If you say you’re for equality, Valter Viglietti writes, then you’re for everyone’s equality.
I have a confession to make: I have been a feminist for most of my life.
Since when I was a child, watching how my father treated my mother, I sensed a strong injustice and instinctively sided with women. Even growing up (it was the 60s and 70s), I noticed how often women were considered or dealt with as inferior, and that deeply enraged me.
Perhaps I became even too much of a feminist, because for a long time I thought women were morally superior to men; I didn’t think much of my own gender.
With time, I became wiser (well, I hope I did). My opinions became less black and white, and more nuanced. I realized how much both men and women can be good—or faulty, deceiving, manipulative, and just plain awful. I noticed that every “typical” gender fault, had an equivalent fault in the other sex.
I came to think God must be really impartial, because He (She? It?) made both genders equally “flawed” (at least, we have equality in this).
But I still thought of myself as a feminist, because there has been so much injustice to remedy, and I wanted to give women my support. I wanted to be their friend and ally. Besides, I really like women.
Then I met The Good Men Project.
What happened then?
I began reading comments (and even some articles) where I was “charged as guilty” just for the fact of being a man. I was accused of things I never did. I felt I could not think, feel, or (politely) say some things, because some women could be offended by them. In short, for some women I was a “bad man” by default.
And all this was happening on a website meant for men to express themselves.
♦◊♦
The underlying assumption of some kind of feminism, seems this: “To be a good man you need to always please (or never displease) women”, or “To be a good man you need to be the way women want you to be”; and there’s no other possible way.
As Tom Matlack noted in his article “Being a Dude is a Good Thing”, sometimes it seems that “The female view is the right view. The male view just gets you into trouble.”
But this would mean asking men to be less authentic and more “women-suited”, more adherent to a “female mold” of being. For millennia, men have pressured women to be like the men themselves wanted: think about prof. Higgins’s rant in G.B. Shaw’s “Pygmalion”: “Why can’t a woman be more like a man?”
Obviously that has been despicable and wrong. Yet, now it seems many women are doing the reverse; they are asking (or demanding, or even dictating) to men: “Don’t be yourself, be the way we like”.
Some feminists even forbid men to think or feel in a certain way; it’s not even about action, it’s about our innermost core. Remember the guy who felt that his wife’s breasts were “ruined”? He didn’t cheat, he didn’t tell his wife; still, lots of rabid women attacked him just because he felt that way.
When you can’t even own your thoughts, well, it’s a big issue. To me, that’s objectification: if you’re not allowed to feel what you feel, but you have to serve someone else’s purpose, then you’re just an object, not a subject anymore.
To all this, I firmly object. Men and women are (often) different, and that means we sometimes displease each other; while it’s good striving to respect and not hurt each other, it’s not good at all to deny who we are. And—of course—that’s true for both genders.
Being authentic sometimes means displeasing someone else, because nobody can ever please everybody all the time. Hence, sometimes we should ponder whether we choose to be authentic or to please others.
Some feminists (even men like Hugo Schwyzer) seem to believe that we should never displease women. While this may sound noble, to never displease women, you have to repress or deny yourself, when your way of being isn’t conforming to that “female mold”. See: husbands missing sex in their marriage, but just being silent and resigned to it (as noted in several articles here on the GMP).
To me, being a good man doesn’t mean “making women happy”* (though I’m really glad when I do make a woman happy). It means I strive to do and be my best, yes, but still remain authentic to what I am, because being “good in a fake way” is worthless to me; I would be a fraud.
* Note: I know this statement might make someone frown, on both sides. Yet, think about this: is a woman’s duty “making men happy”? Of course not. Women were required doing that for centuries, and nobody was really happy. It doesn’t work, both ways. Happiness is a personal responsibility
♦◊♦
That’s why, after a while of reading and pondering, I decided I couldn’t be a “feminist” anymore. I discovered that feminism (or a good part of it) has changed from seeking equality to “world domination” and men-bashing. All of a sudden, for these people, I wasn’t a friend or an ally anymore: I was an enemy.
Yes, I know, feminism is not monolithic, and there are many feminists who don’t feel that way. I love the way people like Lisa Hickey and Julie Gillis look at women and men. Still, the number of ferocious and one-sided feminist comments is big enough to make me step aside.
That’s why I now call myself an “egalitarian”. I’m still 100% for parity and equality, as I’ve ever been. But it seems to me many feminists aren’t in that field anymore.
My words might sound as a complaint against women. Nope; I still like women a lot, and I have many women in my life with whom I share mutual friendship and admiration. Just like a man is not his gender (a concept hard to grasp for some people, it seems), objecting against some women doesn’t mean being against all of them.
I’m still a friend and ally of women; but I like to be treated as such—and not as a culprit. As Frederick Marx writes in his article “Feminism vs. Men Is Not a Zero-Sum Game”:
Though I’ll do my best to combat all forms of crimes against women, I’ll not accept personal responsibility for any act I myself did not commit.
♦◊♦
We, men and women, should try to “meet in the middle”, but without denying or losing our authenticity; even when being authentic means that someone is not happy about it.
Because any relationship not based on authenticity is not worth having.
It’s time to drop any extremist position, any paranoid attitude that opposes one gender against the other—stating that women are good and men are bad, or vice versa. Both genders are right when they express their opinions, with their own different needs, limits, quirks. and imperfections. Both are “OK” as they are, no one of them has to “bend” and forcibly adapt to each other needs. Women have done that for a long time; they should know nothing good comes from it.
In the end, I think this feminism’s “bias” might be its biggest failure. If you really believe in equality, then you care about everybody’s equality—not just for you or your kin. If you fight privileges just to get your own privileges, then you aren’t better than your opponent.
If you come from oppression and you become an oppressor yourself, then something has gone spectacularly wrong.
—Photo jfrancis/Flickr
Read feminist Jasmine Peterson’s response to this post:
“The underlying assumption of some kind of feminism, seems this: “To be a good man you need to always please (or never displease) women”, or “To be a good man you need to be the way women want you to be”; and there’s no other possible way.”
So you finally felt what is like to be a woman in this world?
@Gaby: “So you finally felt what is like to be a woman in this world?”
Sorry, I don’t get what you mean. 😕
I’m not native English, thus subtleties and irony often get lost in translation. 🙂
@Crescendo63 you just HAVE to watch this!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQWoNhrY_fM&feature=colike
@Krishnabrodhi: “you just HAVE to watch this!!!”
20 minutes of it?!? I couldn’t stand even one minute of it! 😀
And there are lots of video from her… YouTube is definitely appealing to the egotist in us. 😉
Sorry, I didn’t get what she was saying (I’m not that good with english) but, no matter what, I think that Not all feminists are like that. In the same way not all men are rapists, not all women are bitches, not all males are horny dogs, and so on, and son on. 🙂
Nothing is ever black OR white.
I found this gem:
Feminism:
“Mother, what is a Feminist?”
“A Feminist, my daughter,
Is any woman now who cares
To think about her own affairs
As men don’t think she oughter.”
Here: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/11689
By this assessment, men cannot be feminists. I prefer to use Equalist – it is like egalitarian, but (without the French nomenclature).
Furthermore, it makes an assertion of men (not thinking women “oughter” to think about their own affairs) which is blatantly untrue.
Great….
Now what?
This article reminds me of politicians drumming about reaching across the aisle….what the heck does it even mean?
It means MRAs and feminists should give up their prejudices and work together.
Very well said, Peter, thank you.
PS: I’m reading your comments around and I like them very much. 🙂
Peter — we’re working on it. 🙂
A difficult proposal indeed. As an MRA, it is difficult for me to accept such a proposal first. Feminism was supposed to be what you describe, and it failed to fulfill it’s end of the bargain. Instead it villianized what I am and trivialized men’s issues. It will be difficult to even come to a middle ground, a ground that will be populated with those still seeking to address women’s issues (even if also seeking to address mens) until we can see that society and government are taking en’s issues seriously. In other words, it will be difficult for men… Read more »
@empathologicalism: “what the heck does it even mean?”
Basically, it means stop fighting each other and start collaborating.
Stop blaming and whining, start proposing changes that are positive for both genders – i.e., real equality (not the “Equality that suits ME” kind).
Make love, not war. 🙂
Crescendo63 says:
January 17, 2012 at 10:37 pm
…..those “bad” feminists do exist, and denying their existence is not useful to the movement
Unfortunately exactly those bad feminists are highly active in educational fields as teachers and others in legal affairs as lawyers and in the media as journalists – might be they are a minority, but the majority of women remains silent about it.
It cannot be denied, that laws in feminist-friendly countries are biased against men and boys and this is not acceptable.
Article addendum I’m this article’s author, and I want to sum up what I got after reading all the comments. It’s both an update and an acknowledgement I might have been wrong somewhere. – I have learned something new from the comments, and I think I changed my mind somehow. It seems to me now, those feminists I was disappointed with are perhaps a minority; they are not “a good part” of the movement. I apologize to the feminists who somehow felt diminished or offended by my position. I never meant to deprecate those who really believe in equality for… Read more »
“Listening to different POVs and experience is necessary to learn what we don’t know yet.”
Amen!
John Anderson says:
January 15, 2012 at 9:51 pm
…..One group looked at addressing the gender gap in higher education…
————————————————————
It would be interesting to see the gender gap for low educated people and the kind of work they are doing…
For sure many more men are doing such kind of work than women, but women never complain.
They want to see a quota only for CEO, but not for construction workers or for the fishery industry….
i agree with you completely. The recent feminist phrase “rape culture” is part of this trend. Instead of it being a crime that a particular person is reponsible for – they want to spread the blame for it to all men. I’m so glad to see GMP finding its own authentic voice.
I don’t really understand that because you came across some rightfully angry women and you were in the minority and were not praised as you thought you should be you decided to not be a feminist anymore? You should do something because it is right not because you are getting validated from it or not. You obviously can’t really relate and never did if you can’t understand the overwhelming majority of men who are privileged every woman meets and if some put you in the wrong box well if you “got it” you’d know where they were coming from.
English translation please, someone.
Jody, you’re thinking of men at the top of the ladder and lumping men at the lower rung in with them.
Please stop it.
@Jody “I don’t really understand that because you came across some rightfully angry women and you were in the minority and were not praised as you thought you should be you decided to not be a feminist anymore? You should do something because it is right not because you are getting validated from it or not. You obviously can’t really relate and never did if you can’t understand the overwhelming majority of men who are privileged every woman meets and if some put you in the wrong box well if you “got it” you’d know where they were coming from.”… Read more »
@Jody I could be wrong but I think you might be missing the point of the piece. One of the other posters said “The binary is when we dig in our heels and claim the US against THEM position.” That seems like what is being pointed to in this article. The OP is not saying at all that he is moving away from his efforts to see equality happen for ALL people. He is saying that the Us vs Them mentality that is created when certain (not all, I say again NOT ALL) feminists come from a space of lumping… Read more »
@Krishnabrodhi: “So with that the OP switched the label […] to one of and Us with Us mentality”
Thank you; that’s what I meant, mostly, and you summed it up perfectly.
Alas, some people read 10 sentences and see only the 1 that’s irking their prejudices. 😉
John is too common so I decided to include my last name for future posts. One group looked at addressing the gender gap in higher education. From my classmate Arlene, Yes, John, you are correct about the information presented by Amy and I last quarter regarding the disproportionally positive effect that “coaching” had on male students based on a recent study. The article we presented was “The Power of the Nudge” from Inside HigherEd and was based upon a recently published study by Dr. Eric P. Bettinger and Rachel Baker (Bettinger & Baker, 2011). Given the interest generated from our… Read more »
I think this is fascinating and worthy of a stand-alone piece.
I agree – it seems to highlight some rather important points.
The article referred to Originally is also worth reading!
The Power of the Nudge
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2011/03/10/study_finds_value_in_coaching_college_students_on_academic_and_life_issues
I decided to write a response to this conversation here:
http://bit.ly/Man-Talk
I thought this was a pretty good article. As it is written, I would agree with it. If you say you want equality, then stand up and really fight for equality. But I see a flaw in the premise of the article: equality doesn’t seem to be what’s fought for at all. Before everyone gets completely mad, I don’t think feminists are alone in this regard. Everything I’ve seen in life tells me few, if any, people really want equality. If you try to treat people completely equal, they will back off eventually. It may take a while to find… Read more »
@Rebel: “equality doesn’t seem to be what’s fought for at all” In a way, I agree with you. Sadly. In theory, most people are for equality. In practice, they tend (sometimes fiercely) to defend their own privileges. And I agree with you, again, this happens to anybody, regardless of gender, religion, political stance. That’s part of the problem in this debate, I think: many commenters see the other party’s faults, but not their own. This way there’s no possible agreement. @Rebel: “If you try to treat people completely equal, they will back off eventually.” Yep. Deep down, everyone wants to… Read more »
“In theory, most people are for equality. In practice, they tend (sometimes fiercely) to defend their own privileges.” That’s a better way to put what I was trying to describe. I’m sure I’ve done it myself before too. I should say here I don’t think this necessarily means people are sexist for doing this. There are legitimate differences between men and women that are impossible to ignore that do require different treatment at times. The most obvious one I can think of is that women get pregnant and men don’t, but there are plenty of others. This compounds the problem… Read more »
Just came across this video that was recently posted. This is a video from a women that speaks against that instant reaction that men get from some people when they speak up about their experience. This idea that men today can not be listened to because of the history of patriarch and misogyny in the world carries with it the same false logic as the idea that white people can’t be listened to because their forefathers used to own slaves. Men as a whole can not be lumped into one label of “privileged” people with no right to speak about… Read more »
Thank you so much for writing this article. I completely understand why you chose to change the label. I did the same thing for pretty much the same reasons but I chose a different word. I went from feminist to “humanist”. I too feel like the focus should be on the equality of all without the devaluation or demonizing one side. It is hard for a man to come to the table and embrace the idea of equality if his opinion is shot down simply because he is a man. The “sins of the father” argument is one that does… Read more »
This is a beautiful post. ““I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice… But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King, Jr., said, ‘Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere’ … I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King, Jr.’s dream to make room at the table of brotherhood and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people.”” Yes. Humans are fallible and we create fallible systems. And then we fix them and build new ones.… Read more »
A King quote I like a lot and have told to others is:
“Don’t look down on others, unless you’re going to offer them a hand up.”
What more needs to be said – other than “Make It Comment Of The Day”!
“I have a dream. Where a people are judged not by the color of their skin but in the content of their character.”
I know, inaccurate.
But still resonate today.
@Krishnabrodhi: Thank you for quoting Coretta Scott King, her words made my eyes wet.
I didn’t choose “humanist” as a label, because I’m no particularly proud of our own species. 😉
I love animals, and I think humankind treats them pretty badly.
My idea of equality is so wide open, it includes bugs and spiders. 🙂
@Crescendo63, I can understand not feeling pro-human. I feel the same way most days. But I didn’t use it with an intent of negating our connection with the rest of the world and the other beings we share it with. I use it more as a middle ground/unifying term between the seeming opposite poles of feminist and “masculinist”/MRA agenda. After watching he video that I posted the link for here I had the idea that the MRA movement may have had its birth with the idea that feminism was tipping the balance too far in the other direction away from… Read more »
@Krishnabrodhi: “still makes me go hmmmmmmmm.”
“hmmmmmmmm” moments are essential for democracy. 🙂
Bear with me here, folks. Ths following is a quote from the 2006 National Bureau of Economic Research paper Jasmine cited for the proposition that feminists are concerned about addressing the educational imbalance that has come to dramatically favor girls and women in the US and other countries. The authors would appear to have concluded that “Boys are less intelligent, mature more slowly, are incapable of regulating their behavior.” In other words, Boys and Men get what they deserve. And not one word about the profound literacy gap that has developed between females and males in education, let alone how… Read more »
It is bizarre to me that you read this bit and get that they are blaming boys. It is looking at some of the potential reasons for the gap. That males are more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD or have higher rates of behavioural issues doesn’t mean that boys are being blamed. The only way I can fathom that you would arrive at such a conclusion is that you have a bias that makes you read such things that way. It doesn’t suggest that girls are innately more intelligent, but that they have surpassed boys in school because they… Read more »
Thought from a non-educator, non biologist. Perhaps the strengths male hormones give men, also cause particular disadvantages. Perhaps the strengths female hormones give women, also cause particular disadvantages. I wonder if the educational system currently in the US is a round peg in round hole situation and does not address students with outlier issues. Actually, I believe that, having two boys, one with ADHD, and seeing several of my son’s female classmates with ADHD struggle.*** Perhaps boys need different types/methods of teaching/interventions at various points in the educations and so too would be true for girls. Maybe the pragmatic approach… Read more »
Pretty much the entire education system has been slanted gainst men at this point. It’s going to take more than tweaking things. It’s a bit like global warming. We’re already into the time of consequences.
It’s not been ‘slanted against’. That’s an oversimplification of what’s happening here. If the issues that are affecting boys’ academic success are addressed, we can see both males and females succeeding equally. The system isn’t inherently against males. The world isn’t against men.
This is something I always found maddening. When someone says that 97% of the CEOs of fortune 500 companies are men, all of the women (and feminists) I’ve encounter have no trouble identifying that there is a problem and I’ve yet to encounter a single one who doesn’t believe that the problem is institutionalized. When you state that 95% of nurses are female, you get the response that men just don’t choose to enter the field. To their credit, when confronted with actual facts, they did change their minds. Batty, D. (2006 June 9. Student nurse win NHS discrimination case.… Read more »
Great points.
I found a reference for the case I cited. It was actually orderlies who performed the duties of male nurses. This was not the original source I found, but does refer to the case. Here is the pertinent text. There is one case that deserves mention because it appears to protect male bodily privacy as opposed to female bodily privacy. In Jones v. Hinds General Hospital,58 Pamela Jones was laid off pursuant to a plan to reduce the workforce. At the time of her layoff, the hospital employed seven male orderlies, none of whom were considered for layoff, despite the… Read more »
@Jasmine
You said the “The world isn’t against men.” to the poster David, he never alleged that it was. What he said was that “Pretty much the entire education system has been slanted gainst men at this point.”.
Please stick to truthful means of debate. Feminist can make these conversations very dysfunctional and frustrating for men, because of the tendency to be intellectually dishonest.
So, Jasmine, you would be able to supply all the examples of how NOW and the AAUW are working hard to address the institutional biases against behavior more frequently exhibited by boys?
Well, I did say overhaul.
I think we should have more same sex schools rather than co-eds. I also studied in boys only school whose students performed much better than girls only or co-ed schools.
@Rapses: “we should have more same sex schools”
Maybe that would help learning… but I’m afraid it would worsen social skills building and gender wars (like we need THAT! 😉 ).
I think it’s paramount for boys and girls getting to know and get used to each other, and the sooner the better.
An “enemy” is a friend we don’t know yet. 🙂
@Crescendo63
Schools are about learning. If boys and girls learn in different ways, then they should have different schools. As for developing social skills, there are other public places like bars, discos and night clubs for those purpose.
I think that it is paramount that boys and girls do not know each other outside family setting and make the world a big mess.
A known enemy is better than unknown enemy.
Should the boys and girls in the same family be separated? This is not going to happen, has never happened in the history of the world Rapses. Only in a few countries has it ever been so segregated. People need to know each other.
I don’t want to segregate brothers and sisters or cousins in a family. As others on this comment sections have suggested that boys and girls learn in different ways, I think there should be different schools for boys and girls. As I myself went to a private boys only school and certainly do not lack any kind of social skills as to best of my knowledge and belief, thinking that it may hamper social skills is rather poor argument against it. Boys and girls are just unnecessary distraction for on another in schooling.
The problem with your suggestion (about men and women getting to know each other in bars, nightclubs, etc.) is twofold. First, the settings of schools and clubs are drastically different. It is important not only that boys and girls learn to interact, but also that they learn to interact cooperatively–how to work together to solve a common goal, as this is how men and women work together once they enter the work force. Bars, clubs, and the like, do not fulfill this purpose. Boys and girls need experience in professional environments, not only social environments. This issue is only compounded… Read more »
Same sex schools might help a little. But, from what I have read there have been some challenges by parents to single sex schools. The courts only seem to tolerate them so long as the number of same-sex schools (or classes) is more of a pilot program and as long as the schools/classes are optional not mandatory. What we need is to get more male teachers, have PSA’s promoting positive images of male teachers, male only scholarships for male teachers. We also need to institute more boy friendly learning methods. Anybody who has read “the war against boys” about fundamental… Read more »
Julie, for whatever it’s worth, I don’t think we have a massive increase in ADHD. I think we have a society that has shifted in what it economically and socially values to less physicality, more verbalness, less action, more time on task in the sitting position.
Yeah, I think that too after going through a lot to get support for my son. I see there being a trend in pathologizing behavior rather then dealing with learning styles.
Also, Jasmine, that’s my take on it. No blame, just identifying challenges that should be addressed to better the playing field for both sexes.
No, I absolutely agree. When there are large gender discrepancies in things like diagnoses of mental health issues, I think it is integral to examine the social reasons and the medical reasons that this happens.
I also am not overly fond of the school system in general – for males or females. I think that aiming to teach to an ‘average’ student isn’t overly helpful to the number of above and below average students that are in any given classroom.
I think we’re saying the same things, Julie. 🙂
Regarding the boys education gap.
That’s all fine and dandy you say you want to look into it.
But society doesn’t.
Because whenever the issue comes up its dismissed as:
-A class issue
-Diverting attention away from girls
Nobody in the media or in general want to examine this issue. What do you say to that?
Well, to be fair, I believe Lori Day actually published a piece on this site that was pretty thoughtful about the situation.
@Eagle34 – So what do I have to say to your question? “PHOOEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“Why Boys Are Failing in an Educational System Stacked Against Them”
https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/why-boys-are-failing-in-an-educational-system-stacked-against-them/
It’s the “Primary Reason” I respect Lori so Much – she’s a Lone Voice for Boys and Future Men! I’m worried that such a balanced and rational voice is being ignored and attacked.
I wish some would read what people say, and not just think they have nothing to say! P^/
And yet, MediaHound, Lori Day had vocal opponents who dismissed her claims when writing them here, even going so far as to claim she wants all attention diverted away from girls struggles in school when she had to repeatedly state that she’s for supporting girls as well.
@Aegle43P^)
“vocal opponents” – Hmmmm! It’s odd, isn’t it? Someone who has the experience, training, knowledge and real world experience advocating for an Equality Position in education of both boys and girls has “vocal opponents”.
Must be my experience of Systems and Design. Does Not Compute! P^)
I think another thing that could help is more electives to help kids engage.
I remember in my high school there was an english elective that centered on horror and suspense novels.
I think we need more of these types of classes to get and keep kids engaged.
So, you don’t read the words “behavioral problems” and see the word “problems”? Not “differences”. “Problems.” Girls have good behavior. Boys have behavioral problems.
Quite literally, Jasmine, you have just made it plain that you are in favor of female-normative education, and that the “problem” we need to resolve with boys is how to make them behave like girls.
Agree with the sentiment. From the evidence I have seen the boys are not the problem, the teaching methods are.
This is all so ridiculous. I think, as man – (my privilege?) – I have the right – politically correct or not – to piss in a position which is comfortable to me. How can this disturb anybody?
I just don’t care if feminists like or dislike my standing position in the restroom or not.
I think, it’s not their business – maybe I am a misogynist because of that?
This world is crazy…but I take it easy…
“However feminists demand to removal all urinals in Norway’s men’s restrooms, even in elementary schools – that’s because boys should not do what girls cannot….”
So when are they banning pregnancy? Or I guess suggesting a Logan’s run system for women that live past 90% of men’s life expectancy ……it would cut down on the medical expenditures. LOL
from the text of the author, Valter Viglietti, Italy: …..I decided I couldn’t be a “feminist” anymore. I discovered that feminism (or a good part of it) has changed from seeking equality to “world domination” and men-bashing. ——————————————————— There is hardly anything as an European man what I could add. Indeed, feminism in Europe changed from equality to ‘looking for advantages and privileges because we are women’. Nowadays feminism is an interest group for certain females who are usually financially fairly good off. In Italy feminists demand that females pay less income tax than men, because women are poorer. I… Read more »
@Yohan: “In Sweden we have the anti-prostitution law, it is allowed to offer prositution services (usually women) but it is a crime to accept and to pay for it (usually men)” “In my own country – Austria – women retire with 60, and men with 65, women live up to 83, and men up to 77.” Yeah, that kind of double standards drives me mad. It happens in Italy as well, and I never heard any feminists complaining their retirement age should be made equal to the men’s one. 😉 Quite the contrary, every time a raise in women’s retirement… Read more »
How odd that ages differ in different nations. It’s been 65 here (i believe) with an average age of 62. Of course it may vary state by state in terms of workers at state institutions. As in there is a formula, such as your age (Any combination of age and service totaling 80 with at least 5 years of service credit.) so one could retire early from The State of Texas. In Texas though it’s not based on gender but age and service.
I dunno. The OP and other people here can do what they like of course, but personally I don’t feel I need to discard my own opinions, my own feminism, because of what some other nameless feminists might believe or think or say.
As for forbidding men “to think or feel in a certain way” or believing “that we should never displease women” — supposing anyone ever did (they haven’t) try proposing anything like that to me, my response would probably be “good luck with that”, “knock yourself out”, or something similar; while also thinking they were a bit bonkers.
“I dunno. The OP and other people here can do what they like of course, but personally I don’t feel I need to discard my own opinions, my own feminism, because of what some other nameless feminists might believe or think or say.”
By calling yourself a feminist, you are attaching yourself to a group of people who have done and said some pretty awful things. If you don’t want to be associated with such acts, it might be best to find a new label for yourself.
And done and said some pretty wonderful things. Your point would be?
Far more horrible things than wonderful things IMHO… but to each their own
Men too, have done some pretty wonderful and remarkable things. Didn’t stop anyone from portraying us as rapist, abusers, paedophiles and oppressors. At least the whole of the female gender aren’t being blamed for the actions of those claiming to represent them. Men have suffered stigma from radical feminists for the actions of marc lepine, a single man’s single actions, without repeat nor precursor.
so… the National Organization of Women count as “nameless feminists” now?
duly, if a bit sarcastically, noted.
I started a master’s program about a year and a half ago. We take one class every three months. The second class was ethics and for our group project, we looked at identifying and combating sexual harassment. Naturally, some of the research led me toward feminist web sites and for a while, I had considered becoming feminist. Our research indicated that men could be victims as well and I started looked at men’s issues in general. I found that feminists marginalized, ignored and were at times hostile to correcting abuses against men. I decided that feminists weren’t actually interested in… Read more »
Thanks for a good and useful reframe for men who support women’s grievances in the world. I have just adopted the term egalitarian to describe myself. So thanks for that. I think the most difficult bridge to cross is the one that abandons the seductive call of the binary. The binary is when we dig in our heels and claim the US against THEM position. We are so very ready to blame and condemn. I see it from men and women equally. I often do it myself. To some degree I am doing it in this moment. But I try… Read more »
@Mark Goblowsky Greene: “The binary is when we dig in our heels and claim the US against THEM position.”
Yep. That’s the main problem. The “WE are right, YOU are wrong” stance.
I’m saddened in seeing so many commenters still stuck into this foolish binary attitude… while the truth usually lies in the middle (i.e. both parties are right and wrong somewhere).
I 100% agree with you that the “both/and” attitude is a major step towards a better world.
I would say feminism has it right when it identifies the exploitation of women and rape culture as a persistent tool of control. But what I find frustrating about feminism is its unimaginative insistence on misogyny and male privilege as its motivator, and it’s myopic and dishonest, by act of omission, narrative on the gender binary. Gender is not race. Where base tribalism, manifest as racism, left unrestrained seeks to destroy rival populations; no tribe survives the destruction of one gender or the other. The gender binary controls and exploits individuals, but its objective is to maximize the success of… Read more »
The many tears I cry for your departure. Farewell, brave male vanguard, the deterioration of feminism hastens with the loss of your (privileged, male) presence.
Come over to the dark side.
@Luisa
Some people brings joy when they arrive.
Somebody else bring joy with their leaving. 😉
Ah, you stopped being a feminist when forced to confront your male privilege.
Not at all surprised.
@MorgainePendragon:
Speaking one’s truth is a human right. The right of each, individual human being. It is not a privilege.
Valter:
The common tale at the root of “1984” and “La Muerte de Artemio Cruz” and “We Sing for the Fatherland” has yet to be written in this context. I think it needs a novel to tell the real, complicated, beautiful, ugly, painful truth. I think you see both sides clearly enough to write it.
@JustAMan: “The common tale at the root of “1984”…”
I’m sorry, but I barely know “1984” and never heard about the two others.
Thank you for your trust in me, though.
Why not you attempting to write such piece? 🙂
This, precisely.
It isn’t about you OP, it isn’t about you being a man. Once you get over that, you’ll find it all a lot easier.
I have to ask you too, since you agreed with her statement. Do you think most male feminists are just faking it? Do you think most male feminists if “confronted with their privilege” as she put it, will prove they are not really feminists?
Do you think men cannot really be feminists?
But it IS about him, and me and any other man. Because to say that men oppress women and then to arbitrarily decide which men are being talked about afterwards and that I or somebody else is not “one of THOSE guys”, is denying privilege and accuracy. The fact of the matter is if you are talking about “men” then you are talking about every man without exception. If you want to make a general statement then you can use qualifiers like “most” or “generally speaking”, etc… but in the same way that its irresponsible for me to say “women… Read more »
But it is about him being a man. Look at the FBI rape definition that was written in conjunction with the Women’s Law Project. Did you notice that it only recognizes penetration as rape thereby exempting the majority of female rapists. Since women can also rape women and girls, it wasn’t even about counting all rapes against women or girls. It was about blaming men for rape and absolving women. Yes, it was about him being a man.
John – I won’t say I agree with your views, but I am concerned as to who made up the “Working Party” on the new definition of rape that has been rolled out. I have been delving for information as to who and which groups were on that working party. It seems to be a guarded secret. I’m sure that if there had even been one group experienced in the field of rape of males, they would have spotted the obvious flaws and omissions. Such groups do exist and have high levels of expertise that seems to have been missed.… Read more »
I would suggest examining who was pushing for the change. Every source I’ve seen cites feminist organizations, in particular the Women’s Law Project. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
John – I believe that the hearing before The Senate Sub Committee was by request – and that is made clear! P^)
It is why I have been attempting to find out exactly who was on the “Working Party” advising the FBI. The rules on such “Working Parties” are quite clear as to how they should be made up.
At some level I understand what you’re saying. I won’t pretend that I understand the procedures involved in drafting the change in the definition of rape or precisely what needs to be made public, but the rules of evidence are a bit more clear to me. The standard even in criminal cases is proof beyond reasonable doubt, not beyond all doubt, and circumstantial evidence is evidence. 1. We have organizations that pushed a change in rape definition. Whether they were pushing this specific alteration is what is unknown. 2. These organizations are comprised of individuals, the majority of which we… Read more »
Morgaine – I love the Stopped being – and you forgot the rest “Became a ….”?
You treat all ideas as “You stopped being alive and became…”
Such black and white thinking – such polarities – and you wonder why people say Not For Me!
So you believe that most male feminists are just faking it?
That’s a very highly significant statement.
David – is it possible for men to fake it? P^)
A former girlfriend of mine once told me that she faked her organisms. I told her that’s OK because I faked caring that she had one.
Personally, I think there have been some extreme positions taken in recent articles and comments. However, I find the current discussions much more valuable and relevant than the summer articles. When 2/3 of the front page articles were penis measurements, trans/gay issues, let your son wear dresses and how to better apologize to your wife/significant other (I think I do that pretty well, lots of practice) I really didn’t see much value to this sight. Don’t get me wrong, I think all of those topics can have a place here but when those were the majority of the issues, I… Read more »