A man asks Josie and Eli how he can tell his friend that she’s setting her sights too high with the men she crushes on.
Originally appeared at She Said He Said
Dear Sexes: I have a friend who constantly tries to date WAY out of her league. I wish we lived in a world where that wasn’t true, but we don’t, and it is. After two years of dealing with her non-stop heartbreak and drama, I just can’t take it anymore. I desperately want to tell her that she needs to, in the short term anyway, “lower her aim.” The problem is, I’m a guy, and I’m afraid it will sound insulting no matter what I say. Is there any way to clue her in without losing her as a friend?
She Said: It sounds less like she has a problem with dating out of her league as she does falling for unavailable guys. There’s something about the unavailable guy (or girl)… The thrill of the chase, the fantasy of the conquest… There’s such a huge ego boost in getting attention from that special someone who can’t/doesn’t/won’t give you what you need. You’re like a starving man gobbling up crumbs. It feels good for a moment, but you’re still starving in the end.
This is crazily unhealthy! And you’re seeing it in front of your eyes. And that’s where you start with your friend. Tell her what you’re seeing, and how it makes you feel. Don’t make it about “leagues” or other outward values. Make it about the real issue, and that’s her interest in unavailable men. Ask her what makes her think she isn’t worthy of the real thing. Ask her why she thinks a guy’s looks are so important. Ask her if she feels like guys should feel the same way about women (but don’t make her feel ugly, just ask rhetorically, about all women), and if they only dated outwardly beautiful women what she would think of them. It’s no different if a woman is shallow than if a man is, but my gut feeling is that this is more of an intimacy issue than anything else.
He Said: I wish we had a bit more information here, because I love the topic of your question. People’s poor choices in dating is always a good place to start. But how are these guys out of your friend’s league? Are they too cool? Too rich? Too famous? Too attractive? These are really rhetorical questions, because there’s no such thing as someone being out of your league (unless… is your friend incredibly ugly and extremely mean?).
It’s cliche, but it’s true – beauty really is in the eye of the beholder. I’m no Brad Pitt, I’m not a millionaire, I ain’t a rocket scientist, and I don’t have a 12 inch penis. Still, I’ve always dated very beautiful women. For the most part, these women were all smart, successful, and very pretty (at least I thought so). How is this possible? How is this NOT possible?!? Your league is what you make it. Be kind, be confident, be enthusiastic, be perceptive, be open, be sincere – you’ll be doing just fine (in life and dating).
Now, if your friend is going after guys who make themselves unavailable or inaccessible, that’s something different. Or, if your friend has unrealistically high expectations of men in the dating world, then that’s something she needs to address. If you want to help her with her love life, remind her to go after dudes who are single (for starters), interested in her, treat people well, and are open to a relationship (or whatever your friend is looking for). Color me jaded, but I still think this is all a plot to limit her choices, until she has to date YOU!
Photo—Bossy businessman from Shutterstock
Women can easily have casual sex relationships, flings with men way out of their league. A mediocre looking woman who is mediocre in every other aspect can easily have casual sex with good looking, tall, fit, charming and socially attractive men. Some immature women think that just because its easy for them to have sex with those men, they deserve the same quality of men for relationships as well. These women are poisoned for the ordinary looking men who are her equals. I advice men that if you are an average looking guy, never emotionally invest in a woman who… Read more »
Jimmy, every single one of your posts so far has been critical of “women.” I’ve certainly met my share of superficial, dishonest, unreliable men and would never make the mistake of starting a sentence with “men …” because there is no way I can possibly know every man’s experience. Just because I was cheated on by Peter and Daniel and Joe doesn’t necessarily mean that James will cheat on me. Please refrain from using “women…” and “most women…” in your posts as there is no way you’ve interacted with most women. Of course, “most men…” should not be in one’s… Read more »
Hi I’ve read the email and comments. Something that keeps creeping in my mind is, this guy friend, doesn’t sound like a nice guy. Sorry, but he sounds very judgmental of her. He is picking on her looks. I understand it must be tiresome to hear the same complaints over and over. This male friend could mention to the woman having trouble she may feel better seeing a therapist to help her get some relief, understanding or a good ear while kindly pointing out patterns to her. There are many that have sliding fee scales. I’m leery of males who… Read more »
On second thought, don’t bother telling your friend that she should lower her standards because:
A. she’ll never believe you and will continue thinking she’s hot shit and “deserves” brad pitt
B. she’ll fcking hate you for telling her the truth
Ironically, many of these same women with inflated expectations would be outraged to encounter a man who had any standards whatsoever. “Who does he think he is?” is the usual cry.
Wow – Less attractive females actually have the nerve to have THE SAME standards as drop dead georgeous females?
Who knew?
Hell I even remember in high school getting made fun of for the chicks I was dating and having to defend my choices. In my experience women are just as bad a men when it comes to shaming you for dating someone “below” you. And I can only imagine how it made those poor girls feel.
As for “game” it just basically sounds like teasing girls and making yourself a challenge to them. I don’t think it’s overt at all.
To the friend that wrote the letter, I think you should concern yourself less with what *you* personally think is in and out of her league physically and maybe help her more with the emotional aspects of dating. If you really really want to help her with her pictures, offer to help her with her profile, have her pick out some pictures she likes of herself, then from the pictures she picked, make your suggestion about what would work best. Perhaps even get your current gf to talk to her or a mutual female friend. Talk to her about her… Read more »
“If you want to help her with her love life, remind her to go after dudes who are single (for starters), interested in her, treat people well, and are open to a relationship (or whatever your friend is looking for).” – Pretty much yeah, what He Said. 🙂 Out of high school, I always thought the concept of “leagues” was a bit ridiculous. Maybe I just hang out with really awesome people, or something, but I don’t know anyone who actually thinks like that. Yeah, we’ve all got preferences…and those preferences are wicked diverse. Some people put more importance on… Read more »
““If you want to help her with her love life, remind her to go after dudes who are interested in her.” Best advice yet, but it won’t work. Women tend to like guys who *aren’t* interested in them, it’s what game is all about, and it works really really well. “But outside of that very specific instance…yeah no one really thinks like that.” You may not, but many people do. I know I’ve been embarrassed to take some girls out on dates because I was “out of their league by a mile”. Other women would give me strange looks while… Read more »
Okay but “game” and all that nonsense is about picking a woman up and sleeping with her, yes? It’s about a one-nighter. I mentioned that’s the only time I’ve ever seen people actually worry about what league they’re in. When it comes to, like, proper dating and relationships, though…I’ve not seen anyone actually think like that.
I’d also be interested in seeing how much all the stuff about “game” actually works. Or whether women just pick up on the fact that a guy is applying “game,” and is therefore interested, and so therefore responds accordingly. i.e. I’m guessing “game” is just as obvious as normal flirting.
I couldn’t tell you as I’m not a chick, but I see friends of mine applying it and it works phenomenally well. I think the point is that it’s not obvious at all, otherwise it wouldn’t work.
And I think most relationships I see tend to start as one-night-stands.
“I think the point is that it’s not obvious at all, otherwise it wouldn’t work.” Well now, here’s a problem with that logic. Consider the following possibility: A hypothetical PUA has been told that women only sleep with men they think aren’t interested in them. So he uses all of his PUA techniques to “convince” her to sleep with him by pretending he’s not interested. Meanwhile this hypothetical woman actually is interested in men who are interested in her. So when she sees this PUA using his techniques (and recognizes that he’s interested) she responds accordingly so that he knows… Read more »
It’s not quite as black and white as that. It’s more like giving the impression that: “‘yea I’m interested in you and I would totally f*ck you, but I could take it or leave it. You’re nothing special. I’m gonna tease you and f*ck around with you a little bit and then just walk away and talk to that other girl because I really don’t care about you.” It’s not about “tricking” women so much as it’s about applying the tried and true method of playing hard to get. Women seem to love a challenge and hate when you approach… Read more »
“Women seem to love a challenge and hate when you approach them honestly and directly.” This is extremely offensive, Jimmy. Please read my other post. Also, I think it’s quite clear that HUMAN BEINGS in general love a challenge and lose interest in partners that they could get easily. That very sentence I quoted from you is something I have heard countless times from so-called evolutionary theories to describe men! But as I said above, I don’t believe it’s men — or women. It’s PEOPLE. People love a challenge. It may indeed be evolutionary for us to want the best… Read more »
“As for the last bit, that most relationships start as one-night-stands…well that’s most certainly not always the case. I think that’s dependant on where you are and the people you are around.”
I think the main factor here is age.
How old are you? Like an age range? I don’t mean to pry, but you did bring it up.
I’m in my twenties.
From what I hear the dating game is *very* different for young people today. Sex on a first date is the norm and one night stands are business as usual. Maybe this is just my experience but I think I’ve only had one relationship where we didn’t have sex before we became exclusive.
So why bring those girls out if they’re only an embarrassment to you? I for one would be horrified to find eventually find out I was the mockery of the night when I was so far below you.
I’ve dated girls that I liked. Maybe she was overweight, or maybe she had scars, or maybe she was bald, but I liked her because she had a beautiful smile, or a spunky attitude, or huge doe eyes. I would get embarrassed when other girls would try to shame me by saying things like “you can do better” or “why her?” For a while I would defend my choices and just tell them “I like her” but then over time I realized they would never stop. So I don’t bring girls out anymore who I know women will shame me… Read more »
I think it’s sad that you let people have so much say over what you do, and that you give up on people that you are genuinely interested in and instead listen to people that you’ll probably never see again.
Maybe The women giving you strange looks were wondering what those poor girls were doing with you? I hope you broke up with all those great girls who were not worthy to be seen in public, you did them a great favor getting rid of your sorry ass. They deserve to be more than someone’s dirty little secret.
“Women tend to like guys who *aren’t* interested in them, it’s what game is all about, and it works really really well.” PEOPLE like partner who aren’t interested i them. Why do you think there are pick-up artists out there selling books entitled “date women out of your league” or “date only 9’s and 10’s even if you’re average”? (I’ve seen these!) How do this authors even make a living? Because PEOPLE do want a partner that is out of their league. Fortunately, though, most of us realize that’s not practical or even important. The important thing is finding someone… Read more »
I read the original question, and also the anonymous comment purporting to be the original asker who is clarifying the situation. This reply also addresses the anonymous comment. It doesn’t seem that the problem is that the friend is dating out of her “league”, rather that she does not post full body photos in her ads, and that the asker is passing judgment on her “pear” body shape. What would lowering her aim be? I am assuming she wants to date conventionally attractive people and the poster does not believe she should or can? I find it strange that she… Read more »
So, what I hear some people saying is that unattractive people should just know their place and only seek out people as attractive as they are. That unattractive people haven’t earned the right to approach or date attractive people or don’t have the right to get their hopes up. Perhaps even that it’s arrogant to seek relationships with attractive people when you are unattractive. Wow. Just, wow. It must be a tremendous hardship for the attractive people to have so much unwanted attention from us unworthy ugly people. Perhaps we should stick to our own kind and not go out… Read more »
“So, what I hear some people saying is that unattractive people should just know their place and only seek out people as attractive as they are. That unattractive people haven’t earned the right to approach or date attractive people or don’t have the right to get their hopes up. Perhaps even that it’s arrogant to seek relationships with attractive people when you are unattractive.” I think you missed the point here. We aren’t talking about unattractive *men*. A guy could be hideous but as long as he has other stuff going for him (money, power, fame) he can still get… Read more »
The. actual. fuck? That YOU think women’s most valuable thing is their beauty is your problem. That YOU think men’s most valuable trait isn’t even a trait but something that isn’t even on them (money) is also your problem. And no, the article is talking about women chasing men who are more physically attractive than them. Most men care about women’s exterior (beauty and grace) the most, that is true. Most women care about men’s interior (personality and confidence) the most, that is also true. Why are you adding money in this is really a curiosity; both women and men… Read more »
Yes. ThIs. Thank heavens someone finally made a decent comment. I was getting stabby.
A lot of people seem more interested in stating their own value judgements on the word ‘league’ than they are in actually trying to help…
Leave her to it. Everyone needs to go through their own learning curve and of course there are some that never learn. She might be one of them. I’ve known women like this and frankly they were single at 23 and they are single at 36. Everyone of them had their own issues to deal with, issues they weren’t actually willing to face so they chose people who would never love them back. She might be the same. Personally I don’t believe that ‘dating out of one’s league’ is a dated or irrelevant term however I feel it applies mostly… Read more »
This is 2012. If you want success, go be successful. If an ugly dude said he wanted a perfectly toned blond with great curves and a dollish face, he’d be laughed at (and with good reason). So who why do women with no success of their own to speak of think that they have a right to a successful man? They didn’t earn that. That’s before you even get to the problems of the heavy-duty class stratification this society has undergone in the last twenty years or the 30+ years of wage stagnation men have endured. So yeah, men are… Read more »
“If you’re not all that good looking work on other aspects of your life that make you equally appealing to a woman. Be funny, do well at your job, work out and get a great body, be sporty, be interesting, be adventurous.”
I wish this worked, but it doesn’t. I don’t even consider myself that unattractive, and I have a lot going for me. Even still, I am serially unable to get a date.
Dude… from what I’ve read you post on here you’re some kind of fucking genius. That’s awesome, that’s a level of intelligence I wish I had. Here’s the thing, you could get more chicks just using your brain than I can. If I was you, I’d study game, I’d read books, I’d go to seminars, and I’d learn how to pick up chicks like a pro.
You probably play chess right? or some other game? It’s the same exact thing. It’s just a game dude.
Actually, genius is so far in my rear view mirror, I can’t even see it! It’s funny you mention it as being a game. I have a great deal of trouble viewing some things as a game. I know that I should view life as a game, but I have a great deal of trouble doing so. There is a disconnect between knowing something on an intellectual level and believing it on an emotional level. That is, in my opinion, the most frustrating part of it all. I often joke that I’d be so much better if I were a… Read more »
First off, it aint easy to remove yourself from the equation and consider it all coldly and methodically. It’s damn near impossible for me. But it’s all mental, and I figure a dude like you is always dyin for a mental challenge.
“It is so difficult to have all the answers before you and be wholly unable to utilize them.”
baby steps, bro. Think of the samurai who would enter battle wishing that they would die, they had no fear.
“For those men who say that men go for quantity over quality or will take any woman they can get, I think you are missing out on a lot of fun. Get with the program. If you’re not all that good looking work on other aspects of your life that make you equally appealing to a woman. Be funny, do well at your job, work out and get a great body, be sporty, be interesting, be adventurous.” Eh? I think you’re missing the goal here. The thing about “quantity vs quality” is that chasing quantity doesn’t preclude you from meeting… Read more »
If she is clueless about appropriate conversation on a first date (ie., making cringe-worthy comments), maybe she should just work on herself and just being friends with people (of both sexes) so that she gets a clue! To take the pressure off, maybe she could just try a biking club or a boot camp workout class at the local gym so that she can just hang out with guys (and girls) in a casual atmosphere….she gets to know people and finds out what turns people on (and off) and gets a great workout (and evens out her pear-shaped figure)… Or… Read more »
I see this a lot and I don’t really understand it. Girls who aren’t very attractive at all seem to think they can get any guy they want. It makes me think of that survey on OKCupid where women rated something like 80% of the men as “less attractive than average.” The weird part is that I see girls who aren’t attractive with the same standards as drop dead gorgeous women. That’s just insane. I think a lot of women probably just hit a wall and settle for men they think they’re “too good” for. “It sounds less like she… Read more »
This is common with all kinds of self-perception. We all fool ourselves. I’ve read somewhere that 90% of drivers think they are “above average” drivers. Probably about 80% of people think that they are above average intelligence, above average looks, above average fitness, above average work ethic, etc. Theoretically, it could be mathematically true that 80% are above average, depending on the distribution. If there were 20% of the population who were completely, utterly repulsive, five times uglier than average and everyone else was more or less pretty, then it could work. If a small number of drivers get into… Read more »
I don’t know, man. I know I’m not a great driver. I know I’m not the most jacked up dude. I know I’m not the next Einstein. I think it has less to do with an inflated sense of self and more to do with extremely high expectations of self. I think it boils down to quantity vs quality. Most guys I know will go after girls who are below them because they just want a girl, (almost) any girl. Most women I know will only go after guys who are above them. It seems like a completely different mindset.… Read more »
“Most guys I know will go after girls who are below them because they just want a girl, (almost) any girl. Most women I know will only go after guys who are above them.”
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Most guys go for girls below them, did you guys hear that?!!! 😀
I wonder what happens then, as I look at couples and always find the woman much more attractive than the man, not to mention the effort they put into their looks which is far superior than their man. xD
I think Jimmy means in terms of hooking up or something casual. When guys are looking for a girl to settle down with, they go up.
I think “below average” has just become a synonym for “fairly bad” and most people don’t think much about what it really means.
I think you raise a good but really sad point here. Namely that someone can’t really choose to lower their standards without feeling like they got the short end of the stick. If they really feel like they “deserve” the absolute best partner, then they won’t ever feel satisfied or even lucky with anyone who doesn’t meet that standard.
Is it any wonder why so many women file for divorce?
“Much more common for attached people to give advice to single people, and much, much rarer for someone out in the dating world to tell another single person not to be so picky.” I think that’s an insightful comment. But it goes all manner of different ways. I see a lot of single people trying to give advice to the married ones with problems. The women giving advice to men and vice versa. And of course, advice columnists in general. We all think we know and we do and we don’t. We’ve all lived and learned. Made mistakes and want… Read more »
For anybody interested, Jimmy is referring to this http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-dating/
“As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium. Very harsh.”
“Females of OkCupid, we site founders say to you: ouch! Paradoxically, it seems it’s women, not men, who have unrealistic standards for the “average” member of the opposite sex.”
In all fairness, when you’re talking about online dating sites. So these are women who refused to date everyone in the real world who was willing to come up to them and ask them out. You do have a bit of a selection bias there.
Not necessarily. A lot of people are trying online dating now, and I don’t think it’s because they refuse to date anyone in the real world who was willing to come up to them and ask them out. I mean I live in a city where no one makes eye contact and saying hi to a stranger is met with suspicion. I’m on a work trip now and it’s really startling how nice people are to strangers here, I’m just not used to it. So where I live you don’t just walk up to people and ask them out and… Read more »
Nope, it’s really American men who are indeed some of the least attractive men you can find. Yhey don’t take that much care of themselves, don’t put enough effort, etc. American women are just being honest, they have mostly only bad options.
So basically you’re doing the exact same thing you accuse them of doing – judging “most” girls as unattractive and below your ststandards. Karma’s a bitch.
This “dating out of your league” thing is fairly dated. The attraction is there or it’s not. Kinda reminds me of other discussions about religion, politics and music. Either it works for you or it doesn’t.
I see this as such a commonplace problem as to be almost invisible. Don’t most people you run across think they deserve a much better mate than their actual qualities (looks, status, personality, etc.) warrant? Doesn’t everyone secretly believe “I deserve the best”?
Eh I don’t really see this from guys at all. Most of the guys I know want the same exact thing: a pretty girl who is smart, loyal and kind. I really don’t think that’s a lot to ask for. But the girls I see seem to always expect a guy to follow some set script that she has mapped out (do x, don’t do y) In my limited experience women seem to have their sights set MUCH MUCH higher than men.
It’s just the way girls talk. It’s more talk than anything else, girls like to dream out loud with one another. In the end most girls only want a cool guy who isn’t that ugly and has decent values. Now when it comes to guys, the two or three criterais they list usually mean much more, underneath it all. A “pretty girl” (yes, it has to come as first!) usually means someone more attractive than him in general (and that is also much more vain – shaven body while he is a hairy bastard, cute clothes while he dresses poorly,… Read more »
Sorry to all men for engaging in a tired stereotype, but tell me I’m not the only one out there wondering if the letter writer has a crush on his female “friend.” Is this a case of his wanting her to lower her sights…onto him? Perhaps he has a very specific one-man league in mind….
I am the letter writer, and I can assure you that I have no crush on the friend in question (I’m actually happily in my own relationship). She has two issues: First, she uses online dating sites extensively, yet she has a pear-shaped body that doesn’t really come across in her online profile picture, which is current and not remotely touched up, but only shows her shoulders and face. As a result, you can look at the picture and get an idea about a certain level of “attractiveness” when the reality is…very different. She’s my friend, and it’s painful to… Read more »
“The second issue is that she’s really emotionally immature. She never had a real dating life in high school and only got into online-dating during her senior year of undergrad. As a result, she’s 23 but dealing with issues that most of us dealt with when we were 16.”
There are others in this same boat. >< I'd go on practice dates with her if for no other reason than experience!
Thanks for clearing that up and giving some more detail. I can see how frustrating it must be to see her walk right into disappointment over and over again. I would separate the appearance issue from the maturity/experience issue. Whether or not her online photo does her justice is just one of those issues that men she meets online will face no matter what her “shape” is. If they are disappointed upon meeting her in person, that is really their problem, not so much a question of being in her league or not. I can see a friend suggesting that… Read more »
The problem is not leagues per se.
Its about honesty.
If she won’t post a picture that accurately reflects what she looks like in real-life, she needs to do something about her looks. It all comes out in the wash when guys walk away after a date and don’t call. She should be honest or change.
As for the immaturity- it might be a good idea simply to have a talk about general dating etiquette. If she sounds desperate/crazy on a date only the desperate and the crazy will continue dating her.
This is an old post but I came upon it and this “friend” who is “trying to help” sounds pretty superficial. She has a pear shaped body? So she can’t expect men to find her that attractive? And how dare she show a picture of only her face! How unfair that a guy should have to go out and meet a woman with a pretty face without knowing she has a perfect body! What a disappointment! And the fact that she’s “dealing with issues most of us dealt with when we were 16?” Since we all had active dating lives… Read more »