Chuck Rudd thinks porn has ruined it for us all, especially when it comes to kissing.
My first encounter with explicit pornography occurred when I was 11 years old. Several friends and I got a hold of one of my friend’s dad’s porno movies. The one scene that was forever imprinted upon me involved a guy flying through a window wearing a Superman outfit. He dropped trow, put his hand on his hips, and was fellated by a damsel in distress. No talking, no kissing, no foreplay—just spandex and a blowjob and sex.
At a party the other night a young woman I work with was talking about how “hot” one of our male co-workers, Danny, is. The woman recently made out with Danny, but, despite finding him physically attractive, stopped doing so because she thinks he’s a horrible kisser. She’s told other girls at work that Danny doesn’t know what he’s doing in that regard, and the news is spreading through my workplace like a bad internet meme (OK, I heard two separate girls talking about it—close enough). I estimate that Danny is now marked with a giant circled ‘K’ with a line through it which means that he’s sexual toast at work.
Though I’ve always known that kissing is important in building attraction, I had forgotten just how important kissing is to women. The fact that I had to be reminded and the fact that Danny apparently sucks at sucking face are two data points suggesting that men forget this and to our own detriment. And I wonder if pornography has helped create the problem.
Several years ago, Wired magazine ran a piece citing the 1964 classic “The Shoop Shoop Song (It’s in His Kiss)” sung by Betty Everett. In the article, the song was held as an inadvertent truism on the information provided by the kiss—an act, by the way, that seems sort of strange when you think about it. Kissing transfers chemical signals from one person to the other and can reach deeply entrenched psychological caverns that tell us whether or not the person we’re kissing is “worthy”—of what generally depends on each kisser’s sex. If kissing science is correct, Everett may have been on to something when she sang:
is it in his eyes
oh no you’ll be deceived
is it in his sighs
oh no he’ll make believe
if you want to know if he loves you so
it’s in his kiss
that’s where it is
The deeper insight is that women seem to be more keen on kissing than men. Albright College psychologist Susan Hughes has conducted some of the only research dealing with the question of sex differences in the importance placed on kissing. She found that men use kissing as a means to an end—the end being (surprise!) sex. Men also kiss more sloppily than women in an attempt to basically force more testosterone-carrying saliva into the mouths of the babes. While, for men, kissing is a tool, women interpret it as a signal:
Perhaps more surprising than the fact that men like sloppy kisses is that “they’ll even forgo kissing altogether if they can just have sex,” [Albright College psychologist Susan] Hughes told Life’s Little Mysteries. Indeed, Hughes’ survey found that over half of men would be willing to have sex with someone without kissing them, while only 14 percent of women would do so.
In general, the importance of kissing to women is correlated with the importance they place on pair-bonding. Kissing tends to be seen by men as an ancillary act to sex. Women on the other hand have a different strategy. Their incentive, given their long gestation period and limited egg production, is to seek a quality mate. Kissing and other foreplay is a better indicator of mate quality than is ability to have sex like a porn star. Yet, being the biggest consumers of porn, men idolize the porn star’s efficient investment of time and energy. The porn star persona is an exaggeration of what men prefer in the first place – sex without the prologue – but it ratchets up to the level of fantasy and helps men forget that women typically don’t have such sexual goals.
Thus, men are cued up to ignore an extremely important part of the process. Again, perhaps the ideal setup for a man—from an evolutionary perspective—is detached sex with as many women as possible. But realistically, men want women who like them, want to date and spend time with them, and—at some point—have sex with them. An eye on the first-best ideal sets men up to fall short of the second-best ideal.
Growing up using pornography as a template for igniting a woman’s erogenous zones ignores important parts (to women) of the attraction-building process. In porn, men see women deriving sexual pleasure from intercourse. And while it is certainly true that women receive pleasure from sex, porn-viewing can lead men to think of both sexes’ sexual priorities as homogenous. Thus, if kissing isn’t all that important to me—a man—it probably isn’t all that important to women either. If I think like that and think of kissing only as a means to an end, I may never reach that end.
Just as Superman flew faster than a speeding bullet, if men had it their way they’d time warp through all of the ‘wasteful’ baubles of kissing. But we aren’t Supermen, and we aren’t porn stars. Perhaps rather than spending as much time and energy worrying about our sexual performance, we may want to spend more time thinking about our kissing performance.
—Photo crazbabe21/Flickr
About Chuck Ross
Perhaps being a bit nit-picky here, but the quote doesn’t quite match the description of the survey and I’m wondering which is more accurate. The quote makes it sound like more men would prefer not to kiss, assuming they’ll still get sex, while the survey description makes it sound like more men are willing to have sex without kissing (which doesn’t imply that it’s preferred).
Also, you definitely need to read this book to get the lowdown on the what and why of kissing: The Science of Kissing
Informally, I find that men like to kiss more inside movie theaters than outside movie theaters. I like it the other way around.
That sounds like a really neat book Nick – did you read it for interest or advice
Too late for advice for me, although I’m sure my wife wouldn’t mind if I improved my game a bit.
Kissing transfers chemical signals from one person to the other and can reach deeply entrenched psychological caverns that tell us whether or not the person we’re kissing is “worthy”—of what generally depends on each kisser’s sex. If kissing science is correct, Everett may have been on to something when she sang:
is it in his eyes
oh no you’ll be deceived
is it in his sighs
oh no he’ll make believe
if you want to know if he loves you so
it’s in his kiss
that’s where it is
Defitinely accurate. 100% true.
In my short research for the piece, that book kept popping up. Must be good. I’ll have to throw it in the queue.
Not me. At all. I love kissing girls and always have. I consider it an essential part of possessing them, and yes seducing them as well.
I was first taught to kiss by a regular babysitter when I was ten or eleven. I adored her and she loved to tease me. She loved my adoration. Went so far as taking her top and bra off and let me fondle and suck her tits. She had pretty good sized ones.
@Doug1: “I love kissing girls and always have”
Me too. And I’m sure plenty of men do.
I’d dare to say emotionally developed men love petting and kissing, beside genital activity.
It’s not men itself who cannot appreciate kissing (or the like), it’s the emotionally under-developed ones who lack a wide and rich sexual-emotional panorama, and are – therefore – more simple-minded and unidirectional.
Personally, I want the whole package. Kisses, touching, fondling, skin, genitals… everything. 8)
Why would I settle for less?
You forgot lazy and self centered?
“Indeed, Hughes’ survey found that over half of men would be willing to have sex with someone without kissing them, while only 14 percent of women would do so.”
Yeah, the idea of having sex with a guy without kissing him is pretty inconceivable to me. At least for like, a one night stand. And no kissing is definitely NOT preferable in any situation. I don’t speak for all women, obviously, but making out is pretty critical to getting excited for sex.
I also have a few single girl friends in college who would go out to the club/bar (small college town, haha) or a frat and find guys to make out with. They weren’t actually interested in sex or dating or anything, just dancing and making out. Which I totally understand – making out is a thoroughly enjoying experience. I wonder if some of this is also related to how many women don’t place too much emphasis on orgasm during sex: if your focus is enjoying the ride and enjoying getting excited, as opposed to focusing on the end, it seems like you would enjoy making-out on its own.
And yes, kissing is the determiner of physical chemistry. I don’t know if someone can be a bad kisser, but they can definitely be a bad kisser with some people (lack of chemistry).
You don’t really have to wonder – this is exactly why most of us hate just making out, and by extension, things like cuddling all night without sex. We can’t just enjoy the ride, because make-out gets us all hot and bothered, and that’s just frustrating. We *need* the end on a more physical level than women do, because they don’t have anything building up in their passageways that causes discomfort and needs to be released.
This is also why most men hate women like your friends. If they’re making out with you because they do like you, but don’t want to sleep with you right away, that’s one thing (maybe, it depends on how far they take it). If they’re doing it because that’s all they want… well, men have no shortage of names for women like that for a reason. They’re just selfish and they don’t care about anyone’s feelings but their own.
“We can’t just enjoy the ride, because make-out gets us all hot and bothered, and that’s just frustrating. We *need* the end on a more physical level than women do, because they don’t have anything building up in their passageways that causes discomfort and needs to be released.”
WRONG! We women, at least I and several I’ve talked to, DO feel build up, the need to release and discomfort if we don’t get that release. We also feel that if we are brought near orgasm but don’t climax and come down from it.
By the way, there is a technique of initmate touch that does not make one feel hot and bothered but rather soothed and relaxed. Look into “karezza”.
Some interesting points, but also I see some dangerous generalizations here about men not liking kissing. i don’t fit the generalization. But perhaps that is because a) The amount of porn I watch is near zero; b) I happen to enjoy kissing on its own, quite a lot; and c) I’m good at it (according to my girlfriend).
Maybe it because of (a), that I learned (b) and (c) by making the effort. Something for all parties to consider. Chuck, you are correct that more time should be devoted to thinking about kissing. It sure worked well for me.
I can use my own anecdote of being someone exposed to porn at an earlier age than Chuck, and being totally into kissing, to contrast your own.
I’m not sure there is a link between porn and a lack of kissing. The explanations suggest a natural reason women are interested in kissing (pair bonding instincts, and likely to help determine MHC markers) and a socialized reason men are disinterested (porn). That type of study seems like it would be difficult to design well.
Nick,
my argument is basically that porn puts up another set of blinders to kissing – one more than we already tend have naturally. the unimportance of kissing in porn is itself an example of how relatively unimportant kissing is to men. porn is the extreme example of our general preferences. it is male fantasy, mostly. so young men increasingly use porn as their script in the sexual realm. they also see that the men in porn are getting positive feedback from the women who are, real or not, enjoying themselves. so kissing becomes less and less important to men, to their detriment.
I agree. Porn is the totally artificial simulation of a real act. Porn is designed to be artificial in every aspect to quickly satisfy its audience. Its growing purpose is to be an easy surrogate for real life sex – instant satisfaction. Porn is created for a paying audience that wants to see what it believes everybody else is enjoying, in a reality show, celebrity magazine culture influenced by declining intimacy. The audience doesn’t want to miss out on anything. Plenty of kissing is going on in real life – as is intimacy: There’s lots of babies still around out there – single motherhood, or not.
The article misses the point trying to connect Fantasy Behavior in a non-intimate product, to the intimacy of a real life act. That may have been true before today’s flood of porn, in the early days of Deep Throat, when only a few easy examples existed to focus upon. Today, viewers demand to see what they are not doing. Porn is fantasy simulating an exaggerated human activity and is the same as the exaggerated unrealities of Madden Football are to real football; the same as Call of Duty is to real combat, etc.
Porn is now a commodity serving a society constantly demanding more; it reflects that audience’s insatiable materialism by producing an overwhelming abundance of product. Feminine influences seek an “intimate porn” value, as more female “stars” become directors – to make more money for themselves. There simply is not enough time to access ten billion porn videos for lame set-ups of the pizza deliveryman’s arrival, High Art – or kissing.
“I estimate that Danny is now marked with a giant circled ‘K’ with a line through it which means that he’s sexual toast at work.”
Danny should be suing for sexual harassment and creating a hostile workplace methinks.
“In general, the importance of kissing to women is correlated with the importance they place on pair-bonding. ”
I wish people would understand this point: IN NO PAIR BONDING SPECIES DOES THE FEMALE PAIR-BOND MORE THEN THE MALE.
Got it? Good.
Thank you! I hate that modern evolutionary biology is taken like men ONLY want detached sex ALL the time and that’s it’s HARDWIRED in to ALL MEN. And that women ONLY want to pair bond ALL the time and that it’s hardwired into ALL WOMEN. It does not make sense for a pair bonding species for only one half of the pair to be more bonded than the other. It just doesn’t.
I believe that I provided enough qualification in the piece to hammer home the point that these are generalities rather than hard-and-fast rules. There are exceptions to these *tendencies*.
@ Chuck
“There are exceptions to these *tendencies*.”
There are no tendencies here, that’s the point. If there are tendencies they aren’t due to biology and further, what criteria are you using to determine ‘pair bonded’?
If you use desire for commitment, you can make the case that women are more pair-bonding. If you chose commitment to relationship, women file the majority of divorces and men are more often devastated when their relationships end, making men more pair-bonding.
Chuck, I agree with you that kissing – and foreplay in general – make you “hotter” for the gals and a better lover (and a better person altogether, I’d add
).
OTOH, your putting the blame mostly on porn for men’s little propension for kissing seems exaggerated to me. At least if you’re talking about adults.
I mean, any thinking adult knows porn is not-real. It takes a really dumb man (or a naive teenager) to think porn is the example to follow!
We don’t accuse movies to fool people into thinking work is not important, just because in most movies you don’t see people working: we understand movies focus on the “meatier” parts of a story, not on boring routines.
After all, it just takes talking to a girl, to discover – oh my! – she likes kissing and foreplay a lot.
So, the point should not be “less porn”, but “more (inter-gender) communication”. 8)
Valter,
Good points. But to touch on one, actually I would make the argument that movies (and literature) are partly responsible for diminishing our attitudes toward work. But that’s a topic for another day.
On porn though, almost every young man watches porn. With the internet, it’s become ubiquitous. Each viewer of porn cares that much less about the kissing part of the relationship and more about the sex. That’s by design – for the men. But it’s not the ideal of the woman. Men may or may not know just how important kissing is. I use myself as an example. I have always known that kissing is important, but I was shocked to re-remember just how important it is to a lot of women.
@Chuck Rudd: “movies (and literature) are partly responsible for diminishing our attitudes toward work”
That’s an interesting point to debate.
@Chuck Rudd: “But it’s not the ideal of the woman”
Of course it’s not! Porn is tailor-made to cater to mens and their sexual imagination.
We must keep in mind that you cannot make everybody happy; chick flicks (or lit) aren’t “real”, don’t appeal to (most) males and can be misleading, similarly to porn (it’s called “female porn” not by chance).
To appeal and please a category (or gender), you can displease or disappoint another.
This doesn’t mean I underestimate the problem: men AND women need to know each other’s desires and needs.
But I think this will happen through an open and meaningful communication, not by bashing entertainment forms.
(entertainment is not made for education, and we can’t expect it is)
@ Valter Viglietti: “but more often than not, porn is held responsible (usually with no concrete proofs) for lots of “evil”
And I think it’s often a childish scapegoating, that doesn’t improve anything at all (like all scapegoatings).”
I would rather stress pornography has commoditized its exaggerated depiction of sex to capitalize on customers with millions of visuals to choose from. There may be no attempt to scapegoat pornography as a true evil, but it remains a fact that there is something within its imagery you would not want your kids to see – that age cut-off point of acceptability holds the key to understanding pornography’s mystique.
Wouldn’t you say?
@Firepower: “it remains a fact that there is something within its imagery you would not want your kids to see”
Whether I want it or not, my (imaginary
) kids would see porn anyway.
Hence, the best I can do is being open and understanding about the matter, so my children would see me as someone they can talk about sex with, and I could explain them the difference between fantasy and reality.
OTOH, if I would be all judgmental and phobic about sex, they would never trust me.
I believe kids are more damaged from sexuophobia than from seeing sex (think about censorship). Two people having sex is the most natural thing in the world: why hiding it?
- If kids are old enough they will naturally be curious about sex: so the best behaviour is let them know and explain to them.
- If they are still too young, they would not be really interested in it; they would not be “shocked” anyway.
Parents are shocked by sex, not children.
“Parents are shocked by sex, not children.”
Speak for yourself. Its either been a long time since you were a kid or else you weren’t like those of us who were in fact shocked by it. And today’s degrading, violent, bizarre and fetishized porn is something that I’m still schocked at, as an adult. If I were a kid and saw that stuff I’d probably get seriously depressed.
Or maybe Danny is just horribly inexperienced at kissing?
Sure we can talk about how important kissing is to women but if a guy has simply not been in the situation for kissing too often then there’s a good chance he will not be that great at it. There might be a liink between porn and lack of kissing but I’m just a bit shocked over how quickly this went from, “Danny’s a terrible kisser.” to “I wonder what role porn plays in this.”
Danny’s poor kissing isn’t to say that porn is to blame for his bad kissing per se. It was more of the reminder to me that kissing is that important to women that they will dock a man who isn’t good at it.
Oh I’m sure you weren’t trying to make a direct link between his bad kissing and porn. Its just that between starting off talking about porn, what the subheadline says, and talking about how porn may affect how much priority men put into kissing it just felt that way. Hence my being shocked.
It just felt like after recognizing that a lot of men don’t put much priority in kissing you went right to porn as the suspect.
I’m sure porn has something to do with it, just wondering if other things play into this as well.
@Danny: “… you went right to porn as the suspect”
Maybe that’s not what Chuck meant… but more often than not, porn is held responsible (usually with no concrete proofs) for lots of “evil”.
And I think it’s often a childish scapegoating, that doesn’t improve anything at all (like all scapegoatings).
That’s why it irks me when someone blames porn for something. In many cases it’s skin-deep, emotional and pointless.
I mean, teaching basic emotional and relationship education in schools would be IMMENSELY more useful to people’s relationships and happiness than banning porn. THAT would change things.
The problem is partners don’t know enough each other, they don’t communicate enough (or good enough). The problem is ignorance (and religions aren’t helping either, spreading bogus beliefs).
That’s the point, not porn or else.
Valter,
I never suggested banning porn. Porn can and should exist, and men can use it however they want. I don’t make a value judgment about porn. I’m just saying that a guy should also be aware of how porn might bias him in certain ways. It’s up to him from there to decide how he wants to use porn.
And I agree that ignorance is part of the problem. But porn contributes to that ignorance. It gives us the template to work from. Without porn, we kind of just went along without a script, but that script has moved more to the forefront. It becomes harder to break away from, and it’s not as if the women we’re trying to get with know any better than we do.
@Chuck Rudd: “I never suggested banning porn”
Again this is not you, Chuck)
I know.
In my last comment above, I wasn’t talking about your article anymore, I was referring to all the people bashing porn – often “histerically” – like it’s the source of all modern evil.
And immediately, here came a sample of that: see Firepower’s comment above.
(funnily enough, the worst porn bashers are usually the most ignorant about porn
Porn “contributes” to ignorance in a similar way to many forms of entertainment: what about “reality shows”? The Bachelor? Disney’s Princess myth? Barbie? Videogames? Hollywood movies? The list is endless…
Entertainment can be misinforming and misleading, because we cannot be serious and practical all the time.
Without (and before) porn, there was all sort of bizarre and crazy beliefs about sex, and much more ignorance. AFAIK, history has never seen sexual bliss – not in the West, anyway.
hi, i personally liked this article and found value in the fact that :to get…you have to give, -personally i have dated some horrible kissers .I found all, but one, to be teachable and erotic. we just need to be patient. guys! Now,porn aside, men learn early what women want by watching movies and mainly by trial and error. some give up, others flourish and others even ..marry! ….Important in this article, is the simple reminder that we need to speak ,and give the opposite sex..:’their currencies’” For some men ,it is romance for some women, it is sex. dancing well never hurts either get their needs met. Lastly it is so important to process the date asking what the other liked and didnt like- now that is intimacy!
Coming to the dance a bit late, but just wanted you to know that I saw this and good job Chuck.
Having said that…I’m having a num ber of problems with this piece – chief of which, the notion or idea that Men MUST be good kissers, or else. That may well be – but I thought the Men’s Movement was about affording Men choice in all areas of their lives? And if it comes out that a Man doesnt care to kiss much, or not a tall, isn’t that his choice? Mind you – I don’t necessarily agree with that – but I think we must respect his right not to do so.
I think we demonize Male sexuality way too much in our society. Why should simply accept that Men have differing interests, drives and goals than do Women along these lines, for the most part, and be completely cool with that. Women don’t have to accept Men who don’t wish to kiss much; they are free to be with other Men who do. But let’s not demonize the Men who don’t. They have every right not to.
O.
Men have every right to be good kissers or not. Sure.
But they don’t have the “right” to be loved and/or desired if they don’t.
You have the right to not washing yourself. But you cannot complain, then, if people avoid you because you stink.
In other words, the right to be what you want to be, do NOT include the obligation for others to like you nevertheless.
If you want to be liked, you have to please others; it’s simple like that.
Obsidian: Of course men have every right to not be good kissers or to not desire to kiss. Just like women have every right to not be good at blow jobs or to not wish to perform them. There’s no reason to demonize either, but it’s important to note that it’s worth the effort to at least TRY–and to know how important kissing and blow jobs are to your partner if you choose to be in a relationship. I don’t think the author was trying to say that men who can’t kiss are bad men, just trying to remind them that it tends to be important to women. Although in the process, he might have implied that men don’t like kissing, which many of the male commenters on this thread have found offensive.
I do think it was wrong for the women to gossip about Danny around the office–doesn’t seem like a terribly appropriate/professional topic of conversation. I’m not quite sure what they had to gain by spreading such gossip.
@aya:
Please see my above reply to val on your former points in response to me.
As for your parting shot, heres an interesting question for you:
If what chucks lady coworker did was so bad, why wasnt she chided by her lady coworkers? Now, you may argue that we dont know for certain that she wasnt-if that is indeed your position, i would then say “fair enough”.
Yet i think its fair to also say, that what chuck recounted is not at all unique-indeed i would argue it is quite commonplace. For all the squawking in our time over the term “slut” and the supposed prevelance of men everywhere forever and ever amen foisting it on unsuspecting women hither and yon, the cold bitter truth is that women utter this term aimed at other women, far and away moreso than men ever do. My point?
Women engage in these kinds of character assassinations all the time, and you, as a woman, know this better than i do. Yet few if any women actually DO anything to stop it. Sure, weve all heard about the atomized example of the lone women whove called out her feminine circle on these things, but of course, since it happened out of our line of sight and out of earshot, we are simply to take such florence nitengales at their blessed word.
Meanwhile, the dannys of the world continue to get cut to shreds at their places of work.
As far as im concerned, any woman who does not vociferously speak out against such things and puts her frenemies on blast for such behavior are most definitely part of the problem.
What side are YOU on, aya?
O.
@val:
I think youre arguing a strawman since i thought i made it clear that women do not have to stay with a man who doesnt enjoy kissing much. I thought i made that crystal clear.
But since youre keen on barking up this particular tree, allow me to hit you with this: its my view that men have bent over way too much backwards in (often vain) efforts to “please” women. I mean, could chuck have gotten away with writing a post for the good men project entitled “the lost art of fellatio”, aimed at women-many of whom, lets be brutally honest now, could do to bone up on their hummer-giving skills? I think to ask the question is to answer it-even while this is a venue that purports to have the best and real interests of men at heart. Every man reading this knows how important receiving oral sex is to men in general-are we seriously arguing that the vast majority of women are expert at it? Come on.
Yet, women are hardly chided about this (and a gazillion other things i might add) by men; chucks recounting of a woman coworker of his, cutting her former lover/coworker to ribbons, really tells one all they need to know on that score, now doesnt it? So much for the notion that women are the more “compassionate” sex…
My point again, is simply this: i thought the mens movement was an analog to the womens movement, which was about affording them maximum choice in their lives-without judgment, criticism or recrimination. But its becoming clearer and clearer to me that, at least as far as the good men project is concerned, the mens movement should be more concerned with what women do or dont think, than about actually working to give the legal, social and cultural space for guys to live their lives as they see fit.
What. A. Shame.
O.
Obsidian, talking about a behaviour doesn’t mean condone it or justify it. It’s about informing.
Telling that (most) women love and need good kissing, doesn’t mean approving that and “siding” with such women; it means informing the dudes what the ladies want.
Because, on average, dudes want to “score” with said ladies. 8)
(so, the more information, the better)
In the end, men and women want and need each other, so both need to know about the other.
This doesn’t mean “bent over backwards”, it means that if I want something from a woman, I need to give her something in exchange. That’s just plain fair.
In the end, relationships are based on mutual exchange. The better one is at it, the better his chances.
@val:
I think it is fair to say that the vast majority of adult aged men walking around and reading this blog know that women enjoy kissing more than do men; they may not know the evolutionary/scientific reasons for it, but i dont think they necessarily should in order to know what anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear can glean from the situation. Again, you are arguing a strawman.
Which brings me to my next point-i notice, with great satisfaction i might add, that you have failed to answer my “lost art of fellatio” question. Lets try this again:
Would chuck have been able to have an article entitled “the lost art of fellatio” published here at the good men project-given that this is a venue that purports to focus on the needs and interests of men, and as well, knowing how much men enjoy (and i would go so far as to say, need) fellatio in their romantic lives? Chuck could offer the same or better scientific evidence and findings to back this up (i know i could)-yet, i think we both know the answer to that one, dont we-which explains why you dodged my question in the first place-and which only serves to buttress my point:
That this isnt about “mutual” anything; once again, its about men needing to please women, with the vain hope that it will be reciprocated in kind. Just for kicks, im tempted to write such a piece myself just to see if it will get by the gmp politburo…
O.
Obsidian, you might be surprised by how many men still don’t know (or don’t get) what the ladies like.
Regarding “the lost art of fellatio” hypothesis, I cannot answer because I’m NOT part of the GMP editorial staff (I’m just a reader and, sometimes, a contributor).
Personally, I’d like such an article.
And I think something like that has been published here.
Regarding the “need to please”, i myself published an article here, where I said that being a “good man” doesn’t mean “making women happy”; you might like it.
http://goodmenproject.com/men-and-feminism/the-end-of-feminism-as-i-knew-it/
But it seems to me you’re going on your “crusade” without really listening to other POVs, so there cannot be real dialogue.
@val:
For some reason my replies to you appear at the bottom of the thread. My bad.:(
O.
What that woman did was horrible. She is perfectly within her rights to choose her partners based on whatever criteria she likes, however shallow, but spreading word around a workplace about something like that is social violence, plain and simple. If that’s normal or acceptable (and the way you write about about suggests that you, at least, find it to be so), then it’s high time for ‘normal’ and ‘acceptable’ to go off and join the Wallace. It seems to me that this kind of harassment is a much more serious issue than vague generalizations on the relative importance of kissing supported with a command of scientific information that would be unacceptable even in undergraduate work.
Additionally, having expounded on the importance of kissing, what exactly do you suggest men do about this? If, as you imply, poor kissing is such a big deal-breaker, how is anyone ever supposed to get good at it? Furthermore, by what criteria do you determine that it’s men who are failing in this regard? Perhaps the women in question are themselves terrible kissers and therefore elicit only a lukewarm response in their partners, or perhaps they are simply unwilling to communicate what they like or give their partners time to learn it. You have hardly exhausted all avenues of inquiry and this piece reads more like a recitation of stereotypes than anything of intellectual merit.
Also on full display are double standards regarding sexual ability. In our society it is expected that a woman has done enough just by being and the idea of reproaching her for her technique or demanding that she alter or improve it to suit her partner are anathema to our discourse on sexuality. A man, in contrast, is expected to work for the pleasure of his partner and must exist in a constant fear of being found wanting. Your own article makes it perfectly clear that this sort of public shaming is both powerful and accepted. To provide a personal anecdote, I have a serious aversion to any touch beyond hand holding, especially with women, on account of a long period of physical abuse at the hands of female social workers. I know several women with similar issues, and none of them ever have difficulty finding partners willing to work with them on their issues and take things slowly. I can tell you from experience that a man making the same request receives only scorn.
your cup of tea is just that,yours! i am touched by women inappropriately at times on the court and in play and they get by with it,mainly due to a double standard in the culture. And sometimes women will walk in the Men’s room at busy venues and walk by us helplessly dangling our business to use our stalls- ??! imagine if a man did that!! he would -peer out behind bars- and the real difference between harassment and flirting is simply– this with flirting …she likes you :>}
@val:
Im all for dialogue; its just unfortunate that certain topics are considered “off the topic” of debate in these parts. My hypothetical “the lost art of fellatio” article highlights this point.
Which reminds me: since by your own admission youre a reader and sometime contributor to gmp, i must ask: why do you think such a piece hasnt appeared here in some three years since its founding? Yet, pieces in the same vein as the one we are chatting about, the tone is one where men are again, misshapen vessels in need of correction. At what point do we have an honest discussion about our needs and interests, unfiltered and unimpeded by the school marms of of polite (feminist informed) society?
The very fact that you cant cite one such article along the lines of my hypothetical one should really say it all on this score; that the reverse abounds here, again really speaks volumes.
A “crusade” you say? Actually, i prefer the term “jihad”-because i am indeed striving for a cause:to speak clearly, authoritatively, in my own voice, as to what it means to be a man in our time. And im finding that the very existence of such a voice is offputting, to the very people who claim to want to hear it.
You cant make this kind of hypocrisy up.
Finally: no, i wouldnt be surprised because i maintain that even highschool aged boys know the deal when it comes to kissing: most women really like it. All im saying is that if a man doesnt like to do it he shouldnt be shamed or browbeat into doing it either-just like we dont shame or browbeat women into being the next nina hartley or superhead…
O.
@val:
Furthermore: i maintain that to the contrary, its my povs that arent given space; i am inundated with just about every pov under the sun; yet i hardly ever see my pov being represented, and again the venue is ostensibly put there for guys like me(!). What is up with that?
Im a very openminded and tolerant guy but its not without limit; not when everybody elses pov can get their due but not mine.
O.
@Obsidian: “why do you think such a piece hasnt appeared here in some three years since its founding?”
Dunno. Maybe nobody has thought about it?
Why don’t you write it and propose to the GMP? That would be definitive proof of their openness – or lack of it.
Kissing is only one of many things that seem to deaden men to women and their individual uniqueness and sexuality vs the porn culture that too many men saturate themselves in. If men spent time reading about and learning about REAL women and informative sexuality material instead of looking at porn, I think we would see WAY more successful men with women. Instead of men that keep deadening themselves by using porn as a substtitute.
True. Porn is mass disinformation.