Trigger warning for discussion of rape.
Dear the Men’s Rights Movement,
I think there’s one issue you and I need to sort out before I go back to my general policy of pretending you don’t exist and/or sporfling when you call me a female supremacist.
Being cheated on and raising your wife’s boyfriend’s kid is not the male equivalent of rape.
Not getting child custody is not the male equivalent of rape.
A woman wearing a short skirt is not the male equivalent of rape.
Having to pay child support is not the male equivalent of rape.
Paying for dinner and not getting sex afterward is not the male equivalent of rape.
A woman saying “no” when she means “yes” is not the male equivalent of rape.
A man getting fired from his job is not the male equivalent of rape.
A false accusation of rape is not the male equivalent of rape.
A woman saying she’s on birth control and then getting pregnant is not the male equivalent of rape.
Getting divorced is not the male equivalent of rape.
The male equivalent of rape IS RAPE.
And every time you say it isn’t you put the lie to the idea that you care about men’s rights at all.
Sincerely,
Ozy
@Flyingkal: I don’t get what you mean with “the other way around”. I thought you were talking about how the decision-making were made in the interaction between you and your boyfriend, or any other person for that matter. Not how the same decision-making process were judged in comparison to other people’s decision-making process. The part of my post you initially quoted and responded to in a pretty judgemental way, indicating that it was an especially female and unreasonable preference, was a part where I compared myself to my own father. You didn’t quote the part that preceded it, talking about… Read more »
@Dungone:
Yes, I know there’s people who seemingly hands over responsibility for decisions, just to be able to keep the liberty of critizing it later, should it turn out to be a less-than-optimum decision. And I’ve also done my share of dealing with such people.
But as I said to AB in my last post, that’s not what I thought we (or sie?) were talking about.
@AB: Actually, it’s the other way around, but you’re still proving my point. I mentioned having similar preferences to my father, and the first thing people insinuate is that I’m unreasonable in a specifically female way. Never mind that my father is pretty much the poster boy for the sensitive man letting himself get dominated by his wife (he even referred to himself as an omega-male, before having heard of anything but alphas and betas), when I behave that way, it just proves how demanding women are. PUA-logic at its finest. 🙂 I don’t get what you mean with “the… Read more »
I’m not sure exactly where you are going with this, AB, but it can’t be good. I can’t wrap my head around the way that being controlling and manipulative is supposed to be the same as being a pushover. It’s sort of like saying that we shouldn’t criticize someone for being greedy because there exists another person who is bad with their money. They don’t cancel each other out somehow.
AB: You were talking about a specific ship which wasn’t the Titanic. The ship from the article had no protocol of women and children first. You post makes it sound like the guys on that page were commenting about actual men dying because someone had implemented a policy of women and children first, when in reality, the article was an example of how the “women and children first” protocol which MRAs are always bitching about (or more often, gleefully use as an excuse to argue for the oppression of women, exactly as it was always used) is no more, and… Read more »
@debaser71: Saying, “wow that code was very well written” is encouraging. Saying, “wow for a woman, you code well” is insulting. Saying “You do X well for a woman” is also not similar at all to saying “It’s cool that you’re a woman and interested in X”. Girls and women tend to get the latter all the time if they’re into something typically masculine, just read Ozy’s account of being a ‘cool girl’. @dungone: @AB, your preferences as a woman have no bearing on the preferences of your father. Yes they have. If I’m labelled a demanding bitch for having… Read more »
Time magazine recently published a story about research that showed that while men are helping out more around the house than ever before, women’s opinions on how much work men were doing around the house hasn’t changed along with the trend. EE, I wonder if that time-use study accounted for the length of time that people spend commuting to work. Men are typically known for having a longer commute than women in order to get to better-paying jobs while living in communities that have good schools and better housing. I could imagine raising a family in a 1 bedroom apartment… Read more »
@AB, your preferences as a woman have no bearing on the preferences of your father. If I your father wanted a woman who cleans the house naked in a pair of red stilettos, I bet you would be singing a different tune.
In addition to the points that EE made about this statement, I would like to add that it’s also about time that women stop pressuring men to provide for the family financially so that men can have the time and energy to develop a thriving relationship with their children.
I wanted to weigh in here. I actually believe that men and women are served best with having a segregated support structure at least with respect to accommodation. There is always going to be a percentage of people, that will prefer male or female only space in which to feel safe. The part that really gives me a lot of trouble about this is that at the extreme end of things, the safest environment that we could possibly put a person into is a straight jacket in a padded room. When do you stop telling men that they should have… Read more »
Saying, “wow that code was very well written” is encouraging.
Saying, “wow for a woman, you code well” is insulting.
I am currently a stay at home dad but before that I worked in IT. I’m not a trailblazer and neither were the dozens of women working in my department.
EE, ““You’re a man who enjoys spending time with children? That’s unusual, but refreshing! Good for you!””
Saying, “You’re a woman who enjoys working? That’s unusual, but refreshing! Good for you!” would be condescending trash. Why is it any different to say it to a man about children?
Is this a micro-aggression?
C’mon, debaser.
In our society seeing a woman working is nothing out of the ordinary – and enjoying her line of work is nothing special.
If you really want to flip it around, try a field like computer sciences. It *is* objectively rare to see women in that field – and those trailblazers who do it should be encouraged by our society, thereby breaking down gender expectations.
It doesn’t matter if it’s compiling code or changing diapers.
@Flyingkal: If it’s something you don’t care about, he doesn’t need to be all that strong-willed and competent, right? Actually, it’s the other way around, but you’re still proving my point. I mentioned having similar preferences to my father, and the first thing people insinuate is that I’m unreasonable in a specifically female way. Never mind that my father is pretty much the poster boy for the sensitive man letting himself get dominated by his wife (he even referred to himself as an omega-male, before having heard of anything but alphas and betas), when I behave that way, it just… Read more »
@EasilyEnthused: @AB: RE: Patriarchy Ok, I see what you’re saying now (it took me a few reads to get it.) I agree, that society’s history encouraged dominant men and rewarded subservient women. And that’s all I meant. I find it more understandable to classify women as oppressed and men as oppressed because it has historical precedent (and still happens around the world). I don’t believe the distinction is as useful today, though having a patriarchal past definitely still has an effect, but I can better see how it came about. Hey, I’m with you. Did you read some of the… Read more »
@AB: RE: Patriarchy Ok, I see what you’re saying now (it took me a few reads to get it.) I agree, that society’s history encouraged dominant men and rewarded subservient women. it’s about time men put just a fraction of the energy they use on trying to win custody cases into participating in raising their children. Hey, I’m with you. Did you read some of the posts here about men who are not-so-subtly suspected of being pedophiles because they are alone with a child? You might think this is backwards, but I think we’re going to have to stop seeing… Read more »
If it’s something you don’t care about, he doesn’t need to be all that strong-willed and competent, right? Talk about having your cake and eating it too! I have found myself in exactly that double-bind so many times and with so many women. What’s interesting to me is when women make poor choices that they later turn out to regret, but if you try to reason with them into making a different choice, they accuse you of being a domineering asshole. I’ve noticed that it takes years of effort before some of the women I’ve gotten to know deprogram themselves… Read more »
@Hugh Tipping Ristik: @AB, On the subject of being head of the household, the study summarized in this article claims that women are more likely to be sole decision-makers than men: The survey is based on self-rapport. Not that it completely invalidates it, but it’s worth taking into account, especially because I’d already mentioned that it was my experience that women exerting the same influence as men were often deemed more dominant. For instance, I’ve talked to several Americans who say that car dealers tend to always talk to the man in the couple, which indicates that he’s usually the… Read more »
Easily Enthused: What I’ve *personally* experienced is that often tend to find men who can “perform” dominance to be sexy – but after being in relationships with them, expect him to be submissive in matters of decision-making that don’t align with her wishes. AB: That’s funny, because I often hear the opposite, that women always try to change men into going along with what the women want, but then they become tired of it if the men are too complacent. The way I read this, according to my experiences, you’re talking about the same thing here and not opposites. I’ve… Read more »
@Danny: As I recall the point of question was of mensactivism.org’s mention of it (when someone was using it as a comparison to a feminist site I believe). And their mention was of the idea that “women and children first” is still considered acceptable protocol in an emergency. Eh, no. That wasn’t what you were talking about. to quote you from the post I responded to: Lamech that’s ship story was of a ship that hit an iceberg and when it came time to go to the life boats the crew actually declared women and children first. The death toll… Read more »
@EasilyEnthused: You bring up Head of the Family while ignoring the climbing rate of single-parent households, which are overwhelmingly run by mothers. You’re ignoring what I’m talking about and what you responded to. My first assertion was: “I actually think feminism has a better point, given the patriarchal (e.g. men being legally defined as the head of the family) past of most western countries [snip]” At no point did I say that current western societies are patriarchal (or there would have been no need to mention ‘the patriarchal past’) here, but even if I had, your assertion was that “Patriarchy… Read more »
What Barry doesn’t seem to understand is that if the government gives money to a non-profit organization that helps abuse victims, then that organization must help out abuse victims regardless of their sex. “The government gives money” to many non-profit causes via grants of various kinds. If you run a non-profit that serves the community, especially if it is aimed at an underserved portion of the community and are willing and able to put in the time and effort to identify a funding opportunity and submit a grant application, your non-profit can also receive government funding, at the local, state,… Read more »
Dear Oyz,
thanks for womansplaining how men are supposed to feel about things that are either quite strawmanish (“A man getting fired from his job is not the male equivalent of rape.” “Getting divorced is not the male equivalent of rape.” WTF?) or will most likely never apply to you.
@Hugh Tipping Ristik, I think I’m going to have to issue a mea culpa on the law issue. I screwed up a whole bunch of stuff in my head on that one. I’m thinking of employment practices, which may still apply to cases where DV shelters refuse to allow men to work there. I know that would violate the law… just as the Faith Based Initiatives violate the law when religious organizations that receive funding only hire from within their religion. Both get away with it. I thought Pizzey wanted to provide care for men, or at least she said… Read more »
@Hugh Tipping – “Right, this attitude has always seemed very callous for. Why even focus on female-only shelters in the first place? I can think of a few reasons: 1. The belief that male survivors and female survivors are best segregated. This is an empirical question that I don’t know the answer to.” I wanted to weigh in here. I actually believe that men and women are served best with having a segregated support structure at least with respect to accommodation. There is always going to be a percentage of people, that will prefer male or female only space in… Read more »
@dungone, What Barry doesn’t seem to understand is that if the government gives money to a non-profit organization that helps abuse victims, then that organization must help out abuse victims regardless of their sex. Under which statute? I was thinking Title IX, but then I realized it only applies to education. There’s no such thing as, “oh, well, we worked really hard to get money from the government for women, so get your own!” Right, this attitude has always seemed very callous for. Why even focus on female-only shelters in the first place? I can think of a few reasons:… Read more »