into details, he scared and angered me greatly with what he did and how he acted. I got hit on a few weeks ago in a diner, by a guy who I didn’t find particularly attractive, but he was charming and funny and we had a great conversation. His flirtations were not at all creepy or unwanted.
Context, location, timing, attitude…this all matters. Looks? Sure, that’s a factor in how people react to each other, but it’s not the only factor Valter. I wish there was a way to get you to understand that, Valter.
“Sometimes harassment is just harassment”
Of course. Here I’m talking about “normal” people, not psychos or freaks. Not the extremes.
And, oh, bias: I seem to notice yours more and more, lately. Having a bad hair day(week)?
).
This time, you seem to defend women no-matter-what; you seem to exclude the possibility that SOME women (I never said “all of them”) base their attitude mainly on others’ looks (just like many dudes do – it’s still parity, isn’t it?
I’m sure YOU don’t do that, but I wasn’t talking about YOU.
Can you acknowledge that some people (be them men or women) are that shallow?
Or do you think only men can be that way?
I was ironic, you sound pissed off.
I’m glad you decided to talk about this offsite, since this sounds personal.
“I hope you’ll respond to them.”
Sure I will.
Anyway, I think everybody should try to keep in mind that their own personal stuff/issues can be faraway and different from the world (and people) at large.
But I understand anybody can slip on this.
Valter…no no NO. Looks can be a part of it, but it’s FAR from all of it. To reiterate Julie: context, location, timing, attitude. Looks are maybe 5% of the equation when it comes to seeing someone as a ‘creep’. For me, if there’s anything that gives off red flags (when it comes to flirting), it’s an age difference…although this is different for every woman. A man twice my age or one who looks/acts like he’s in high school flirting with me is far worse than one who doesn’t have abs or a chiseled chin.
“although this is different for every woman”
meaning, you stand the change of being a creep no matter what you do.
And at some point, fred, you need to stop caring what random people think. I’m not saying that I’m there myself, but it’s good advice if you can figure it out and get out of your head. Every time I go out and wear heels and a shirt that shows cleavage, I know that many people think that I’m a slut, trashy, unclassy, up for grabs, etc. Does that mean that I won’t wear my cute heels and tops? It shouldn’t. Same goes (but with different insults) for when I don’t have time to dress nicely (slob, let herself go), when I have sex or talk about it (whore, attention whore), when I stand in the corner and don’t feel like talking to people (weirdo, mental issues, stuck up bitch), when I dare to make friends with a man (dumb tease), etc. If it’s a woman that you’ll never see again in your life (or she’s just in a mean, judgmental place in her life), who cares if she thinks you’re a creep? Ideally, your fear of being judged shouldn’t keep you from living your life, but I understand how that’s easier said than done.
even if those random people are women accusing me of misogyny? “not caring what they think” dosen’t make me “just another man who dosen’t listen”?
when you KNOW nobody is coming to your defense, it’s pretty impossible to claim immunity over being “just another dude who dosen’ get it”
Guys, just go on a freakin social website. That’s what they’re for. And keep your mouth shut out in public. Boy these are easy problems. Next one please….
most women would argue a social website is also a “public space” and is thusly also an inappropriate venue to approach.
the only method that does not break any social rules set fourth by most proclaimed feminists and some women is to not approach at all and let them come to you, and if they don’t, they don’t.
I agree, fred, if you’re talking about a social network like Facebook. I think Ace was talking about sites like Plentyoffish and OKCupid – you know, dating sites. AFAIK it’s still OK for men to approach women on those sites.
Back when I used OKCupid, the protocol was for men to talk to the women. It was never, ever (at least in my case) the other way around, so I got used to sending out dozens of “Get to know me” messages and not hearing back at all. But I must admit that’s still easier than being rejected in person.
It’s funny, because in the past 9 months I’ve had an OKCupid profile, I have had 7 people visit my profile. It is completely filled out with pictures and everything, and I have had a grand total of 7 visitors and 0 messages. It’s pretty impressive the different experiences of people just based on gender. Women get thousands of people viewing their profile, and I can’t even get 1 person a month!
I had an ok cupid account for about 2 weeks, I sent 3 messages, 2 ignored me and 1 responded with “I have no idea why you thought it was ok to contact me being male, obviously if I want to talk to you ill contact YOU, thats why these sites exist, so women can browse available men in a safe environment.”
… i deleted my account 2 days later.
OK. I stand corrected. It’s hopeless…that would make it MGTOW time.
But seriously. I see some real problems with relationships in the future. The whole attraction thing may just be a phase humanity is going through. Maybe our future will be like the grays…one gender, no sex, and somebody else’s bitch. At least we’ll have beaten that whole speed of light barrier.
wouldn’t want to relegate all people to that future but it would be quite marvelous to be able to take a pill and turn the “male gase” off for 8 – 12 hours until i got home for the day, or perhaps take one that relegates desire for 2 – 3 hours before going out.
Some of my thoughts as a young women based on the threads above:
1) If a guy EVER came up to me and said ‘nice tits’ or ‘nice ass’ that would be the END of the conversation. Commenting on my body versus my face ‘you have a beautiful smile’ or ‘I noticed your bright eyes from across the room’ are NOT EVER interchangeable. At it’s worst, it can be seen as aggressively rude (like you want to jump into bed with me—and we haven’t even spoken yet!) and at best, makes you seem like an immature horny teenager. Any MAN that wants to have a chance with me will act like one.
2) If you don’t take the time to read what I like to call the ‘cues of consent’ you will almost ALWAYS come off as a jerk—-and to me you would DEFINITELY be one. If you won’t even take the one minute to read if I’m interested, why should I take the time to bother with you AT ALL? If I’m looking at you kindly, smiling, paying you full attention, speaking in polite, full sentences I’m INTERESTED. No, this may not always result in a date (depending on her availability, wanting a date, YOUR physical state of cleanliness/neatness, breath etc.) but that is what CONSENT looks like. If I’m still listening to my headphones, on my smartphone, looking at my watch, not making eye contact, answering in one word sentences, with a general look of non-caring on my face after you have started talking I’m NOT INTERESTED. If I directly tell you I’m not interested—I’m—you guessed it—NOT INTERESTED. I’ve had too many experiences where I tell guys directly that I’m not interested and they KEEP TALKING. Why waste your time? I’m not magically going to come around and say “Well, since you kept HARASSING me/asked me what my problem was/asked if I was lesbian/told me I was a snobby bitch—-YES! LET’S GO ON A DATE RIGHT NOW!”
3) As Julie, Sarah, Aya , and Heather have said —there is a big difference between mutual flirting and harassment. BEST QUOTE EVER: “Yeah, I damn well know the difference between mutual flirting, actual compliments and someone just verbally spray painting me with sexual graffiti as if I was a wall for anyone to write on.” (Thanks for this Julie!) FLIRTING is MUTUAL. HARASSMENT is NOT. (See #2)
4) Please believe #1-#3. I will never understand why men don’t believe woman when we say how certain actions make us feel. Women say: “OOH! A guy having a nice convo with me and complimenting my eyes is sweet! A guy yelling ‘nice tits’ is NOT!” Men say: “What? You are just too sensitive!” Um…even if I AM—that mindset will get you NOWHERE. Please BELIEVE us when we identify behaviors that are good and bad and stick with the GOOD. NO, it will not GUARANTEE you a date—NOTHING WILL—-but it will make it a heck of a lot more likely than if you are perceived as RUDE.
5) Lastly (BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY!) Realize that none of this is NEW. The world is still populated with people so obviously men learning how to speak to women is possible and has been done—-after all there are men that have managed to do it so well that they even end up MARRIED! Understand that you are not hopeless, we are not just ‘overly sensitive’, and you can find someone for you if you understand that women want to be treated with kindness and respect.
Just my two (or five, LOL!) cents. <3
“Any MAN that wants to have a chance with me will act like one.”
you can define what actions you think are rude but don’t define masculinity for the rest of us against your perception of “rudeness. This is just like men who rate women only by her “hotness”, you don’t like it when we do it to you, doing it back is still sexist.
“your entire #2″
adults offer conversation to each other and either accept or politely decline. “Reading cues” is stupid and inaccurate, if you don’t want to continue a conversation, YOU end it, you don’t expect the other person to hold your hand through the interaction, this attitude of expecting people to “guess” when they can just talk like regular people is incredibly childish, and a GIANT waste of time.
“3) As Julie, Sarah, Aya , and Heather have said —there is a big difference between mutual flirting and harassment.”
somebody has to start, and the judgement of the first statement’s “mutuality” is entirely relative so it’s not like its even remotely possible to “only engage in mutual flirting” 100% of the time. All communication harbors risk, particularly for the initiator.
“4) Please believe #1-#3. I will never understand why men don’t believe woman when we say how certain actions make us feel”
because believe it or not, not all women say the same thing (not that im disagreeing with the rest of what you said there, im just pointing out that you only speak for yourself, not “all women”, “good” and “bad” are entirely relative)
“Understand that you are not hopeless, we are not just ‘overly sensitive’, and you can find someone for you if you understand that women want to be treated with kindness and respect.”
im pretty sure nobody’s arguing the antithesis of that, the argument is that what constitutes “respect” is entirely relative among human beings from different cultural settings.
“Sometimes you need to realize that those really are good signs. You’re awesome, and she wants you!”
That headline under a picture of two women grabbing a man’s ass is unbelievably insensitive.
You act as if when men are groped by women it’s a good thing.
Unbelievable.
“That headline under a picture of two women grabbing a man’s ass is unbelievably insensitive.
You act as if when men are groped by women it’s a good thing.”
May I remind you that YOUR opinion might not be (or it’s likely not) EVERYBODY’s opinion?
For many men, I think, being “groped” by women IS a good thing; many of them would like it happening MORE.
(please notice I said “many” men; I don’t think I can talk for all of them)
I respect your opinion and the issues you can have about the subject matter, but please keep in mind your opinion can be (and probably is) in the minority.
Talking like the world revolves around you (or it should), makes your opinion less likely to be taken into account.
And, above all, nobody can please everybody.
There is a huge difference between being touched by a woman a woman groping a man by grabbing his ass without consent. If this picture instead showed two men grabbing a woman’s ass in a public place it would imply the same thing, that they are touching her without her consent. Do you think *that’s* a good thing, bro? Whether some people enjoy that or not, you should not be encouraging that type of behavior because not only is it incredibly offensive, it’s illegal.
If you personally want strange women grabbing your ass, that’s fine dude, but judging by that sentiment and by your picture it sounds like you don’t get a lot of attention from women. That would make you the minority, pal. And accusing me of talking as if the world revolves around me just makes you sound like you’re out of touch with reality. Go back and read my three line comment again and try to extrapolate more ridiculous claims. I’ll be busy spending time with women who don’t have to grope me to show their interested because they know I’m a man who isn’t so pathetically desperate for female attention that I welcome any woman to touch me as she sees fit.
@Jimmy: “I’ll be busy spending time with women”
You lucky dude.
@Jimmy: “it sounds like you don’t get a lot of attention from women. That would make you the minority, pal”
Maybe I’m in the low of the genetic pool.
But, reading around, I don’t think I’m in the minority, in regard of getting attention from women.
Hi Jimmy, I’m the head comment moderator and I just sent you an email to the address listed on your comments. It bounced back immediately. Would you please email me at julie@goodmenproject.com?
Thanks.
Sent. I assume this is in regards to my comments about Valter not receiving much attention from women. I thought that was pretty relevant considering his positive stance on women groping men they don’t know, you know, sexual assault.
No, Jimmy. It’s on another matter. Thanks,
Julie