Feministe has been posting recently about men who don’t like particular sex acts, namely, period sex and cunnilingus.
Everyone has the right to say no. This includes men. For what it was worth, I think Jill did make a gesture towards there being people with “legitimate” reasons (spine issues, disliking the sight of blood) not to like cunnilingus or period sex. The problem with that, though, is that there is no illegitimate reason to say no to any sex act.
“I hate the taste of pussy” is an okay reason not to eat pussy (although may I suggest dental dams?). “I can’t breathe when I eat people out” is an okay reason not to eat pussy. “I was forced to eat a woman out and now it triggers me” is an okay reason not to eat pussy. “Dunno, just don’t like it” is an okay reason not to eat pussy. Any reason is a good reason not to eat pussy. This is because it is your body, and therefore what you do with it is no one else’s business.
However, the right to say no applies both ways. If a cis woman’s partner says “I don’t want to have sex during your period,” she has the perfect right to say “well, I want sex during my period, so I will go seek a more compatible sex partner” and stop having sex with that partner. Ideally, that would quickly separate out the things each partner is not willing to compromise on from the things they are.
Of course, this isn’t the perfect solution. One partner may end up compromising on something that’s really a dealbreaker for them for the sake of the relationship, or because they love the person, or because they’re so desperate for a partner, any partner, that they want to, and this is non-optimal. However, given that all the other options are, at best, extremely rapey, it’s the best of a lot of shitty options.
And, yes, “pressure all men into eating pussy or having period sex because otherwise they’re misogynists” is really rapey.
I think, however, Jill did have two decent points that were lost in the miasma of “it is okay to say no to sex.” The first is that there are a certain number of people who are honestly disgusted by pussies. (My favorite is a female friend of mine in high school who wouldn’t masturbate because touching your vulva is disgusting.) Sometimes, this manifests as a dude who won’t eat pussy or have period sex because OMG GROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSS.
Don’t fuck that guy! He is a douchebag and also probably not good in bed. Also, do not fuck anyone who thinks penises are OMG GROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSS, because they are also douchebags and probably not good in bed. But the problem is not the lack of oral sex; the problem is the disgust for a person’s genitalia. Pussy-possessors of the world, even if Pussies Are Gross Dude has period sex, you still shouldn’t fuck him, because he thinks your genitalia (and thus your sexuality) is disgusting.
Her second decent point is that if your partner doesn’t care about your pleasure, that is a giant Red Flag. Everyone gets to have boundaries, of course. But people who are actually good in bed have accepted that no two people’s kinks match up 100% and in a sexual relationship sometimes you will have to do sex acts you’re not that fond of. If you refuse to do any sex act that doesn’t turn you on, no matter how much it turns your partner on, you’re kind of a douchebag. Compromise is what grown-up sexual relationships are all about.
About ozyfrantz
@Tamen
As for your last paragraph – yes, when applied in broader terms as your example it probably will not affect you as much as if your SO said so to your face. It does however contribute to the cultural narrative about what sex acts one can’t refuse – hence a part of rape culture as defined by Ozy. And given enough of those advice columns saying women are misandrist when they won’t do blow-jobs the chances that a sex partner say it to your face increases as it becomes a social accepted stance.
True enough. I think the counterexample I gave – about women who won’t give BJs (or have anal, or facials, or whatever) being prudes has probably contributed to that aspect of rape culture in some ways, so I can definitely see the same thing happening to men.
On the other hand, I think there really are guys who have misogynistic reasons for refusing to give head, for example (one that Jill pointed out, and that I’ve actually heard in real life, is that it’s somehow effeminate, which is a whole level of WTF, but is surprisingly common nonetheless). There’s also the fact that women’s sexual desires are often ignored or written off. How can we talk about those facts without contributing to that aspect of rape culture? I think we can – not here, necessarily, since this is a blog about men’s issues and not women’s – it’s just a question of figuring out how to do it.
@ Brett
“There’s also the fact that women’s sexual desires are often ignored or written off.”
I think men’s sexual desires outside of PiV intercourse (or the idea that a lot of men don’t get off from PiV intercourse) are often ignored or actively stigmatized.
Wanting oral sex seems to be seen as being a disgusting sexual imposition on a woman and/or a way of dominating her. Wanting anal sex is the same as wanting oral sex except ten times worse. Wanting a hand job instead of PiV sex is rarely addressed because in the stereotypical sex acts hierarchy, men prefer PiV to hand jobs, blow jobs to PiV and anal to everything else.
And that’s not even getting into the stigma attached to nipple play, foreskin play(if he has one) or anal play(on the guy).
Looking from the outside in the Man Sex Script is: Get Hard, no matter what, PiV for as long as possible(hopefully till she orgasms), Get Off, no matter what. If she doesn’t orgasm, it’s your fault; if you don’t orgasm it’s your fault. If she doesn’t get wet, it’s your fault; if you don’t get hard, it’s your fault.
In this sense the Standard Sex Script, while defined by a male orgasm, is really more defined by the idea that men don’t have the right not to orgasm.
Well, Brett, if you ask me there are really narratives for each gender that suggest we should all be downplaying sexual desire. For women there’s the whole “ladies only have sex to keep a man, they don’t actually like it” thing, and for men there’s the “too driven by sexual desire, prone to exploiting partners” thing. Like, yes, people do need to be careful that they aren’t pressuring a partner to perform sex acts that partner isn’t into… but at the same time, there is simply nothing wrong with wanting a satisfying sex life, articulating one’s desires, and taking steps to find compatible partners. Plus it’s not like you can just un-expand your horizons.
Part of what might help square this circle is the fact that people don’t universally like or dislike the same stuff. I would definitely not stay with a guy who is unwilling to give oral, because it’s a big part of sex for me. But, I’ve heard from enough women who can’t get off from oral at all, and are completely indifferent to it. Men who have a difficult time with giving oral sex are probably well advised to find a woman who isn’t particularly into it.
This is where I thought the Feministe posts went off the rails… So all men should be willing to give head, and have period sex, but women have the option of being passionate about, indifferent to, or completely uninterested in, receiving oral and having sex during our periods? Umm, pretty sure people naturally have diverse preferences, and we’re best off looking for someone whose preferences overlap with ours to a large extent.
Or, I mean, for some couples sex is nothing close to a high priority, so compromise that leads to more stuff getting taken off the menu is a good option for some people, too.
@Brett
You know what, your idea is pervasive in our society today. You can have it all if you just wait and find that “right” person. I have no doubt that sex is important to many people. Just like money is important to others and thin women for some others. That still doesnt change the fact that if you relate to someone on multiple levels but still feel the need to show them the door because they dont have period sex, you are probably just a tad shallow. I would think its not rocket science to figure out someone doesnt match your sexual interest from a very early standpoint. If you get to the point where you love them and then dump them because they dont like period sex or pretty much any other kind of sex I think there is something wrong with your thinking process. But hey,what do I know, being a privileged white heterosexual man.
Brett K: I’m pretty sure there exists men who have misogynistic reasons for not giving head, just as there are women who have misogynistic reasons for not giving head. As I’ve stated in an earlier comment:
typhonblue:
For quite a while after a girl started to fuck while I slept I were anorgasmic. This caused no end of hassle and I quickly learnt to fake an orgasm rather than to deal with the fallout of me not having one. Another time I was having sex with a woman who were quite loud, so much that at a certain point I became unsure whether I was hurting her so I stopped to check. Her anger and vitrol made it perfectly clear that me stopping were not an option. I avoided her after that. I was also tired of having to explain at least once to every girlfriend/partner that me declining sex were not about them – when I am too tired to have sex and just want to sleep the idea of having to spend a long time dealing with someone’s inability to accept that at face value is high on the list of thing that gets tiresome. I’ve had women grope me in bars, women lifting up my shirt in bars, women telling me what their estimate of my penis size is. The common belief that only women experience sexual crap irks me to no end. I don’t believe I am an unusual anomoly who has been extraordinarily unlucky.
@ Tamen
“For quite a while after a girl started to fuck while I slept I were anorgasmic.”
I’m sorry Tamen.
Discovering how easy it is to fake orgasms when practicing safe sex and resigning quite quickly to just enjoy the sex and not chase the elusive orgasm, thus removing addition anxiety issues probably helped me get past it faster.
@typhonblue
That’s the script as you (and probably a lot of men) experience it. And it’s a shitty script. But trust me, the script offered to women is no less shitty. I don’t want to play Oppression Olympics here, so can we just agree that no one is really a winner here? Because I really do sympathize, and I feel like detailing my experiences on this blog would only feel like an attempt to downplay yours, and that’s not something I want to do.
@f.
I basically agree with you. I think we interpreted the Feministe post differently (and maybe that was a failure on Jill’s part, I don’t know – she certainly left a lot open to interpretation) but overall, yes, you are right. If there’s anything we’ve gotten from this discussion, it’s that we all have different desires, and that’s okay.
@TitforTat
I don’t think you and I are really going to agree on this issue. For the most part, that’s okay! You and I are different people and we clearly have different priorities. Sex is a big part of what makes me happy. Money and thinness (the examples you brought up) are much less important, but they might be important to other people. I, personally, am the sort of person who would rather be single than be with someone who does not make me happy.
So, does breaking up with someone who doesn’t make me happy mean that I am shallow? No, it means that I would rather be single than in an unsatisfying relationship. Maybe you feel differently. That’s fine. Please stop calling me shallow, though. It hurts my feelings.
@Tamen
I probably should have addressed that particular point of yours (the one you just quoted) in the last comment I made, because yes, I agree with you 100%. Just as someone has a right to break up with someone even if I disagree with their reasons (even my ex, and seriously, fuck that dude), someone has a right to refuse sex for any reason. Even if their reason is douchey. It doesn’t matter. Their partner still has zero right to coerce them, and should go to jail if they do. So, yes.
Also, the situation you described is absolutely awful. I’ve experienced similar things, and they have been absolutely sickening every single time. I’m sorry you had to go through that, and I hope you’re okay now.
@Brett K
Typhonblue is a woman btw.
Anecdote here, but a lot of people think I’m a man too, on feminist blogs, because I defend men’s point of view, participation and consideration.
It’s part of a consideration for other trans women, and also men, who I don’t wish to live through the same thing I did. That’s because I lived it.
Typhonblue’s motive is different, but no less about avoiding this fate for others.
@Schala
Wow, I had no idea. I certainly respect both of you for defending men’s point of view, but I think my point still stands. The Standard Sex Script is shitty for everyone. I don’t want to get into the ways in which it’s shitty for women, because that’s not the point of this blog and it’s kind if hard for me to talk about anyway, for personal reasons, but nobody is a winner there. That’s why this blog exists.
@ Brett
I never intended to make it an issue of who has it worse. I just got the impression (wrongly or rightly) that you might not have been aware just how profoundly bad the standard script is for men as well. At least in my opinion.
My interest isn’t in deciding who has it worse, my interest is in a clear understanding of how things suck that incorporates all points of view.
“Also, the situation you described is absolutely awful. I’ve experienced similar things, and they have been absolutely sickening every single time.”
Well, yeah. Because what happened to Tamen was rape. And it sounds like he lost, at least for a time, a large part of the pleasure of sex. Horrible. But not surprising. And it’s unfortunate that he didn’t feel safe divulging his anorgasmia to his partners because of the pressure of the Standard Script(tm) for men. (I hope I’m not putting words in your mouth, Tamen)
@typhonblue
I realize, in retrospect, that that was what you were doing, and I totally see where you were coming from. I have some idea of how bad that script is for men, but obviously, never having experienced it, I’ll never fully understand it. I just try my best, as I hope many men do when it comes to how much the script sucks for women.
I also agree that what happened to Tamen was rape. Anorgasmia is an issue for a lot of people (and has been for me as well, at certain times) and is fraught with all kinds of cultural baggage, much of which can lead to coercive and otherwise awful situations. Anyway, though, Tamen, I hope you are okay now and I really hope that you continue to comment here, because you are awesome.
My wife had unprotected sex with some random before we where married. When she came home she encouraged me to go down on her which i did. I found out about this after we got married.
Now many years later I just cant do it. I gag getting close and have vomited several times attempting.
A couple of times the vomiting happened when I was under the pressure of “if you wont do this you don’t love me and perhaps we have no future”. The woman told everybody she knew that I hated women so much that the smell of vagina made me vomit.
It is really not something I find easy to explain but saying “I don’t do that” just about always offends. There really is some double standard when men try to say “no”.
BTW I also never ask or let women give me oral either because I know I can not reciprocate.
You’re missing the entire point of that period sex article. It was not written to say that men who won’t have period sex suck and they shouldn’t have a choice. It was pointing out that vaginas have been looked at as these gross, dirty things for too long and it makes vagina-owners ashamed and self-conscious. So when your boyfriend says “eewwwww icky period vag” it’s not exactly the nicest way to treat your significant other.
Stacie: I certainly agre with the non-niceness (to put it mildly) of saying “eewwwww icky period vag”, but if that was the point then the author would be much better served by not writing
Note, she didn’t write that you’re kind of a dick if you say in an abbrasive manner that period are disgusting, no she wrote that you’re kind of a dick for thinking it.
Here the thought chaing seem to be:
Like sex, but don’t like period sex means not not liking normally-functioning vaginas which again should disqualify you from ever fucking a woman. I mean, how else than “suck it up and fuck my menstruating me even if you don’t want to because otherwise you’re a dick who doesn’t deserve to have sex with women” can this be read?!
“You’re missing the entire point of that period sex article. ”
And you’re mising the point of this post. this post is saying it is rapey to guilt-trip and manilpulate your partner into a sex act he doesn’t want to do. the point of the original article are to at issue, its rapey and hypocritical tactics are the issue.
Believe me, we all get the genital-shaming bit. Penises are considered deadly weapons in the Patriarchy and in many comments in feminist spaces; we get the shaming bit from the day we’re born. Words for vaginas and penises are used as pejoratives all over the place. We get all that.