As pointed out in the comments to part one, my first post about the rejections inherent in the men-approach-women-wait model was focused entirely on how bad it hurts for men to suffer the inevitable multiple rejections inherent in that model. That’s true, and it’s part of why it was titled “part one”.
A word to my fellow men: fellas, as we get together over our cigars and brandy in the billiard room, let us take a moment away from our usual discussions of how awesome it is to pee standing up (pretty awesome) and the pain of being rejected by women, and empathize for a second with the other side of that pain.
When one is sentenced by social convention to the passive role of waiting to be approached, the pain of rejection becomes the pain of waiting. Hoping every day, every hour, that today someone will say “My goodness, you’re attractive, we should have awesome makeouts now.” And it keeps not happening. That hurts in a different way, because past a certain point there’s just nothing you can do about it. At least in theory, a rejected man can pick himself up, dust himself off, and try again, but if all you can do is wait and you’re already waiting as hard as you can…
I think there are, interestingly, a lot of guys in this position, as well as a lot of ladies. The fellows I mentioned in the previous post, who have accepted that they can’t get up their nerve to approach women, and so just hope that some women will approach them. And if not today, maybe tomorrow. Maybe the day after. Maybe someday.
Let us then note that rejection comes in two flavors: passive rejection, where one is simply never approached, and active rejection, where one’s approach is rebuffed.
It is extraordinary to me how tightly intertwined all the aspects of gender damage are. For example, much of the pain of passive rejection comes from believing that one is grossly unattractive. For women, this ties directly in with the idea that a woman’s primary value is her looks, and all the awful shit that goes along with that. For men, it ties right in with the myth of men not being hot. That myth, in turn, is linked to traditional male privilege and the male gaze, based as it is on the assumption that if I, the presumed male subject, am not attracted to men, how could anyone else have a different view? It’s a giant Gordian knot of utterly awful gender roles, causing everyone pain.
That metaphor established, there may be a way to, if not slice dramatically right through the knot, at least hack at a few of the strands.
Gentlemen, back me up on this if you will: it is fucking awesome when a woman makes the first move, is it not? I know when I’ve had a woman approach me first, I’m not only flattered (in a culture where men are starved for flattery) but I feel a surge of gratitude. She’s put herself out there, laid her ego on the line, and thereby spared me the stress and fear of doing so myself. She must, clearly, be a pretty cool lady. Every time I raise this issue in a group of men, there is a general consensus that yes, it is seriously wonderful when a woman does that.
So yes, the more we end the unidirectional approach model, the better for everyone. And unfortunately, ladies, the ball is in your court on this one. The gents are already waiting as hard as they can. The way to a less painful society lies in more women finding the courage to fight their cultural programming and say “Hi, can I buy you a drink?” or “Want to continue this conversation over dinner?” or “Sir, those must be space pants, because your ass is out of this world.” (Maybe not so much the last one.)
Will this involve more women experiencing active rejection and the gut-punching pain that comes with it? Yes. But hey, at least the amount of pain will be more evenly distributed. Also, due to that surge of gratitude I mentioned, there will probably be less rejection than one might expect, at least for the first decade or so. Perhaps most of all, active rejection at least comes with the knowledge that you tried. Rather than sitting waiting for something to happen, you got up off your out-of-this-world ass and made something happen.
Ladies, I urge you to try this today. Don’t just smile and look away from that cute guy in the coffee shop, hoping he’ll get the hint; ask him what he’s reading. Don’t just look at that guy’s OkCupid profile and hope he messages you, drop him a line and ask him where he got that awesome hat in his photo. Don’t try to send telepathic waves to that smart guy in your class, go over and ask if he wants to study together. (The telepathic-waves approach has a batting average of zero, yet it remains popular for some reason.)
The way to a happier and less painful world lies with you, and hey, you might get laid.
Let the women approach and then they will learn about rejection and the great character building
that it would give them. They will be better for it!
I think the trope that has the most to answer for this, for me, was that of the One True Love At First Sight, and True Pure Love Is Totally Unselfish, So Just Because Someone Doesn’t Love You Back Doesn’t Mean You Can Stop Loving At Them, and, in the form for my heterosexual male self, If You Are Attracted To More Than One Woman Then It Is Just Base Lust And Not Love At All, You Male Chauvinist Pig. So for me, and for other boys and young men like me, realizing you had a crush was terrifying: if… Read more »
Why ‘approach’ someone at all? You should only really talk to people you trust in such ways as saying their attractive, wanting to go out with them etc, just wait until it’s natural.
(slight necro)
@typhon: Well, I’ve heard of that study and I’d tend to think it supports me.
When what happens if you’re late is that you’re breaking the taboo (and you feel everyone getting mad at you for it), that’s really uncomfortable and you don’t want it to happen. But if you add a cost to it, suddenly there’s a socially acceptable way to pick your kid up late. Whether or not it actually makes the daycare workers less mad doesn’t matter; what matters is that it makes you feel like you haven’t broken a rule.
Yes, it is fucking awesome when a woman makes the first move! Though it happened to me exactly twice in 30 years, and I didn’t turn any of them down. @ozymandias42: “This is my pep talk to myself when I ask people out: the worst thing that can happen is “no.” And if someone says no to me, what of it? I’m not in a relationship, but I was already not in a relationship. I, quite literally, have nothing to lose.” I find the worst thing that can happen that she says “yes” (based on my first appeareance or other… Read more »
@Allison: Maybe the guys didn’t have practice with rejecting people? I think many guys are specifically trained to take care of women and not hurt their feelings, and that can make it extremely difficult to reject women directly. In a sense, rejecting a woman goes contrary to their protective masculine identity. It also goes against their “fuck anything with a hole” masculine identity, also known as “what are you, gay?” and “women possess sex, men seek it”. And on top of all that, they don’t have a lick of practice. So, come to think of it, there are actually a… Read more »
@figleaf
If I have something other people want and continually ask me about, to the point that I hold a real power of veto I would say that is very powerfull.
Since this doesn’t happen much, and if there was no reason for it not to happen it would, clearly there must be a reason it doesn’t. What about all the reasons I gave? You sort of skipped over them inexplicably. What’s interesting is that while you are right to a degree that it’s difficult for a woman to ask a man out, you seem to be overlooking the fact that it’s no walk in the park for men to ask women out, either. I do know guys who literally tremble and get panic attacks even after they’re fully committed to… Read more »
@Blackhumor I disagree. I think it has the same basis as another phenomena. A daycare centre had a problem with parents picking up their children late; they instituted a fee to try and curb it. When they did, *more* parents picked up their children late then ever before. The fee offered the parents a way of evading the feeling of ‘taking more then I deserve.’ In the experiment you linked to none of the experimenters spoke of embarrassment at asking so I think it’s a stretch to say their trauma was rooted in social shame. It’s also interesting that the… Read more »
@Schala: But that’s an intellectual thing, and it’s pretty clear that at least Milgram himself didn’t feel anything about asking for the seat until the very moment he had to ask, at which point he apparently seriously felt like he was going to die. So it’s clearly not anything as rational as “I feel guilty about taking that seat”, though I agree it’s not just any social norm that causes this. It’s probably the ones that nobody else breaks and which are obvious when you break them; I would predict it would be just as hard to drop your pants… Read more »
@BlackHumor
This experiment could simply due to guilt of asking something you *don’t actually need*. In that experiment, none of the people actually needed the seat more than the seated person. They weren’t handicapped, pregnant, or with highly-reduced mobility, or injured. And I bet most were also not feeling entitled enough over and beyond the wishes of the seatee. They want someone to give them to them, maybe, but they’ll never ask, because they don’t think they really are worth the honor.
@ BlackHumor “See for example this story; once the experimenters managed to ignore the social norm they did fairly well, but it was so difficult to ignore the social norm that at least one of them felt physically sick.” Very interesting link. I don’t know if it was a matter of ignoring a social norm or rather feeling like they were taking something they did not deserve. If people can be so traumatized by being asked to take something they feel like they don’t deserve–even something as simple as a seat–then I wonder how the pervasive ‘men are responsible for… Read more »
Hugh,
thanks for your reply about the numbers. Makes sense.
“Who feels this way? I don’t. I generally do find it awesome and flattering to be approached by someone even when I feel no spark (as long as they receive rejection in a classy way). Approaching takes courage.”
Quoted for agreement!
Also the completely unhelpful advice to “play hard to get” or “let him chase you” in a lot of mainstream dating publications might stop some women who can’t get laid (who are the most likely to seek advice) from asking men out.
Any woman who isn’t satisfied with her given opportunities to say no can simply ask a guy herself. Since this doesn’t happen much, and if there was no reason for it not to happen it would, clearly there must be a reason it doesn’t. I suggest a combination of what Ella said (women are sometimes going to get rejected just because they approached) and that it’s severely uncomfortable to ignore a social norm. (See for example this story; once the experimenters managed to ignore the social norm they did fairly well, but it was so difficult to ignore the social… Read more »
@figleaf, what Hugh said. Any woman who isn’t satisfied with her given opportunities to say no can simply ask a guy herself. Whenever I meet a woman who is having trouble finding a suitable mate, it’s usually one of two situations. Either they have so many guys coming onto them that they’re too lazy to go out and find one they actually like, or there aren’t any guys coming onto them and they feel so jealous of the other girls that they’ll never be satisfied with the idea of having to find a guy on their own. They just want… Read more »
@figleaf Because, without contradicting Noah at all, it is not at all awesome or flattering to be approached by someone for whom you feel no spark. Of the very few times I was actually actively hit on I felt flattered each time even though I was not attracted to the respective girl. Heck, even when I was hit on by a gay guy it felt better than nothing. For someone like me those events are at least hints that maybe not all hope is lost yet. Still you can frame it differently and arise at the same conclusion that it… Read more »
@figleaf, I think you are making a different argument from the person in that quote. You are talking about lack of opportunity to say “no.” She is talking about lack of opportunity to pursue. And I disagree with her that women lack this opportunity. You know that bit the PUAs always talk about? About men needing to be ready to ask 50 times, or 100 times, before they get a “yes?” For all the wild talk about men being reflexive, obligate horndogs, when women start asking it’s generally the same for them. I agree completely. There is no reason to… Read more »
@figleaf, Because, without contradicting Noah at all, it is not at all awesome or flattering to be approached by someone for whom you feel no spark. Who feels this way? I don’t. I generally do find it awesome and flattering to be approached by someone even when I feel no spark (as long as they receive rejection in a classy way). Approaching takes courage. Of course I’d prefer it if only people I feel spark for approach me! But since I live in the real world where people can’t read my mind, I know that’s impossible. So I instead I… Read more »
@Noah Brand:Gentlemen, back me up on this if you will: it is fucking awesome when a woman makes the first move, is it not? I know when I’ve had a woman approach me first, I’m not only flattered (in a culture where men are starved for flattery) but I feel a surge of gratitude. @Ella: “However, I do also agree that guys need to learn to turn people down properly. I’ve never been told I look desperate or like a slut, but a lot of the responses I get seem to begin with ‘I would but…’ It took me years… Read more »
I don’t know, but if a woman is going to ask a guy out, she should do it for the right reason. For the most part, the scant times that I have seen my female friends ask out a guy, it was a guy who was so far out of their league that it came off as completely arrogant and ass-hatted. Probably just gets the 10 guys she just rejected think she’s an idiot in addition to getting rejected herself. Just as guys don’t always know how to turn down a girl smoothly (I would argue, neither do most women),… Read more »
@Hugh Tipping Ristik, well said again especially in your last post. But also kudos to you @Noah Brand for your excellent post.
@Myca, Hugh, I think one way in which passive/passive rejection is actually worse than active/passive or active/active rejection is that when it comes to active attempts to approach, that’s a skill that you can get better at over time. Hi Myca, good to see you. I think you are talking about roles, not rejection type. Yes, the active role allows you more room for improvement, though making that improvement may take a lot of painful rejection along the way. You can refine your approach, build up mad conversational skills, dress nicely and learn not to wear that nasty-ass cologne when… Read more »
@SpudTater, The worst rejection I’ve ever had was when a girl listened to my attempt to initiate a conversation, looked at me, and just turned around. Apparently, I wasn’t even worthy of a reply. That was a bit of a gut-punch. This is the kind of thing I mean when I say that active rejection has the capacity to be more hurtful than passive rejection (even though nice active rejection isn’t too bad). @K-Lined, Rejecting 20 persons even if it is a nuisance and makes you feel bad for each and everyone of them (which is unlikely) but having the… Read more »
@Myca
Even more reasons for women to take the initiative then.
What is really hindering them? The pain of being rejected?
The rest of you message sound very much like Rich White Guy who made himself on daddy’s money and doesn’t understand why the lower classes don’t just do what he did, after all it is not that hard, he managed to do it.