Katarina Ilic goes on a short rant about how soon is too soon when first dating.
Originally published on SNSPost.com
Will you allow me to go on a little rant for a minute?
I’m “Love & Sex” Editor at SNSPost in Belgrade, Serbia. I’m in my early 30’s and single. I have the desire to have a partner in life, to meet someone I’d like to spend the rest of my life, i.e. to “do” life together. I’m not desperate to do this nor dying to get married, rather, I’m enjoying my life exactly as it is and I’m committed to living it to the fullest, in line with my truth and highest self.
What does that mean? It means that I’ve been completely open to meeting men, going out on dates, enjoying getting to know them and just having fun, without any pressure. It does NOT mean that I’m into hooking up and casual sex. That being said, I’ve noticed something that just “chafes my ass” {I know, so ladylike and feminine of me, but that’s the phrase that comes to mind.}
I’ve had the experience with some men, after only a couple of times of seeing each other, their next “date” suggestion entails a movie or dinner at his place or mine. Really?!?!
When a man suggests this, especially before we’ve had the chance to really get to know each other, I’m thinking: “He’s interested in one thing and that’s getting into my pants.”
Is that all you have to offer, men? I believe you can do better than that. And more importantly, for me, I want better than that for myself.
What about going out and doing something fun together? Really getting to know each other and experiencing things together. Even if it doesn’t head towards a serious relationship, what about just enjoying getting to know another human being at a soul and heart level, sharing, learning and growing?
I’m not saying that all the planning has to be “on him” or that a ton of money has to be spent on extravagant nights out. Just be a little creative, put in a little effort. A couple of years ago, I went out with a guy who was on a budget. He picked me up and presented me with 3 envelopes, each one contained a card with a different “date” idea on it, all costing less than $50. He asked me to pick one of the envelopes, not knowing what was written on the inside, and that was how we were going to spend our date. It was extremely creative, thoughtful and fun! (Sidenote: he lived in a different city over an hour away, so he actually had to put in a little time and research to come up with these three ideas).
You can certainly ask a woman for ideas and input or just listen, get to know her, and you will find out what she likes and doesn’t like. Living in Belgrade, Serbia, there are plenty of cool things to do here and fantastic events going on. So much more than just hanging out at his place or mine. Which, of course, can be really nice as well, but after we’ve gotten to know each other and it’s a natural progression.
I want people in my life, whether it will be just a friendship or develop into something more, who want to spend time with me because of who I am, not because they’re hoping to get something (like an orgasm) from me.
So that’s my little rant. What do you think? I’d love to hear your thoughts on this.
I was going to ask: “Do you think I’m being irrational and too hard?” But you know what? Back to what I said earlier, I’m committed to living in line with my truth and highest self. So if something makes me uncomfortable, I have to honor that. It doesn’t really matter what anyone else thinks.
I hope you do the same. Live in line with your heart and deepest desires.
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photo: beograd / flickr
About Katarina Ilic
This article has very strong overtones of boring old Victorian prudishness. Somehow her “highest self.” is defined by making a man wait for sex. I.e. not being a slut. *yawn*. I was expecting more stimulating reading.
Ouch! Haha…that’s ok, this is good for me. I like the challenge to be a better writer. But your comment makes me think….ok so women who have sex early on or with too many people, are called sluts…..and women who like to wait to have sex, wait for a certain period of time to pass or for a certain other connection to be evident, are boring and prudes? Why do we feel the need to label one another? Why not just let people “BE” and allow them to “BE” whatever they choose to be in any given moment. Which from day to day, year to year, can change and evolve as they change and evolve as people.
I think he’s trying to highlight how WOMEN especially place these demands on themselves in what they want to be seen as. When I hear a woman saying she wants to wait longer for a sexual relationship, is it because she simply desires more of a connection with the person somehow or is it because she doesn’t want to be seen as a slut? Same if she wants to go quick? Who is placing this burden on these women? I can’t recall the last time I’ve heard my guy friends speak negatively of a woman who was easy to get into bed, they’re more likely to think negatively of women that make them wait and 99% of the times I hear “slut” being thrown around it’s by women against other women. Now obviously I know it’s not just women that do and say these things but I wonder why some women do this to other women? I really hope women who hate being called a slut don’t say it about others. Who are the people thinking of women as prudes and sluts the most?
I agree with you, Archy, as I said above, I think name-calling and labeling is extremely unnecessary. And what you said is so important, we should each as individuals evaluate our choices and actions. Are we holding back because, like you said we’re afraid of being considered a slut, or is it because we want more of a connection prior to having sex. If our actions and choices come from true heart desires, then they are empowered choices. Anything else is limiting and leaves you powerless.
I found the article thought provoking in trusting yourself. If it feels wrong you obviously won’t move forward with someone. It’s not about counting the dates.
Well, there is a difference between not wanting to move forward with someone because it feels wrong to you and shaming men for feeling it’s right for them to move forward. Accusing men who (by her interpretation of what a dinner data at his or her place really means – no possibility that it can mean something else?) suggests moving forward of just being after one thing -getting in her pants – is the latter. Yet she is entitled enough to think, nay, demand that they should put some time and effort into entertaining her with creative and thoughtful dates. She says that planning a date may not be “all on him” – a woman can drop hints or the man can ask her for ideas. She acknowledges that the dates need not be extragavant and expensive, but nowhere does she mention the possibility of going dutch. The date being something she likes is a requirement, being something the man likes does not get a mention. To me this sounds very much like “all on him”.
She says:
I find it quite ironic that the only aspects of men she has described is how good (or bad) they are at providing something (entertaining dates) to her. No men was described as being someone she wanted to spend time with because of who they are, not because she thought the put enough effort and thought into dates she enjoyed. I sure hope she’s not so one-sided as this rant of her sounds, but if she is then that may explain why men only go for one thing from her.
My suggestion the next time she finds herself asked on a dinner-at-home date she doesn’t want to go on is to offer to treat the guy to a date on her to somewhere she knows he will enjoy (surely she has listened to him and knows by now what he likes and doesn’t like).
Exactly, Rachel. I don’t think I mentioned anywhere in the article that there is a certain date threshold that must be reached (although if some people have that, that’s fine, too). It’s just that in these couple of instances (which do not reflect my dating experience as a whole), it didn’t seem like the natural progression AT ALL. Which leads me to believe, these men weren’t “feeling” me, but rather pushing their own agenda. Which, sure, you can’t fault them for trying. And like Tamen said, they shouldn’t be shamed for feeling it’s right for them to move forward.
And this to me brings up a really interesting point. When it comes to relationship between 2 people, any kind of relationship, if something feels right for one person, but not the other, I wonder if that means you are just in different places and aren’t really on the same page. OR does it mean that one of you is not being Present and feeling the other person? I’ve noticed this in conversation with friends, family, whoever….when one person brings up a topic that the other person clearly doesn’t care to discuss or isn’t interested in. If you’re present in that moment, and to that person, you can and will connect and the conversation will flow. But if you’re just thinking about how you want to get this particular thought or idea out, then you’re just pushing your own agenda.
So in these particular cases, with these men, it just felt like they were pushing their own agenda and not “flowing” with me as a person. That to me feels inconsiderate. Again, no shame, just an observation. Perhaps we would all have better relationships of all kinds if we worked on being present.
I have to admit, I sort of come down on the side of Austin on this one.
I’m glad to see women knowing what they want and not bowing to pressure to jump into bed with someone they aren’t attracted to, but it does set up the tired old meme of ‘men only want sex’ and ‘women only want love.’ I expected a little more depth of thinking in a 30-year old who’s the “Love and Sex” editor of a newspaper.
Firstly, great casual sex is nothing to sniff at, and it can be as life-enriching as any amount of friendly dinner and a chat.
It is also a great generalization of men that is, in my experience (a whole lot older than the writer) generally untrue. Perhaps in her culture, men are brought up to believe they have to get their conquest. I’m not sure. But my experience has been that good casual sex is rather hard to come by with men after a certain age. They get clingy, they want to nest, just as much as many women I have met.
The other thing that I feel needs mentioning is that different people have different ways of ‘getting to know you’ and as methods go, sex isn’t actually that bad a way of finding out if your compatible with someone. When people get ‘naked’ they tend to get ‘naked’ in a lot of ways. You find out a LOT more about a naked man than one wearing a nice suit.
I’m not suggesting that women should put up with being bullied or pressured into sex, or that having other social experiences aren’t also valuable for getting to know someone, but this article holds up sex as something more than it really needs to be. And I think this is at the root cause of a lot of the stress that comes with dating someone new. It’s really time we pulled sex off its pedestal and started considering it in a less hyperbolic manner. It’s just sex.
“But my experience has been that good casual sex is rather hard to come by with men after a certain age.”
As usual women want “good” sex while we men just want sex. Because most men (myself included) feel ALL sex is good. It is good, better, best….
Now, about the article.
I do not feel what she is seeking is unreasonable. I do tend to agree that we need to “pull sex off its pedestal.” But it is women who continue to argue that sex has to be “emotional.” I don’t buy this argument. Most women want to have sex with men whom they see as attractive and likable, period. The emotional thingy is secondary to most women, in my view. However, we men are constantly berated for our sexual desires…..Of course I want your pants AND panties off!!!!
I am high libido (oversexed) guy. No apologies. I love sex. While I do not objectify women, I certainly enjoy passionate sex with them. It does feel great. Like a crack addict, I need my sex. I do have to a woman to have sex with her.
Just because she has a pretty face and a nice ass is not good enough for me. I have to get to know her as a person. Is she a good person or a liar? Is she intelligent? Does she have a lively personality etc…..I do seek quality in my women.
Maybe it is the quality she is seeking, first. Though I think she is asking way too much of an American man. I cannot speak for the typical Serbian man.
“As usual women want “good” sex while we men just want sex. Because most men (myself included) feel ALL sex is good. It is good, better, best….”
Because for many women the range is bad, boring, good, better, best. So why would anyone want the bad, boring? If you all are having good as your baseline (any sex is good) and if for women “any sex” can range from painful (no warm up, chemistry etc) to boring (we might as well not be there all he wants is a lay) to onwards…I figure a lot of women are gonna want the actual “good” sex.
Herein lies one of the world’s great problems.
@Julie -
I do not disagree with you. I was simply noting “one of the world’s great problems.” But, we have made sex far to complicated in America. Outside the US, sex and sexuality are viewed differently.
Most men just do not get the “bad, boring” aspect of sex for women. Why? Too few men really understand female sexuality. It’s far more complicated than male sexuality. Also, we men “just assume” what women want sexually. I simply ask. You have so many non-orgasmic women who are turned off because their partners/husbands cannot, do not, or will not take the time to get them to orgasm. So the sex act is “bad, boring.”
So, yes all things considered, women will want the “good” sex.
Yep. If a man is after the “old in and out” of course most women will probably find that unsatisfying. If they aren’t interested in asking, or the woman isn’t responsible enough for telling (what they want), the yeah it may wind up not so good for the chick.
“Too few men really understand female sexuality. It’s far more complicated than male sexuality.”
I think this absolute rubbish, personally. This is a sentiment that’s all wrapped up in the idea that women are somehow more complicated than men (emotionally, biologically, etc). And it’s just not true.
The U.S. can make women’s sexuality seem more complicated in the ways that it discourages women from actually understanding their own sexual desires. And if everyone was a little more knowledgeable about the biology of the female genitalia, it’d make it less complicated. It’s not that women’s sexuality is more complicated, it’s that we’ve attached all this cultural baggage to it that makes it seem more complicated.
@HeatherN
I wholeheartedly agree. My sense is that the ‘complicatedness’ of women’s sexuality is simply a product of, as you say, cultural baggage.
Calling it “cultural baggage” does not make it untrue. Whatever the reasons, a woman’s sexuality, in the culture we live in, is more complicated. You can point to other cultures where it has been different, or invent hypothetical ones that sound great, but that doesn’t mean that in our culture, men and women’s sexuality is the same.
A few comments above, there is ulra-strong, open-minded, feminist Julie G. pointing out to a man who described the man’s sex spectrum as good-better-best, that women also have “bad” and “boring” at the lesser end of that spectrum, and who would want to have that? I think as a description of overall trends (i.e., not rigid descriptions with no exceptions), they’re both right. Men tend to consider far less sex to be worth passing up on the chance it will be bad or boring, while that’s more of factor in sexual behavior for women. Guess what – that’s an example of sexuality being more complicated for women than men. You might even call it an essential difference, if you can resist defining “essential” in absolute, prescriptive terms.
If women’s sexuality is the same as men’s, then an article like this should sound like it could have just as easily come from a man as a woman. But it doesn’t remotely sound like that. Men don’t routinely write about how women expect sex after too few dates, and how women who have sexual interest in them should first impress them through non-sexual creativity like coming up with a cute pick-a-date thing. (Nice idea, btw.) That sounds like a woman all the way, because we know, based on the culture we swim in (even though the writer happens to live in Serbia), that this is a female way of looking at sexuality, not male.
Look up an old article published here by Charlie Capen, a funny/painful piece titled “Why Won’t My Wife Have Sex With Me?” (I may have that wrong by a word or two.) With very few exceptions, the women’s comments were about ways he should be understanding or do more things for his wife. The women did not suggest the wife bore any responsibility for him being unsatisfied, or that maybe she should occasionally just do something for him (hand job, blow job, etc.) because it’s nice to make the person you love feel good, even if you’re not in the mood. Can you seriously imagine that same pattern with the genders flipped? If sexuality is the same regardless of gender, where are the articles by wives bemoaning the husbands who lose interest in sex after kids, and a bunch of men telling them how the way to re-kindle that is interest to first be patient, and second give him more footrubs and do more chores to get him feeling frisky again? It doesn’t happen, or when it does, it looks silly, not like just another unsurprising example of men and women being essentially different.
I don’t know if “complicated” is the best word for describing it, because there’s a sort of a connotation that less complicated is better, or that the there’s a dichotomy of complicated and simple, which I dont’ agree with. Whatever adjectives we pick, though, it boggles my mind that people continue to argue that sexuality is essentially the same for men and women. It’s not. And even the most ardent feminists give examples of how it’s not over and over and over again. (Often right before they say it’s the same.)
Great, Marcus. I couldn’t agree more.
As much as I’d like men and women being more in tune and getting along just fine, we are NOT the same, and our sexuality is not the same.
Just having different sexual organs, and a (somehow) different brain workings, should make this clear.
Besides, apart from “shopping for genes” (like men do), women also go “shopping for resources”: and that adds another layer of complexity and – often – contradiction; it’s a whole different ballgame.
To me, believing that men and women’s sexuality is pretty much the same, sounds like wishful thinking.
Marcus, men write about the opposite in general. The lack of sex, the waiting for sex, the I have to jump through hoops just to receive sex/affection. The lack of sex making me feel unloved, undesired, etc. I’m not sure anymore if female sexuality is actually more complicated vs just being different. But are we including dating in sexuality? or just sex itself? Eg, do we include the level of attraction gained from dating which helps boost sexual attraction? Some women needing more dates to get that “emotional” connection”, is this to be included? Then we need to include other factors into male sexuality such as what attracts him, how complicated it can get.
Complications in male sexual attraction, well I’ll use myself as an example. In my first few times I felt I was ready for sex and wanted her but during sex I started to get turned off, something about touching her in particular was freaking me out and I wanted to leave. Worrying about her feelings when it suddenly hit me that she liked me far more than I liked her, but also that she was quite “clingy” to my standards. Trying to get up after sex to get a drink with her still holding my arm bothered me A LOT. You see up until that point I had very little human contact/touch, rarely got hugged and I went from being someone who was alone quite a lot of the time to meeting someone I knew online, kissing her (my first kiss) and having sexual activity in the first day (my first sexual activity).
The next few days we fooled around etc but by the second or third I was freaking out because I didn’t feel the same for her, I thought I did like her but now I was left confused, turned off (to the high level of touching needed), being absolutely petrified of telling her how I feel because I didn’t want to break her heart. It’s still one of the toughest things I’ve done, I’ve never felt so bad in my life than the moment I told her I was confused and didn’t feel the same.
Now isn’t that all a huge amount of complication of my sexuality? Would it be similar for some men? Wanting and desiring to be touched but not too much, feeling attracted to someone and then losing it when you’re with them? Being so eager for sex then realizing it’s too fast, too soon, too much physical contact and you overload and want to literally back away and not be touched. Yet I hear I was supposed to totally love it as a man, want more even if I wasn’t attracted to her.
I think men are more complicated when it comes to sexuality than people assume. Sexual dysfunction for instance can be a huge kill to the ego and highly confusing, performance anxiety, medication side effects, etc where you may orgasm too early, be flaccid, or not orgasm at all. I had the latter, difficulty orgasming due to medication which was extremely frustrating and tiring, an hour long BJ gets BORING and annoying when you can’t have that happy ending.
So is male sexuality less complicated than female sexuality? or do we just not talk about it much? I only hear certain aspects of male sexuality usually and it doesn’t apply to us all, hell if you wanna see complex then try figure out why we are so attracted to certain body parts, certain clothing styles, certain sizes and shapes and the fact that it’s pretty random.
I agree with you, Archy, and though I didn’t spend as many words developing this point as others, you do a good job of elaborating what I meant by not really liking to frame it in terms of “complicated”, which tends to imply that if women are “more complicated”, that means men are “simple”. I completely agree that men’s sexuality is complicated, too, so rather than argue about whose is more – like it’s a competition – my main point is that whatever the complications are, men and women are different.
The jumping off point for my comment wasn’t the original post, but the two comments immediately before mine opining that a statement about women having more complicated sexualities was bunk. Perhaps I don’t really disagree if all they meant was men are also complicated (sexually) – just different. The way I read it at the time, though, I took it to mean that men and women have basically the same kind of sexuality (libidos, hang-ups, ranges of pleasure, preferences, etc.) and it’s just bogus cultural conditioning that makes us think any different. That’s the vibe I’ve gotten a lot elsewhere, but perhaps I jumped the gun if that’s not what was meant in this case. I can be onboard with “different complexity”, but not that gender differences – sexual or otherwise – are mere cultural delusions.
No probs. I think we’re on the same page.
I so agree with you, Marcus! We are not the same. I’m all for equality but we are not the same….as you said, for obvious reasons such as our sexual organs and women can carry and deliver babies, men cannot….our hormones are different, etc. etc. Neither male nor female is better, we’re just different and I think it would be much better if we embraced and celebrated the difference, trying to understand one another, as opposed to trying to be the same.
Personally I’ve never found casual sex to be that enjoyable. It takes me awhile to trust a guy and relax enough to have truly enjoyable sex. The casual sex I’ve had in my life has always been kind of “meh” even when I was totally turned on (initially). That’s just me. I realize every woman is different. But after playing around a bit in my younger years, now that I’m a little older, I have zero desire for casual hookups. This is not because I’m a prude or want to wait for a Relationship or anything. It’s just in my experience, casual sex has been less than thrilling even in the best situations. If I know a guy well, it’s much easier to work on having great sex. If it’s a casual hookup, and the sex turns out to be a disappointment, it feels like a total waste of time.
Yeah, back in the days when I had the opportunities for such, the experience was always mediocre at best and waste of time at worst. Like…well, that just happened, X hours I won’t get back. Mostly it’s because the entire experience seemed individually self interested (neither partner caring all that much about the experience of the other) but also just…physically awkward. I get it, for me it’s apparently always good even with awkward stuff going on, but for me, it just wasn’t very much fun in general. Like I said, it’s a conundrum.
@Julie –
What is a bit baffling for me is just why do so many women do casual sex if it so awful as you say? Just asking.
What about the booty calls? Do they only go out to the guys that provide”good” sex? Or can anyone scratch her itch?
I suppose I did it because I wanted to see if I could do it, because maybe in the moment you have high expectations of great sex, because you are tired of not having sex and you think, hey I can have sex! Right now! and then it’s just not so good. Because they feel like prudes if they don’t?
Were I do attempt something now, it would be more of a FWB situation I guess, with someone I actually liked and had a bit of chemistry. “Taking a lover” comes to mind, an actual ongoing sexual relationship that isn’t necessarily an emotional relationship, but that is good, sexually.
Dunno. Just doesn’t seem like much fun (late night, half drunk, 90 minutes of meh).
@Julie-
FWB is ALL I do these days. I “visit” two friends from time to time. Not at the same time of course. We have known one another for several years. Neither lady has been married. They are well educated and professional women who simply do not desire a relationship.
I find this arrangement most suitable to me. Obviously, they feel the same. Always safe sex and we know we are not monogamous. It’s all open and honest. We have common interest and enjoy time together. A relationship would kill the friendship.
I spent over 12 years in a near sexless marriage. Now at 49, I just want to live a sexually healthy life. Is that too much to ask for? In all honesty, I was not cut out for marriage and women change after marriage. I love the “taking a lover” phrase.
Good luck.
I usually had casual sex because I was horny. I wanted it. But the outcome was always disappointing and I generally felt the ecperience was not worth it in retrospect. Again , I’m only speaking for myself.
I agree, Sarah, that has been my experience as well. If I’m in need of just an orgasm, I can do that pretty well myself in about 5 minutes flat and then be about my day….haha. Sure, it could be much more exciting with a man, but (for me) it’s not that fulfilling unless there is connection on other levels, too. I get turned on when a man (ok, not just any man) shows genuine interest in me as a person, as a soul. So like I said, if it’s just sex, without anything else, I haven’t found that to be very fulfilling at all.
I should also mention that by casual sex I mean a hookup with someone I don’t know well. I had a FWB relationship for several years that was satisfying but that was different. We were close friends as well as lovers.
Personally, I think it depends upon both people to decide when sex is right in a dating cycle. It sounds to me like Katarina just has different – some would say “higher” – standards. I think I understand where she’s coming from. The physical aspects of a relationship can be a bit complicated, certainly, but I think the mental and emotional elements are much more prone to getting tangled. Sex – even good sex – is generally just a matter of attention, timing, and biomechanics. I don’t mean to play it down too much; I love sex like most men do. I have a significant drive to have sex, but if I’m really interested in a relationship I pay more attention to the person first. I’ve been told I move “too slowly” in dating someone – once even by a woman. That’s fair, too, but it’s just preferences again. There are a bunch of caveats here, potentially, but to try and keep this relatively short, Katarina, you have your personal preference and that’s about all there is to it. Plenty of other people have sex as soon as the second or even first date and go on to have enjoyable, fulfilling relationships.
She’s not “making the man wait for sex”, she’s simply doing what feels right to her. If the man wants instant sex, why would he bother taking her on a date? that’s what I don’t get about men! If you want easy sex, why waste everyone’s time and money by going on a date? Why not just be honest about what you’re looking for and stop blaming the woman for not giving you the sex that you want. You could have just said up front that you’re looking for sex, isn’t that only fair?
What if they want both “easy sex” and the CHANCE at finding love? What’s with all the black n white, this or that thinking people! Who’s to say the guy looking for some sex now isn’t also looking for love? Think of it this way, if he wants sex and gets it, great, if he also wants to date and try find love then great. If he takes a woman on a date, had sex with her but for some reason it didn’t work out then oh well hopefully he and her were fulfilled in some way by the sex, AND the date itself (yes men can enjoy dates surprise surprise) and he can continue dating for whatever reason.
Not all men want the same thing, that’s what you don’t get I presume. Some men want quick an easy sex, some want that + to find love somewhere along the way, some want to wait, some don’t want sex.
Remittance Girl is 100% right on the mark!
I was expecting an article about waiting until things are “right” (how does one determine that?) before sleeping together. Yes, casual sex can be ok, but if a person wants a relationship, I think it’s best to wait. In my case, being a highly sexual person who is about to start dating again (as well as a woman of a certain age!) I have decided NOT to go to bed with anyone until we’ve been out or hung out 10 times. Yes, it’s an arbitrary number. Why, you ask? Because my sexuality tends to then be the focus of the relationship and it’s distracting and confusing to both of us. I know the kind of person I want in my life. Because of hot sex and chemistry I recently spent 5 years with the least spiritual person I ever met, but boy did I love him, and boy did we have a lot of sex! I don’t regret it, but it was a long detour! I think waiting for sex (especially if you are borderline nympho) is a really good idea. For my part, I want to make sure a man really likes who I am as a person, all my quirks, my weird sense of humor, can tolerate and understand my weepy PMS days….. all that! Maybe this author feels the same way. There are a lot of reasons to wait, and it’s not necesarily making the man wait, as one commentor said, sometimes it’s making yourself wait! – Alexa M.
Well you could end up finding out on the 10th date that sex is terrible with the new partner, a few months may have passed. Could also lose a decent guy who just doesn’t wait to wait for 10 dates. Some people have an arbitary number on how many dates to go on before it has to lead somewhere, 10 dates would start to push it for me bigtime I think. That’s a lot of time to go through without reaching the next step. Just hope you are aware of this, personally I’d ignore the whole x number of dates and go with the flow. People that have had sex on the first date can still fall in love, get married, live long n happy lives together. It MAY be a good idea to tell the person how many dates before any sex happens as well, impressions count and waiting n waiting could indicate to someone (who can only guess at this point) that sex isn’t important to you.
Personally I’d like people to tell me on the first or second date if they have a no sex till marriage policy, because I wouldn’t wait around as it conflicts with my own desires (no marriage until I know our sex lives + everything else are compatible). I could only imagine how annoying it’d be to be waiting half a year, a year, or until marriage to have sex when I myself want a relationship that includes a great sex life before even THINKING about marriage.
Someone earlier mentioned why do “men” waste time dating if they want instant sex, I could ask why do some women waste time in a relationship/dating without committing to sex? Why don’t they say upfront no sex till X number of dates/whatever? Both are legitimate desires, to know what the other person desires is important. I wouldn’t be put off by hearing someone explain on a first date about waiting or not waiting, I’d be impressed with their honesty and if we are so mismatched in what we desire I’d rather learn earlier so we could both go find someone better suited to us.
That’s been my experience, as well, Alexa. That if the physical happens too soon, before a connection on other levels has been made, then it becomes the focus and you’re sort of blinded by the sex. And if you’re looking for a committed relationship, this could be bad because now you’re with someone you might not even be compatible with on other levels.
I can understand the need to vent and that may be why she is coming off so strong about the guys she’s had experience with. But that being said:
Is that all you have to offer, men? I believe you can do better than that. And more importantly, for me, I want better than that for myself.
I do have a bit of a problem with this part here. It seems to imply that since those guys are interested in sex they are somehow “not as good” as men who don’t so such interest. Having an interest in sex doesn’t make a man good or bad and I don’t think it reflects on how good or bad the woman he is showing sexual interest in is either. Maybe if instead of “better” the word of choice was “more” or “something different”. The wording like this seems to say that sexual interest is a mark against those guys.
I stand corrected. Point taken, Danny.
Tick, tock, tick, tock.
“Too few men really understand female sexuality. It’s far more complicated than male sexuality.”
Probably because too few women understand their sexuality. In the US society is both fixated, fascinated and frustrated and fearful of sex and sexuality. Anything that is not understood because it is not explored or talked about openly and honestly is complicated.
Here is a thought though the next time the original poster finds herself facing such a situation if it makes her uncomfortable or implies in her mind she is not comfortable with or ready for state that upfront and suggest an alternative a picnic in a park or some other budget friendly conversation inducing interaction provoking activity. Give the man the benefit of doubt and see if the assumption that all he wants is sex is true or if maybe there is something else. He may just be out of ideas for things to do.
Ok there is a bit of an issue here that seems to be ignored.
If I’m looking for a romantic partner… I’m not looking for just a friend.
Every guy here probably has a story similar ot the following: A guy meets a girl he can talk to who is attractive, exciting and seems interested in him. He teases out of her that that the attraction is mutual. (Either he asks her point blank or she sends very strong signals). However, she wants to get to know the guy better before getting more intimate. So they date for a few months. Things progress for a bit but every time they stop. Then she tells the guy, “I love spending time with you but feel unsure about a physical relationship.” So saying especially now that 4 or 5 months have passed. The guy feels duped and even a friendship relationship is ruined.
Most guys have female friends for converation and companionship but not romance. The reason why the guys want to have sex early rather than late isn’t just male libido. (If I need to get off I have porn and my hand, thank you very much.) Most guys: A. Don’t want to waste time dating a woman who isn’t interested romantically with them. B. Would rather be spending there time with women who ARE interested in them.
The rule of thumb I received is:
A. You don’t date friends. Friends pay their own way and have to come up with as many interesting places to go as you do.
B. A true friend will not prevent you from finding a romantic partner. If you are with someone who isn’t interested but wont get out of the way… they are not a friend.
C. If you aren’t being intimate by the fourth date or the fourth week, she isn’t interested in you and your efforts are bested spent on someone else.
D. If you are not having sex with her you do not have a romantic relationship.
I know these sound pretty harsh but especially for soft romantic guys this is the only way to be sure.
“The guy feels duped and even a friendship relationship is ruined.”
You’re right. He HAS been duped! A woman knows from hour one after meeting a man if she is going to sex him. Anyone or any woman who says otherwise is full of crap.
It does not take 5 months! I guarantee you during the 5 months she was more than likely sexing someone. Just not you.
I really do not get this lack of honesty by many women. If you’re not interested have enough class/decency to let the guy know.
True, usually I can sex someone within an hour of meeting them. Though that’s not always the case for particularly androgynous people.
(Yeah, I’m being a bit of a pill).
I disagree, it could take me far more than 4 dates to decide if I want to have sex with a guy.
Oh having sex…I thought he was talking about sexing (i.e. determining the sex of someone).
It could.
But let’s be honest. Most women can tell within a few hours or less. I am not saying she will have sex with him, like now. But, she know if he is someone she would have sex with.
@HeatherN…I think you need a nap:)-
I was just being snarky about the way you used the word “sexing.” Apologies.
Also, no that’s not always true. Really. Seriously. Honest to goodness. I can’t always tell whether a person is someone I’ll have sex with or not. Sometimes the initial physical attraction isn’t there, but people become more attractive once I get to know them. I’ve developed a crush on someone I’ve known for years…never any sexual attraction before that, not even my physical type, so to speak…but after getting to know her for years I was suddenly attracted to her.
Also, let’s be completely honest here, often a person isn’t always aware of whether they’re attracted to someone or not. So there’s that too.
The things is, if you are looking for we are talking about
enthusiastic consent… Then a lack of initial physical attraction is a no.
One other point. If two people are just hanging around that isn’t starting the clock. The clock starts from a declaration of intent: asking someone out on a date,asking someone to go home with you, or telling someone you are attracted to them.
(I say this because I might be hanging around with a girl as a friend for months but once I tell her how I feel things progress quickly. When we talk about when we got together I think of how long since I told her how I felt. She sometimes talks about how long we have hung out.. So we very differing dates.)
By the same token- if things don’t process after the declaration…. next.
Terence said that “a woman knows within one hour of meeting a man,” whether she’s going to have sex with him. I’m saying, no that’s not always the case. There are plenty of times when I don’t know whether I’d have sex with someone until long after I’ve met them. I was replying to that rather than your initial comment.
However, as for your initial comment…I’d say that: A. You most certainly can date friends. I’ve dated friends…it potentially makes being ‘just friends’ again impossible, but sometimes it’s worth it. B. True. C. Not true. Some women (or men) just aren’t very good at expressing physical intimacy. They may be interested, just not quite sure how to proceed. Or they could be under the impression that the man is supposed to make the first move. D. You most certainly can have a romantic relationship with out sex. My goodness, there are plenty of people out there who are unwilling to have sex until marriage (or until the 5th date, or until some other relationship milestone). It doesn’t mean it’s not romantic before that…romance isn’t just sex.
Here’s what I’ll say about those sorts of lists; they’re mostly rubbish. It’s about the individual you are with. Is she the type of person who has no problems having sex after a first date and showing physical intimacy, but she’s not doing those things with you? Well then maybe it’s because she’s not sexually attracted to you. Or maybe not. Is she the type of person who wants to wait until marriage and is a bit shy physically? Well then maybe she’s actually really interested in you, but she just doesn’t know how to tell you. Or maybe not. And similarly it’s about what you’re looking for. If you’re looking for a woman who’ll make the first move and have sex on the first date…then by all means don’t ask a woman out on a second date if she doesn’t have sex with you. I, personally, think that’s very limiting…but it’s valid to have whatever preferences you have.
This is why communication is so important. It’s important to communicate your desires, needs, wants, etc and it’s important for her to do the same.
I disagree, Terence. I have had experiences, one quite recently actually, where I didn’t find the guy that attractive from the start, but once we started to get to know each other…and as I mentioned above, he showed huge interest in me as a person….I ended up finding him extremely attractive. I still didn’t have sex with him, only because I knew it wasn’t going anywhere and I didn’t want to do that with someone it wasn’t going anywhere with….BUT we had some majorly intense make-out sessions that were pretty fun.
You just made Terence’s point. You weren’t initially attracted to the guy, and that never changed to the point that you changed your mind about having sex with him. Hopefully, you told this guy you knew it wasn’t going anywhere or leading to sex before engaging in these intense make-out sessions that you found so fun. Then your make-out sessions would be mutually agreed and understood to have limits. If you just led him on, though, keeping that “going nowhere” conclusion to yourself while he continued to get his hopes up (among other things), I think that would qualify as some pretty selfish teasing, to put it mildly.
@Marcus, yes, in this particular situation I did make it clear to him that it wouldn’t lead to sex and he was ok with that. But now, what if a woman is honest like that, tells a man she enjoys all the other stuff, but that it won’t lead to sex….and if he still continues to do “the other stuff” hoping that it will lead to sex, hoping that he’ll be able to change her mind, isn’t that his own issue then? I mean should a woman not even go there with a man if she knows it won’t lead to sex if that’s what he ultimately wants? See, this is where it could get complicated. Should two people not enjoy whatever it is that happens between them? Whatever they create together, even if it’s not sex?
@Katarina: “what if a woman is honest like that, tells a man she enjoys all the other stuff, but that it won’t lead to sex….and if he still continues to do “the other stuff” hoping that it will lead to sex [...]“?
Well, then it’s HIS own delusion – and none of the woman’s problem.
IMO, once you have spoken your truth, you’re no more responsible about other’s dreams or delusions. Of course, that’s true for all genders.
It’s not complicated, as long as everybody is clear about their need and agendas (it gets complicated when people just hopes instead of talking).
In other words, I’m all for honesty, and against mind-reading.
Does “other stuff” indicate oral/manual release? Are you defining sex as PIV?
“A woman knows from hour one after meeting a man if she is going to sex him. Anyone or any woman who says otherwise is full of crap.”
How can it be crap when it’s PERSONALLY happened with me otherwise. First of all, in that first hour, maybe sex wasn’t on the forefront of the mind. You could have met for professional reasons or have your mind elsewhere. Maybe during that hour, you’re interested in someone else or are in another relationship so you don’t initially notice that person. Maybe he doesn’t come off as that attractive initially, but after getting to know him better, you realize that he’s a cutie. Maybe something just ‘clicks’ years later and you see him in a different light (it might be rare, this has happened to me with a good friend).
@Aya: “How can it be crap when it’s PERSONALLY happened with me otherwise”
Well, on one hand you’re right: MANY things may happen, that change our sexual interest.
OTOH, I think the comment you mentioned, was referring to dating situations (the topic of the article): and, in those cases, usually (not always, but more often than not) the women decides early on when he’s “sex material” or not, when she feels attraction or not.
I did not like this article at all. I feel the author really thinks she’s the star of the show and men have to work for her attention. She will withhold sex now and she will withhold it when she is married. My mother was the same and it led to one unhappy marriage and inevitable divorce.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to have sex with someone. As a woman who thinks sexual chemistry is very important I would say, fuck now not later. A few times I have gotten to know men over quite a few dates which moved us from friends to girlfriend/boyfriend, no sex and really gotten to like them only to discover we didn’t work in the bedroom. That totally sucks. Women are not supposed to dump men because they suck at sex (and yes some men, like some women, genuinely suck, no amount of teaching or leading will help). it took me quite a while to extricate myself from these relationships and I felt like a superficial banshee for doing so. Women are supposed to not care much about that instead looking for good life partners etc. It’s bullshit. No one, man or woman deserves to spend their lives having shit sex.
Men, if you have gone out with someone for a few months and had no action 9 out of 10 times it means she is not attracted to you. I have had male friends in the past who I have really liked, even loved but I couldn’t change the fact that I wasn’t attracted to them. You can’t mess with attraction. Stop blaming women who won’t sleep with you, they will if they really want to. Move on to someone who will.
As another aside, my female friends who always wanted to make men wait for sex, had a number in their head, 6 dates, 10 dates whatever, the truth is they don’t actually like sex or they are prudish. They will always have an excuse for not having sex. That’s ok if you’re libido is on the low side but if sex is important to you I just wouldn’t bother getting involved. Sorry ladies.
I have to agree with you. Kikik
Also, I find the portrayal of sex as something men want and women withhold – a commodity to be bargained away for other things – to be offensive. As if women somehow suffer through it, in order to get something else in return – love, financial security, an ego boost.
I also find the assumption that having good sex is a burden placed on men to be unfair. Why? Because they have penises? The responsibility to give and receive pleasure is a mutual one. Women don’t have a right to just lie there and expect their male counterparts to ‘perform’.
At the core of this discussion is the issue of women taking responsibility for their own pleasure, and of men not being so satisfied with just any sex at all. And by both parties having a more sedate and realistic view of what sex is.
From reading this article, it seems to me that the writer is looking for, chiefly, an emotional relationship. So perhaps a better strategy is just to be very upfront about it and tell her potential dates that she isn’t looking for sex at all, but an emotional bond. If she simply takes sex off the table altogether, instead of using it as a possible reward down the line, she will end up spending time with me who are ALSO chiefly interested in an emotional bond. All the men who are only really interested in casual sex will drift away and look elsewhere.
I’ve always found that being blunt and honest about what you are after is good practice.
@remttance girl
“I’ve always found that being blunt and honest about what you are after is good practice.”
Me too!
I want to give you a high 5, especially for the “At the core of this discussion is the issue of women taking responsibility for their own pleasure, and of men not being so satisfied with just any sex at all. And by both parties having a more sedate and realistic view of what sex is. ” parts.
You rock, high 5.
@Kiki
Thanks for your simple honesty. Just wish more women would step up and do the same.
Women have sex with men who they find attractive and likable, period. Initially, the attractiveness is usually physical. However, it could be a man’s wallet too. It is whatever the woman says it is.
So, fellas if you are dating her for a month or so and no action, it’s time to move on my friends. If you are a high libido man, then it is very important to avoid low libido women…..There has to be a match or you are doomed.
Again, as I mentioned above, it’s not about withholding sex. It’s about whether or not it’s the natural progression for the 2 people involved.
The author sounds entitled and demanding. Her attitude screams “Me, me, ME!”.
Such high-maintenance people are often disappointing partners, focused on getting way more than giving.
Plus, a “Love & Sex” Editor who still keep on this old meme about “men only want one thing”…?
Please.
Lastly, what’s wrong with a dinner or movie at home? I love it. It’s cosy, relaxed and intimate. And it doesn’t necessarily involve sex; it can be just two people enjoying a dinner or cuddling on the couch.
If you need to be entertained all the time, then date a comedian.
Oh, and BTW: “Dear author, is complaining all you have to offer?”.
Because, honestly, you don’t seem to offer much either for a date.
Another ouch….lol. I agree, a dinner or movie at home can be amazing and it doesn’t have to involve sex. But see, then we’re also programmed to believe that if you go to a man’s house, or invite him to yours, that means one thing….you’re ready for sex. So then, I don’t want to give the man “the wrong impression”…..yada yada yada. It’s a conundrum really. See I can enjoy just a man’s company, or just kisses, or just whatever, but it seems like for men, if it doesn’t lead to sex, they’re all disappointed and now you (the woman) are at fault for “leading him on”. You get what I’m saying?
@Katarina: “we’re also programmed to believe that if you go to a man’s house, or invite him to yours, that means one thing….you’re ready for sex”
That’s a prejudice. Do you follow prejudices? I thought you were smarter than that…
The solution is simple: honest communication (instead of mind-reading). A simple “Listen, I’d love dining at home with you, but I’m not read for sex yet – in case that was your expectation”, would set your course straight (instead of playing “hide-and-seek”).
Not doing that, you’re falling into another prejudice: “Men are always eager to have sex” (and that, like any stereotype, is not always true).
Don’t you think that dropping stereotypes and prejudices (and using honest communication instead) would improve ANY date?
Yes, of course, honest communication is always the best way, but some people aren’t mature enough to handle that. Some men, if a woman were to say what you suggest, would get offended and call the woman presumptuous. Which is fine, I can just focus on attracting mature men then who are able to handle open and direct communication.
@Katarina: “some people aren’t mature enough to handle that”
Is that reason enough to withhold honest communication, thus being misleading and/or manipulative?
Sounds like an alibi to me.
Then you say you can focus on men able to handle honest communication.
Good for you, but… what was the initial problem about dating at home, then?
It seems to me your piece was mostly a narcissistic rant about men not dating in the way that most suits you; kind of “What’s wrong with men not making me happy?!?” (oh, that’s big news!
).
Then, as we commenters keep on finding holes in your thesis, you keep on finding excuses.
I agree with Valter ont his one.
The problem too is some women just want male attention, period. So, if they are honest and open as Valter suggests, they know many men might go in a different direction. It does not mean the man is immature. It might mean he knows what he is seeking and you (the woman) isn’t it.
I don’t like to waste time with this sort of thing. I am direct and to the point. Yes, if you are in my house and we are kissing, making out……I expect to get laid. It’s just that simple with me. Just being honest, not immature.
“He’s interested in one thing and that’s getting into my pants.”
“I want people in my life, whether it will be just a friendship or develop into something more, who want to spend time with me because of who I am, not because they’re hoping to get something (like an orgasm) from me.”
The problem is you, and how you view what men want. You view men who want sex early as only wanting one thing, why? There are plenty of men who’d have sex on the first date and if everything went well they’d continue dating the woman, fall in love, get married, have kids or whatever their lil life plan decides. What makes you think these men don’t want to spend time with someone other than just for sex?
Is sex all we have to offer? Uh, no. But for some of us it’s important. Is companionship sans sex all you have to offer?
Question for the guys out there: seems like the consensus from the men in these comments is that you want sex earlier in a relationship rather than later. If not the first date, then certainy by the 3rd or 4th date. But if a woman is dating a lot, that means she’s going to have sex with a lot of guys. If we make a conservative estimate, that could be 2-4 guys a year, and could be much higher. Are you all okay with that? I mean, what if you finally meet “the one” and she’s 28 and in the past 8 years she’s had sex with 20 or 30 guys? The reason I ask is that I’ve seen surveys where many men still seem to feel negatively about women whose numbers are “too high.” Although this may not be a concern for women who are happy having a lot of casual sex, it may be a concern for women who are interested in finding a long term partner. They may end up disqualifying themselves from consideration by the men they are really interested in. Just putting the question out there since I’m interested in the male perspective on this.
“you want sex earlier in a relationship rather than later”
To me, the sooner the better.
I can wait, I did, but that didn’t necessarily lead to better relationships.
I had wonderful relationships where we had sex the first date, and lousy ones where we waited.
There’s no rule, it depends on the people involved, not the waiting.
“But if a woman is dating a lot, that means she’s going to have sex with a lot of guys. [...]
Are you all okay with that?”
I am.
Specifically, the more experience she has, the better. Of course more experience means she’s better at it, she know what she wants, etc.
A virigin likely makes a lousy lover.
I could drop a GF who’s lousy in bed, while I’d hold onto a GF who is terrific in bed! And I think many men would agree on this.
I think men worrying about the woman’s “numbers” are either stupids, prejudiced, prudish, judgmental or – mostly – insecure. None of those makes for a good partner… so I would rather lose them.
I mean, if a woman would want me being a virgin till our marriage, that alone would mean we’re a terrible match.
Better going with someone having a lifestyle similar to ours.
@Valter: you’re harping about me having prejudices and look at you being prejudiced, too… ” a virgin likely makes a lousy lover”….a prejudice is a prejudice, man. And bottom line is we all have programming, conditioning, stereotypes, etc.
And I don’t think that necessarily would have to be true….the more experience she has the better. A virgin could be just as good in bed because she’s passionate, confident, comfortable in her own skin.
“@Valter: you’re harping about me having prejudices”
Not for having them (anybody does), but for following them (and for writing an article revolving around them).
And here I was answering to Sarah, not you. A different question, and context.
“a prejudice is a prejudice, man”
Mine was kind of a joke. And I said “likely”, not “always”.
Besides, it’s based on common sense: would you choose a young, unexperienced surgeon just because he’s “passionate, confident, comfortable in her own skin”? No?
I’m not surprised.
“A virgin could be just as good in bed”
Yeah, sure. I heard lots of people praising how great the sex was their first time…
And, a virgin being comfortable in her own skin? That’s almost an oxymoron.
You might go mirror-climbing as much as you want, but reality is that, as the saying goes, “practice makes perfect”. 8)
That’s why, while not criticizing virgins per-se, I’d rather go for the high experienced women.
Only concern I have with multiple sex partners is STI risk, so I might want to get us both tested, if it’s all clear then it sounds fine. I’m more concerned with purposely putting a number on how many dates to wait, I feel that going with the flow is probably a better idea. Once both partners are comfortable then have sex and enjoy it, hopefully safe sex.
We kind of expect that and going by most women I know 2-4 men a year -is- average. What is the alternative? None of us are waiting till marriage and that 2-4 is for a fairly conservative woman.
As long has she has a good attitude, no STIs, and no children. There are no problems.
Mind you I explicitly -don’t- ask what a girl’s “number”… it just causes trouble.
@sarah….Yes, it is certainly a problem.
You see there is so much confusion in America around this sex and dating thing. It is all caused by a lack of openness and honesty.
Women hold the power with sex and dating. We men have to granted access so to speak. Women can pick and choose whom they wish to date and have sex.
Unless you are in that 10%-20% of uber attractive men, get in line. Better yet, pray! Most women find FEW men attractive and likable. However most men, who are heterosexual, find MOST women sexually attractive. Guys, be honest!
It is quite revealing your 2-4 men per year number. Interesting. If 20% of the guys are getting 80% of the sex, then women are having sex with a relatively small number of guys; a lot of the same guys statistically.
Being divorced, I no longer care about their number. If I were single and looking for a relationship or marriage, it would be important. But the truth of the matter is no man is going to ever know a woman’s number anyway. She isn’t going to be honest and open about it. You see, it always comes back to openness and honesty.
Thank you for bringing that point up, Sarah. I thought about that too. Recently it was said that if a woman has had sex with more than 5 people, she’s ‘promiscuous.’ In today’s dating world, chances are that unless you marry young (and that’s not really advisable if you’re trying to get through college, grad, etc. plus, you’re constantly surrounded by dating options and possibly, hook-up culture), you’ll date a decent amount of people. Unless you’re lucky to find someone perfect for you in those first 4, do you just give up and stop at 5? You want sex early, but then the girl is in the casual category or branded later when she finds someone she wants.
Valter–I’m glad you don’t fall into that hypocrite and no-win category, but I do disagree that people can’t learn about each others’ bodies and get better within the relationship if they are compatible. I lost my virginity to another virgin and the first several times were just awful and awkward and scary. We barely had any idea where anything went. As the relationship progressed and we got more comfortable, we ended up having some of the best sex I remember, even now and with non-virgins. Sex can absolutely evolve through the course of a relationship. It can get better, and it can also get worse. I’ve seen both happen. I do tend to find first time experiences with people I care about to be somewhat awkward. There’s a lot of pressure there for both sides.
@Aya: “I do disagree that people can’t learn about each others’ bodies and get better within the relationship if they are compatible.”
I never said that.
Of course we can always learn and evolve. Maybe I didn’t express myself clearly.
I was saying (talking about “numbers”), that I favour experienced women, and I think that “virgin” (or inexperienced) people are more LIKELY to be disappointing.
(and you just confirmed my point: “… the first several times were just awful and awkward and scary”. That’s what OFTEN happens)
My point was bashing the “number” shaming: I (and many smart men, I suppose) have nothing against “high numbers”. “Numbers” are an issue for dumb and insecure people.
I say “Ladies, bring on the ‘slut’ in you; we’ll have SO much fun”.
Yep, I’m sure I have some limiting beliefs and programming that need to be dealt with. As I think most people do, to live more freely and truly from the heart
I think there’s a bit of a leap here. Totally understandable, considering the wide-ranging stereotypes about men, which have plenty of anecdotal supporting evidence of course.
Asking you out for a movie and dinner at your place or his means he wants some immediate, casual sex? (I don’t think casual sex is wrong, by the way. It sounds like it’s not what you’re looking for, and that’s totally great, too.) What I’m hearing you say is that you want more other fun-centered activities, more diverse things to do with each other out in the world, and a movie-dinner-sex date isn’t what you are looking for. That’s perfectly good, and you should say that and stand by what you want. But, don’t make your preference into an indictment of men who may be interested in a different dating relationship than you do.
Maybe I’m just totally lacking in class or respect for women, but I don’t think making a woman dinner on a fourth date and hoping for sex makes me a man who’s “only interested in casual sex.” Having dinner at my place and spending the night is not all that “casual” in my view, but again, people have different preferences.
I think there is a valid unaddressed question here about what happens after you sleep with someone for the first time. It sounds like the issue here is what kind of dating relationship you are going to have after you have sex with someone. Will it still be fun? Will there still be going out and doing fun activities, or will it just be staying in and shagging? A perfectly valid set of questions.
I don’t think it’s necessarily an either/or. If he wants to have sex sooner in the dating relationship than you are comfortable with, that doesn’t mean that sex is all he’s offering. I hope asking to make you dinner on a third date is not a deal breaker and you dump him just for asking such a terrible sex-crazed question. There seems to be an assumption there that he’s either interested in what you want OR he’s interested in sex. Where is that assumption coming from?
I suppose there is always the concern that once if have sex with a guy right away, he will just see you as a booty call, only be interested in sex from that point on, and eventually dump you for someone else. I’m not saying it’s always a valid fear, but it is a fear. I think when people say “he won’t respect you” they usually mean “he won’t care about you or see you as someone worthy of having an actual relationship with”. If a woman is fine with casual hookups then no problemo, but if she’s hoping to find soneone special, that’s the concern. I’ve always had the vague idea that many men (not all) quickly put women they date into 1 of 2 categories: casual sex partner or potential girlfriend. Once he sees you as a casual sex partner, it is almost impossible for him to ever see you as anything else. I could be right or wrong on that, I don’t know. However, I certainly had experiences with men a few times that gave me that impression. Again, not every woman is looking for a boyfriend but I’m only talking about women who have that goal in mind in their dating lives.
Sara, your concern is real: some men think like that.
OTOH:
Just because there’s some risk involved, that doesn’t mean it’s better avoiding it.
- Life is a risky business
- IMHO, that kind of men are dumb: they want sex but they disdain the girl giving it?
It’s like someone eating an hot-dog and hating the vendor: it’s insane. Hence, I would be only happy getting rid of them; they’re scum.
- Even waiting for sex, doesn’t give you any real garantee: after 10 dates waiting, the guy could still be a nice guy, a dumb one, or someone just wanting sex so badly they are willing to wait in the hope of “scoring” (won’t you better know it in advance and not wasting your time?).
Your major risk in waiting for long, would be this: he was a smart and worthy guy, he knew it, and he stopped dating you because he knew he did deserve better.
How about THIS risk?
Is it bad to desire someone just for casual sex and not dating? There are people I’d have casual sex with but wouldn’t want to date (different stage of life, eg, they have kids and I’d rather start from scratch). Doesn’t mean I don’t respect them, but if they want to be FWB then I’d consider it but probably wouldn’t want more.
That’s fine as long as you are up front about the fact that you would never consider her as a romantic partner and are only interested in her for sex. Just to be clear, I’m not saying there is anything wrong with casual sex. There are plenty of women who like to play around. But it’s not fair for either party to pretend to want something they don’t. Personally I don’t think there is anything wrong with a woman wanting to wait for awhile before having sex, if she’s looking for something more than casual sex. If nothing else, it weeds out the guys who probably wouldn’t be good relationship prospects anyway.
There is nothing wrong with only wanting casual sex as long as you make it clear up front that that’s all you want. It’s when people hide their real motives that feelings get hurt. Sometimes it works the other way — women pretend they are okay with casual sex while all the time, they are thinking it will lead to something else.
Personally also I don’t think there is anything wrong with a woman wanting to wait awhile before she sleeps with a guy. Maybe she doesn’t enjoy sex unless she has really gotten to know the guy first. Maybe she’s concerned about her “number” getting too high. Maybe she doesn’t want to be viewed as “slutty.” Maybe she hasn’t decided yet if having sex with this guy is worth the potential risks (STD’s, pregnancy, etc.) If nothing else, waiting awhile weeds out the guys who probably wouldn’t be great prospects for a relationship anyway. Again, I’m not saying that all women want relationships and all men want sex. Obviously it’s a generalization. I’m only talking specifically about women who are dating because they want to meet the right person for a long term relationship.
Just to clarify, would you say women who want to wait should also clarify it upfront so men who don’t want to wait don’t “waste” time? (or men who make women wait, or same genders, etc)
I think it is a good idea to have that conversation at some point. It’s a little awkward n the first date perhaps, but if one person tries to initiate sex, the other person (often, but not always the woman) should explain that she would like to spend more time (e.g. several dates) getting to know each other first. In my experience, this has led to one of two outcomes: (1) the date ends and the guy never calls again (in which case, good riddance!) or (2) the guy is cool about it and wants to make plans for another date (in which case, awesome, he really likes me!)
@Sarah
“In my experience, this has led to one of two outcomes: (1) the date ends and the guy never calls again (in which case, good riddance!) or (2) the guy is cool about it and wants to make plans for another date (in which case, awesome, he really likes me!)”
Why good riddance? It does not mean he does not like you. You don’t have to like someone to have sex with them. I do. But a lot of people do not. Why look at women and booty calls (nearly always initiated by the woman). Does she really like him? Not really Only for good sex.
It sounds like you are seeking a boyfriend. Otherwise, why would you want to kick a guy to the curb so quickly? If you’re ok with casual sex…
Good riddance because if he never calls again after I tell him I want to wait a liitle bit before we have sex, then he obviously did not see me as someone worth getting to know, instead, he wanted sex. Which is fine. If he never calls, I’m not wasting my time on him, so that’s a good thing. In my current relationship, we didn’t have sex until we’d been seriously dating for almost 2 months. I know that sounds shocking to people. We’ve been together 3 years now, and we have a great sex life.
Again, sorry to keep repeating, but to be clear, I know that many women want casual sex and that’s cool. I’ve had casual sex in my younger years and it really isn’t that satisfying for me for a variety of reasons.
@sarah
“I’ve always had the vague idea that many men (not all) quickly put women they date into 1 of 2 categories: casual sex partner or potential girlfriend.”
Women do the same Sarah! Friend zone or f**k zone. Once a man is friend zoned, he is always unless she becomes desperate.
@wellokaythen I appreciate your extremely respectful comment and understanding. I agree, if a man tries to do the at-home date, I don’t need to (and I wouldn’t) write him off right away. I would tell him, as I did in these instances, that I’m not comfortable with that, and we can try to come up with something else together.
At the end of your comment, you asked “where is this assumption coming from?”….I think it’s because that’s the “vibe” I get from certain men. I feel like you can tell when a man is just focused on getting you into bed (which I am not saying there’s anything wrong with that, it’s just not what I’m comfortable with) vs. truly trying to get to know you and spend time with you.
Another false dichotomy I see here: either he’s interested in you as a person OR he’s interested in having sex with you. It is entirely possible for a man, I would even say most men, to do both. Sure, having sex has a way of changing a relationship, but it doesn’t automatically mean he doesn’t respect you as a person. When did this happen, that a man wanting to have sex with a woman means he doesn’t respect her?
@wellokaythen
Precisely! I just don’t get a lot of women on this point. Personally, I have to like a woman to have sex with her. That means getting to know here as a person. I need to discover her personality, he likes and dislikes, her intelligence, her sense of self, character etc…..
What is quite interesting is many women who feel like Miss. Illic have already engaged in a lot of casual sex. Suddenly, they want a “boyfriend” and the men they date are only suppose to be interested in them as a person, only.
Whatever.
No, see, you are missing the point. We want a guy to be interested in us sexually, we just don’t want that to be the ONLY thing. Personally, the fact that some random guy wants to have sex with me kind of makes me go, “meh.” Guys want sex, I get that. But he’d probably feel exactly the same way with any other reasonably attractive woman. So who cares? On the other hand, the fact that my boyfriend, who really knows me and cares about me, wants sex, is FANTASTIC.
What makes you think that a guy who’s interested in sex is ONLY interested in sex?
Also, if you’re convinced that random guys just lust after you because that’s what guys do, then what’s different about a guy’s lust ten dates from the first time he sees you to justify the leap from “meh” to “FANTASTIC”? Isn’t the only difference whether you were ready, rather than whether it took the guy knowing you well to finally feel some lust (assuming your “guys just lust” philosophy)?
I was responding to Terence Manuel’s statement about women who “have already engaged in a lot of casual sex. Suddenly, they want a ‘boyfriend’ and the men they date are only suppose to be interested in them as a person, only.”
My point is that simply this. If you want to get to know someone a little bit before having sex with them, that does NOT mean you want a sexless relationship with a de-sexed partner who has zero lust for you. The complaint here is not that men are interested in sex (we know they are) but that it is simply tiresome to go on dates with guys who immediately want sex. Before some of us hop in the sack, we’d like to think that, yes, here’s a guy who does appreciate me as a person, and ALSO wants to have sex with me, as opposed to someone who basically sees me as a collection of attractive body parts, with mind, personality, and character being optional.
Let me try to put it this way. I realize this is over-simplified, but it seems like there is a major disconnect. How do we get past it? I hear women complaining “I went on a date with this guy and he immediately wanted sex. But I don’t want to have sex with just anyone. I want to feel feel special.” The man says, “Hey, I wanted to have sex with you! Doesn’t THAT make you feel special?” The woman says, “No, that doesn’t make me feel special at all! Don’t you get it?” and the man says, “But I think you’re hot! That is special? Why don’t YOU get it?” Crazy, isn’t it.
Maybe men find the sex to be special more often than the women do? Maybe we need to look at what these particular men and women find special? It’s starting to sound like it’s the women who don’t think sex early on is special in this case whilst the man does?
I see your point now.
You want him to put in some effort to make you feel special before he gets on the sex bandwagon…Not right out of the gate. You want him to get to know you a bit. Hopefully, you are interested in getting to know him too.
I think guys come out of the gates with the sex so often because most are not getting sex regularly. So, we are like hungry wolves. Women can get sex whenever.
Again, let’s assume that we can get sex whenever, though I doubt this. I suppose I could, at a bar, just say, hey any takers and I might find someone willing (and someone that perhaps I wasn’t attracted to). I’ve been turned down for various reasons in the past, my girlfriends have been as well. We can’t get GOOD sex whenever. And for many women, this is the key difference. We are hungry too. Just not for laying there and not having a mutually satisfying time. I suppose if the mechanics worked such that it took 6-15 minutes of thrusting and little foreplay to get off then women would be just as happy to quickly mate as men, but for many women it takes much more effort (either on their own part or the part of the partner), which often a one nighter doesn’t adequately provide and may leave the woman feeling like perhaps that was a waste of energy, sexually unsatisfied, and annoyed.
Women (many women) are hungry for amazing sex. It’s just not easy to find in a bar scene, and just because a hungry wolf is interested in sex, it doesn’t mean that they are actually interested in pleasing us as well per se, so much as being fed.
YMMV of course, and there are great stories out there about great one nighters. Women may be able to get the physical act of sex whenever they want, but that doesn’t mean they are able to get what they actually want that would be satisfying. What’s the use of access if you don’t enjoy the action?
Exactly, Sarah, very well put.
And @Terence, your assumption is wrong, at least in my case….(about women who feel like this have already engaged in a lot of casual sex).
Ugh.
If you’re taking the traditional view that it’s the man’s responsibility to drive the relationship forward (and that’s what you seem to be saying) then it’s the woman’s responsibility to set clear boundaries. That means being verbal, not relying on body language. Otherwise you are ceding all the authority to the man to progress the relationship at the pace that _he_ wants to progress it at. Don’t sit around and wait for him to ask, tell him what you want! Be assertive, not passive.
In the same sense that there’s a rude way to reject a man who’s hitting on you and a polite way, there’s a rude way to reject an attempt to progress a budding relationship and a polite way. If a guy invites you over to his place, and you don’t want to do that, perhaps you could suggest something else that you do want to do? Or perhaps you could be passive-aggressive and go complain on the internet about how he’s not creative in his date planning. Of course, given that you haven’t suggested any alternatives, other than you live in a big cosmopolitan city, perhaps you aren’t all that creative either.
@Mr. Nervous Toes I didn’t think it was necessary for me to list all of my creative ideas in this article, that wasn’t the point.
@Katarina Ilic
so not to be all adversarial an such but, I didn’t hear you explain any of YOUR “oh so creative and wonderful date idea’s”. If “dating” is supposed to be a mutual process and the onus isn’t “all on men”, then would it not be prudent to assume that you also offered date options that catered to his interests and wasn’t based on sex?
If you didn’t attempt any such offerings then perhaps you’re expecting more out than you’re putting in (no disrespect intended)
As I just said above, I didn’t think it was appropriate or necessary for me to list my ideas for creative dates. What constitutes a fun date can vary greatly from person to person, so what would be the point in me sharing my ideas in this article?