Photo “Headless Horseman Monument” by Flickr user Patcard. Used under a Creative Commons license.
So over at my blog I just mentioned a brief experiment I tried after hearing a friend lament about a certain… consistency in replies to her personals ads on Craigslist.
Note: Guys, when a woman (or in this case someone who’s pretending to be one) posts a note about wanting to trade sensual but definitely not sexual massages it’s probably not as unique an idea as you probably think to send her urology-conference-quality photos of your erection. Even if you have a conference-quality erection!
Because whillikers!
Oh, and “your erection plus your abs” probably doesn’t count as creative variation.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying nobody wants to look at your erection. Plenty of women probably do.
But, you know, usually when people greet each other they do two things:
- They make eye contact
- They extend their hands and shake them.
Neither of these things seems feasible in photos that don’t
- Include eyes
- Include something to shake but no hands!
In my post I focused on a role reversal exercise: What would your response rate be if replies to even slightly related want ads (e.g. for a fishing partner) resulted in lots of penis pictures.
My guess over there was it would be annoying not because you’re not into the pictures but because you’re looking for something else and so the pictures communicate no usable information for the recipient.
What I’d like to ask over here is what is the value of the communication of pictures of our penises to us?
Based on first, second, and third-hand experience I’m pretty sure the vast, vast majority of penis-photo senders aren’t trying to express dominance, or invoke privilege. Or even to punish recipients for treading in their online manly-man domains. (Which sometimes happens but probably not on W4M personals sections of Craigslist.)
And I’m pretty sure male photo mailers are trying to alienate recipients either. Or (despite the much-debunked idea that penises are ugly just because men don’t like them) trying to gross them out.
But I don’t think they’re assuming that one look at their erections and the recipients will fall over themselves reaching for the Like and Reply buttons either.
I don’t think they’re all just so proud of themselves it never occurs to them that their photos aren’t received with the same appreciation with which they’re sent.
I’ve never heard that anyone who does it has any success, especially when they’re replying to personals where the poster says that’s not what they’re looking for or else not what they’re looking for right away.
I don’t even think they’re desperate losers who just want to feel approval or affirmation.
In fact I don’t know why some of us do it at all!
But just because I don’t know doesn’t mean nobody knows. In fact a lot of people might. But since I’m not alone in not knowing, and since the question comes up fairly often around the blog-o-tubes, I think NSWATM is probably a good place to set the record straight.
So!
If you’ve ever posted unsolicited photos of your erection (with or without abs) feel free to reply (anonymously is fine) in comments. Or if you know or you think you have a really good idea (meaning direct second or third hand answers and not idle speculation) then chime in there too. Links to other non-speculative, non-insulting books, articles, posts, or papers are also welcome.
I’ll promote the best answers, personal anecdotes, and links to the main body of this post, with credit where credit’s due. (Note: I’ll add my own semi-related personal experience as an anonymous sex blogger in comments.)
And though I’ll probably never be a heavy moderator for this post I will draw the line at casual aspersions, insults, and “everybody knows” assurances that women just hate penises. Because simple complaints and insults about penis photos are common.
I’d much rather see pretty eyes than a hard cock any day. 🙂
This whole discussion seems to have wandered all over the place, but I’d just like to note one thing: I have browsed Craigslist w4m in the past although never sent a message and seen posters require cock pics as their first contact so they can screen for the ones they want to consider. Of course that’s obviously a different context than “sensual but not sexual massage” but it sounded when I read it like this was a reasonably common element of w4m so it wouldn’t surprise me if it is a part of whatever community there is there. Maybe it’s… Read more »
Oh yeah, Eden was having issues with that. It really isn’t that hard if you’ve seen the difference first-hand to notice it. Assuming you’re not body-language blind (I have met one such oblivious person). Anyway, time for me to get back on the topic before. I don’t mind those with operational mammaries walking down the street topless, I don’t mind those without that secondary sexual (in the biological sense) characteristic doing it either. As long as they don’t mind my admiring looks, or desire to not see that ever again for fear of burning out my retinas in horror, or… Read more »
@ TomeWyrm
“The energy, the mannerisms, the body language, even the vocal language of someone using their nudity (or anything else) as a weapon to induce discomfort or worse, are noticeably different from those of someone doing so innocently.”
Good to know.
Up thread several commentators seemed to be quite confused and (possibly) concerned when I used exactly the same wording as AB but in regards to women ‘shoving their sexuality’ in people’s faces.
typhonblue, are you honestly asking that question, or are you attempting to provide thought-provoking statements? The energy, the mannerisms, the body language, even the vocal language of someone using their nudity (or anything else) as a weapon to induce discomfort or worse, are noticeably different from those of someone doing so innocently. If you walk into a shower room where everyone is naked, is there not a difference in behavior that you can detect when compared to meeting one of those people in the main entry hall, laughing while they streak across the room? The latter is “shoving it in… Read more »
@ AB
“As a long as they don’t shove it in people’s face (unwanted), I’m fine with it.”
What do you mean by ‘shove it in people’s face’.
@typhonblue, I have seen plenty of men ‘revealing’ themselves. Some of them wore open or halfway open shirts, some of them have been completely naked. As a long as they don’t shove it in people’s face (unwanted), I’m fine with it. I’ve been mildly uncomfortable when naked men have basically stepped over my legs when I was lying on the beach, but it was mostly the physical proximity and the fact that they were looming over me. Their naked chests weren’t an issue. I find the idea that women’s nipples, or any other non-genital part of their (or men’s) body,… Read more »
@ AB “Anyway, I just have to second the people saying that in terms of revealing clothes, it mainly depends on what you read into it.” That’s right. Any time a woman reveals herself, it can’t possibly be inappropriate. It’s just the problem of the person witnessing it. Just like it was really *my* problem when my adult abuser groomed me using nudity. I was seeing it as sexual, you see, while it was merely innocent. BTW, does this standard apply to male nudity as well? If you don’t like a man exposing himself to you is it your fault… Read more »
@Hugh Tipping Ristick and @Noah: good points about Lonely Island. I agree with Noah that there’s a case for a feminist reading of I Just Had Sex, Jizzed My Pants, The Creep, and so on I agree, completely, with Hugh that whatever their analysis their style of mockery buys into some really nasty stereotypes instead of authentically challenging them.
Basically they’re saying “there are these guys, see, and I’m not one of them.” Which isn’t the same thing at all as “Hey, you know this you’re doing? Stop doing it.”
figleaf
Denmark is a Nordic country but doesn’t have much of a sauna culture. One of the things I’ve observed here is that with the larger prevalence of porn, and more importantly, larger segments of mainstream culture (music videos, magazines etc.) taking inspiration from mainstream porn, people now have a significantly less relaxed relationship to nudity than they used. Once, it was the norm for women to go topless at the beach, but now, many women are much too self-conscious about their body. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a close connection between the North American prudishness on one side,… Read more »
Kaija24:
Now that you’ve clarified we are in at least partial agreement. But even among cultures, for straight, het, males some combination of naked or revealed female body parts and surrounding background/dress etc will be sexy. It all comes back to the bodies, in the end.
Having lived within a Nordic sauna culture all my life, I can vouch for kaija24’s views. From an outsider perspective, the majority of e.g. Finnish population are nudists, albeit only in a very restricted context. By the way, the context used to be less restricted. Skinny-dipping (in the natural waters) used to be the norm, back in the pre-industrialized society; although in many areas swimming was seen as something that only women and children do. Of course even “sauna nudity” has to do with sexuality, but it’s more of an indirect connection. For example, if a young couple is visiting… Read more »
@Noah Brand, I did allow that the music video could be read as a parody. But I think the video is only a parody if you have an alternative model of sex, so I’m skeptical about how transformative it is. Feminists and pickup artists do (even if their models are messed up in different ways), but not everyone does. I think a lot of people with traditional attitudes may watch the video and think “haha, truth.” I think a feminist reading of The Creep is tough for feminists who have problems with ableism, misandry, and stigmatizing nerdy people. It’s hilarious,… Read more »
On the subject of men’s feelings about their own sexuality, and initiating, check out the Lonely Island song I Just Had Sex. This video shows a whole boatload of toxic ideas about sex and male sexuality, and I’m not sure how much it perpetuates them or parodies them. For better of for worse, video has 110 million views. “I’ll never go back to the not having sex ways of the past” Because male virginity is stigmatized. “So this one’s dedicated to them girls who let us flop around on top of them!” “She kept looking at her watch? Doesn’t matter,… Read more »
@Hugh Tipping: I’m inclined to think he’s parodying the ridiculous and reductive notions of sex expressed in the video. I feel like this article makes a good case for a feminist reading of the Lonely Island body of work.
My comment started on topic as a clarification that the idea that “men can’t help but be sexually stimulated by the sight of a (semi-)naked woman” is not completely true. Another example would be that in cultures where women do not cover their breasts, breasts are not fetishized or seen as a purely sexual…they are just another body part, so the display of breasts that may excite a North American man does not have the same effect on a man who grew up in that culture. Even in North America, in Victorian times, the sight of the leg or even… Read more »
@Clarence: Wow did this thread drift off topic (not in a bad way.) Anyway “But even if I’ve been going there for years and ‘mere nudity’ is no longer ‘fetishized’ by me, I will still get excited when an exceptionally beautiful woman walks by.” I’ve spent a lot of time on nude beaches as well and while technically you’re 100% right that people still notice if women (or men) are attractive. It’s just that they’re not more attractive because they’re naked. Because the statement “I will still get excited when an exceptionally beautiful woman walks by” is almost certainly true… Read more »
Kaija24: I deny that what you said is correct. You are imagining that sexual beauty does not exist for Scandanavian males. I can assure that is not the case. And I’ve never had any problems in a Suana. Want to know why, even though I am American? Because I can’t SEE anything. Men react to visual sexual stimuli the world over. Please stop using the example of a sauna, because that is not what I’m thinking about. I’m thinking more of a nude beach. Sure I won’t get erections all the time on a nude beach , esp for an… Read more »
@Ozymandias: To assume that wearing skimpy clothing means “I want sexual attention” is a simplistic overgeneralization. What happens if you are a woman who wants to wear skimpy clothing to attract sexual attention? Yet other women are wearing skimpy clothing without wanting to attract sexual attention. Those women are diluting the signal you are trying to send and confusing men. Rather than men objecting to women wearing skimpy clothing without sexual intent, perhaps some women should object to other women destroying the usefulness of skimpy clothing as a sexual signal, forcing women who want to send an unambiguously sexual signal… Read more »
@Clarence: “There are cultural messages to the extent of where nudity is permissible and etc, what does not change is the sexual response to that body among normal het men.” No, you completely missed my point; “bodies are not inherently sexual”. In my culture (Scandinavian), “normal” het men do not automatically have a sexual response to a random naked woman (now a *specific* naked woman that he is interested in is a different matter) because they’ve seen that on a constant basis their whole lives AND nudity has not been fetishized as innately sexual (clue: it’s the North American men… Read more »
Oh, and Ozy?
It’s all abut context. It’s far more likely you want sexual attention if you are dressed in a halter top standing outside the hottest club in town rather than if you happen to be in the laundry room doing loads of clothing.
Ozy:
Er, I meant..wearing a BUSINESS suit, not bathing suit. LOL.
Ozy: And I don’t MIND that. It’s ok for you to look. It’s ok for you to “objectify” me in that manner, at least if I am dressed in something skimpy and revealing. I know you are most likely to objectify me sexually if I am in short briefs, I know you are more likely to objectify me in some other manner should I be wearing a bathing suit. Humans are sexual beings and there is nothing wrong with owning up to that fact. Look, stare, whistle, compliment. Don’t catcall. Don’t insult. Don’t grope. Hell no, don’t rape. But feel… Read more »
There are lots of reasons why someone might dress in skimpy clothing besides exhibitionism. For instance, it could be laundry day and nothing else is clean. It could be hot out. The person could be attempting to appear attractive to their monogamous sex partner. To assume that wearing skimpy clothing means “I want sexual attention” is a simplistic overgeneralization. Clarence: Bodies are not “inherently” sexual? The vast majority of male bodies between 16 and 45 are sexual to the vast majority of heterosexual women, bisexual women, and gay men throughout all the world and time. This isn’t brainwashing, it’s biological… Read more »
kaija24:
Please. That was not my argument. It doesn’t really MATTER if the “culture” sees a naked body as sexual in some cultural context. All that matters is how an individual man is going to react. And he will almost certainly take note of that body in a sexual manner if it is attractive and it’s not “covered up” like in a Suana.
There are cultural messages to the extent of where nudity is permissible and etc, what does not change is the sexual response to that body among normal het men.
Bodies are not inherently sexual in all cultures. In most of Scandinavia, for example, there is a completely different attitude towards nakedness of any gender, probably as a result of our longstanding sauna culture. “Naked” does not equal “sexual” or even “sensual”, it’s just an uncovered body and quite unremarkable when you’ve bathed in communal saunas since childhood. People from North America have a different socialization in that “naked” is almost always associated with sex in some way.