(Hat tip to Misha and Doug S. I assume the coincidence of two people sending this to me means that there is a vast outcry for me to write about it. Never let it be said I ignore the wishes of my slavering fanbase.)
Recently, Yvain wrote a series on privilege and creepiness and social justice and suchlike things (the link goes to the race/gender tag, in which I think all the posts are tagged. They’re all called “The (number) Meditation on X.”). (Incidentally, I am such a fan of Yvain. The non-libertarian FAQ! Squee!) I read through it and it was half “oh, yes, never thought about it that way” and half “yes, but you’re not paying attention to…” So I decided to write about it. These meditations do stand on their own, but you should read his posts, they’re fun.
There’s a pretty common meme when people are talking about creepiness which Yvain sort of takes as understood in his posts, i.e., that the problem of creepiness is primarily a problem of socially awkward dudes who don’t know what they’re doing and accidentally creep women out. I’ve seen well-meaning socially awkward dudes creep women out, of course. (And well-meaning socially awkward people of all genders creep out people of all genders; despite the way it’s usually portrayed, sexual harassment is not just a dude-on-lady thing.) But, you know, I don’t think that’s true.
Although I’m nonbinary, I’m generally read as female and have spent most of my dating life being called “she,” dating straight men, making half-hearted attempts at wearing eyeshadow, etc. Also, I am what is technically referred to as a “nerd fetishist,” so I have dated a lot of fucking socially awkward people. Right now my girlfriend, my boyfriend, and I are sitting in a room together all on separate computers, the way we do most nights. (She’s on Lamebook and he’s watching a Magicka Let’s Play. We’re nerds.) I have also been sexually harassed including (much to my displeasure) when I’m binding.
Here’s a pretty typical example of Ozy Being Hit On In A Way Zie Finds Creepy, chosen because it was the most recent:
Ozy: (in dimly-lit park, alone, at eleven at night, on swings, contemplating life)
Dude: (with friend) Hey, baby. You playing by yourself?
Ozy: …
Dude: Hey, baby, you wanna play with us?
Ozy: …
Dude: Why aren’t you talking to me, bitch?
Ozy: (gets up, silently walks away)
And the thing is… of the socially awkward guys I know, not one of them would do that. Not even the most awkward ones! It would not occur to them as a possible thing that one would even consider doing. In fact, being hit on by a socially awkward guy usually looks more like this:
Dude: (sends telepathic vibes of wanting to sex you up because you are teh sex)
Me: You’re cute!
Dude: (turns bright red, looks in the other direction, mumbles) Thanks.
Me: Would you like to come to my house to watch a movie?
Dude: (comes over, actually watches movies)
Me: Let me slip into something more comfortable. (comes back in lingerie)
Dude: That doesn’t look very comfortable.
Me: FOR FUCK’S SAKE JUST TAKE YOUR PANTS OFF AND LET ME SUCK YOUR COCK I WANT TO RIDE YOU LIKE YOU’RE ONE OF LOKI’S CHILDREN
Dude: (to himself) But zie probably means it in, like, a platonic way.
There are many, many, many problems with that strategy, but I really cannot think of a conceivable circumstance in which it would lead to harassing random people on swingsets.
And, you know, I don’t think Random Dude’s problem was a lack of understanding of social rules. It’s not even just that he failed at “do not approach women who are alone, at 11 at night, in a badly-lit park” (although please don’t do that), it’s that he failed at “if someone has not said anything to you in response to you saying something, they don’t want to talk to you.” Most people learn that by kindergarten. While there are probably some people who have not mastered that, it is odd in the extreme that that problem only comes out when they’re hitting on ladies, as opposed to every conversation ever. You never see them being like:
Dude: hey, what’s the time?
Other Dude: …
Dude: HEY WHAT’S THE TIME TELL ME THE TIME
Other Dude: …
Dude: STUCK-UP BITCH
So I’m pretty sure most of the problem of Dudes Hitting On Ladies In Creepy Ways is not actually a problem of social awkwardness, but a problem of Something Else. I haven’t read any studies or talked to any dudes who hit on ladies in creepy ways, so this is just speculation. But I hypothesize that some of the problem might be that they have a fundamental problem with the concept that women have the right to say no and that a woman not wanting to talk to them is a perfectly valid life decision rather than a sign of her being a stupid fat ugly stuck-up bitch. Possibly a fundamental problem with the concept of “figuring out hitting-on-people strategies that work rather than ones that just freak people out”? I really have no idea.
I think that socially awkward guys often tend to assume that when women (and people who are read as female but aren’t women) are complaining about creepiness they’re complaining about socially awkward guys, because they’re socially awkward. It’s relatively easy for most people to imagine “fuck, I did something wrong without meaning to and accidentally freaked her out,” and relatively difficult for most nice people to imagine “I have not quite realized that other people have boundaries and it is not okay to try to violate them.” But guys? It’s not about you.
About ozyfrantz
I think that the reason people associate creepy with socially awkward is that mostly creepy is used as a catch all term for when someone didn’t do anything specifically wrong but none-the-less made the other person uncomfortable. Your example, while certainly creepy, is a little more blatant, or at least more blatant than what I was expecting. That seems clearly aggressive. I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on someone you’ve just meet at a party friending you on facebook and then ‘liking’ a photo of you from two years earlier, or coming up to you the next time you cross paths having memorized every band you mention on your profile.
I’m female, and to me your example would be interpreted by me as ‘this guy is attracted to me.’ If I was attracted to him in return this would be good news and would encourage future flirting from me. If I was not attracted to him, it would probably just mean I would be careful not to go on about other guys being hot to him or anything. (not that I tend to do that anyway, but who knows.) I don’t want to present this as FACT, like ‘if you want to let a woman know you are attracted to her, the best way of doing it is to like a photo of her from two years earlier and memorise all the bands on her profile!’ This is just how I would interpret that specific example. Maybe other women or female appearing people will give their perspectives too.
Note: liking one photo is fine. I would say that if the women is someone who posts a lot of photos of herself, liking ALL of them might be suspicious and annoying. Same with liking ALL wall posts. That might be a way to get deleted on facebook. As for memorising all the bands on someone’s profile, how would that come up in a face to face conversation? She won’t know you’ve memorised all of them unless you say ‘hey, I noticed you like [band], [band], [band], [band], and [band]‘, and that’s not much of a conversation. If you seem to have similar music tastes then choose one of them you also like and say ‘hey, from facebook I noticed you like [band], and I also like [band], aren’t they awesome?’ Then maybe that could lead into a conversation about songs, albums, live shows etc if she really does seem to like them (sometimes people like bands on facebook that they don’t know all that much about, I guess, but that should come across in whether she finds it easy to continue the conversation or not).
Also, having an awkward conversation does not automatically equal creepy by any means. If you are talking to a woman and it seems like she is feeling awkward, that does not mean she is automatically labeling you as creepy in her head. If she does label you as creepy, it will be because of other factors, things like standing too close to her or making inappropriate comments. If she has gotten the fact that you find her attractive from the way you have been interacting on facebook, and she doesn’t find you attractive in return, that might be awkward too, as she doesn’t know how you might react if she tells you this directly. There’s always the ‘oh god, I think he is flirting with me but I don’t want to say I’m not interested because (a) it will make me sound egotistical if this is just a normal conversation really, or (b) (the scarier one) rejection might make him snap ‘what, you thought I’d be attracted to YOU? Really??’ or something nastier, which is hurtful and horrible, and can often be used by a guy who actually is attracted to you and doesn’t like that he was rejected. That, btw, is being creepy. If someone turns you down, then vent about it to someone else but don’t take it out on her, and try not to take it too personally.
I hope that all made sense and didn’t sound too patronising.
“Creepy” covers a lot of things. It means the guy to whom “Leave me alone” means “Try harder”, and the guy who secretly writes a zillion sonnets to someone he doesn’t dream of asking out, and the girls who talk in a monotone about playing with them forever, and Cliff Pervocracy before she wrote the How Not To Be Creepy guide, which is about social awkwardness. A unified theory of creep is doomed, I tell you, doomed – the only common factor is the emotional reaction in the creepee, not the reasons for the creeper’s behavior.
Someone* pointed out that a lot of the behaviours being labled as creepy and dismissed as social awkwardness are actually very advanced social skills used for evil. From choosing a victim to choosing a venue to acting in ways that appear innocent from the point of view of observers while actually being threatening.
Leo makes a good point though. I prefer to say ‘x is making me uncomfortable’ rather than ‘x is being creepy’.
* somewhere in the many threads about harassment at cons that I’ve read recently
Indeed. While I have seen people being creepy through “no fault of their own” (as it were), by far the majority of creeps I’ve seen or heard discussed are demonstrating a sophisticated degree of social control (if not awareness thereof). This sort of behavior is a paradigmatic example of abusers in general, who have intricate awareness of how to (a) identify the most susceptible targets, and (b) to abuse/creep/impose on them in a way that maximizes deniability. One of the key tools of an abuser is to be able to deny that anything has happened or to turn things around so that the victim feels that they’ve done wrong to the abuser.
Do you know why so many talk about creepyness and socially awkward guys? Because there are a lot of cases where a woman will label a socially awkward male as creepy, even cases of calling him creepy based on nothing but his looks. Yes there are a lot of legitimate usages for the word but there are also a lot of what I consider stupid uses, basing it on looks, or being creeped out over shy/awkward behaviour.
I seriously don’t get how some people can’t understand this simple concept. There are plenty of women using the creep label to guys who are acting awkward, not aggressive, and even guys that have done nothing but worn the wrong hairstyle/clothing/etc. I’ve seen it happen quite a few times, female friends and even my own mother calling someone a creep over the way he looks.
“But guys? It’s not about you.”
Which guys? Many socially awkward guys are completely right in thinking it is about them. Not every woman uses the term in the manner you seem to think.
I see quite a few people trying to deny the whole creepyness and socially awkwardness meme, trying to dismiss it, etc. Just because you don’t see it as creepy doesn’t mean other women (or men) don’t see it as creepy, plenty of people use the label on all kinds of people. Hell I’ve seen women even use it people with disabilities. There are plenty of assholes around that will use that word in the wrong manner, it can mean threatenin behaviour, it can mean awkward behaviour, it can mean looking different to the norm. A middle aged white male, balding with glasses around a young girl will commonly get the creep label as it’s a popular stereotype of a child molester (movies show them like that). “He looks like a creep” is a term I’ve heard quite a bit.
None of this means there isn’t a lot of legitimate usage of the word as there are plenty of creeps, but there are plenty of socially awkward guys copping the label, plenty of people that look different, act different, and plenty of times where people haven’t crossed any boundaries or shown any threatening behaviour apart from their mere presence near someone else. My mother said a guy was creepy, he was a trolley collector, I asked why is he creepy? She said he just looks that way?! The guy was staring at trolleys pushing them back to the trolley bay minding his own business….
And we also see a lot of socially successful people acting in a way that would be deemed “creepy” had it been done by any other person…
Isn’t that the complaint about dr nerdloves articles? Stuff he did would have failed for others?
Doctor Nerdlove is pretty good at understanding these things, I think. It can get a bit frustrating.
I agree. The thing is, everyone, women and men, surround themselves with people who are similar. And if you live in this bubble enough, you start to think everyone’ s like that. I personally have heard a lot of stories about things women do that make me go “What? We don’t do that!” because the women I associate with DON’T do that cuz they’re cool, decent people. I think it’s the same when a woman complains about men’s behavior. A bunch of decent men with decent friends say stuff like “What? Men don’t do that!” Well of course they don’t. The men and women WE KNOW don’t do that. But as a recent college graduate forced to return to my podunk town, I am astonished at the crappy things people do all the time. And you gotta start admitting that if enough people complain about it, it’s PROOOOOBABLY a problem. Women don’t make up stories about their harassment. Men don’t make up stories about getting called creeps.
There are legitimately creepy people, but I wonder if it’s been turned into this generic insult, like “slut”. There are women who get called sluts even if they’re prudish virgins. It’s just a mean word to call a woman you don’t like. It might be same with guys. :/
I hope and assume that the middle example is an exaggeration. It does make me think of a separate point, that we tend to conflate “socially awkward” with both lack of social skills and someone who lacks self esteem and confidence. In that example, the fictional dude is convinced them self that no one would ever want to have sex with them. Even if you have good skills, they’re mostly useless if you lack the confidence to attempt whatever it is you’re doing, including a guy asking a girl out.
Also it is easy to imagine a guy who is so nervous about asking a woman out that he comes across as creepy. Also women who get creeped out by situations that are not so much dangerous as just bizarre relative to whatever space they’re in.
Something I would like to point out before we get too far: There is a stereotype, a social prescription that men’s sexuality is inherently dangerous, and not only is it inherently dangerous but it is supposed to be and it’s better/sexier when it is. Certainly in the patriarchy of olde, a woman would be right to be worried if a man showed sexual interest in her. Losing her virginity too early was a very bad thing back in the day. However even today there is a certain slut/stud dichotomy. There are books like “50 Shades of Grey” and movies like “Gone with the Wind” where the romantic hero completely ignores the heroine’s consent, but the end result is still satisfying for both. “Gone with the Wind” is the best grossing film in history (after inflation) and in it the man carries the woman kicking and screaming to the bedroom, cut to her lying next to him with a massive grin. Apparently “50 Shades” has the same thing. Of course male oriented pornography often features the same thing, (ahem, Brazzers.com). PUAs often insist that you must be willing to maneuver past boundaries in order to have enjoyable sex.
So if according to these social prescriptions, adored by men and women alike, men are SUPPOSED to ignore a woman’s boundaries for the sake of sexy times then what is the difference between the proper approach and the creepy approach? It gets blurred, and often it is implied that by wanting to have sex with the woman, you’ve already done that damage, you’ve committed the sin of lust, you’ve sexually objectified her, so crossing boundaries makes little difference. To violate, to f*ck, to screw these imply horrible things, but they can also imply sex.
Sometimes I believe that the sort of sex that Ozy favors is lost in a vast moral gray area that stretches all the way from traditional christian chastity on one end, to CSI: SVU bad-guy on the other end. The closer you are to chastity the fewer people find objection to it, but there’s no single criterion that determines whether the majority agrees or disagrees with your sexual actions. Most people don’t have open conversations about sex, and yet everyone feels strongly about sex. So most people find a balance between sexual guilt and sexual pleasure. Most men tend towards sexual pleasure, but many “socially awkward men” are simply those who focus on sexual guilt. They feel guilty about imposing themselves on women as more than just friends, because all men are harmful but unlike the studs they are not good enough to justify that harm.
So if according to these social prescriptions, adored by men and women alike, men are SUPPOSED to ignore a woman’s boundaries for the sake of sexy times then what is the difference between the proper approach and the creepy approach?
I don’t really buy this. Adult humans are perfectly capable of differentiating between fictional narratives and real life, and only a sociopath would think about trying to (non-consensually) replicate that scene from Gone With the WInd. The problem is that a small fraction of jerks use the convenient excuse of “women say no when they mean yes so it’s not my fault when accidentally I violate their boundaries!” to well, be creeps. There’s a post by Captain Awkward about harassment that says, in part,
This sets up a world where men can do whatever they want until they hear a “no” that they choose to interpret as being “real,” and sets up any damage done up until that point as being the victim’s fault. The victim is not controlling the interaction, the harasser is choosing to harass. What possible advantage is there in making it the victim’s responsibility to convince their harasser “Oh no, kind sir, please stop?” or they must have deserved what they got? If you’re really invested in the “why are women such cowards who don’t say no clearly enough” narrative, ask yourself, why are you so interested in maintaining a shield of plausible deniability for sketchy people doing sketchy things to women?
I will point out that this applies just as well to creepy women, though I think they’re less likely to be able to get away with that kind of excuse.
True, only a sociopath or idiot would take this idea literally. My point was that the thought would influence the behavior of some, namely the sexually insecure who feel conflicted by different social pressures but don’t feel comfortable talking about it.
My personal experience is one of Asperger’s Syndrome and a intense social anxiety. I have a high libido and yet I can rarely ask anyone out. I feel sexual desire for many women. Usually it is because of the good figure. Though there are instances where I feel impressed by the woman’s personality and intellect. I admire her as a human being, and then that admiration turns to intense lust. I feel guilty about this. Being attracted to a woman’s breasts could be sexual objectification, but being attracted to her mind? Most women would rather a man be attracted to her mind, yet I feel like I have wronged her by simply feeling that way.
I try to explain these feelings and I realize that while inconsistent with my personal beliefs, they are consistent with a model of sexuality that often appears in popular culture and conservative ideology. So I figure I must have internalized some of these toxic ideas about sex. I recognize they are absurd and potentially very harmful, but they still exert an uncomfortable influence over me.
50 Shades is not a book abt violating consent . The 2 characters discuss everything ahead of time and sign a written contract before they do anything.
I haven’t read those books, but there was a feminist review that suggested that he forced her into sex when she clearly didn’t want it. She put up with the behavior because the of contract, but more so because she was just so in love, and the endless orgasms. The point being that she didn’t have any sexual desire at that moment, a seeming requirement for a positive sexual experience, and yet somehow HIS desire is enough for HER enjoyment.
I think most people would accept that it is possible to give genuine consent despite not being aroused.
Also, its hard to argue that she didnt have sexual desire and then say she only wanted sex with him for “the endless orgasms”.
In the first book he responds to her disobeying a command of hers by spanking her in her own home. This is prior to any contract, which is not signed until the end of the book (leaving aside the fact that a consent contract is ridiculous, inasmuch as consent can be withdrawn at any time and someone who did not do that would be guilty of rape). She at multiple points in the book describes not wanting to do something, being forced to do it (often describing her fear of him) and then only afterwards is magically cured by his amazing sex.
I personally quite liked the negotiated aspect of their relationship, I think it is quite important for people to clearly state their boundaries. But the dynamics in that relationship would be abusive absent any bdsm component.
You seem to be equating ‘socially awkward’ with ‘shy’. But that is not the only kind of socially awkward there is.
And creepiness does often come from socially awkward people who are normally shy trying, and being bad at, various strategies for attracting a mate. Things like ‘just put yourself out there’, ‘don’t expect her to say no’, and various other suggestions they might get from people who don’t normally have problems. And then, having no practice, they try these things. And being bad at empathy (which is often the core of social awkwardness) they don’t realise they’re being creepy, or don’t realise in time.
Creepy people and socially awkward people are both huge sets. Neither is a subset of the other, but there is definitely an intersection. Also, creepy is reasonably subjective on behalf of the creeped-upon, and various so easily with situation, timing, history and so on that it can be very hard to avoid it altogether.
I would add that awkward, shy people like the one described by Ozy are shy in large part due to fear of accidental creepyness and of what would happen if they DID just come out and say what they wanted. (also, I have never yet had anybody make an advance at me).
And I never know if the other person feels the same way or I’m imagining signs. So I can only escalate very slowly.
I regularly see two category errors when reading about creeps. Some people are talking about the harassers/PUAs/personal space violators, and won’t acknowledge that a lot of people are being called creeps for the wrong reasons. Others think the exact opposite – that street harassment is street harassment and creepiness is something else entirely. We’re talking past each other not because we don’t have the vocabulary, but that we choose not to use it.
What we need here is to retire “creepy” and replace it with *words that mean things.* “Creepy” says so little about the subject that it’s more or less useless except to convey stigma, whether deserved or not. Instead of using it on a blanket word to describe every guy who hits on a woman who isn’t interested, let’s break it down:
- Catcaller
- PUA/uses cheesy pick-up lines
- Doesn’t respect personal space
- Won’t leave me alone after being clearly rejected
- Stuttering/mumbling/shy
- Ugly, yet with the audacity to hit on me
- Unkempt or not dressed/groomed to my standard
- Something just seems “off.”
All of these things are “creepy.” In fact, I’ve called guys creepy for all of these reasons. That’s why the word is meaningless.
“- Stuttering/mumbling/shy
- Ugly, yet with the audacity to hit on me
- Unkempt or not dressed/groomed to my standard”
You call men creepy for these reasons? That’s pathetic. It’s people who use the terms for those reasons that muddy up the legitimacy of the word. Why on Earth would you call a stutterer creepy?!
Creepy is a catch all word for ‘makes me feel uncomfortable’. If you say you find someone creepy and later realise that you were just uncomfortable because they were stuttering and you couldn’t understand them, that doesn’t make it a less useful use of the term.
To me creepy is pushing past boundaries, continuing after a no, etc.
> You never see them being like: Dude: hey, what’s the time? [...]
Actually, I have been in that (exact) situation more than once. I wouldn’t call Dude creepy; just aggressive, assholeish, etc. But then, for me, “creepy” denotes a certain air of insidiousness; so outright aggression isn’t creepy in itself (to be creepy would require something more, like evidence of derangement as the source of the aggression, etc).
I can’t speak for everyone, but I’d be pretty pissed if I asked someone for the time and they ignored me. Likewise for if I invited someone to play with me and my friends and they didn’t even acknowledge me. Just saying no thanks is OK, but pretending I don’t exist would be very disrespectful and I think that would piss most people off more so than politely declining, whether they were hitting on you or not.
Also, in my opinion, “would you like to play with us?” is less creepy than “FOR FUCK’S SAKE JUST TAKE YOUR PANTS OFF AND LET ME SUCK YOUR COCK I WANT TO RIDE YOU LIKE YOU’RE ONE OF LOKI’S CHILDREN”
That was an exaggeration meant to convey my level of frustration. Usually I *actually* say something like “I would like to kiss you now. Would you mind?” and then have him be truly flabbergasted at the idea that any woman would ever want to have sex with them.
It’s like I’m hearing about a movie. Why is it that these things happen to other people but never to me! I have still gone my entire life without a woman hitting on me. I have never even felt DESIRED. I don’t get it. I believe that you’ve had these situations, and I know lots of women say they do it too, but I’ve seen as much evidence for this as I have unicorns. It’s like I’m the Truman Burbank of dating/sex/etc.
There’s nothing wrong with you. None of the women I’m friends with would ever really approach a guy (including myself). I mean, due to social awkwardness, low sex drive, laziness, etc. I find women who hit on people just as odd and rare as you do, but then again, I don’t get out much. XD
On the opposite side, eople tell me men hit on women all the time, and that has not been my experience at all, speaking as an average-looking woman with no blatantly obvious character disorders. I like to think that some people just don’t attract confident, sexy people, be they friends or romantic partners. Might be a socially awkward introvert thing. :p At least I hope it is!
* this.
I just wish I could be a bit unambiguous. I think maybe we should compile a huge list of situations rated by likelyhood of creepyness assuming that the issue is not pressed once a rejection or ignoring is noticed.
I dunno, “would you like to play with us?” sounds really creepy to me. IMHO, you should generally avoid questions that sound like they could come from a well-dressed 8-year-old who is actually possessed by demons / the anti-christ / an evil AI / channeling evil spirits / etc.
In public spaces, a female has to run the gauntlet of homeless, creepy , or other strange guys on the street bugging them…Penn Station has quite a few characters who flash (when they think no cops are around) and homeless guys without tickets who hang out in the waiting room trying to pick up what they think are naive dumb girls at 3:00 AM in the morning until the cops shoo them away…The streets are filled with vagrants and men from the nearby halfway houses…these guys fill the subways and stink it up with their bodily functions so that tourists and people on their way to work can barely breath…when that is not enough, they make kissy noises at random women coming down the stairs…it is intimidating because they are scary and smelly and if you yell back at them, they can go off on you….
These guys are the creepiest…and the scariest…
Do you live in NYC Leia? I have to say that the city is not nearly as bad as you make it sound, and I assume you haven’t been here in a very long time. There really aren’t that many homeless people here in the city, and most of them are pretty harmless. There are definitely the occasional crazy ones — there is a really crazy lady in herald square, for example — but I’ve found they’re mostly fine.
Born and raised…rode the subways for 6 years going back and forth from the boroughs to Manhattan….now I ride the suburban commuter train and the subways everyday back and forth to work…I have worked in NYC for 18 years….
I invite you to hang out in Penn Station and the subway stations at 34th Street…those guys are there everyday…that’s part of the reason why there are so many cops hanging out there on duty…
Maybe the pervs don’t make lip-smacking noises at you, but they do to me and the women who walk down the stairs into the station….
I work on 35th Street between Broadway & 7th, so I’m there every day. I don’t generally go to Penn Station — I use the Herald Square subway — but I’m here every day. I’ll honestly have to loiter and see. I figured it was much more common back when the city was a mess, but it’s much nicer than it was in the past. I really don’t see too many homeless people, maybe 10 in any given day.
Maybe we can grab a beer sometime and you can tell me what’s wrong with me in terms of dating, haha.
Haha..! Actually, a bunch of my girlfriends (and guy friends) from HS are going to be hanging out in the city (a former Brooklynite is visiting from a swing state!) this weekend…we all can tell you stories about subway and street harassment (from all the 5 boroughs!) riding back and forth to school …we’re a tough crowd…not sure you could handle my smart gorgeous girlfriends picking you apart…I will let them read some of your posts!
Haha, I’m far too smart to get picked apart. I can more than hold my own against even the brightest and most aggressive people. Intellectual combat is, after all, my favorite sport!
I just wanted to chime in and say that Ozy has completely missed my experience of being a straight male.
Specifically, Ozzy claims that this never happens:
“Dude: hey, what’s the time?
Other Dude: …
Dude: HEY WHAT’S THE TIME TELL ME THE TIME
Other Dude: …
Dude: STUCK-UP BITCH”
Please let me disabuse Ozy of this notion. Having personally played the part of “other dude” I can assure you that this happens with some frequency. Usually the term “stuck up bitch” is not used, instead it’s a variation on asshole/retard/and-or a racial slur. I have heard all three.
Since the core of the analysis in this piece is the idea that this doesn’t happen, and it does actually happen, the conclusions of this piece seem questionable.
Furthermore, I would politely suggest that Ozy has missed a larger point here. As a straight male, I don’t “see” a lot of street harassment, however, I will defer to people who outwardly present as female for evidence of whether or not it actually happens. When Ozy claims not to “see” men make these statements to each other, this is little different than me claiming not to “see” street harassment. In both cases the behavior exists independent of whether or not the observer has picked up on it.
Hmmmmmm….
Here is the critical thing that I notice:
Creepy people actually do the creepy things.
Shy guys are afraid of being creepy, and therefore do not do the creepy things. In general shy guys are not creepy, but they might (*might*) be creepy if they had more confidence and actually did make advances.
Shy guys who don’t want to be creepy are generally not going to make the big ignoring no or ignoring non-response mistakes, in fact they will probably back away faster than needed.
For me personally, the biggest problem is that one little step from talking platonically, to talking about a concupiscent intererst in the other person.
I’d argue that “shy” describes the mental state of the shy person whereas “awkward” describes behavior and “creepy” describes the emotional reaction of the other person. Unfortunately, shyness generally means that a person is very anxious socially and anxiety creates awkwardness (lack of eye contact, halting speech, shaking, sweating, blurting out strange remarks, lurking, staring etc.) that may be perceived as “creepy” by the other person. That is, a person who is anxious and awkward makes others feel anxious — they sense his or her inner tension and fear, and this creates a feeling of unease in themselves that contributes to the “creeped out” reaction. “Creeped out” usually describes a state of anxiety or uneasiness. Women use “creepy” to describe many things that make them uneasy, a creepy movie, a creepy neighborhood, a creepy guy. Unfortunately, many guys labelled creepy are no threat at all to the woman but she feels nervous anyway.
I suffered from intense social anxiety when I was younger and I cringe when I remember some of my awkward social interactions. Getting help for social anxiety can change one’s life.
Not all shy guys are labeled creepy by women. I always shy from my childhood, but i never heard any woman called me creepy, i even got asked out by women ( strangers ) several times, in bar, in train, etc although i’m shy. Because i never act creepy to women. Women dont hate shy guys, they just want us to be more confident ( its the hardest thing to do for socially awkward guys like me ). If any woman called you creepy, its because you are creepy, not because your’e shy. I actually think most of creepy guys are guys who are over confident and think they can land any women in bed.
“If any woman called you creepy, its because you are creepy, not because your’e shy.”
I’ve watched women do this to men who were not acting suspicious, not pushing boundaries, their only crime was being nervous, a bit awkward, muttering/mumbling/stuttering. There are quite a few women who’s idea of creepy is so fucked up that they will label something they feel is ugly as creepy, they’ll get creeped out by nearly anything. And yes the problem lies with those women, they’re using a highly insulting word to creepshame guys who at times are doing no wrong except having poor dress style, are shy, etc.
Some women hate shy guys, and I think more mistake shy guys intentions or behaviour.
I know i cant speak for every shy guys. But to shy guys ( and to every guys ), i know one important thing you can do to make you different in the eyes for women. Simple, looks. Many women said they don’t care for men’s appearance at all, they only care for personality. But i don’t believe it. , at least for me. I really care for my appearance, I always use face moisturizer, eye cream, hair styling products, body lotions, deodorants. I working out on gym. I follow fashion and choose nice and fitting clothes. Even when i don’t really ‘approach women ( cause i’m shy ), i have women approaching me several times ( although i can bet average/ugly women get approached more than me ).
And taking care of your appearance makes you more confident and makes you seems more approachable to women. And if you looks and smell good, at least women wont automatically think your’e creepy guy if you approached them. I think women are just as shallow as men.
Why would anyone want to spend any time at all, much less have a relationship, with someone so staggeringly shallow that they view a guy who doesn’t use hair product and doesn’t wear perfect fashion as “creepy”?
Do we really want to start the list of “how to be not creepy” with “waste 2 hours a day preening like a peacock and pissing away money on clothing”?
Sorry, I’ve got actually important things to do with my time instead.
“Because i never act creepy to women.”
Try to be somewhere while trans, while gay, while visibly disabled, while quite old (60+) who even so much as LOOKS at someone who isn’t interested.
Come back to me and tell me it’s about acting.