Following Clarisse Thorn and Amanda Marcotte, Rachel Rabbit White offers more pickup advice for guys.
Hitting on people can be hard, so I can empathize with guys who feel they need to use pickup tactics to meet women—sort of. (Maybe you’ve heard of “negs?” I once had a guy come up to me and say: “Oh those shoes look comfortable.” I turned around and hobbled away.) Aside from being just groan-worthy, seduction-community tactics are ethically and practically problematic and often, plainly, sexist. But the PUA approach is tempting for guys who have social anxiety—and a resulting awkwardness—around women. I understand that the fear of rejection can be paralyzing.
On this site, Clarisse Thorn recently offered ethical dating advice for men who might otherwise be lured by pickup artistry. Amanda Marcotte responded with a smart, useful article which can be boiled down to three essential maxims: 1) women are your sexual equals, 2) go after women who are in your league (with whom you have common interests), and 3) find some real self-confidence, kid.
These are necessary starting points. But I want to get specific about the actual pickups themselves, because I’ve been a victim of poorly executed pickups, as have most girls I know. There is nothing wrong with picking someone up in a bar, but you can do it with integrity—and without a furry hat.
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The Approach:
When I was single and going out to “unz unz” nightclubs, I didn’t hook up with guys who approached me. The approach throws me out of my comfort zone. Here’s why: women get this shit all the time. We get it waiting for the bus at 7 a.m., carrying our groceries home, hobbling in heels: unwanted howls, name-calls, and come-ons. Sudden strange attention throws us into an scary, uncomfortable space we’re all too familiar with—and want out of. This is why my advice to guys is don’t approach randomly. Try letting women come to you.
Looking back on my $13 martini days, I did hook up with a lot of guys I approached. I chose guys who made friendly eye contact with me, who smiled, who struck up a conversation when we were near each other and unoccupied.
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The Opener:
You’ve experienced a pickup if you’ve heard things like, “Hey, what’s this from: ‘Nobody puts Baby in a corner’?” or “You look like trouble.” To which, four years ago, I would be like, “No, I’m ‘&Hearts’; ‘Trouble’ is Katie’s MySpace name. I think she’s here, though.”
But I get it—opening conversations can be tough. So here is my secret tip: smile and say hi.
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The Conversation:
It can be hard keeping a conversation going. My recommendation is to be in the moment—be spontaneous, not rehearsed. And be real—true to yourself and the things you care about.
After “Hi,” try some personal insight—it doesn’t have to be worked out all the way. Open with how strange life is instead of how weird the weather has been. The best conversations aren’t ones where you talk about movies and TV and books and music, but about your ideas and feelings in the moment—about what it’s like to experience this odd life. It’s about getting at the human experience. It’s about sparking empathy as well as interesting conversation. Finding yourself in one of these conversations feels like suddenly finding yourself stranded on an island with this person.
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The Consent
Back in those nightclubs, it wasn’t rare that I’d find my Long Island–swilling wing-lady trapped. There she would be, cornered, clearly uncomfortable, as she recited “312-728 …” to some creep with his cellphone out.
Often, women can’t say no to giving out the number when asked. Most of us are brought up from an early age to be cordial and accommodating. This is why my own cellphone is filled with multiple contacts named “Do Not Answer.”
So? Pay attention. Is she enthusiastic about talking to you? Is she warm toward you? Engaging you further? If not, don’t keep on her—or ask for her number, for chrissake! And because, apparently, it needs to be said: if you continually send a woman messages online or via text and she doesn’t respond—back off. Being relentless may work in the movies, but in the real world it’s called harassment.
Clarisse shared a particularly dark ploy of pickup when it comes to sex: the freeze out. It’s where a girl says she doesn’t want to go any further and the PUA relies on passive aggressiveness—instead of the less fancy aggressive aggressiveness—to pressure her. If they are in bed, he will turn away, check his phone, blow out the candles. Again, women are conditioned to keep the peace, to keep others from being angry at us. We are taught that what we have to offer socially is our looks, our sexuality. For this reason, it becomes easy for her to cave when the guy pulls away emotionally. Guys, do you really want to have sex with someone who doesn’t want to have sex with you?
If you’re hooking up, know it is partly your responsibility as a sex partner to gauge how connected and enthusiastic the other half seems, and communicate. (This becomes necessary, for example, if your partner is drunk.)
You’ll have sex when the girl wants to have sex with you too—it’s a partnered dance. Prepare for the possibility that it might take more than one night (sorry). Gauge your partner’s enthusiasm and participation level; great sex comes when both partners are communicating and on the same page.
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Understanding Women? Understand Yourself
PUAs use neuro-linguistic programming tactics, a part of cognitive behavioral therapy, to manipulate women through verbal ticks, pauses, body language … spinning hypnotist wheels pulled from a back pocket (which probably doubles as “peacocking gear”).
But why not use psychology to understand yourself? Facing why you are scared of hitting on women, analyzing why your relationships have failed, and engaging in some self-work is going to be more help with women than any hack.
Rejection is scary—we all want to be accepted. The fear of hitting on people is a shared human experience. What’s also shared is that none of us are perfect at it. At times, we are all going to mess up, say something stupid (You’re hot!), and blow an opportunity (whether real or imagined).
Pickup artistry might temporarily mask your insecurity, but it won’t address it in any meaningful way. Real confidence comes from accepting and loving yourself, not manipulating others’ insecurities.
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Rachel Rabbit White is a journalist and blogger whose beat is sex, gender, and relationships. Don’t tell anyone, but she once made out with someone who was on Mystery’s reality TV show: The Pick-up Artist. Follow her on twitter for more strange confessions.
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—Photo State Library of New South Wales/Flickr
About Rachel Rabbit White
I’ve noticed that when women try to discuss PUA, a lot of guys respond by saying women don’t understand PUA and have it all wrong. But no one ever really explains what is is really about in that case. I’m willing to listen if anyone wants to educate me.
This is my impression (again, if I’m wrong, tell me why) — I’ve read a lot of PUA literature, and it seems like it has some useful information about social skills and self-improvement combined with a lot of stuff that seems fake, manipulative, and even downright scary. I suppose the thing that bothers me the most is that I would potentially feel safe, comfortable, connected, turned on and all that good stuff the PUA gurus talk about, hop in bed with someone thinking I’ve met a great guy with some potential for an extended relationship (not necessarily a LTR but something more than a one night stand) then find out it was all a ruse. The thought of having sex with some PUA dude who is going to write up the experience in a “lay report” and decide where I fell on the HB scale just frankly horrifies me. I don’t want to be used by some slick player for his own gratification like a sex toy or cheap accessory. Honestly, after reading the Love Systems website, I felt incredibly sad and depressed.
I think that’s why women have an urge to try to give what we think is better advice so guys do not get sucked into the black hole of PUA thinking, which yes in some ways is very disturbing. Yet you say all our advice is crap. What advice can we give then? What do you really want to know from us?
The stuff in this and Amanda’s article is the stuff that has worked for me. I think it scares a lot of guys away because it’s harder to be honest and vulnerable. Taking a long hard look at yourself sucks, because there’s so much you don’t want to see. The payoff can be big though.
Sarah i understand yr concern about being duped. However a naturally ‘interesting and fun’ guy can use his charms to find an ltr, OR to use a woman. The men currently using women are mostly natural charmers ,NOT men whove learnt pua skills
A natural charmer can use his skills for good or ill. A man who has learnt how to charm by pua, can use his skills for good or ill
That’s true, and most women learn to be suspicious of male motivations for that reason. You are always hoping to pick out the guy who really cares from among all the guys who are just pretending and really just want to get into your pants. The thing with PUA’s is that they seem to have made a science out of emotional manipulation, which I suppose is not that surprising since that’s what advertisers do every day on T.V. to get us to buy their crap. So it was probably only a matter of time before someone realized they could apply the principles of advertising and sales to sexual relationships. And no I will not disagree that there are women who are manipulative users as well. It’s a reflection of our culture, but not a positive one, in my view.
The problem is that none of the advice given actually works. PUA stuff WORKS and that’s what is important.
Sarah,
When you say you want to give men “better” advice, what is your actual goal in giving that advice? Do you actually want to help men be successful in meeting women(for casual sex, long term relationship, whatever), or are you simply preaching at men to do what would be most convenient for you?
Acctually I think a lot of female feminists would support you in this. A society where a woman was just as free to walk up to a man, try to initiate a sexual contact, and if declined move on. No hard feeling, no risk of personal harm, same as a man should be able to do without any shame or risk of harm. No manipulation.
Mark, I have to ask you, would you prefer it if women wore no make up? Baggy clothes? Would that be more honest?
Men can tell if a women is wearing makeup and a push up bra. It’s not exactly deceptive. Or do guys feel enormous disappointment when they discover that their girlfriend isn’t as pretty first thing in the morning before she spackles over her face? Like they thought her eyelids were really colored blue or something? Is it deceptive to wear a suit to a job interview so you look professional? Is it deceptive to brush your teeth? I mean, maybe it would be more honest to have bad breath rather than giving people the wrong idea that your mouth is naturally minty.
You keep saying that women have done this for millions of years. If so, why are you so outraged at women? Aren’t we just doing what we are designed to do? If so aren’t men designed to respond? Why don’t men stop rewarding women for being beautiful, and start rewarding women for good character and personality, and all this would stop.
Oh, but men can’t help what they are attracted to.
“You keep saying that women have done this for millions of years. If so, why are you so outraged at women? Aren’t we just doing what we are designed to do? If so aren’t men designed to respond? Why don’t men stop rewarding women for being beautiful, and start rewarding women for good character and personality, and all this would stop.”
This is a question I have wondered about for a long time. Why do women get away with really shitty behavior just for being good looking? Same question I have wondered about why Charlie Sheen manages to find wife #4 and #5.
Oh, but men can’t help what they are attracted to.
Isn’t this typical feminist argument? Female preference can not be questioned.
Women who use their beauty to get what they want from men do it because it works — men fall for it.
Men who use PUA tactics to get what they want from women do it because it works — women fall for it.
You can choose to view this as purely biologically driven by millions of years of evolution, in which case neither men or women can be expected to change. Women can’t change their attraction to men as providers/accumulators any more than men can change their attraction to young beautiful women. No point even complaining about it really.
I’m playing devils advocate because actually I view attraction as a complex mixture of biology, culture, and individual psychology.
However, I do what to point out that it is hypocritical to criticize women for their choices if you are not willing to look at the role that male choice plays in molding female character. I had a roommate in college who was extremely attractive (model, former beauty queen) and she was a complete psycho, but guys would do anything to spend 5 minutes with her. She dated on guy for 3 weeks and he bought her a car. Then she dumped him 2 weeks later and refused to give the car back. She couldn’t have gotten away with that kind of despicable behavior if guys didn’t allow it to happen. It got so I even tried to warn guys to stay away from her her. She was doing coke and cheating on 3 different boyfriends at the same time. Guys wouldn’t listen to me, they’d ask me for tips on how to get her to notice them.
So, again, women have sexual power because men give them power. Stop spending all your energy on women who aren’t worth it and you may find that women are actually much nicer people than you believed. (not saying you must date women you aren’t attracted to but there are attractive women who are not totally focused on status and money; however you may not find them in meat market type clubs)
And if anyone brings up Charlie Sheen again I’m just going to laugh. Charlie Sheen is a train wreck and totally unattractive. I realize some women still chase after him. There are many stupid people of both genders.
Sarah – I, a loner,( gone from this game for years so you have nothing to worry about from me) just
wonder why women treat men as they do and then wonder why all these guys end up at PUA schools, going through the different scripts. And you are wondering about this?
I have no obligation to provide men with casual sex if I prefer to have sex only in the context of a relationship. personally, I need to feel emotionally attached to a man before I want to share the intimate side of my physical and emotional self with him. That’s just me, obviously there are women who have no problem with random hookups and more power to them. That’s not my scene however. I am not asking for “payment” in the form of a relationship. I am simply not interested otherwise, just as a man wouldn’t be interested if he doesn’t find a woman physically attractive. I’m not using a man, actually it’s the opposite. I want a relationship where both he and I get our needs met emotionally, physically and spiritually. A healthy relationship involves a desire to give as well as a desire to get one’s own needs met. “Using” means only caring about your own needs and seeing the other person as merely a vehicle for self-gratification. If you don’t believe that relationships based on mutual giving are possible then you are very cynical and nothing I say can probably convince you otherwise.
If a man intentionally leads me to believe that he is willing to meet my emotional needs, knowing full well he isn’t going to, yes I would consider that being used. If I make it clear to a man up front that I am not interested in casual NSA sex, then I am not deceiving him in any way. If he lies to me about what he really wants, then he has deceived me.
I’m not sure if by your definition there are any relationships that are not “commodified”. If I want a man to care about my physical needs only, I.e. to make sure that the sexual experience is enjoyable, is that also “commodifying” the relationship?
You seem to be saying that women should just be willing to have sex with any man who asks without expecting ANYTHING in return, not even intangibles like “having a good time” because it’s physically and emotionally rewarding. That’s ludicrous.
Clarification, I meant to type “even if I only want a man to care about my physical needs” (as opposed to emotional needs).
Mark, I said in my original post that if I don’t understand PUA, then I am interested in being educated. Every time women try to discuss the PUA movement, the response is “women just don’t understand what PUA is really about.” Okay, so what IS it about then? Lacking any other information, all I can do is go by the PUA literature, books and blogs that I have read. And yes, a lot of it does seem to be about how to bang the hottest women possible, preferably with no strings attached, by any means necessary — including emotional manipulation and deceit. There is an attitude in many PUA materials that comes across as very hostile and angry toward women, as though women are punishing men by unfairly withholding sweet juicy sex, and therefore tricking women with PUA tactics is a way for men to get even with women. Which is not a healthy attitude toward sex and relationships IMHO.
It’s true, I have come across articles that discuss PUA skills in the context of finding meaningful relationships, but that seems to be a small fraction of what’s out there. And, let me be clear, I’m not opposed to casual hookups or getting laid with no strings attached if that’s what people want to do, but I am opposed to deceitfulness. Also, let me be clear again, I think there are positive aspects of PUA training insofar as it teaches socially awkward guys to have more confidence and better social skills. However, I do have a huge problem with the “pump and dump,” “she deserves it” mentality which is sadly evident on some of the most popular PUA blogs.
So, again, if I don’t “get it” why don’t you enlighten me instead of just resorting to accusations that I must have “issues.” If you have nothing useful to say on this topic then there is no point discussing it further.
Sarah, it’s 3:00 in the morning, and I’m freaking tired, and let’s just be honest here, you’ve written like 8 pages of comments here and I’m not going to read them all before I pass out. But you really seem like you have your head screwed on straight, and I like your take on gender relations/politics. I’m also really well versed in the so-called “pua” scene (Jesus H that term makes me cringe) and I’d be absolutely thrilled to explain the whole shebang to you, at your leisure; Here or a venue of your choice. Hit me up, captainawesome(at)bellsouth.net
So you’re telling me that if a famous actor that you have an amazing crush on came onto you, you wouldn’t have sex with him without being in a serious committed relationship with him.
No, I wouldn’t. I have met guys I was very attracted to and could have had sex but didn’t. It’s called self control.
Why would I forego having sex with someone I’m attracted to? There are dozens of possible reasons why I would not hop into bed with a guy every time opportunity knocks. If I did do that, I’m sure you’d come up with some very nice words for me. One of the rhymes with “but”. However, that’s not the only reason. This may surprise you, but not every is obessessed with having the maximum possible amount of sex. The world is full of many other interesting and amazing things.
“Oh those shoes look comfortable.” That’s actually a great line. At first I read it like he was making a joke about wanting to wear your shoes or buy some like them
. Then I realized that the honesty involved is pretty good; how many women would just respond “These shoes ARE KILLING ME!”?
I apologize for the disjointed comments above, but all of “Mark’s” comments appear to have been deleted by the moderators, so now my side of the argument doesn’t make a while lot of sense.
How is this helping shy guys?
All it talks about is how a woman tries to get one up on pickup artists.
“3) find some real self-confidence, kid.” While we’re on the subject of derogatory here, I would suggest NOT calling a man kid or boy or such. It’s talk like this that gives me social anxiety towards women. A moment that really sticks out for me in in high school, I was about 14 or so, and girls would refer to some of my classmates as guys but me as kid. It stung. Since then, I’ve always felt that calling someone “kid” is a way of saying you think you’re better than them. I’ve also heard this from other guys when they call losing their virginity “becoming a man”, so reading the word kid after some positive advice in an article that presents itself as for someone in my situation, made me have to stop reading for a bit. Other than that, I enjoyed this article and will definitely follow its advice
All you girls giving advice, be it the author of this article, women in the comments section, or anywhere else on the internet, there is a very specific term for you in the PU community – it’s called Keyboard Jockey. In simpler words, people who just talk/post on the internet but never take any action.
If you are so confident that your advice works, take on the following challenge. Find a guy in your area/city in his 20s who has very little to zero experience with women (You will be surprised how many of them are out there, who are very normal). Take him from that and guide him to becoming a man who feels confident around women and is able to find a reasonable girl who he loves, and who loves him back.
Accomplish this task in a reasonable amount of time (as defined by you) and without him having to spend an unreasonable amount of money (as defined by him).
If all you girls put together (all over the internet) can achieve this transformation with 10 guys and write about it, the PUA industry will shut down. Do not cheat and start giving PUA advice to these guys to use ‘negs’/'opinion openers’/other PUA stuff. Use your own brand of ‘Be yourself’,'Just say hi’,'connect with her’,'treat her like a human being’,'talk about things which you care about’ etc. and see what you can accomplish.
If you are able to achieve this, let me know and I promise to advertise it enough that guys will listen to this brand of advice and not the PUA stuff. But till then, to use another PU acronym – STFU (Shut the f*** up)
I don’t take dating advice from woman because 9 times out of 10, she’s telling you what she WANTS to be true and not what IS true.
Amanda’s maxim about going after woman in your league is exactly the type of advice that has men laughing at woman’s advice.
A shy guy might as well give up if he’s thinking about taking that advice.
Anything that doesn’t come naturally from yourself can be seen as a pickup tactic.
A friend telling you to go say “Hi” isn’t any different then a PUA telling you to go say “Hey ma what’s up”.
These PUA not only help men improve their interactions with woman but their life too.
It’s basically “fake it till you make it”.
A few things bother me about woman-to-man dating advice, in a general sense. Hopefully my criticisms are constructive enough, though they are much more basic than either feminism or what I would call PUA pop-Darwinism. I would say they have more to do with mutuality:
1) As much as I might identify with some of the advice given here, it is hard for me to take that advice seriously until the advice-giver has tried it herself. And, unfortunately, a lot of women`s standards for what constitutes a pick up are, in my experience, very low. Until you can actually initiate and lead a conversation, plan and pay for a date, and initiate physical contact, which is what men are supposed to do…to my mind, you haven`t picked up anybody. I have talked to women who think they`ve “picked up” a guy by simply looking back or responding to his questions…so, it seems to me we would have to apply the same standards across genders for the same terminology;
2) Something else that I hear, mostly in implicit undertones, which I believe to be a fallacy is that women are somehow entitled not to feel uncomfortable. Guess what? This might not be such a no-brainer. As politically-correct as the idea of verbal consent might be, I would hazard to say that it is a slippery-slope. Where is the line in the sand? Should I ask for consent before offering my hand for a handshake in fear that someone is a germophobe? Even in the context of relationships, should I ask whether or not to kiss someone before doing it every time? To my mind, verbal consent is painfully utopian, and I would venture to guess that many of the women who claim to support it would be turned off by it as a demonstration of lack of confidence in real-life situations. It seems to me, in any interaction that has the potential to escalate, someone initiates. And if the other is bothered by it, you back off. No one dies from an awkward moment, or even catches leprosy. If a woman feels uncomfortable by a man`s approach, why can`t she take responsibility for her own feelings and defend her boundaries like the guy she is rejecting (who certainly feels no less emotional distress)?
3) A lot of generalized women-to-men advice sounds to me self-serving. If give advice one must, I would make sure that: a) it is wanted; and, b) that, most importantly, it reflects the receiver`s self-described interests. A lot of the advice I`ve heard from women are obviously geared toward dating and commitment…yet, a lot of men see both those things as obstacles to be overcome. And, it is not beyond all probability that PUA advice works more apt to help the guy who`s trying to get blond, teenage twins in his jaccuzzi tonight, than feminist advice. Though, feminist advice may work better for what a lot of what women want or claim to want. So, when a woman says “get some real confidence, kid”, as much as I might try not to, I hear “bring confidence I myself don`t have to this interaction.” Since, what is the difference between a guy who is adorably shy and another who`s lacking confidence other than the fact that you don`t like him from the start? And, when I hear, “don`t approach randomly”, I hear “Don`t approach me randomly unless I am attracted to you.”
Anyway, these are my two cents. I do wish to commend Rachel for her thoughtful debates, in spite of my criticisms. I am a fan, if a shy one.