Following Clarisse Thorn and Amanda Marcotte, Rachel Rabbit White offers more pickup advice for guys.
Hitting on people can be hard, so I can empathize with guys who feel they need to use pickup tactics to meet women—sort of. (Maybe you’ve heard of “negs?” I once had a guy come up to me and say: “Oh those shoes look comfortable.” I turned around and hobbled away.) Aside from being just groan-worthy, seduction-community tactics are ethically and practically problematic and often, plainly, sexist. But the PUA approach is tempting for guys who have social anxiety—and a resulting awkwardness—around women. I understand that the fear of rejection can be paralyzing.
On this site, Clarisse Thorn recently offered ethical dating advice for men who might otherwise be lured by pickup artistry. Amanda Marcotte responded with a smart, useful article which can be boiled down to three essential maxims: 1) women are your sexual equals, 2) go after women who are in your league (with whom you have common interests), and 3) find some real self-confidence, kid.
These are necessary starting points. But I want to get specific about the actual pickups themselves, because I’ve been a victim of poorly executed pickups, as have most girls I know. There is nothing wrong with picking someone up in a bar, but you can do it with integrity—and without a furry hat.
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The Approach:
When I was single and going out to “unz unz” nightclubs, I didn’t hook up with guys who approached me. The approach throws me out of my comfort zone. Here’s why: women get this shit all the time. We get it waiting for the bus at 7 a.m., carrying our groceries home, hobbling in heels: unwanted howls, name-calls, and come-ons. Sudden strange attention throws us into an scary, uncomfortable space we’re all too familiar with—and want out of. This is why my advice to guys is don’t approach randomly. Try letting women come to you.
Looking back on my $13 martini days, I did hook up with a lot of guys I approached. I chose guys who made friendly eye contact with me, who smiled, who struck up a conversation when we were near each other and unoccupied.
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The Opener:
You’ve experienced a pickup if you’ve heard things like, “Hey, what’s this from: ‘Nobody puts Baby in a corner’?” or “You look like trouble.” To which, four years ago, I would be like, “No, I’m ‘&Hearts’; ‘Trouble’ is Katie’s MySpace name. I think she’s here, though.”
But I get it—opening conversations can be tough. So here is my secret tip: smile and say hi.
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The Conversation:
It can be hard keeping a conversation going. My recommendation is to be in the moment—be spontaneous, not rehearsed. And be real—true to yourself and the things you care about.
After “Hi,” try some personal insight—it doesn’t have to be worked out all the way. Open with how strange life is instead of how weird the weather has been. The best conversations aren’t ones where you talk about movies and TV and books and music, but about your ideas and feelings in the moment—about what it’s like to experience this odd life. It’s about getting at the human experience. It’s about sparking empathy as well as interesting conversation. Finding yourself in one of these conversations feels like suddenly finding yourself stranded on an island with this person.
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The Consent
Back in those nightclubs, it wasn’t rare that I’d find my Long Island–swilling wing-lady trapped. There she would be, cornered, clearly uncomfortable, as she recited “312-728 …” to some creep with his cellphone out.
Often, women can’t say no to giving out the number when asked. Most of us are brought up from an early age to be cordial and accommodating. This is why my own cellphone is filled with multiple contacts named “Do Not Answer.”
So? Pay attention. Is she enthusiastic about talking to you? Is she warm toward you? Engaging you further? If not, don’t keep on her—or ask for her number, for chrissake! And because, apparently, it needs to be said: if you continually send a woman messages online or via text and she doesn’t respond—back off. Being relentless may work in the movies, but in the real world it’s called harassment.
Clarisse shared a particularly dark ploy of pickup when it comes to sex: the freeze out. It’s where a girl says she doesn’t want to go any further and the PUA relies on passive aggressiveness—instead of the less fancy aggressive aggressiveness—to pressure her. If they are in bed, he will turn away, check his phone, blow out the candles. Again, women are conditioned to keep the peace, to keep others from being angry at us. We are taught that what we have to offer socially is our looks, our sexuality. For this reason, it becomes easy for her to cave when the guy pulls away emotionally. Guys, do you really want to have sex with someone who doesn’t want to have sex with you?
If you’re hooking up, know it is partly your responsibility as a sex partner to gauge how connected and enthusiastic the other half seems, and communicate. (This becomes necessary, for example, if your partner is drunk.)
You’ll have sex when the girl wants to have sex with you too—it’s a partnered dance. Prepare for the possibility that it might take more than one night (sorry). Gauge your partner’s enthusiasm and participation level; great sex comes when both partners are communicating and on the same page.
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Understanding Women? Understand Yourself
PUAs use neuro-linguistic programming tactics, a part of cognitive behavioral therapy, to manipulate women through verbal ticks, pauses, body language … spinning hypnotist wheels pulled from a back pocket (which probably doubles as “peacocking gear”).
But why not use psychology to understand yourself? Facing why you are scared of hitting on women, analyzing why your relationships have failed, and engaging in some self-work is going to be more help with women than any hack.
Rejection is scary—we all want to be accepted. The fear of hitting on people is a shared human experience. What’s also shared is that none of us are perfect at it. At times, we are all going to mess up, say something stupid (You’re hot!), and blow an opportunity (whether real or imagined).
Pickup artistry might temporarily mask your insecurity, but it won’t address it in any meaningful way. Real confidence comes from accepting and loving yourself, not manipulating others’ insecurities.
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Rachel Rabbit White is a journalist and blogger whose beat is sex, gender, and relationships. Don’t tell anyone, but she once made out with someone who was on Mystery’s reality TV show: The Pick-up Artist. Follow her on twitter for more strange confessions.
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—Photo State Library of New South Wales/Flickr
About Rachel Rabbit White
The Approach section is, well…useless. Guys who have women coming up to them do not need advice on how to pick up women. If you have women approaching you, you’re all set. But speaking as a former single guy who was not great looking and never did well at the club scene because I was shy and hated dancing, I can count on one hand the number of times a woman approached me. If I followed your advice and waited for signs of interest from a woman, I’d still be alone at the bar.
And sorry, but if I started talking to a random girl about “experiencing this odd life,” she’d look at me like I was friggin crazy. I don’t think it’s a bad idea to have a few topics of conversation up your sleeve. Sometimes that’s enough to get the ball rolling to the point you can get to a place where the conversation isn’t as forced.
I personally think “real confidence” comes however it comes. If you engage in “peacocking” or other PUA stuff and have some success, maybe that experience builds your confidence. So what if took tricks to make it happen? If you’re feeling more confident, then that is real and tangible.
Does anyone else think it’s slightly amusing that the GMP has now had three articles telling men how to effectively pick up women, and they’ve all been written by women? Wouldn’t it be interesting (and frankly more useful) to have some men come in and give advice on picking up women in an “ethical” manner? I think so.
Does anyone else think it’s slightly amusing that the GMP has now had three articles telling men how to effectively pick up women, and they’ve all been written by women? Wouldn’t it be interesting (and frankly more useful) to have some men come in and give advice on picking up women in an “ethical” manner? I think so.
While I can understand hearing from women themselves on this I get your point. I wonder if it would be worth trying to recruit someone to do just that….
Daddy Files.
One presumes women know what they like and don’t like, and thus what they think they’d welcome and what would cause them to reject you.
Couple of problems: One is the “Bradley effect”, referring to elections where people say what they think they should say if they intend to vote in a way that seems to be viewed negatively by society. For example, somebody who disliked Obama’s campaign might, to avoid seeming like a racist, have answered a poll question that he was going to vote for Obama.
It would be interesting to know if there are pickup lines or tactics which women would say in public are awful but which they think might be interesting or, even, have actually welcomed.
Pickup tactics from men would tell you which ones actually work, presuming the guy has a clue and isn’t BSing about his success. Big presumption.
As I have said before, going back more than forty years, working with women in circumstances which are not social but have other purposes–employment, campus projects, other activities–and not chasing them seemed to trigger half a dozen women–that I can remember–trying to get my attention. Not that I noticed at the time. I suppose that, not being concerned about the success or the tension of the approach allowed my real self to be more apparent. Not that my real self was a barn-burner. Perhaps the lack of approach tension–she eventually figures out she doesn’t have to be on the alert, pro or con–was so unusual that even I looked good.
No, one can only suppose that an individual woman only knows what she herself likes and dislikes. She may or may not have any insight as to what other women like or dislike.
Your forty years experience, Richard Aubrey, meeting women through various activities and not chasing them may not have any bearing on other guys’ lives. The guy who works a 40 hour week in a feed
mill somewhere may not have any choice but to approach women where he finds them, regardless of “approach tension”. Those are the guys who need some effective advice but get either PUA stuff, or the kind of well meant but worthless “advice” by women who have never been in those guys’ situation, and really can’t understand it.
I understand the criticism that women really don’t know how to give good “pick up” advice. Maybe that’s because most women don’t like the idea of being “picked up”. I mean, no one wants to wake up in the morning and think, “Hmm, I just let a guy use me for sex. Nice.”
Personally, I like to believe that there are actually men out there who want to get to know me as a person, and who see sex as an extension of a deeper emotional connection. What disturbs me about the PUA “movement” is the idea that there is a whole group of men out there dedicated to using women, and, by extension, using me (I can’t help but personalize this), for sex. And how do they do it? Play on my insecurities. Mess with my mind. Pretend to be interested in what I’m saying. Do little things to make me believe we have an emotional connection. But be sure you have an exit strategy so the next day, I won’t make the mistake of thinking you actually cared. Because you don’t. Ugh.
So if asked to explain, as a woman, what tricks or techniques would entice me to have a casual one-night stand with a random guy, I have to say, nothing. I did have a couple of casual encounters with guys in college, but the only common denominator is that I was drunk. On the other hand, if you want to know what might get me interested in getting to know a guy better (which might lead to sex down the road), how about trying to have a genuine conversation? That would be a nice place to start. I’m sorry if that’s too vague but, honestly, so many guys just can’t carry their end of a conversation. Improving conversational skills doesn’t require fancy PUA tricks, it just requires practice and some sensitivity to social cues, like knowing when the other person is bored or uncomfortable. To the extent PUA “training” improves shy guys’ social skills then I have no problem with it, but I fear that too many guys are wasting their money thinking that a $1200 PUA seminar will teach them how to use mind control or brainwash women into tearing off their panties. That just won’t happen.
Finally, and I don’t want to get too sidetracked on this point, but I am really bothered by the excessive emphasis on women’s physical appearance in PUA literature. I’m not arguing that men are obligated to be attracted to women they aren’t attracted to, but please, there are plenty of women out there who are perfectly attractive yet not “hot babes” who could potentially be fun, exciting women to spend time with. From reading PUA materials, you could get the idea that the only women who exist are under age 25 and inhabit nightclubs and shopping malls. However there are many other women out there who might actually be easier to talk to and less likely to reject a guy who is shy or socially awkward. Reading PUA literature, the entire focus is on banging young, hyper-attractive, superficial women who come across in PUA examples as really bitchy and mean. Well, yeah. Why not expand your horizons a little? That’s doesn’t mean “lowering your standards.” It means understanding what kind of woman you are most likely to connect with, and then going after those women, rather than women who you have absolutely nothing in common with.
HB (hot babe) is used to refer to ANY women…it might be stated as “HB 3.5″ as in an unattractive woman…I know, a contradiction of “hot babe”, but hats how its used!! Also, not defending them here, but many of these seminars work EXACTLY in the way that you promise they don’t ….”magically” getting women into frenzies and sexual willingness. Most people who use any ability superficially were probably superficial before said ability. I agree that not being superficial will do more for ones happiness then any one ability. But to deny the ability for guys to use science to get, frankly, RIDICULOUSLY successful with women is simply ignorant. As for the importance of physical appearance, its unfortunate in a way for sure, but the fact of the matter is that men’s attraction to women, regardless of culture or socialization, is primarily visual. Sure, a total nut-job can kill that attraction, or more specifically, willingness to bother, and a funny, together girl without good looks can make up for it; but the PUAs aren’t making a POINT of accentuating this fact.
“What disturbs me about the PUA “movement” is the idea that there is a whole group of men out there dedicated to using women, and, by extension, using me (I can’t help but personalize this), for sex.”
From what you read I can see why you are thinking this. However, I assure you it is way more shy and insecure guys that really want a girlfriend or some female companionship then it is fuzzy hat wearing guys negging and dhving so you will like them.
Most of what is taught aren’t these manipulative tricks or techniques but that is what is enraging and interesting to read about so that is what you hear about.
The thing about young hot girls, well I can’t really argue with that. You like what you like.
“I understand the criticism that women really don’t know how to give good “pick up” advice. Maybe that’s because most women don’t like the idea of being “picked up”. I mean, no one wants to wake up in the morning and think, “Hmm, I just let a guy use me for sex. Nice.”
Women don’t seem to mind casual sex as long as the casual sex partner is good looking enough and has high enough status. If you want further evidence of this, try looking into some of the very prominent male feminists’ sexual history. Specifically a prominent contributor to this site.
“Personally, I like to believe that there are actually men out there who want to get to know me as a person, and who see sex as an extension of a deeper emotional connection.”
I really like to think the same of women, but I have lost that faith after wading through feminist page after feminist page of sex advice adopting the ‘never have to settle’ policy for women, how women have the right to any kind of preference they want and yet at the same time complain that not every man views BBWs as the hottest thing there is.
“What disturbs me about the PUA “movement” is the idea that there is a whole group of men out there dedicated to using women, and, by extension, using me (I can’t help but personalize this), for sex. And how do they do it? Play on my insecurities. Mess with my mind. Pretend to be interested in what I’m saying. Do little things to make me believe we have an emotional connection. But be sure you have an exit strategy so the next day, I won’t make the mistake of thinking you actually cared. Because you don’t. Ugh.”
The meat market is as close to the ideal unregulated free market as we will get in this day and age. PUA is a solution to a problem that a lot of men face. I would say given that the meat market is ruled exclusively by the rules of evolve-or-die there is a very simple way to solve this despicable behavior. Don’t open your legs for men practicing it. As soon as that type of behavior fails it will cease.
“So if asked to explain, as a woman, what tricks or techniques would entice me to have a casual one-night stand with a random guy, I have to say, nothing. I did have a couple of casual encounters with guys in college, but the only common denominator is that I was drunk. On the other hand, if you want to know what might get me interested in getting to know a guy better (which might lead to sex down the road), how about trying to have a genuine conversation?”
Sorry tried that. Could talk for hours and hours, and then view as woman dispersed with drunken gorilla who apparently thought the height of intellectual refinement was to tell jokes about fat people.
“That would be a nice place to start. I’m sorry if that’s too vague but, honestly, so many guys just can’t carry their end of a conversation. Improving conversational skills doesn’t require fancy PUA tricks, it just requires practice and some sensitivity to social cues, like knowing when the other person is bored or uncomfortable. To the extent PUA “training” improves shy guys’ social skills then I have no problem with it, but I fear that too many guys are wasting their money thinking that a $1200 PUA seminar will teach them how to use mind control or brainwash women into tearing off their panties. That just won’t happen.”
See previous comment. The moment PUA tactics stop working, PUA tactics will cease to exist. That’s the rules of the real world.
“Finally, and I don’t want to get too sidetracked on this point, but I am really bothered by the excessive emphasis on women’s physical appearance in PUA literature. I’m not arguing that men are obligated to be attracted to women they aren’t attracted to, but please, there are plenty of women out there who are perfectly attractive yet not “hot babes” who could potentially be fun, exciting women to spend time with. From reading PUA materials, you could get the idea that the only women who exist are under age 25 and inhabit nightclubs and shopping malls.”
Sorry, but as long as women without super model looks still make the same demands that women with super model looks make, why should I settle for less. If it is the same amount of work both ways, I fail to see why I should go for bronze instead of going for platinum.
“However there are many other women out there who might actually be easier to talk to and less likely to reject a guy who is shy or socially awkward.”
Yes, easier to talk to. Yet the very same women will reject you just as brutally when it comes to sexuality.
“Reading PUA literature, the entire focus is on banging young, hyper-attractive, superficial women who come across in PUA examples as really bitchy and mean. Well, yeah. Why not expand your horizons a little?”
See above comment. If even plain Jane demands super model looks, why should I not go for super model look myself?
“That’s doesn’t mean “lowering your standards.” It means understanding what kind of woman you are most likely to connect with, and then going after those women, rather than women who you have absolutely nothing in common with.”
Sorry but when even videogame fan-fic girl thinks that drunk baboon whose height of intellectual refinement is regaling yet another episode of his drunken adventures of physical pain is the definition of hotness, then your entire premise is without merit.
And I also like the author’s statements. It is not like I haven’t heard this before from a thousand feminist sources. ‘You are single and can’t score because you deserve not to. Stop being worthless and you will score”.
You seem very angry. I can’t speak to your personal experiences with women, but for my part, I am a fairly geeky “nerd girl” who enjoys sci-fi and video games, and I have never liked stupid alpha male frat boy types nor have I ever gone home with one. I mentioned a couple of drunken hookups in college — one of those was with a computer programmer, another with a fairly average looking non-studly guy in my circle of friends. My current boyfriend is a software engineer who is pretty awkward with women. So it is simply not true that “all” women are chasing after hot studly alpha male jerks.
Yes there are women who are incredibly superficial and stupid about men. They are often the women who are excessively focused on their appearance, clothes, accessories, partying and being seen. They will go after high status guys (whatever that means) because they see men as an accessory that enhances their own status. If you are looking for women in venues where those types of women congregate, that’s what you will find.
To the extent PUA techniques work I believe it is because they improve social skills. Women want to be with guys who are interesting and fun. Why shouldn’t they? Unfortunately, a guy who is nervous and awkward is going to make women feel nervous and awkward and that leads to rejection. That’s true in all social contexts not just “the meat market.” Anything a guy can do to improve his social skills. is going to improve his success wi women.
“You seem very angry. I can’t speak to your personal experiences with women, but for my part, I am a fairly geeky “nerd girl” who enjoys sci-fi and video games, and I have never liked stupid alpha male frat boy types nor have I ever gone home with one. I mentioned a couple of drunken hookups in college — one of those was with a computer programmer, another with a fairly average looking non-studly guy in my circle of friends. My current boyfriend is a software engineer who is pretty awkward with women. So it is simply not true that “all” women are chasing after hot studly alpha male jerks. ”
For all I care women can date whomever they please. What gets my gears grinding are women first screaming about their right to lust after any kind of man they so please, and after that complaining when men aren’t attracted to obese women. My gears would be much better lubricated if we could have some kind of honesty and consistent definition in this, i.e. either fight tooth and nail for you own right to have as shallow preferences as you so desire, but then be just as vocal when it comes to other peoples’ right to be as shallow as they so desire. That is, don’t at 25 holler about how you have the right to be picky and then at 45 start shouting about how older women are seen as unattractive.
“Yes there are women who are incredibly superficial and stupid about men. They are often the women who are excessively focused on their appearance, clothes, accessories, partying and being seen. They will go after high status guys (whatever that means) because they see men as an accessory that enhances their own status. If you are looking for women in venues where those types of women congregate, that’s what you will find. ”
I don’t look for women anymore, it’s just not worth the mental effort to get brutally and constantly rejected. What I will keep fighting is the feminist notion that unregulated market economy is the optimal way to handle distribution in the meat market, but in all other markets it is inferior. Why is that? If ruthless competition is the optimal solution it should be so in all markets.
SImiliar to the caste system that all feminist dating advicers seem to be subscribing to. That dating success is directly correlated to one’s karma. If one fails, that is because one has been a hideous person and thus deserves to fail. This is a view that is never espoused in other fields, why is that so?
Lets examine what you just said about fat women.
You said you don’t like them/won’t go for them.
Then you turned around and said….”That dating success is directly correlated to one’s karma. If one fails, that is because one has been a hideous person and thus deserves to fail.”
It’s the FWs own fault for not getting my attention.
So you’re saying… its ok for me to down on FWs but I should not be held to the same standard. I should be given the benefit of the doubt.
If you are an ugly dude, a fat dude, an awkward dude, a broke dude you = the fat chick. She is your equal.
You don’t ‘deserve’ anything.
Yes, it is a marketplace. And you will keep forking over $2,000 to these PUAs seminar after seminar ’til like Sodini you go nuts b/c you’re trying to force something else outta nature.
See, you literally gave up b/c you realize even PUA techiniques weren’t landing you the ladies.
PUA seminars should have warnings like WeightWatchers ‘results not typical’.
“Lets examine what you just said about fat women.
You said you don’t like them/won’t go for them.”
No I did not. What I said was that feminist women can’t have it both ways. They can not first fight tooth and nail for their right to have any preference what so ever, and then after complain that fat women are not seen as attractive. This has nothing to do with my personal preferences.
“Then you turned around and said….”That dating success is directly correlated to one’s karma. If one fails, that is because one has been a hideous person and thus deserves to fail.”
It’s the FWs own fault for not getting my attention.
So you’re saying… its ok for me to down on FWs but I should not be held to the same standard. I should be given the benefit of the doubt.”
Once again, no I did not. If you look at the text you replies to, you would see that I claimed that feminist women correlate dating success and karma. Not me.
“Yes, it is a marketplace. And you will keep forking over $2,000 to these PUAs seminar after seminar ’til like Sodini you go nuts b/c you’re trying to force something else outta nature.”
Fine, so something that is agreeable. The meat market is an unregulated market economy, it seem this is also seen as the optimal operating mode. Why is this operating mode not seen as optimal in other fields? Why don’t we see the same logic applied to unemployed people? Why don’t we see the same argument applied to women employed in the public sector?
“See, you literally gave up b/c you realize even PUA techiniques weren’t landing you the ladies.”
I have never in my life attended a PUA seminar. Nor have I ever attempted to use PUA techniques.
“PUA seminars should have warnings like WeightWatchers ‘results not typical’.”
Next time you reply to a text, please make the effort to read it first.
If you have never been to a PUA seminar, what are you doing saying above (in your first post) that PUA is the solution for awkward men?
Or that you can get supermodels with PUA skills… sounds like you’re full of it dude.
“If you have never been to a PUA seminar, what are you doing saying above (in your first post) that PUA is the solution for awkward men?”
Once again, that was not what I said.
“Or that you can get supermodels with PUA skills… sounds like you’re full of it dude.”
Once again, please read the text you are replying to before replying.
“I understand the criticism that women really don’t know how to give good “pick up” advice. Maybe that’s because most women don’t like the idea of being “picked up”. ”
If by that you mean they have no understanding of the basic motivation, that sounds about right.
“I mean, no one wants to wake up in the morning and think, “Hmm, I just let a guy use me for sex. Nice.”
So yes, I was right. No understanding of the motivation. Because that’s not it. That is a parody of it.
But that’s not the real criticism.The real criticism is that they have no experience of picking women up. They have no record of succes to establsih their credentilas.
The only woman I know of that is in a position to offer any useful advice, based on reality-based insights, is Norah Vincent.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/22/books/review/22kamp.html
http://www.amazon.com/Self-Made-Man-Womans-Journey-Manhood/dp/0670034665
I wonder why GMP has failed to get her to post an article here.
I kinda feel like I should say as the author that I am bisexual…and have picked women up. And i don’t use bad lines or ambush them out of nowhere.
Ah but there is a difference between a woman trying to meet women and a man trying to meet women. Perhaps ideally there should not be but if we really want to get down to it we can’t act like the various scenarios are all the same. They aren’t.
That doesn’t mean you have the experience of picking up women *as a man* You, as a fellow woman are seen as “safe” (or at least saf*er*) You do not have to contend with “Schroedinger’s Rapist” assumptions about your character, you don’t have to risk being called a creep just for asking, and finally, you’re not actually *required* to do the asking.
A woman is not treated with skepticism right off the bat when she approaches another woman. That is why the idea of a ‘pivot’ (as a wingwoman or fake gf) was adopted from very early on by the pickup artists.
When they have a wingwoman/gf who is into threesomes, it is almost always the case that they let her do the approaching. If she is just a ‘fake date’, she’s just there so that women see that you are with other women, as a form of social proof (Cialdini).
I even notice this in situations that have nothing to do with pickup or dating. Sometimes I just want to ask for directions, and eventually I just started asking my wife to ask for directions when it was a woman walking by. I got tired at being looked at suspiciously.
What is the motivation for “picking up” then? Don’t tell me I’ve got it wrong without explaining it.
It ranges from just wanting sex to wanting more. Every guy is different. I’d say that for me it was about having more and better choices.
Women just generally don’t have any advice for men on the subject of meeting women, whether a pickup for casual sex, or for any other purpose. Since women always have the privilege of waiting for men to approach them, they will never experience the hard necessity of absolutely having to approach someone, and can never really appreciate a man’s position, socially.
I get the anger you’re tapping into here but thankfully they are not all as dismissive as a lot of them can be and have shown. For example while I do appreciate Clarisse Thorn’s efforts on this (believe she is MUCH more understanding of men in this situation than most feminists are, she deserves a fair chance) its pretty sad that the poster here pretty much ignores all the hatred in Marcotte’s post by trying to call it “Amanda Marcotte responded with a smart, useful article …” (if anything her post was just as much if not more of a sewer than the PUA community that she can’t seem to mention without insulting).
“Guys, do you really want to have sex with someone who doesn’t want to have sex with you?”
Uh, YES. After all that time talking and bringing her home I’d be looking for any kind of pleasure as long as she wanted it, even just a little little bit. It’s frusterating to be let down after getting that far.
“I did hook up with a lot of guys I approached. I chose guys who made friendly eye contact with me, who smiled, who struck up a conversation when we were near each other and unoccupied.”
You chose guys who made your pussy wet.
So guys, just make girls’ pussies wet and you will score with hotties like Ms. Rachel.
Great advice.
Guys I think you’d benefit from this video more than the original article:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBVuAGFcGKY
Remember, you don’t want to be “some creep with his cellphone out” as Ms. Rachel stated.
Just remember-
Be handsome.
Be attractive.
Don’t be unattractive.
How is this any different then what we would tell a female friend of ours?
If your little sister was homely and overweight and was worried about getting a guy… you’d tell her to lose weight and dress cuter.
Ugly guys are ugly. Shit happens. That is their lot in life as with ugly women.
Yes, let us look at that exact situation
http://feministing.com/2009/05/09/ask_professor_foxy_does_my_siz/
Can you please point out where exactly in Dr Foxy’s advice the losing weight and looking into guys more like herself comes?
This is shitty advice. Yeah, she is telling the girl wait until some dude who likes bigger women comes around (might take a long ass time.)
It still doesn’t change my point…
Fat is fat. Ugly is ugly. Awkward is awkward.
“Fat is fat. Ugly is ugly. Awkward is awkward.”
Great, will this be applied equally to men and to women in the future?
Let women come to you… what great advice. Should I also not work and sit around waiting for stacks of money to fall from the sky into my lap?
If women are approaching you, chances are good that you are A) wealthy B) extremely good looking C) Famous or D) any combination of A, B, and C.
While I do appreciate that Rachel has at least attempted to provide some helpful alternatives to the typical PUA methods but she has failed miserably. She has no idea how difficult it is for guys on the lower end of the looks/money/social scale to meet women (even women on their equivalent “level”). I’m 100% sure that the guys Rachel did hook up back in her “$13 martini days”, didn’t look like me.
The super hot guys have their choice. The Average Joe’s are left in the dark. While the average girls can still go out the bar and find someone to hookup with. Don’t believe me? Compare the number M4W and W4M posts on craigslist. PUA is a response this inequality and an attempt to level the playing field.
“(This becomes necessary, for example, if your partner is drunk.)”
No women are absolved from all liability for their decisions when drunk. Women like to call this “rape”
Interesting to see that you are advocating responsibility for women but the fact is that by law women are children.
“I mean, no one wants to wake up in the morning and think, “Hmm, I just let a guy use me for sex. Nice.”
Then comes the “rape” charge : )
Why is it wrong for a woman to be leery of “casual fun sex” with some random dude? Casual sex has a lot of downsides for women. (1) risk of unwanted pregnancy, (2) risk of STD’s, (3) risk of getting into a dangerous situation with a guy who turns out to be a psycho, (4) risk of being labeled a cheap slut, (5) risk of destroying any possibility of a relationship with the guy if he’s someone you really like (because once a guy has put you in the cheap slut category you will never get out of it), and (6) risk of developing feelings for a guy who only views you as a cheap slut.
And BTW, women who are sane know the difference between consensual sex and rape. Yes there are women who make false rape charges, just as there are women who are really victims of rape, let’s not get into a pointless debate about it. The vast majority of women are not going to cry “rape” because of morning after regrets. Every woman I know has at least one regrettable experience but I don’t personally know any woman who has filed rape charges over it.
41%? Really? That’s very specific. Do you have a cite for that?
And yes, casual sex has downsides for men, but for whatever reason, men as a rule seem less concerned about it than women as a rule. For example, men SHOULD be as concerned as women are about the risk of unwanted pregnancy, but in my experience, a lot of men consider it to be the woman’s problem and don’t even bother asking what birth control method she’s using (if any). Condoms have a relatively high failure rate.
What you are saying is that there are reasons to avoid casual sex which is the opposite of your previous point in which you denigrated women for wanting commitment in return for sex.
And yes, casual sex has downsides for men, but for whatever reason, men as a rule seem less concerned about it than women as a rule.
Because we’re socialized not to care but when we do our concern is taken in the worst faith either by having our manhood challenged or being treated like we are trying to control women.
That is You who are not messed up by others telling you what to feel or think. Many weaker women do file “date rape charges that are false. Morning after remorse is ok men get that too but that is not excuse for not admitting that it does occur.
Numbers 4 through 6 Are quire real. Here is a place men can take a better tack by bashing “slut shaming” and vigorously defending a woman’s right to sexual expression. Women too have to fight the others who indulge in slut shaming. Really would not the world be a better place for all when we get rid of these anti sex practices?
#5 why would anyone want a relationship with such a narrow minded bigot? Look a woman needs to be honest about her sexuality. She also has the right to express those feelings.
“What disturbs me about the PUA “movement” is the idea that there is a whole group of men out there dedicated to using women”
Yea, it’s called “sexual liberation” women’s hook up culture is what spawned the PUA and hook up culture. Get used to it. Women are more so sex objects rather than prospects for a date in the mind of many. Personally, I abstain from sex with the Western woman all together. Her vagina is more toxic than tobacco. http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-02-22/entertainment/28639602_1_oral-cancer-hpv-vaccines-cervical-cancer
Tuesday, February 22, 2011
Oral sex could be hazardous to your health.
So say researchers who note that oral cancer stemming from the human papilloma virus is more common in the U.S. than oral cancer caused by abusing tobacco.
Researchers found a 225% increase in oral cancer cases in the U.S. from 1974 to 2007, mainly among white men, said Maura Gillison, a cancer researcher at Ohio State University.
The more oral-sex partners a man had, the greater his cancer risk, Gillison told a meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science.
I cannot help but wonder why it is that you don’t have the ladies flock to you…
a much needed addition to the conversation about being a good man when it comes to sex and relationships, how to pick up a woman from a woman’s perspective. dah…
Tom
Wouldn’t it be interesting if you got someone that teaches game to do an article about game instead of just getting women that don’t really understand game to give their opinions?
Seems game is being misrepresented here, I know a guy has already suggested that but I felt you might be more receptive if it was put to you by a feminist woman, due to your obvious biases and chivalrous nature.
If you people thought that, Tom, you wouldn’t have this parade of straight women posting the articles. What could they know about picking women up?
“”Let women come to you… what great advice. Should I also not work and sit around waiting for stacks of money to fall from the sky into my lap?
If women are approaching you, chances are good that you are A) wealthy B) extremely good looking C) Famous or D) any combination of A, B, and C.”"
Dave. If you’re referring to me, I was not wealthy, nor extremely good-looking, famous, or any combination. I was taller than average and reasonably fit–played smashmouth sports and was in judo and martial arts as a hobby. Other than that, the average college student.
Period.
Which is to say, things are more complicated than you think, or, if they’re not, I didn’t figure them out then or later anyway.
Being tall makes a pretty big difference…
I urge this publication too withdraw its published praise for gender bigot Amanda Marcotte as a mark of respect for the family of Reginald Daye, who was recently murdered by Crystal Mangum.
I have little experience approaching women using pick-up techniques or not. I have very little experience even seeing it happen with other people, so I don’t have a conclusion about whether PUA techniques “work” or not. Just a quasi-scientific question — Have these PUA programs done anything like a controlled experiment comparing using PUA and not using PUA? I can see the possibility of a “confidence placebo” effect like several people have mentioned. It’s also entirely possible that women are hooking up with these men DESPITE their pick-up lines.
If it’s just a testimonial like “I never approached women before, but with PUA skills now I do, and I’ve had great success,” that’s hardly concrete evidence.
I think most of us would agree that desperation does tend to undermine critical thinking skills.
I would also like to see a scientific study of women who slept with guys who used PUA techniques to find out what motivated their decisions, if they enjoyed the experience, felt like they’d been played or regretted it later. There is virtually nothing in PUA literature that I’ve read discussing what the “targets” actually think about what’s going on. PUA literature treats women as robots who respond to stimuli. Do X and she’ll do Y, if she says A then you say B etc. The discussion of “female psychology” in PUA literature emphasizes evolutionary psychology explanations and leaves no space for women as sentient individuals with a personal history, idiosyncratic motivations, and individual agency.
Personally I believe a lot of PUA success is a numbers game. I.e. If a guy learns to approach enough women and avoid certain negative behaviors he will eventually run into a woman who is amenable to casual sex for whatever reason. Maybe she has low self esteem and needs some validation. Maybe she’s liberated and finds hookups empowering. Whatever. It’s not magic.
There has not been a controlled study, as far as I know. There is much anecdotal evidence however.
And, yes, confidence is part of it; that’s old news in PUA circles. Yet, saying you need confidence and leaving it at that is not enough. There is much more that goes on in the mating dance.
I stopped taking Ms. White seriously when I came to this sentence: “Try letting women come to you”. Sorry, passivity doesn’t work for men, as any man who has ever tried it could tell you.
She then goes on to claim that she has “approached” a lot of guys, but admits that she “chose” guys who struck up conversations with her! In other words she “approached” guys who had already made the first move.
Frankly, I don’t think any woman can EVER know what a guy experiences while trying to meet women, and I think it’s a waste of time for these women to offer advice to men on the subject, and it’s definitely a waste of a man’s time to read it for anything other than the entertainment value.
I appreciate the tone of this post, which at least isn’t douchey like that of certain other people. And mostly the advice is good. In regards to the Approach section, though… seriously? I’d love to be proven wrong, but I just don’t think women approach men, as a rule. I don’t. I mean, maybe if you’re really attractive, but otherwise, no.
I’d consider myself maybe a 6 out of 10 based on purely superficial looks, and this seems to be how other people perceive me too. No stud, but remember, I’m still more attractive than over half of men my age. I’ve been explicitly approached and hit by women maybe… six times? At a club. In five years. Granted I’m not partying every night or even every weekend, but the point is, if men sat and waited for women to approach them, there would be a hell of a lot of less romance in the world. Women have shifted that burden onto men, and that’s fine, that’s their collective right. But it’s absurd to attack men for it or to say “oh, if you don’t look like Taylor Lautner, just sit and wait for a miracle”.
Wow, I’ve gotta say how shocked I am that the approach section is throwing everyone off, definitely noted.
What I meant in “don’t randomly approach” is to not ambush these women out of nowhere, to establish eye contact, to stand near/next to. To establish something. The asking me some weird question out of nowhere is what I personally find scary.
But definitely, for me and a lot of my friends, approaching guys worked best. I approached my husband, a nerdy engineer who was wearing a pocket protector. He says he would never have approached me. And I do know that there are women who don’t approach…but maybe they are just as in need of dating advice.
Actually, I am curious while we’ve got feminist ladies giving menz advice what kind of dating advice feminist-friendly dudes would give women? Anyone wanna tackle?
Im not particularly feminist friendly, I’m more on the egalitarian treat women as adults end of the spectrum.
Women already have a fairly well stocked armery of game accessories and tactics and a large media industry based on female game and gating advice, and this publications forays into dating advice are an extension of that female dominated scene. Also, casual sex comes very easy for women, women being the choosers.
I can’t take you seriously when you spell “men” with a z. It’s not a grammatical issue so much that everytime I see that particular spelling I know men’s experiences are being discounted out of hand.
Yeaaaaah, life doesn’t work like that. Women are always going to say “don’t approach” because they’re on the receiving end of ham-fisted approaches every fricken minute of the day. Most men “corner” women with an approach and make them feel terrible and awkward. But as any man with success or even any decent PUA will tell you, the approach is about making her feel as comfortable as possible. You keep your body language open and non threatening, you keep your tone and facial expressions positive, calm(ish) and fun. You make sure to keep the conversation fresh and interesting. And most importantly, if she appears uncomfortable, you back off. I doubt feminists would mind being approached if men could take a hint.
In my experience my “romantic success rate” shot way up when I figured out how to properly approach and converse with women. A lot of that was just a matter of body language literacy. For example, instead of squaring up to a woman and cornering her, you stay at an angle, and talk over your shoulder, making it clear that she can always walk away with ease. A lot of this stuff is new to guys though, since we’re socialized to communicate verbally and bluntly, while women are socialized to read body language. It makes sense, because under patriarchy women are supposed to remain passive and thus reading body language is a good way to ascertain motives and feelings without being seen as “too aggressive.” Men on the other hand have no incentive to read body language as we can say what we think and ask what we want without fear of social repercussion.
Of course this wouldn’t be a problem if women could approach too. But alas Patriarchy discourages that. but seriously, to all you feminist women, if you want a guy, approach. It’s a great preselection technique, because if he finds that “freaky” then he’s probably not a suitable partner anyway.
love this.
Robb’s advice has been around since the early 2000′s. Welcome to the party.
This is exactly why some of us can’t take PUA critics all that seriously. It’s just too obvious that most have not bothered to research the subject with the diligence it deserves.
Robb,
You, sir, are suck-up. The patriarchy, if it ever really existed, is now in ruined shambles, but you still want to blame it for women being reluctant to approach men.
Patriarchy is one word, I would have said “blind adherence to gender roles/grooming on what little girls are supposed to do”. Why do you think women don’t approach men?
Why do I think women don’t approach men?
Well, because most women can be fairly certain that men will approach them, and it’s just easier to let men approach. It’s been my experience that women seem to be more likely to take the initiative in social situations where they feel it’s less likely that they will be approached. I know if I had women approaching me all the time, I would put a lot less thought and effort into meeting women.
This is a really good example of something I said earlier about learning to have a conversation and being aware of social cues. A lot of guys will steamroll a conversation, talk until the woman’s eyes are glazing over, say stupid things that obviously don’t impress her, make remarks that turn her off, or scare her with intimidating body language or an overbearing tone of voice. Then they feel rejected because she isn’t interested. To the extent PUA “training” improves these kinds of social interaction skills I think it could be valuable. But you dont have to dress it up with fancy NLP jargon or make it out like it is some kind of secret code to manipulating women. It’s just about having good social awareness.
Sarah, you’re propagating the classic stereotypical dynamic that men need to “impress and entertain” women to be considered.
When men say that women “talk too much” in conversation, I’m sure you take offense, though here, the same stereotype in reverse, just rolls off your tongue.
All the issues you mention as not impressing women in conversation, men say in reverse about women in conversation.
Funny that.
If you are in a job interview don’t you need to try to impress? If you are talking in a meeting don’t you need to impress? If you are invited to speak at a seminar don’t you need to be entertaining? If you are making conversation with anyone don’t you need to think about how you are coming across? So why do you expect it to be any different when you are talking to a woman? Women have to think about whether they are impressing and being entertaining as well.
Sarah, it depends what you mean by conversation. Theres conversation and theres connnversaaation. Now most guy can do ordinary conversation. Men do talk to each other. However I wonder if the conversational skills youre talking about , are the romantic/flirtatious convo skills – kind that ‘sweep a woman off her feet’. That is , verbally bypass her conscious mind and speak directly to her subconscious. Inflame her emotions with words, arouse her intrigue, catch her with wit, engage her with humour. Well then youre right. Most men cant do that. But then most women cant either. Luckily for this species, most het men don’t need to be verbally ‘swept off their feet’ too. Or this species would die out.
Skill in Romantic conversation is rare
What the natural romantic/flirtatious men are doing is nlp. In my opinion Seduction, sales, persuasion – all nlp.
If you read my comment, I said you don’t need to dress up what are basically rules good social skills with NLP jargon or PUA mystique. I’m not denigrating NLP as a field of study. Also, it is not misandrist to say that a lot of men don’t know how to talk effectively with women. Isn’t that the same thing that PUA trainers say? Are PUA gurus misandrist when they tell guys they are doing it all wrong when it comes to meeting women?
Sorry Sarah, but if Charlie Sheen despite shooting one wife, threating another at knife point and assaulting a third and only being able to talk about himself and his needs, still manages to arouse women then your arguments come across as very very distant from reality.
The NLP jargon is an artifact of when the scene got started, because the Usenet group where all this originated was created by and for Ross Jeffries’ students. It later stuck, even when real life players began to come in– because many of them were looking at NLP as a tool to enhance the success they already had (i.e. get the girls that normally would not consider them their type).
Having thought it over a couple of days now, what bothers me most about Ms. White’s article is that she (along with Amanda Marcotte and Clarisse Thorn) seems more interested in scoring rhetorical points for the Feminist Team over the PUA crowd, than in offering worthwhile advice to men on the subject of meeting women. White’s piece in particular was mostly Feminist anti-PUA talking points with a very, very little advice thrown in as window dressing.
If you want to editorialize against the PUAers, well, have at it, but don’t bother to pretend you have some advice on the subject of meeting women that men haven’t heard before. What little actual advice offered by White, Marcotte and Thorn was of a kind given me by my grandmother 35 years ago, “modernized” with some Feminist jargon.
Anyone who presumes to advise men that the way to meet women is to “Try letting women come to you.” isn’t really serious about giving men useful advice, or just doesn’t know what the hell she is talking about.
Men tend to make things more complicated than they really have to, it’s just the way things are. I agree that meeting women can be scary especially if you’re a shy guy. But heres the facts. It’s a mans job usually to approach a woman and ask her out. This is why it’s important to actually go out and create the fun and interesting life that attracts others to you. If you are actually doing the unique things that you are talking about then theres no need to make them up. Yes, this is alot more work than taking the shortcut route of fake stories, but what happens when she finds out that everything you said was fake? Create the life you want, gain some confidence and accomplish goals. And remember nobody can resist a genuine, real person that polite, funny, interesting and has amazing conversational skills.
So break the cycle. Don’t pursue those types of women. Done.