Trigger warning for discussion of boundary violations.
Once again, I’m pondering the definition of “creep” and the creation of a Reasonable Person Standard…
(Obvious Disclaimer, again: if you ever feel creeped out by a situation, the first thing to do is to get out of the creepy situation through whatever means you find necessary. Sometimes creepy is kyriarchial, but sometimes it’s The Gift of Fear, and it’s almost impossible to tell which is which in the moment.)
After reading through the last thread on creepiness and thinking some more about it, I think genuinely creepy behavior (as opposed to kyriarchially creepy behavior) essentially falls into four categories. These categories will be illustrated using Pat and Robin; Pat uses Spivak pronouns (ey, em, eir) and Robin zie/hir, which will either show that creepy is gender-neutral or that the creepiest people on the planet are non-binaries.
Boundary violations. Probably the most common form of creepy behavior I’ve experienced. Robin says “I wouldn’t like to talk to you”; Pat keeps talking to zir. Robin says “stop following me”; Pat keeps following zir. Robin says “please stop asking me out, I don’t want to go out with you”; Pat says, “come on, give me a chance.”
Other people’s boundaries are sacred; the only ethical thing is to respect them. To do otherwise is the epitome of creepy.
Of course, the problem with this behavior is that boundaries are often established non-verbally. For instance, Robin might express that zie doesn’t want to talk to Pat by shrinking away from em, responding to zir in monosyllables and staring fixedly away from em. However, this might also be the behavior of someone who is shy and socially awkward. If you’re uncertain of someone’s boundaries, I’d recommend asking. (I’d also support asking if you’re not sure if someone wants your company– a simple “want to chat? These bus stops are so boring” is a lot less creepy than just starting in on how the other person is the most beautiful person you’ve ever seen. Of course, this is advice from a person who is really bad at reading other people’s boundaries and feelings, so take it with all necessary salt grains.)
Behavior that assumes a relationship that isn’t present. This section could also be called “emotional boundary violations.” Essentially, most cultures have a set of behavior that is appropriate for people who have a certain relationship, and violating these norms may be creepy. My favorite example is Laundry Day from Dr. Horrible.
Do not do this song! It is a very good song and I always sing it to myself when I’m doing laundry. However, it is also unutterably creepy. You can’t be in love with her, Dr. Horrible! You have, in fact, never talked to her! Your knowledge of her is based on her looking like Felicia Day which is, while a point in any girl’s favor, not exactly the basis for a romantic relationship!
Objectification. Objectification is a very commonly misunderstood term. It does not mean “being attracted to people,” the way it is sometimes used; it means “treating people as objects.” For instance, if Pat were to view Robin primarily as a means of obtaining free rides and occasional meals, while not actually liking Robin as a person, that would be objectifying.
If Pat is approaching eir conversations with Robin with a “so, you should fuck me! I do not care about you as a person except insofar as you can give me sex” attitude, that is probably going to be creepy. (Note that there are some cruising environments where that attitude is acceptable.) In general, in my experience, “looking for cool people to hang out with and then if it turns into sex cool” is a far less creepy attitude than “I’m basically just here to get sex and if it’s a reasonably attractive warm body it’s fine by me, no matter how obnoxious that body is.”
Threatening behavior. This is the very obvious one. Essentially, it is If Pat calls Robin a “bitch” or a “fag” for not talking to em, that is creepy. If Pat starts talking about how ey is totally capable of beating people up, no seriously, ey took a bunch of martial arts classes and is willing to smack anyone who looks at em twice, that is creepy. If Pat pushes Robin up against a wall and crowds into zir personal space, that is creepy (and also a boundary violation! Twofer!).
About ozyfrantz
OK, I’m now finding this exchange as tiresome as some others have said earlier, so I’ll try to be brief before bowing out, Barry:
“That creeped me out.” An expression of a feeling. I haven’t called for banning this.
“That was creepy.” A labeling of someone else’s behavior. In practical terms, it functions as something midway between labeling a person and expressing a feeling. I haven’t called for banning this, as long as the person saying it would find it true regardless of the status of the person doing the behavior that’s being labeled creepy.
“He’s a creep.” This is NOT an expression of a feeling; it’s a highly-gendered slur. Progressive egalitarians should not use this label.
Humbition and Lamech get this, Barry. I am genuinely baffled as to why someone with your manifest intelligence does not, at least insofar as understanding that this is what I’ve been saying, repeatedly (even if you don’t agree with it). The rules above do not interfere with anyone expressing their feelings. You’ll also notice there’s nothing in there implying that men are allowed to do something that women aren’t.
Amp: “And you really do seem to be endorsing a huge double standard when it comes to men and women expressing what they feel. When it comes to men, you say we should be extremely hesitant to ever judge them for an expression of their feelings; with women, on the other hand, you’re quick to judge them negatively for expressing their feelings in ways MRAs don’t approve of.”
There is a difference that I think has been overlooked. A man who believed that he is in love and says so is saying something about himself. A woman who is creeped out by that rarely expresses how she feels but rather that the guy is creepy, or he’s a creep. Do you see the difference? She is saying that his behaviour is creepy based on nothing more than her feelings. And feelings aren’t the ultimate arbiter of reality (Some people are creeped out by babies ffs!). It’s the difference between “that creeps me out” and “that is creepy”.
Therefore to say he is creepy, based on a feeling, is wrong, and can cause unnecessary harm (detailed by ballgame or dungone above). Saying “That creeped _me_ out” is better than “that is creepy” or “you are a creep”. That leaves room for discussion as to whether what the guy did was actually creepy or not. I think Ozy’s OP is an attempt to determine an objective standard for creepy behaviour, to get away from the idea that feelings alone are enough to determine if something is creepy. (I personally believe an objective standard is impossible, so the only viable use of creep is the term “That creeped me out”).
Sorry, didn’t see ballgames post before I posted. What he said.
f. says: “@dungone, sorry, but it just isn’t anyone’s job to manage the feelings of people who have fallen in love with us.”
No, but it’s everyone’s responsibility to avoid causing other people unnecessary harm when they don’t have to.
“Easy for you to say that if people didn’t try to emotionally use people with a crush, then the crush wouldn’t progress to the point where people have to do things like switch up their shifts at work or quit social activities. But frankly, that’s blaming the victims of inappropriate behavior.”
What victims? Someone having a crush on you doesn’t make you a victim. And doing as dungone said prevents the behaviour that makes you a victim. Maybe I’m misreading you. Essentially he’s saying that if someone has a crush on you, you can prevent it escalating. At this point you are not a victim. If you can’t avoid them and you can’t do it amicably a simple f* off will do#. You don’t have to be friends with everyone, and it’s okay if people are upset with you.
#and I’m saying that as someone who been in this situation on both sides. It’s the kindest thing in the end.
The best words to say “made me feel uncomfortable” is “made me feel uncomfortable”.
Here’s the problem with that: in my community (midwestern, urban, working class), the most common use of the word “uncomfortable” is for physical discomfort, not mental (because in my community, physical discomfort is a daily fact of life—physical work breaks a body down, eventually). “But how? He hasn’t even touched you! (made you physically uncomfortable)”. And if I say, “Mentally uncomfortable”, I’m going to get a lecture on how I need to toughen up. Because where I’m from, basic Streetwise 101 (gender-neutral) is: never show fear in the face of danger, period. Ever. For any reason. If you do so, you invite attack. This attitude is firmly ingrained in my community, the one I have to live in on a daily basis. Another attitude firmly ingrained in my community is the idea that women are mind-readers; that women have a greater intuition than men, especially when it comes to picking up danger signals. Whether I like it or not, whether I agree with the presumptions or not, I have to operate within those parameters.
And here’s the thing: “creep” is universally understood as referring to behaviors that correlate with danger or trouble. It’s contradictory, but using the word “creep” isn’t seen as an admission of fear—just as a descriptive term. When someone says, “He/she is a creep”—no lectures follow. No second-guessing. No “oh, come ons” or “are you sure?” Creep means “hasn’t done anything criminally actionable—but there’s good reason to believe that he/she might.”—because the behaviors are similar to those who have a track-record of follow-through.
It’s probably also worth mentioning that most creepy behavior falls under the realm of plausible deniability—by design. I assume that’s why ozymandias invoked “The Gift of Fear” in the OP. That book lays out in detail the number of ways dangerous people manipulate the social conventions so as to either disguise their intent, or enlist the help of others in disguising their intent.
Ok, my final post on this:
I really dislike what feminists have tried (with partial success) to do to the label “Nice Guy”. Yes, it’s true there are differences between the two types and some enlightened feminists will state which one they are talking about, but using the exact same terminology to describe two different things causes nothing but confusion. As someone who was of the boring but socially awkward persuasion, who was often considered “nice” , I really hate being lumped in with manipulative men. There’s an example of females policing (more to the point, messing with) language, Amp.
Now as for creep, I tend to agree with ballgame. Using the verbal forms isn’t really problematic, and can often serve a functional purpose. I don’t think people are as far apart here as it seems from the length of these comments, with a few exceptions for those who would absolutely ban all expressions of the word – though, I should note, they haven’t suggested anything to replace it with.I think most of the commenters would agree that “creepy” behavior consists of threatening behavior, at the minimum, with the disagreement mostly being on whether mental states such as strong emotions can be considered, and whether violating societal boundaries in terms of interpersonal relationships should also be considrered. I, personally, would prefer that creepy behavior be defined as threatening behavior one example of which would be violating clearly expressed boundaries. Threatening “my social position” is not threatening in the sense that I’m talking about.
I’ve been following this entire thread – and I don’t even know why you guys are still talking.
Creep has the same problems as other words in our language.
For example, thug. In upstate NY, where I grew up, a “thug” is a non-racist term, although it is classist and ageist. A “thug” is any young man who gives the impression that they engage in criminal activities.
But now that I live in the south, the term is nothing but a socially-correct term for “young, male n****er.”
There is no magic way to divine what a person means if you don’t know the social context behind their definition of the word – so all you can do is try your best to thicken your skin and inform people who use the word – something like this:
“I know you may not be aware of it’s usage, but the term “creep” is used an offensive slur where I come from, and I would honestly appreciate if you could be careful when using the term around me. If you want to describe some behavior that is causing you to use that term, please be my guest, but creep is a slur in my culture.”
And if people ask what culture that is, just say “Gender egalitarian culture.”
And if they don’t respect that, then you know you don’t have to respect them.
Question to other commenters: do you hunt? Are you an outdoorsperson? Or do you have cats?
I ask because “creep” is how predators sneak up on prey, doing so ever-so-slowly and quietly, while pretending not to so as not to alarm the prey (which would escape). That’s why the term “creep” came about—it was already in use to describe the predatory practice of edging up to prey. It describes actual physical behavior.
EasilyEnthused: There isn’t—and won’t be—consensus over use of the term “creep”, just as there isn’t (and won’t be) over use of the term “bitch” (including in overtly feminist environments). It doesn’t follow that this is a reflection of one’s (or one’s community’s) degree of gender-egalitarianism. Especially when we can’t point to a physical, lived-in, current community (not microcommunity such as one’s roommates) that consistently, overtly practices gender equality. The communities where we are typing from are all tainted with racism, sexism, homophobia and other manifestations of the kyriarchy; further, by growing up within these communities, we have internalized those toxic messages for our own destruction—carrying forth the work of the external oppression we’ve been immersed in.
Now, with that said, as we come from different locations/intersecting identities, we are going to bring different perspectives to the table. From my perspective, the working-class culture I was raised in and still live in is far more gender-egalitarian than the middle-class culture I observe. I thought it was worth mentioning because there is a history in feminist circles of assuming more sexism amongst the working class—which isn’t how working-class feminists experience sexism. I tried to bring out that use of the word “creep” is as it is in my community because there is a different threat level involved (more street crime, less reliance on formal enforcement, less ability to rely on informal intervention by others within a culture that prioritizes maintaining loyalty within microgroups along with an MYOB attitude and distrust of outsiders/formal authority that is often hostile and unreliable). I mean, this attitude of self-protection and informal warning systems didn’t come up out of nowhere.
Or to put it more bluntly, I can’t rely on either the police or strangers to take my claim of someone stalking me seriously. But I *can* count on the people in my social circle to have the loyalty to back me up. Putting those people on notice about a creep means I get backup. Being wishy-washy about naming someone a creep means I won’t get that backup—if I’m reluctant to name the behavior as “creepy”, it will be interpreted as harmless behavior, even when it isn’t. So, what you are asking me to do is to prioritize the *feelings* of someone else over my own safety. That on the slimmer chance that a given predatory behavior may not be….I have the *moral obligation* to risk my safety by denying the greater chance that the predatory behavior is indeed predatory. And I’m not going to do that.
“Barry, readers of Batman comics are hardly the representative population that I would look at to observe heteronormative behavior.”
Please, not the cliché that even Heroes got out that, besides Seth green apparently, all comic book persons are 1) men 2) nerdy 3) awkward and ugly 4) would beg any woman present to even listen to them, let alone date them. Sometimes they add 5) shy on top.
Judging other people’s feeling as creepy is wrong, (but also not a violation of anyone’s rights or creating a “thoughtcrime.” Having a negative opinion about any aspect of a person is not violating their rights in some way.)
Judging other people’s belief systems as creepy is a necessary survival tool, especially for women.
If some guy who doesn’t know me claims to be in love with me, and I think that’s creepy and that he’s a creep, it’s not because of what he feels.
It’s partly because of his actions (ie communicating that to me in some way)
And partly because of his belief system. He believes that these feelings he has are about me, even though he doesn’t know me. That is a fucking creepy thing to believe.
I can’t tell a low-status man from a high-status one (if such classifications actually can exist), but I can tell a man who makes me feel comfortable from a man that does not.
I really don’t give a rat’s ass if some not-nice girl hurt some ‘nice guy’s’ feelings however long ago. It doesn’t have a damn thing to do with me anyway. I’m just trying to get through my damn day here.
I will tell you what’s really at work here: the expectation that women must make everyone feel comfortable, and there’s hell to pay if they can’t or won’t. It’s bullshit and it needs to die in a fire. Immediately.
So shut up. Get the hell out of my face and stop acting like you know me. I guarantee that if you did, you’d be running like hell in the opposite direction.
@Ozy, I hope you can see the last two comments for what they are. Neither one of those two women have an actual need for the term to describe something specific, it is just a hateful pejorative. Imagine if it was some guy saying something like, “So shut up slut! Get the hell out of my face and stop acting like you know me,” and this was their justification for why they need the word “slut.” Imagine a guy defending his use of the word “whore” on the basis that it’s not his job to make everyone feel comfortable. Imagine that he used the word to describe women who fell for another guy too easily, when it was clear to him that the woman didn’t know how much of an asshole the other guy was, and that the specific reason why he needed to use the word “whore” above any other word is because it was a powerful tool to punish those women for their behavior. That’s what is happening here. These women use the word “creep” in a purely malicious sense, based on nothing but their own subjective “feeling” (i.e. hate), to demonize non-threatening men who simply feel a certain way.
Clarence:
I, personally, would prefer that creepy behavior be defined as threatening behavior one example of which would be violating clearly expressed boundaries. Threatening “my social position” is not threatening in the sense that I’m talking about.
I can dig that. A precise definition of what is creepy would be a whole lot better than the current system of lumping the socially awkward and the socially low status with the jerks that violate boundaries.
This is gonna be vaguely off topic because I read the whole comment thread several days ago & I’m not sure where it’s gone since then, but I just noticed an example of both a woman & a man being described pretty much equivalently as “creeping”–here a verb meaning ‘seeking out people to cheat with’ (or just plain cheating?)
http://www.stfucouples.com/day/2011/09/29 — in the lower left, and then upper right of the screenshot.
kristy: “i know…its a nasty habit, but so is creepin with another girls man”
jennifer: “bitch aint gonna be able to creep no more when im done with her.”
catherine: “Why are you bashing some girl when your man is creeping around?”
H—- : “doubt her man is creepin tho”
Please add this to your collection of anecdata!
[i]“Besides, what exactly is “creepy” about an unattractive guy repeatedly asking you out versus, say, a very attractive guy repeatedly asking you out? I’m pretty sure that if it was a handsome man from your favorite boy band repeatedly asking you out, the most you would say is that it’s disrespectful, or you might be inclined to do what some women do and brag to your boyfriend about how desirable you are to other guys and call them your “friends.”[/i]
Golly, i don’t know. Maybe the fact the woman is attracted to the (gasp!) attractive and not attracted to the unattractive guy! I know! Crazy! What with all this “mutual attraction” and “women should decide for themselves and be free to choose who their fancy or not” thing. Crazy, crazy talk I tell ya. Maybe the fact, the “hypothetical” unattractive guy is actually ignoring her non-interest is very fittingly described as creepy?
I’d like to point out that this particular issue has creeped-in (no pun intended) in the debate. “Bu-but what about the (unattractive) menz!” It’s important to note that the creepy thing is not the unattractiveness of the guy but his unwillingness to recognize her non interest and non-desire to interact with said unattractive guy. *If* by nature of his being unattractive the girl is more likely to find his interaction unwanted that doesn’t change the fact that it still doesn’t have anything to do with his unattractiveness and everything to do with his unwanted interactions. A women does not need to justify herself or her preferences to you. “So you’ll go out with attractive guy X but not unattractive Y?” or similar interrogations is -never- ok under any circumstances (and is incidentally -quite creepy)
It should also be pointed that creepiness is not only exclusive to unattractive men (although it’s possible such men tend to act creepily more often as a result of being unattractive with certain and larger demographics. I am not excusing the behavior, just suggesting part of the explanation. Obviously there are many factors involved).
@Rachel, thank you very much for explaining men’s experiences to them in such a succinct, matter-of-fact manner. Obviously, no unattractive man has ever been labeled a creep for any reason other than things that were completely his fault, caused entirely by his own inappropriate behavior. Such as sitting in a chair drinking a cup of coffee, which is totally inappropriate if a guy is ugly, old, disabled, etc. Anyway, we’ve already been over this dead horse…
I really like this guide because it helped me understand some of my experiences, which otherwise confused me. There was this old guy in a gym setting that kept talking to me and it was creeping me out and I wasn’t sure why at first. It wasn’t creepy in a sexual way and I felt bad about it because I thought I was being judgmental when I should have been supportive of an elderly guy being in the gym.
And after I read this guide I realized that I was creeped out personally because he was objectifying me. Specifically, he was an American who had taught himself Russian and when he found out that I spoke Russian, he was always very eager to speak Russian to me. And this would have been fine, except he would ask the standard questions (where do you go to school? what are you studying?) and then not remember the answers and eagerly ask me again several weeks later. And I realized that I was creeped out because he wasn’t asking things to get to know me and speak to me in my language, but treating me like a “person to practice his Russian on or show off his Russian skills to”. And I was impressed the first few times because he was actually very good, but after a while it was sort of unsettling and I started avoiding him.
Anyone have similar experiences? ^_^