[Previous posts in this series: one. Responding to Yvain's Meditations on assorted social-justice-y and dating topics, which can be found here if you scroll down a bit.]
Nice Guys are one of the few topics guaranteed like circumcision and feminism to get people to argue. Seriously, post about the prison-industrial complex and there are two responses, post about Nice Guys and the thread is raging for the next three years.
I think the fundamental problem with Nice Guy discourse is that it confuses two completely different things.
The first is that sometimes there are people who lurk around having a crush on someone in their general direction without actually doing anything about it. If a man does it, we call it being a Nice Guy; if a woman does it, we call it normal. Unfortunately, there is a bit of a problem with this strategy. According to the Law of Conservation of Fuckery, every time the other person is romantically interested in you, they’ll have no idea you have a crush on them, and every time they aren’t interested in you, they’ll know and end up awkwardly trying to tell you they don’t have a crush on you without outright saying “I know you have a crush on me, but I don’t like you back,” since that’s considered rude in most cultures.
Therefore, this strategy is both rude and quite ineffective.
However, people using rude and ineffective dating strategies is not actually a social justice issue. I don’t think it’s that much of an issue in general, to be honest: most of the people who lurk about having a crush on someone are shy and deeply insecure about their attractiveness, and I’m not sure that there’s anything we can do to make people less shy and deeply insecure. Even if there were, yelling at them about how they’re being Nice Guys is… probably not it.
The second group is that there are people who identify as Nice Guys and are also legitimately assholes.
[Rage comic. Text: "Girls: I want to meet a nice and cute guy. Why? To friendzone him?"]
The prototypical form of this belief, as far as I can tell, is the following: “I am a nice/cute/successful/romantic guy [delete as appropriate]. Women say they want nice/cute/successful/romantic guys. And yet I do not have a girlfriend/the girl I wanted to date rejected me/I am forever alone! It must be because women do not actually like nice/cute/successful/romantic guys, but in fact like jerks, and the problem is that I am TOO GOOD and TOO MORAL a person to give women what they really want.”
I can certainly see why some people would like to believe this, because they get to feel really good about themselves and they don’t have to change anything, and also you get to believe the person you’re jealous of is a jerk, which is something people pretty much always want to believe. However, it is also both misogynistic and incorrect.
The biggest problem is that it assumes that women are a collective hivemind. There is no single thing that all women in the world like. There is no single thing that most women in the world like, even, except maybe “my partner is male.” There are lots of women in the world, and some of them will feel the need to go chase after jerks. I don’t know, maybe they have a Saving People Thing, or they believe they don’t deserve any better than a jerk, or the jerk is really fucking hot. That doesn’t mean that all the women who don’t chase after jerks also like them.
Also, it assumes that human relationships function in a much more transactional model than they actually do. Even if Person X says they want nice, successful, romantic, cute people, and you are a nice, successful, romantic, cute person, it doesn’t mean the only two options are “Person X dates you” and “Person X is lying about not wanting nice, successful, romantic, cute partners.” For instance, they might not be attracted to you. They might only want to date people they find interesting, or that they share political beliefs with, or that have similar sexual desires to them. Maybe they don’t like your smell. The right of people to say “no” to relationships they don’t want is sacred– even if they’re saying “no” for reasons that they don’t explain, or that seem stupid. It is… shitty, in the extreme, to criticize people for not wanting to date one. Rape-culture-y, almost, because it assumes that there are Good Reasons and Bad Reasons not to want to date someone and if you don’t have a Good Reason your ‘no’ is unreasonable.
Note that I’m being agnostic here about whether women actually do like jerks more than men do, or like jerks more often than they admit. I think that’s kind of an irrelevant point. I do, however, think that the Nice Guy point of view is likely to be extremely biased. First, because self-report of niceness is unlikely to tell the truth about how nice someone actually is; second, because people have an incentive to believe that people that they’re jealous of (i.e., who are dating people whom they have a crush on) are jerks.
I would like to make it clear that if this is not about you, then it is not about you. If you’re a #1-type Nice Guy but not a #2-type Nice Guy, I give you permission to ignore all the nice guy stuff. It isn’t about you.
Photo– Ken and Nyetta/Flickr.
Image– A bit of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Scrolls? Meditations? This make sense to anyone else? Oh, forget it.
About ozyfrantz
I feel like that problem Nice Guys tend to be people who hang around puppydoging at stunning women who are way out of their league while judging these hot women for being just as shallow as the Nice Guy is for only wanting to date hot women. These Nice Guys are shallow about looks, and then get all righteous about it when hot women are shallow about only wanting to date hot men. Hello?
What’s even more irritating is when you are a conventionally-attractive girl, dating a non-conventionally-attractive Nice Guy, and he still complains about how “girls only like the pretty boys.” Hello? Did you miss the pretty girl on your arm there, buddy?
If that ever were to happen with me involved, I would fully understand all the irritation and frustration coming out of it…
I think also that a lot of people who think of themselves as “socially-awkward” or “nerdy” tend to go through being at the very least a type 1 NG at some point in their psychosexual development (and that type 2 probably develops from a toxic festering of type 1). As a result, many people can identify a lot of NG (1 and 2) elements in their own past behaviour and their response to that is going to be coloured by the way in which they generally respond to personal criticism.
Hi Ozy.
My mother used to say, your rights end where my nose begins. It’s a good boundaries saying.
I don’t think the idea that it’s “rude” for x to have a crush on y, that x doesn’t tell y, passes that boundaries test. I think this got into the “nice guy” narrative because some x’s manage to get resentments of certain y’s they had crushes on, because they expected the y’s to mind-read their crushes and do something about them. That, certainly, is ridiculous.
But if x has a crush on y and doesn’t tell it, and takes responsibility for not telling it — by not expecting anything more than friendship, if they are friends — then it is a boundary violation, in my opinion, on y’s part to claim there is some kind of Universal Imperative for x’s to spill the beans about a crush x is not overtly expressing. Even if y just knows this up a storm.
If xie hasn’t said anything, xie hasn’t said anything.
And in these situations there is a bit of Social Skills Privilege isn’t there? I mean, speaking developmentally, it is awkward at best for x’s in such situations to tell their crushes. I’m 56, myself, and I still do not have the Developmental chops to imagine this kind of thing going well — particularly if I don’t really want to do it, but I think that Ozy has convinced me that I have some kind of Obligation.
You are really inviting what Captain Awkward calls Feelings Bombs — you should reconsider this!
No, thank god that, not being poly, I can just show my wedding ring and not have anyone think I have any Obligations in that direction. Obligations the other way, indeed.
“If xie hasn’t said anything, xie hasn’t said anything.”
And if zie hasn’t said anything, then zie has no right to complain that “Zie never notices me!!” You know how you get people to notice you? Talk to them.
Actually that is completely compatible with what I said!
Except that I think it is good to be kind to oneself and other people, even when oneself or other people are having Nice Guy #1 issues.
Part of the progression to Nice Guy #2, in my opinion, comes from our specific social gender attitudes, on the part of our major vanilla genders at any rate. The idea that Your Life Should Be Like This and You Should Be Able to Do This, Or You Are A Failure.
Some of the discourse in Nice Guy threads has always seemed to me to partake of this gendered attitude about What Males Should Be Able To Do or else they would be a kind of second-class citizen of life. Social attitudes. What does it take not to be talked down to? that sort of thing.
It is not just about the fun that someone might be missing, though that can cause resentments too. It is about how one is perceived.
And this is where we need to work as a society, not on finding new ways to label troublesome people, but on making the social field one which more welcomes male vulnerability and difficulty, that is supportive of heterosexual men who are not the stereotyped version or who are not having the stereotyped lives.
I definitely agree with this! I spent all of high school having 1-type crushes on guys and still being realistic about them. Usually, I would hang around the guy long enough to find out that he’s not that great and then the crush would go away by itself. It was a very convenient and manageable way to deal with crushes because it led me to learn really early that that’s all they were and the emotions/hormones would go away. So I would kinda *hope* they’d realize and like me, but I didn’t *expect* it.
Also, some people have some mental issues. Like a severe anxiety disorder that keeps them from being able to go out and tell people about their feelings. I know people who are nervous about the very idea of social contact. And once they talk to someone, they’d have anxiety related to telling them something like “This is my favorite movie.”
It goes a bit too far to me to insult them for not telling someone something so personal as “I would like to be romantically involved with you” when it takes ages for them to come around to “I really liked Pirates of the Caribbean..”
Hell yeah, I have social anxiety disorder and it’s incredibly hard just to make friends, especially female friends whom I am interested in, and even more hard to ask them out. I’ve been 1m from one of the top 3 most dangerous snakes in the world, well known for it’s aggression and it wasn’t as scary as thinking of asking out a woman.
I think part of teh problem is there is no shortage of women who say they want x, but then ignore a bunch of x’s and go for what looks like y. Not all women do this of course but enough end up doing it that guys who get told they are nice a lot will think they are nice guys, and thus should be high on attraction like a hot guy would be but their lack of women interested is proving to them differently. When you hear some women say one thing, and then do another it becomes confusing and makes you wonder if those women in particular have a clue as to what they want.
Being told you have this attribute by women, and hearing a lot of women say they want a nice guy, but no women are interested in you makes you wonder if they’re lying or absolutely clueless to what they want. I myself have been called a nice, sweet guy, yet not many women have been interested all the while I’ve heard plenty say they want nice sweet guys. I don’t think of myself as a nice guy, I am just me, but it does make me wonder if those women in particular really understand what they want because it’s pretty confusing to be called the attributes that are apparently what they want, but they don’t want you?
I think part of [the] problem is there is no shortage of women who say they want x, but then ignore a bunch of x’s and go for what looks like y.
This is a human thing, not a woman thing. Humans can be fickle and multilayered and conflicted, and that’s certainly not restricted to any one gender. It’s also pretty silly to accuse women of being clueless liars for not wanting to date you, just because they both call you nice and don’t want to date you. Most of us (male and female) want a nice* partner, but we also want someone who’s compatible in other ways- in other words, nice tends to be a necessary but not sufficient criteria for dating. I’ve met thousands of nice people over my lifetime, but only wanted to date a small fraction of them, and I suspect it’s pretty similar for most humans.
*Since it’s such a nebulous word, I’m defining “nice” as “generally kind and considerate of others.”
I agree, I should add that it was my previous belief, I’ve moved on since then n realized humans vary a lot. I might not have said it in the comment but none of what I said ONLY applies to the one gender, I know “nice girls” and guys that fuck em around.
“It’s also pretty silly to accuse women of being clueless liars for not wanting to date you, just because they both call you nice and don’t want to date you. Most of us (male and female) want a nice* partner, but we also want someone who’s compatible in other ways”
That’s one of the big problems in the whole nice guy theme, too much emphasis on nice and as I explain in another comment it’s only part of the attraction as you say. But it’s also a trait that is good for friendship. Can you see why though I did feel these women were full of shit at the time? Being routinely told x but they would date guys who aren’t actually nice, guys I knew to be assholes, etc. Based on that info I think many nice guys get the feeling women want jerks, it seems to be a pretty popular opinion. However they don’t realize that jerks can often act very suave n nice and hide themselves well, at least to members of the opposite sex. Guys can usually spot bad guys easier than girls can, and girls can spot bad girls easier than guys can so niceguys will see the jerk but she may see the nice, decent, sweet, charming, funny/etc guy.
I believe it’s also more common in youth?
“Guys can usually spot bad guys easier than girls can, and girls can spot bad girls easier than guys can.”
I don’t know that that’s necessarily true. I think that girls are probably quicker to judge other girls and guys are quicker to judge other guys. It’s easier to *think* you know someone’s life if they’re your own gender and there’s always the competition factor. When I hear about girls “warning” guys of other girls, I always take it with a grain of salt and the other way around.
Well, for me personally I can understand and judge guys better than I can girls.
Haha…and I get judged by girls more than I get judged by guys.
“…nice tends to be a necessary but not sufficient criteria for dating. I’ve met thousands of nice people over my lifetime, but only wanted to date a small fraction of them, and I suspect it’s pretty similar for most humans.”
^ THIS. Thank you for articulating so clearly what I felt but was struggling to find words for!
It feels like we’re getting closer to the questions that I feel like I’m looking for in these discussions but never get directly addressed:
1. What are the sorts of criteria in addition to “nice” that makes a person want to date someone?
2. What can men do who are nice but have had little to no success in dating do to fulfill more of those criteria?
I know that what individuals want are different, but I can’t ask about a specific woman when every woman I’m interested in either has directly rejected me or is in another relationship. When you aggregate the results over a lot of attempts and get five years of nothing but rejection from people you’re interested in (my current situation), it’d be nice to have a plan for how to make the next five years less likely to go like that.
“1. What are the sorts of criteria in addition to “nice” that makes a person want to date someone?”
If someone could crack the magic code and come up with a solution to that one, they’d be richer than Midas. See also: What are the sorts of criteria in addition to “athletic skill” that makes a winning sports team? I only wish I had the answers to either of those two questions and could happily retire to a cabin in a vast mountain range (not really a Greek islands kind of person).
And in all seriousness, I think that is the cornerstone of the frustration with dating…it’s so nebulous, variable, vague, random and at the same time fraught with so much emotional vulnerability. We’re all trying to find a way to navigate it without stumbling, without risk, without getting hurt, and that’s just not possible :/ Still, I think over a lifetime, the rewards are worth it.
“1. What are the sorts of criteria in addition to “nice” that makes a person want to date someone?”
For men trying to attract women…broadly speaking: extraversion, confidence, assertiveness, leading behaviour, warmth, kindness, empathy, humour, social status and looks.
“2. What can men do who are nice but have had little to no success in dating do to fulfill more of those criteria?”
Looks are easiest…dress better, get a good haircut, workout.
The other traits are a hell of a lot more complicated. I think it is possible to change aspects of your personality and behavior. To make yourself a better man. But it can’t be done directly. It requires a change in values, habits and a lot of conscious effort unless your a psychopath in which case its a lot easier. The empathy, warmness and kindness is also difficult. I would say this is a side project…the make yourself a better man project. Its long term.
The short term solution is to not focus on making yourself more attractive to women. Just play it as a numbers game. Meet more of them. Focus on superficial qualities that you can change like looks and how you dress. Be more assertive in going after women. Compliment them, ask them out, go for the kiss, be honest about your attraction. This is the best short term solution and it will get you 90% of what you want.
There aren’t a lot of universals because, as you say, people differ. One very common trait women look for is often described as “confidence.” Too often this is interpreted to mean some sort of horrid full-of-himself Alpha Male blowhard, but what I think it means for most women is someone who basically likes and respects himself. Not that you have no issues, flaws, or self-doubts, but that you’ve done enough emotional work to be aware of what those are and actively working on them; and that you appreciate and consistently make use of your positive qualities. You aren’t always humorously-but-not-really putting yourself down or lamenting your lot in life. If you’re different from the mainstream or the social ideal in some way – physically, neurologically, whatever – you’re OK with that and you don’t fish for approval/forgiveness from random members of your social group, nor do you feel the need to reflexively insult members of the more privileged group to justify your own traits.
If you’ve had abuse, bad parenting, or bullying in your life, it can definitely take a while to get to that point! (It did for me.) Sometimes it takes therapy, coaching, or antidepressants. But what won’t work is expecting a girlfriend to do that psychological work for you, or magically remove the need to do it. You have to get there on your own.
I don’t think this is inherently gendered, by the way. Men look for emotionally healthy women, too.
Yes, I agree. There is no one thing that all women (or men) want. there is no specific list of qualities that will guarantee you success with who you want it with. There are certain traits that will generally raise your chances, but one needs to approach it not like some formula that works like magic. It’s more about being the best you that you can be, so that you can be happy, and by being that person you will make those around you happy as well.
First: consider who it is that YOU want. What sort of person do you imagine yourself being happy with? Now look at yourself: do YOU have those same qualities you desire? If not, then that’s what you need to work on first. Also, be honest about looks. Are you only going after really hot people, or are you going after people around the same range as yourself? You have to be honest to yourself if you are limiting potential partners because you’re being too picky about looks. Also, are you doing everything you can to look your best? There are ways for both genders to enhance or improve what they’ve got (clothes, hair, working out, scents, etc.)
There are some things you have to accept are out of your control. No matter how well you treat someone they may never find you attractive, for any number of reasons. Just try to look your best and accept it.
Reasons why they aren’t attracted to you: your physical looks, your body language, you have a very different lifestyle or tastes or values than they have, you don’t have the same sense of humor as them, you don’t have enough in common with them to hold a really engaging conversation with them, you look like their dad, you’re acting pushy or controlling, etc.
Also, if it’s a random chat up in a bar or something, the other person may just not be in the mood, because they just had a bad break up, had a really bad date, or have been hit on several times by really pushy people and now they want to be left alone. None of that is your fault, so rejection doesn’t necessarily have anyting to do with you.
There are people who aren’t that hot who still find really great partners. Look at what qualities they have. They have something else to offer: intelligent conversation, they make people laugh, they make people feel good about themselves because they’re always positive and have something good to say about others, they’re a good listener, etc. You have to offer something, and if you’re shy it can be hard because you may very well have something to offer, but don’t know how to share it so that others know it’s there. that’s party of why confidence helps so much – not only does it make others feel more comfortable around you (if people can sense you’re insecure some part of them wonders why, and whether they should be worried about it) but also, they know who you are.
There are nice guys who do have something to offer, and they just need to learn to get over their shyness (I know, it is very hard, i’m still going down that road).
There are also nice guys who don’t have much to offer. A lot of them don’t realise it, in which case they need to work on themselves to be more aware of whether they’ve gotten stuck in habits that are holding them back. They may have the potential, but have gotten stuck in their lives and don’t realise it.
Some of them do realise it, and are insecure and depressed, in which case they really need to seek help – therapy or similar. If you’re depressed and have low self esteem, you need to seek help for that. you won’t get it from other people. it creates a vicious cycle where you put yourself down for being too this or too that, and it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy – you’re too scared of being judged to make the changes necessary to get out of it and meet your potential.
“Confidence” doesn’t mean being a controlling jerk, it means being comfortable with being yourself. nobody can find out that they want you if they don’t know who you are, because you’re hiding it or faking being someone else.
PS) Yes, there are some women who date men who don’t treat them well (and vice versa) or who only seek out money. but who wants to be with someone like that? clearly they have issues that will probably create drama you shouldn’t be getting involved in anyways. I wouldn’t want to date someone that superficial.
It disturbs me greatly that you believe women only have one single prerequisite for a prospective partner that needs to be filled just because you aren’t personally aware of all the others. Do you honestly believe every single woman whose looking for a guy is going to have a laundry list of all the qualities they (think) they want in a dude to be able to give out at a moment’s notice? Because you have a Right To Know these things, and if you don’t, then they’re hiding something from you and therefore… lying?
Dude, stop it with the egotism. Women don’t owe you anything.
Amazing how much you can read into my comment and guess what I’m thinking. What makes you think I “believe women only have one single prerequisite for a prospective partner that needs to be filled just because you aren’t personally aware of all the others.”?? I don’t think women are the same, these days I am not all that confused by it because I know more. I was trying to state why there is confusion amongst “nice guys” and how the actions of some women can make it more difficult to believe what these women are saying when they say they want X and go for Y.
“Dude, stop it with the egotism. Women don’t owe you anything.”
I’m not being egotistic, you however are being rude, condescending, and telling me what I think which is extremely insulting. Why the hostility? Is it so hard for you to ask me what I think instead of telling me? It disturbs me deeply that you’re willing to accuse me of being egotistical without knowing much about me, based on a comment I wrote quickly as a way to stir up discussion on the topic.
” I was trying to state why there is confusion amongst “nice guys” and how the actions of some women can make it more difficult to believe what these women are saying when they say they want X and go for Y.”
^And that is the problem right there. You are assuming that your interpretation of X and Y are the same as her interpretation. Considering that every human has their own method of problem solving, reasoning, and looking at a situation, it is unlikely that your interpretation of her interests/actions is the exact same as her interpretation.
Personal anecdote: I dated the same guy for five years, but we decided to take a break from the relationship for a little while to date other people to make sure that we were still very much in love and not just comfortable with where we are. I ended up dating this other guy (on and off) who I had been friends with for a while and therefor knew a few of the qualms I had about my previous relationship. He figured that because he didn’t do the things that he knew had bothered me about my previous relationship, he was the perfect guy, even though I didn’t think so and was actually still quite in love with the previous guy. He actually sent me this insanely whiney e-mail about how this was essentially him applying for a job that he was perfectly qualified for, but I was passing him over for someone who didn’t meet the minimum qualifications.
But here’s the thing: just because the former guy (who two years later is my husband) didn’t like to hang out with me and my female friends on occasion didn’t make the later guy perfect when he did. Just because the former guy had some issues with scheduling his personal life (he’s still terrible with calendars), didn’t mean the former guy was perfect when he was able to keep everything together.
What I cared about more is that the former guy would allow me my time to study when and where I wanted so that I felt prepared for tests. Later guy had his “rules” about when and where I could study if he was around, which ended up absolutely tanking my grades, and a future career mattered to me far more than the two previously listed qualms. It’s the difference in perception of actions that really makes the difference here.
More than that, the later guy threatening to hit me when I told him I was still in love with the former guy after the later guy had gone over all of his “excellent qualifications” with me REALLY didn’t help the situation. And he was still convinced he was a “nice guy” afterwards. (Not that I’m saying you’re an abuser, but I am saying that a lot of men who claim to be “nice guys” do have insufferable asshole qualities, and the rest of the legitimately “nice guys” suffer for it. Maybe instead of ragging on women about their behaviors, you should start calling out guys who claim to be “nice guys” and are actually assholes. Change from within the group.)
A woman may say that she’d prefer certain behaviors, but they aren’t necessarily base-line qualifiers. The later guy really, REALLY did not respect my emotions and opinions when they differed from his, and that is what really turned me off to him.
Basically all of this boils down to: respect her right to think for herself and to think DIFFERENTLY from you. Affording her that respect and giving her the necessary space isn’t being a “Nice Guy,” it’s being a decent human being. And I think that if more men cared about being “decent people” rather than “nice guys,” much of the heated debate about the subject of being a “nice guy” would vanish.
“^And that is the problem right there. You are assuming that your interpretation of X and Y are the same as her interpretation. Considering that every human has their own method of problem solving, reasoning, and looking at a situation, it is unlikely that your interpretation of her interests/actions is the exact same as her interpretation.”
I’ve changed my thought patterns since then, I don’t really listen to what people say they want in a partner too much these days because it’s at best a vague guide.
“Not that I’m saying you’re an abuser, but I am saying that a lot of men who claim to be “nice guys” do have insufferable asshole qualities, and the rest of the legitimately “nice guys” suffer for it. ”
I don’t think of myself as nice, I can be a real asshole at times depending on who rubs me the wrong way. I’m usually naturally nice for people that deserve it, helpful where I can be but I do that because I like helping others, like making the world better, like their reaction and it makes me feel good. I do that without expectation of anything except respect. But I can at times be selfish, stubborn, etc so I don’t think of myself as nice anymore, I am just me…good and bad combined. I leave it to others to figure out who I am, some call me an asshole (usually people who are negative and have annoyed me thus copped an earful from me), others call me sweet n nice?
“Maybe instead of ragging on women about their behaviors, you should start calling out guys who claim to be “nice guys” and are actually assholes. Change from within the group.)”
Some women need to be ragged on, and some guys need to be called out on their behaviour. I do both where I see it. I try to get the nice guy friends to understand every woman is different and can’t be put into a small box like they commonly are with their desires. But why should I focus on calling them out, and not call those particular women out on their poor behaviour? Why the deflection? Why not call both out on bad behaviour? No point changing the group for the better only to have some will still act like assholes n continue the cycle of creating bitterness, you have to tackle both groups together to do any real change.
“And I think that if more men cared about being “decent people” rather than “nice guys,” much of the heated debate about the subject of being a “nice guy” would vanish.”
I think maybe half would but most debate I see of nice guys are from pretty genuine guys who get treated like shit, or at still young n don’t understand much in the world. Both require more women to behave better whilst also changing themselves to some degree or at least learning that not all women are the same, etc.
The genders in this comment can be swapped every which way, I’ve seen nice girls and asshole guys that use em, the nice girls need to drop bitterness like the nice guys and the asshole guys need to be called out on their behaviour. So whilst I will be calling out bad behaviour in guys and girls I know, will you also be calling out bad behaviour in guys but also the girls too? I’m getting this sense that the onus is being put back on the men to behave better in your comment without it being ok to comment about women’s behaviour, why is that?
Well, to me, respect of other’s right to think for themselves is just common sense. I can’t see how that would be a make-or-break specifically for “nice guys”.
Well, you did say women are lying or clueless because they don’t want to date you. That’s a pretty mean (and illogical) thing to say. I can see why L was disturbed; I was a bit disturbed myself.
“makes you wonder if they’re lying or absolutely clueless to what they want” does not equal “women are lying or clueless”. I also meant those particular women that were saying it to the nice guys, not all women. That they were saying things like You’re such a nice guy, you’re a great guy, so sweet, women love nice sweet guys, women would love to date you, you’ll make a girl very happy one day, etc. Basically they’re calling you hot in personality but there is a lack of women that YOU see interesting in you.
Probably didn’t clarify it enough but wondering if they are lying, and actually thinking they are lying are quite different. By wondering they may or may not be lying, you sit there thinking through all the stuff and trying to work out if they are lying, or if there is something else going on, it took me a while to realize that nice is only one trait and that’s a trait that is also good for just friendship. I was young, naive, and had too many niceguys as friends who weren’t having enough luck so I wasn’t getting many good representations of relationships.
Another thing I learned was that I think I didn’t understand the signs of a woman who is interested either, and even to this day I find it a bit hard to know when a woman is interested. The whole body language of looking your way a few times, being touched, etc. I may have had women interested but I was too blind to see it, I’ve heard women will touch your arm quite a bit an be close to you if they like you, I remember one woman doing that but I always figured she was just being friendly. I also had another tell me they had a crush on me many years later and I was oblivious to that. My guess is quite a lot of nice guys are failing to read interest?
Does that make it anymore clear?
Reread the article, particularly where the author describes seeing human relationships as more transactional than they are.
Jane Doe may say she wants a blond guy, and you may be a blond guy. But that doesn’t mean the only two options are that 1.) She wants YOU specifically, or 2.) She could be lying about wanting a blond guy. How about maybe 3.) She wants some OTHER blond guy? Or even 4.) Being blond is great…but not enough by itself to attract her?
I agree with @mayfly. I think neither men nor women have very good grasp of what triggers their attraction. That’s why we use vague terms like chemistry to describe attraction. A part of what we call chemistry is probably literally (bio)chemistry. Asking someone what traits they want in a partner is very theoretical. Accordingly you get platitudes like “I want a nice guy”.
That said, I think you have a point. In the comments from Nerdlove’s latest post the idea that women can sense misogyny came up. In the context of Nice Guys a similar argument is often made: “If you were really nice you could find a girlfriend. But you can’t therefore you must just pretend to be nice as a means to manipulate women and they can sense that”. According to this men who can find a girlfriend must be genuinely nice, non-manipulative. The gist of the argument is that women judge the goodness of men by granting them access to their vaginas. If I put it that hyperbolic it sounds downright absurd.
Nonetheless the general idea that women reward or should reward good men with sex is common. I think, the underlying idea is that women are more moral and less driven by carnal instincts compared to men. The obvious solution is to get rid of this stereotype. Women and Men chose their partners for all kinds of reasons, good ones, shallow ones, sometimes immoral ones. We should judge them by the same standard. But this also entails that women lose the moral high ground they often like to claim in romantic matters.
Agreed. I find this especially troubling “If you were really nice you could find a girlfriend.”. It could be that they really are nice but are unlucky in who they meet, might not be very attractive, might be too shy, might be unaware of women who are digging them and thus miss opportunities. There are so many reasons why people can be single without wanting to be.
Yes, it’s the just world fallacy applied to dating.
Agreed. I find this especially troubling “If you were really nice you could find a girlfriend.”. It could be that they really are nice but are unlucky in who they meet, might not be very attractive, might be too shy, might be unaware of women who are digging them and thus miss opportunities. There are so many reasons why people can be single without wanting to be.
Yes. And I think this is something that gets ignored when talking about the whole Nice Guy bit. It’s like when a guy is single it’s either because he doesn’t want to date or he really is a sucky loser because if he were really nice he’d have no problem meeting women he likes and like him back.
This seems to be the way it is treated, Danny. Men are sucky losers if they can’t get a date, but I never see it that way when it is women who can’t get a date… then it is because men are shallow and only care about looks or some other excuse. It just seems to me that if a man has a problem with dating it is his fault, and if a woman has a problem dating, it is the fault of men.
I think you may be suffering from confirmation bias here (preferentially perceiving behavior that fits your preconceptions.) I can assure you that women who talk about their difficulty finding dates are very often stereotyped by men as “too picky” or insulted as too ugly/assertive/unfeminine/career driven, etc. etc.
Archy—
It pains me to read your post about getting “passed over” even though you are a nice, sweet guy….but please pay attention to what Ozy was saying…it’s not all about you…or even the women you encounter….what I mean is that chemistry or kismet is such a magical and mysterious thing that happens between two people…
My future husband was practically standing next to me for a year in grad school…yes, he was very nice and sweet and cool and talented, but I did not really see him as a future partner (i.e., I had blinders on and was scared to even think of anybody in a romantic way since I was involved in an abusive relationship at the time)….When he finally did ask me out, I said “no” because I did not see myself as available (i.e., it was a very dangerous time for me to stake out my independence)…..It took me a while to readjust my head and see that I might be passing up the opportunity of a lifetime….
Keep taking small steps…get out there and do stuff that you love to do…sometimes when you are enjoying an activity and having fun and in the flow, amazing people come into your orbit …I have always met the most incredible people by chance or when I was busy doing something, not when I was hanging out in bars/parties trying to scope people out….keep trying….
Have you checked out any of Neil Strauss’ videos on youtube?
I should have added it was my earlier belief, not the one I hold these days. A few years ago I was more of the stage 3 niceguy? Not sure if Ozy has described it, a mix of bitterness, confusion, hurt, but also a genuine nice nature (one which often got me “used” for because I hadn’t learned to show it to decent people at that stage). I had been naturally nice to people but it got me used, and I started to hear from others and also start to believe myself that being nice, or too nice was a surefire way to fuck up your chances of getting a partner…so I buried it. I saw other guys though who were genuinely decent n nice people but they didn’t have much luck either, I also saw the niceguy #2′s. The majority of “nice guys” I know though have been hurt by women somehow, are usually shy, have been unlucky enough to know a few of the women who are users and use them for attention, etc. Most women my age that I knew just after highschool were users, after 25ish I had met quite a few nice women who undid all the damage the users did and I dropped my bitterness. Another problem is when nice guys group together, they become a sounding board for each other’s bitterness and it can rise.
Confusion would arise because they’d hear from the girls they liked that they want nice guys, even popular media can suggest it, and being told they were nice but being seen as a brother really becomes confusing. You’re a male, you’re apparently this nice sweet person who is meant to be attractive but the woman you like isn’t interested, add a few more experiences like that and you can get quite a lot of guys who will think women are full of shit with what they say (which is wrong since not all women are the same, and being nice doesn’t guarantee you success).
The concept of the nice guy seems to be spread everywhere so I am guessing it happens quite often, from my understanding it’s a mix of men misunderstanding female attention (thinking she wants more), being told regularly that “women like nice men” by women themselves, being told you’re nice n sweet but they love you like a brother. I don’t think they’re being told that many women don’t like pushovers, that being nice is a pretty basic trait and it can make you more of a friend, and for others it can make you seen as more attractive. I’m guessing many “nice guys” are ONLY being told the whole “women like nice guys” bit without the rest which adds to the confusion. I’m glad there are articles though telling men not to ACT nice, not to be pushovers, be yourself and stick up for yourself, be confident, etc. I wish I could have told myself 10 years ago that being nice CAN increase your attractiveness but women need other attributes too (which vary of course).
I know why I didn’t get much luck with women, I was a socially awkward male with an anxiety disorder who didn’t actually hit on women, I think I’ve asked out one girl in highschool and got rejected n that crushed me, and in adulthood I asked out maybe 3 or 4, 2 rejections, 2 that went for a bit n didn’t work. I was probably expecting women to hit on me first but currently that’s rare as hell, I didn’t do much chasing so I didn’t get in the game really. Now these days most women I meet are married or dating already (small town, more men than women I think) so I’ll just wait until I find someone single who I like and try get the courage to talk to them. That’s the hardest part for me, is the courage to talk to new people male or female but I am currently working on that with good success.
I do have quite a few friends who are the typical “nice guy”, some are the genuine nice but shy or hurt, some I know are probably niceguy#2, but the people that get the most dates, etc and who even get long term relationships are the outgoing assholes who are heavily misogynist and quite frankly make me wonder how the hell they get women. I see this, other guys I know see this which is probably why it’s commonly thought women like assholes however I also realized a while ago that they may get a lot of 1 night stands but there are heaps of decent n nice guys who are married now. It wasn’t until we were all 25+ that I started to notice that, which also makes me think that another part of the problem was simply youth and inexperience. I wasn’t old enough or around people old enough to have steady n stable relationships, marriages, etc. I was mostly focused on people my age who at the time seemed to be quite fickle and still finding themselves, what they want outa life, etc. I do wonder how many nice guys exist after 30. I’m hoping nice guys will read what I am saying here and it might help them realize that not all women are the same, and to give more attention to the variety of people n relationships around. My advice is be yourself, don’t be nice because you think it’ll get you into her heart, don’t bother with negative people/users, what people think they want is only a small part of the picture as I think a lot of it comes from that random lil spark in your tummy. Can anyone really forsee who they will find attractive or get a crush on? I like nice women myself but it’s only part of the picture, I can’t really stand to date super duper nice sweet women who are very sensitive since I’m a pretty rough kinda guy, I like my action movies n laugh at silly violence in games. Nice is way too broad of a term to truly go by for basing attraction anyone, some people I find nice others find to be assholes.
“Keep taking small steps…get out there and do stuff that you love to do…” Yep, that’s what I’m doing. Although for my hobbies etc the women are pretty much all married with kids, I’m a late 20′s guy and I’m starting to think the majority of people my age are already married in this town. But I’ll keep looking. Thanks for the advice.
“Have you checked out any of Neil Strauss’ videos on youtube?” Not yet, I’ll have to have a look.
My heart goes out to you…Are you in school or taking any classes? Do you belong to a gym or have you tried an activity like martial arts or ping pong or charity walk (or whatever?) ….I guess I am surrounded by too many people here in NYC, but I guess to get to know someone one on one it might help to join your local alumni club or church or hiking group ….Aren’t you in Australia or New Zealand? That sounds like beautiful country? (Viggo as the King in LOTR….sigh…!)
You might find what Neil Strauss has to say on youtube interesting (I don’t like PUA Mystery..he wears that sleazy furry hat and looks like a cheap version of Tommy Lee from Motley Crue…..but I suppose each guy has to figure out what approach works for him!)….Neil is really compelling….I am not saying that you need to change everything drastically overnight…but maybe try something new or different??
“Are you in school or taking any classes? ”
Not at the moment but I am working on getting out more. Most of my problem is social anxiety disorder and not meeting enough people, let alone women to really have success in dating. I’ve put dating on the backburner whilst I sort my life out.
I took me ages to figure out that I was a stage one niceguy. While I can’t say I’ve been hugely more successful in the dating scene, but it’s been less awkward. I still hate approaching though, it’s nervewracking.
It reminds me of something though. When I first heard the concept of ‘the friend zone’, it was concerning ‘the point when someone of any gender identity wasn’t sure if they should risk asking someone out because it might damage a friendship’. Now friendzone seems to mean ‘the worst thing a woman could ever do to anyone ever because I AM A NICE GUY. WOMENS SUX’. Am I the only one who was more familliar with the former term? Or was that some bizarre hallucination I had?
I totally get you on the friendzone thing. What the hell is with that?
“When a guy agrees to be friends, he’s forced to stifle his attraction while regularly seeing and talking to the woman he’s attracted to. She discusses her love life and has the audacity to ask his advice on it. He performs occasional “manly” household and automotive favors for the women. Essentially, he does everything a boyfriend would do – without the benefits.” – From the wiki. Basically that. A painful place to be if you desire more. The harmful version is often a place where the guy is used, she knows he likes her and will do favours for her and she is willing to let it happen. Basically a sexless bf. Extra confusion can be put into place if she is a touchy feely kind of person and cuddles with him, further blurring the lines between friend or more.
Liking someone who doesn’t like you can be painful, a bit annoying but that’s life and I don’t consider that to be friendzone. What I found troubling and what I consider friendzone is being used for favours without the benefit of a relationship. I have friends that I like but I don’t really think of it as friendzone, I just think of it as friendship. But the term seems to vary a bit depending on who you talk to.
Case in point, a female friend who jumps into their lap of a male friend who likes her but she doesn’t like him. She’s overly touchy feely, flirty and obviously this guy is probably going to become aroused due to the physical contact of that manner but she has no intention of dating him, sleeping with him, etc. Guy gets blueballed, gets confused as to what her intentions are because she’s sending signals that seem to indicate she wants more but then pulls out the love you like a brother card and thus you have a guy who’s been friendzoned in a pretty bad way. He will be frustrated, and has every right to be, shit like this is the harmful stuff. I have a friend who had a girl messaging him late at night the colour of her underwear, flirting with him and then nothing. It’s probably fairly rare that this happens though some people are unlucky n meet a few women who do this (or men), and it’s a great way to cause bitterness. If you aren’t interested in fucking or dating a person, don’t get that close to their genitals, don’t tell them intimate details and flirt in such a manner, especially if you aren’t clear of your own intentions. It’s salt in a wound, I think it’s incredibly cruel.
If you find yourself in the “friendzone” then it’s your own fault if you are allowing someone to take advantage of you. What’s so bad about being friends with someone you find sexually attractive, even desire strongly? If it’s not going to happen, you have the responsibility to handle that level of rejection yourself, but if the person wants to have a platonic friendship with you, it’s your own fault if you take that as some kind of consolation prize in life. Make lemons out of lemonade. If this woman is so great, maybe she has friends, a sister, a cousin, coworkers that she can introduce you to, and if she genuinely likes you she might be able to set you up to expand your pool of potential dating prospects. She might not want to date you. But that does not mean she thinks you are wholly undateable. Also, having a female friend who you can rely on for input on things is vital. From advice, to offering a female perspective, anything can help you develop better skills in dating and courtship. It’s about developing confidence, and the best way to do that is to turn what one man might consider a defeating rejection into an opportunity at a quality friendship.
Right. It’s about boundaries. If I have a serious crush on someone, like head over heels, and they play on that but keep me as a friend, but take advantage of my feelings, that’s not friendship. I need to draw a boundary and cut that person off a bit. But, if it a milder attraction and they are actually being a friend, I can enjoy that.
Don’t hang out with people who play you, that’s not friendship. Draw a boundary around it and take care of you.
Yes, exactly, you have to understand when someone is manipulating you because they know that you pine for them, either secretly or openly, that is a person who you do not need around anymore. It seems to me that the “Nice Guys” who bemoan the friendzone or have trouble with rejection make more out of 1 person’s actions than they should. When 1, or 2 women treat you this way, it’s time for you to wise up and realize that you are acting like a sucker and giving in to manipulative people. The feelings of 1 do not speak to that of an entire gender, and how one woman treats you does not mean every woman sees you the same way. It’s like going for a job and not getting it even though you really wanted the job and you know you would really do well. If you can’t convey that to the person hiring you, then you won’t get it. And if they don’t hire you, it does not mean you are never going to find a job that suits you, it just means you will never have THAT job.
Yep, the influential partners/women. Those certain women that come to represent the gender and you only need a few bad ones to cause major resentment in some folk. But if it happens often enough someone can assume that women are manipulative. Life can be tricky like that. There’s blame in the person for allowing themselves to be used and blame in the user themselves, but usually it happens I think when people are naive n young, who mistake those that use them for those that care and if you’ve only been used you might think it’s normal.
Granted, setting boundaries is important. The problem is if you have a crush on someone or worse if you are in love setting boundaries is hard.
The love-interest also has a responsibility to set boundaries and show consistency in what they say and do. That’s the crux in Archy’s anecdote. Alternating between “you’re like a brother to me” and heavy flirting is just shitty behavior, especially if she knows that the guy is into her. I think people seldom have malicious intents in these situation, it’s rather selfishness and carelessness, but that doesn’t make it ok.
To make it clear, I would argue the same if a woman is on the receiving end of a unhealthy relationship dynamic.
Exactly! Given there are no clear boundaries the person has to guess the others intentions, which can be seen in multiple ways. They can ask and be told they’re just a friend, but the other friend doesn’t act like a friend 100% of the time, sometimes they act like a gf and it is highly confusing.
@Archy- ‘The harmful version is often a place where the guy is used, she knows he likes her and will do favours for her and she is willing to let it happen.’
That right there is the problem. I’ve heard it called favour-sharking. When one person has a crush on another person and does favours for them a lot, it isn’t always completely independent of ‘if I do enough nice things for so-and-so, they might eventually fall for me!’ Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. But if it does secretly mean that, then the object of the crush STILL doesn’t owe the crush-ee anything relationship-y. They owe nothing more than to respond in kind. (By which I mean, willing to do you a favour, but not a sexual favour.) If they don’t do that, they are a friend who takes more than they give, and that may be hurtful. If it is, then you should probably end the friendship.
Not all women will have the ‘audacity’ to ask a guy they know has feelings for them for relationship advice with other men. I, personally, have certainly made sure I avoid doing this, though of course levels of empathy vary among women just as they do among men. But don’t forget that it only applies if the woman KNOWS about the feelings you have for her. If she doesn’t, and don’t assume she does if you haven’t told her, then she’s not really at fault. Also, I really think that nobody is forced to be in the kind of friendship the wiki quote describes. If a crush you have is making you miserable because you see the object of your affection all the time and you do nice things for her and you know she doesn’t feel the same way and it’s breaking your heart, then often the best thing to do is withdraw for a while. If you consider her a friend and not someone who is just draining your energy, use a Captain Awkward-style script, something like ‘Friend, because I have feelings for you and am finding it hard to get over them, I think it’s best for me to have some time away from you for a while.’ It is your responsibility to keep a barometer on your own feelings and realise when a friendship is hurtful or damaging, even if the other person is not at fault, and do the right thing for yourself. I know it can be hard. A friendship can indeed be, as you say, ‘A painful place to be if you desire more.’ When you realise that the friendship is painful, it’s time for some space. It is NOT time to favour-shark. And if the crush-ee doesn’t turn down the favour, it doesn’t mean they are doing this because they realise the crush-haver would do anything for them and want to take advantage of this. They may have socially awkward feelings too, like ‘oh my god, it seems like he really wants to do so-and-so for me, if I say no I’m going to seem really ungratious and rude.’ Turning down niceness is not something women are particularly encouraged to do.
Yeah they often do it to try win the others love/affection. It leaves them open to being used for the favours, both are problematic but I think the using is far worse than the simply attempts to win affection. Getting shitty that it doesn’t work however is a terrible thing because they don’t owe you, but I think much of the resentment builds when the other was so willing to accept and use you for it whilst leading you on.
I do nice things for friends but i noticed I was being used by a few women for it as they weren’t doing nice things for me, eg I’d be there n listen to their problems but they didn’t return the favour. I grew resentment to those women for that. I didn’t have that problem with guys because my ability to sense bad guys is far higher than I can with bad girls, the girls I knew communicated differently to guys and it was a bit confusing in my earlier adult years. But I could see the asshole guys easily and just avoided them as friends, yet ended up with a few female assholes that I didn’t pickup on for about a year or 2 when I noticed the friendship was becoming one sided n they were treating me like shit. Only had feelings for one though but they disappeared after I realized her true nature, and I kicked her to the curb so to speak because I don’t want negative people in my life. Life is so much better when surrounded by positive people!
Now that I have known quite a few great women I think I am finding it easier to pickup on the female assholes and avoiding them too.
I was a stage-one NiceGirl for so long it makes me cringe just thinking about it. I spent hours moping over a cute guy in my class, but never got up the courage to say much beyond “Hi” or maybe “Oh, you cut your hair. Looks pretty cool!” And then I wondered why he wasn’t actively pursuing me–I barely talked to him!
I’ve often heard the friendzone used to refer to a state where you are platonic friends but not really close and where makeing the relationship concupiscent would be awkward to talk about. The attitude, which may or may not be true, is that a relationship will develop as either sexual/romantic or platonic fairly quickly after people first meet, and it’s hard to change between the two once the dynamic is established.
Noah Hinz:
According to the post, stage one niceguys “use” concealment of their interest as a “dating strategy”. According to one of the comments, they “expect” women to “mind-read their crushes”. In your case, was it a dating strategy? If so, did you expect your mind to be read? If not, how was the strategy supposed to work?
Daran, if you’re saying that things often get read as so-called “strategies” which are just ways of getting through the day, or the moment — I agree with you completely. This goes to the whole gender thing of men being read as the ones with agency, even when they aren’t exercising it or wouldn’t know how to exercise it to save their lives.
I wasn’t saying anything at all. My purpose in asking those questions was to test my hypothesis (by exposing it to possible falsification) that no man on planet earth has ever concealed his interest in a woman as part of any strategy to date her. Nor does any man who conceals his interest expect her to read his mind. In my case, I didn’t expect her to read my mind. I was terrified that she might.
Here’s a curious thing. When I’ve talked about that fear, other men have responded to say that they felt the same thing. By contrast, I have never once in all the years that I have reading about nice guys, ever read any man say they engaged in the behaviours under discussion, and that concealment was part of a strategy, or that they expected her to figure it out.
I didn’t really think about it. I just got romantically interested in girls and wasn’t sure what do. So I stayed around them, tended to automatically agree with everything they said, went out of my way with gifts and such. And of course, none of this fostered a healthy relationship and whenever I tried to ask about it I was rejected and crushed.
I wasn’t stage two because I just hated myself instead of the girl. I thought I was the lowest scum of the earth. That was of course, not true (I hope). I wondered why they weren’t attracted to me, and thought it was just me.
And of course, I now know that is not true. you can’t just wait around and hope people will be attracted to you.
But that’s kinda beside the point of my post, which was the exact usage of the terminology, and how it came to me what it means. Or maybe I just thought it meant what I thought, and it didn’t actually mean that at all.
This isn’t the first post to note that nice guys and Nice Guys(TM) (for lack of a better term) and different creatures. It’s also been noted by Ozy and others that some nice guys can turn into Nice Guys(TM) if allowed to stew in the wrong way. I don’t think all shy guys can make this transformation, but a disturbingly large proportion are vulnerable to it. I think it starts with a certain set of standard issue sexist stereotypes. The idea that sex & romance is transactional is a mainstream idea and we shouldn’t be surprised when so many people buy into it. The fact that someone is socially inexperienced makes them MORE likely to buy into such commonplace myths. Also there is the all too human fallacy of blaming others for your own faults. I’m no where near solving my social anxiety issues, but at least I own them. A lot of these guys come to blame women for their loneliness, when it’s really their personal flaws, and the flaws of social norms that caused their loneliness.
It’s hard to name a logical reason why rejections hurt so much or why they’re so scary, but they are. In theory one should accept that a romantic or sexual rejection is not personal, that one should move on to the next person. Usually it’s just because that person isn’t ready for, or even wants any relations at that moment, or that there is some incompatibility that would have doomed the relationship anyway. However it still hurts to get rejected, and the idea is still profoundly scary for whatever reason. Getting past that deserves more attention I think. Though I will acknowledge that being able to be honest with one’s feelings is borderline required.
Most of these feminist “Nice Guy” conversations tend to focus on Ozy’s second group. These guys blame women for their problems. While acknowledging them is important, I would rather these posts focus on other issues. How does patriarchy influence our dating preferences? (I theorize that if women do like jerks, it’s because patriarchy presents that behavior as normal and attractive in a man, leading women into bad relationships. Though obviously patriarchy also leads men astray.) There’s a lot of men who fear social/romantic/sexual rejection more than death, why is that? How could someone get over that fear? Is there any way of getting a date even if you lack the ability to ask someone out? How does a nice guy initiate things in a direct way while still being nice? What theory of relationships would work best for a nice guy?
You know i have a problem with the dissmissal of the transactional model of dating. It is not a healty way of wieving the world and dating. But alot of guys probably just react to the role that they have in the dating script. It’s basically hard not to think relationships as transactional if you are the one that has to approach all the time. If that is the only way that you believe that you will get a date or a shot at getting laid or love you will naturally gravitate to see the interaction as an exchange of goods.
You can see the same phenomena everywhere there is two different classes of people, where one has to approach or suggest and the other often has to be the one that declines or accepts.
I doubt that most of these guys view their friendships in the same light. Because they don’t have to do so. Friendships grow naturally for them. But relationships have never been naturall because of the power imbalance.
I’m curious as to how you view this power imbalance. From what you’ve posted I think you are saying (and please correct me if my interpretation is off) that the Decline/Accept person is in a position of power over the Approach/Suggest person, because the A/S has to put hirself out there which is really scary of course, and then zie has to await the hammer of judgement from D/A, who gets to enjoy the privileged position of having ALL the choice (and hence, ALL the power).
Now I’m not saying this is untrue but I am going to posit that it’s only one side of the story. Having grown up socialised female, I have a lot of romantic experience being in the D/A role, and my personal experience has not been to feel empowered – quite the opposite, in fact. In the minority of cases, the A/S has been a Grade A Bagge Of Dickes, and attempting to decline the advances of said jerkwad without provoking a confrontation that I will find terrifying is extremely stressful and unpleasant. In the overwhelming majority of cases, the A/S has been a lovely human being but I have just not felt that romantic spark between us, for reasons I may or may not understand, and thus I would prefer to be friends. The mentality that kicks in here is NOT, I wholeheartedly assure you, a sense of power or amusement or anything else that twinges a person’s Happy receptors. Rather, it is along the lines of, ‘Oh God this person is so lovely and I really wish this awkwardness wasn’t happening; if I say no then I will be hurting hir feelings and making hir feel unloveable and I will have crushed hir soul beneath my spiky boot like an irredeemable bitch of a human being, and that’s totally not the person I want to be. Maybe if I say yes then feelings for hir will grow over time? Or perhaps after a couple dates zie will lose interest? But I’d really rather just not but I don’t want to be a bitch and oh God zie is still looking at me waiting for an answer WHAT SHOULD I SAY WHAT SHOULD I DO?’
I think you’ve tried to argue here that D/A is in a position of power, and I’m certainly not trying to argue that you are wrong and the reverse is true – more that each role carries its own share of power and responsibility, but in different ways. And also, that it sucks mighty gonads for EVERYONE how the social structure railroads people into being one or the other based merely on their gender.
I think you’ve tried to argue here that D/A is in a position of power, and I’m certainly not trying to argue that you are wrong and the reverse is true – more that each role carries its own share of power and responsibility, but in different ways. And also, that it sucks mighty gonads for EVERYONE how the social structure railroads people into being one or the other based merely on their gender.
So much this.
Griffy Kate:
While it is true that all sorts conventions have power. Some have more than others. I agree that your role might leave you with some sense of responsibility to not just yourself but his feelings.
That is unfair to both parties.
But even if both parties have their ups and downs. I think men have very distinct disadvantage that might be more… serious(that might not be the word I’m looking for).
You can call that disadvantage a disadvantage in leverage. Women have more leverage in their character no matter what type of relationship that they looking for.
Basically you can be yourself in a larger degree than men.
I think this is because you, as the D/A, don’t have to be as conscious of how you are presenting yourself.
If you want to be crass: you as the customer just don’t need a sales pitch.
This is an enormous advantage for the woman in things like how calm or natural you can be in the moment to moment interaction, how much enjoyment you get from the interaction and other things.
Basically, for a lot of guys, this kind of interaction is like more of a job interview than a more egalitarian one, like making friends. With this in mind, I don’t think it’s odd that dating advice is mostly directed at men. And advice for how to act in a job interview doesn’t have a specific gender in mind.
This also gives the woman more power in shaping the rules of how and what the interaction should be like. Take the standard generalization, “men are, on average worse in nonverbal Communication because they don’t seem to be able to read her signals”. This I have heard and read everywhere, even feminist spaces. Nobody seems to want to unpack this assumption. Why is it the man’s job to read how the woman feels, and not the woman’s job to properly communicate her desires?
Another thing that hurts both genders but women more than men. Is how we view attraction. Basically, I don’t believe our attraction is set in stone. We can probably tweak this in more ways than we believe. This is what men have to do to maximize their chances.
There was a blog where the author gave the female readers a challenge: whenever they met a new guy they should make an effort to find positive traits about him. The result was that a lot of women self-reported that they found more and more guys attractive.
The problem is that if you are the passive one you will always wait till that “it” factor is presented in a mate instead of taking a more active role, and in some ways, a more responsible role.
This is the third time I try to respond to you Kate. Dunno what is happening.
I’d compare the power dynamic to the Employer/Applicant relationship, really. Where your D/A is the employer, and your A/S the applicant. Think of how an Employer might have to deal with Applicants who aren’t qualified, or who have nice resumes but don’t fit the job, or might be unstable and come back to shoot the place up. Clearly the Applicant has the real power in that relationship and the Employer is disadvantaged, right?
Scradrach:
I agree that the scenario you presented leaves the Employer dissadvantaged. There are some scenarious where the applicant have more power. The problem is that those are very few and very artificial. Another problem is that the power disadvantage is in the employers head. There are some rich people that feel guilty for being rich. This doesn’t mean that his privilege dissapears.
Another thing is who have the most power when it’s the boss and a full time employee? Because how the relationship starts always have a impact on how it is later on.
I think I failed at tone. That last line was meant sarcastically, on the assumption that no one would honestly consider the Applicant to be the one with the power advantage in an Employer/Applicant relationship, despite there being ways it could go “wrong”.
I’m saying that the standard dating script really is analogous to that relationship, and Kate’s suggestion that the D/A role doesn’t hold an outright power advantage is literally equivalent to saying that the Employer doesn’t have the power advantage in the way described (which were meant to be mostly analogous to her examples of not feeling empowered in the D/A role).
What I personally think makes it even worse is that in the dating script, the Employer can go out and be an Applicant too if they want with minimal risk and a decent shot of success, but an Applicant trying to be an Employer generally just fails.
I have been on hiring committees, and I have been on dates, and it’s really not the same thing at all in terms of power dynamics. Mostly because of what Kate says – women are STRONGLY socialized not to hurt people’s feelings, and so there is a quite unpleasant internal barrage of guilt and awkwardness when we have to bluntly reject someone.* I struggled throughout my twenties with just “spitting it out” straight up that I didn’t want to date someone. I would agonize for days! I realize that my beating around the bush was not good behavior on my part, but it was so hard to fight through that socialization of “women are responsible for making conversations pleasant and un-awkward all the time.” Rejecting people was definitely way more unpleasant for me than being rejected. So if you are picturing women taking some kind of sadistic pleasure in rejection, rest assured, it’s not true.
Whereas on a hiring committee, 1) it’s less personal (could legitimately be about “objective” reasons like skillset rather than just “I’m not attracted to him”) and 2) there are all kinds of formal shields and structures set up so things go according to a script. It’s far less stressful.
*Not to mention the small but terrifying minority of men who refuse to take a rejection and get violent/angry, or flood you with “but whhhhhhhhyyyyyyy noooooooot?” emails. It’s much rarer that this happens in a workplace, because there are far fewer job-applicants than date-applicants with raging cases of entitlement syndrome.
Erica:
Sure there is a different feel when you hire someone and when you want to date someone.
The power dynamics are similar. Even if it feels unpleasant to reject someone’s romantic advances, you are still the one to reject someone. The role both parties play in this scenario will change how the interaction is played out. There we have the problem. In a more egalitarian society, where both genders share in each other’s responsibilities, we wouldn’t have this problem. In a more egalitarian society romance happens. And it feels like it just happens for both parties.
As it is now the one to approach is more responsible for the interactions success or failure.
Just like in a job interview the applicant is the one with more responsibility because he or she will have to be the active one. This pressure will shape how natural the applicant feels in the interaction, how much he feels that he needs to try and how much of his self-worth he needs to west in the interaction. As the one with the power of rejection you are in a more neutral position. Even if that position can feel uncomfortable it is still the position that sets the standards. And that is such a huge advantage, and an unfair one to.
The problem still with the Nice Guy discourse is that this:
“If a man does it, we call it being a Nice Guy; if a woman does it, we call it normal.”
still applies to the second type as well. It seems one of the most common pet causes of online feminists to tell women that men have unreasonable or wrong expectations or demands of partners. In the mainstream such memes as “men are shallow” are omnipresent. It’s accepted knowledge that men’s demands hurt women and yet when men voice any dissatisfaction with women’s demands they must obviously feel entitled to sex, etc. I can see why the second type of Nice Guy is seen as bad, but when you focus on criticizing a behavior accepted in one gender and not in the other in the gender where it’s not accepted then you’re just gender policing.
I always found this to be the definitive example when it comes to nice guys and Nice Guys (TM):
http://divalion.livejournal.com/163615.html
From the link: “If you can’t be friends with a woman who’s turned you down, especially if you find yourself getting really angry about it, you have no business being in a relationship until you work out your issues.”
And this is the point where I disagree.
1) Nobody is entitled to my friendship.
2) A friendship between someone who has a massive crush and the unrequited party can be, in my experience, just as difficult as, say, between a boss and their subordinate, or between the lender and the borrower of a substantial amount of money.
And for the very same reason: “friendship” and “having a great deal of power over the other” is a recipe for disaster.
But at the same time: If you ask someone on a date, and she says, “Sorry, I’m busy,” that doesn’t mean she’s a horrible person.
It’s one thing to say “Person X wouldn’t go out with me, and I can’t have a platonic relationship with her.” It’s quite another for this to apply every single time, such that any friendship you try and fail to convert into a romantic relationship is automatically doomed to die then and there if she says one little “no.”
Hel, I’m close friends with some of my exes!
Notice that I wrote “difficult” not “impossible.” A big crush and the rejection thereof are awkward and highly emotional events in any friendship — quite possibly for both partners.
Some friendships break on such events, and that isn’t even necessarily someones “fault.”
My beef with divalion’s statement is the complete lack of qualifiers.
I agree that ending a friendship simply for being denied a romantic relationship is kinda dickish, but divalion unambiguously said that any guy (her statement is clearly gendered) who ends a friendship at any point after the confession/rejection has “issues” no matter what happened after that or how the woman behaved.
OT: I’m also friends with some of my exes, but I need some time after the breakup to “get over them”, i.e. to process my feelings. I couldn’t if my feelings were still fresh, like having an ongoing crush…
Isn’t dickish a sexist insult? I’m not so sure it’s really a “dickish” move though depending on how the other feels. If they’re headoverheels for someone and that person is dating another, the pain could be too great to really have a decent friendship. Not everyone handles their feelings the same as others. It’s also possible that the other wanted more and doesn’t want to settle for friendship, so it’s dating or bust. If you have hundreds of female friends and you’re trying to find a mate, do you really need another female friend?
They could also simply be a shit friend though usually people figure that out later and not at the point of rejection unless the rejection is an extremely harsh one, eg a girl calling a guy a creep n telling him he’s a loser for dating to ask her out is pretty much guaranteed to not be a future friend.
Isn’t dickish a sexist insult?
No apparently as long as it’s only male genitals being associated with something negative it’s okay. In order for it to be an insult, much less a sexist one, it would have to involved associating female genitals with something negative.
For example if a guy were to end a friendship for being a denied a romantic relationship then it’s okay to call him a dick. But if a guy were to keep his feelings hidden from the woman he’s interested in out of fear of rejection whatever you do don’t call him a pussy.
Now THAT would be a sexist insult.
No one is saying it means she is a horrible person, but it also doesn’t mean that I have to be friends with that woman. It is perfectly reasonable and well within my rights to say, “That’s fine you don’t want to go out on a date with me, but I have no interest in spending time with you if we’re not dating.” Men are very often attacked for holding this position. “If you can’t be friends with her, you’re a bad person, etc, etc, etc.” Why is it okay for women to reject men for any reason they want whether it makes sense or not, but it is not okay for men to say no to friendship with a woman for any reason they want?
Not only that, but I’ve actually seen nice guys encouraged to take this position of being clear that they want to be more than just friends – sometimes to avoid being friend zoned.
As is so often the case in these gender issue thingies, you’re damned if you do X, and damned if you don’t.
Of course no one can/should force you into friendship (it’s not really a friendship in that situation!) And in my opinion it is very healthy to step back from being around someone if your unrequited crush is too hard to deal with.
Where I have a problem is when the guy *pretends* to be interested in friendship but is really only interested in romance; or men who declare it is pointless or impossible to have any platonic friendship with a woman.
Yeah but if you have 100 female friends and you desire a romantic partner, you don’t need another friend. There can be a limit to how many friends you can want. The problem seems to be not indicating whether they want romance or friendship.
There is indeed a limit to the amount of friends you can have. I try to spend time with my friends, and I cannot have so many friends that I’m stretched so thin I can’t spend the proper amount of time with them. If I befriended every woman who rejected me and said “I like you as a friend” I would have 150+ additional female friends.
This is true. Hopefully, no one is complaining about when a man asks a woman out, she says no, and he moves on. The problem is when the man is too afraid to ask the woman out directly, so he pretends to want to be just friends in hopes of “transitioning” to romance later. She thinks he actually wants to be a friend and confides in him, etc. Then he FINALLY works up the courage to ask her out 10 months later and when she says no he storms out of the “friendship” in an injured huff.
Therefore, this strategy is both rude and quite ineffective.
I’m not that sure the Nice Guy strategy is that ineffective. I mean it is ineffective by definition. You don’t read Nice Guy stories like this: “We were friends at first, but he had a crush on me from the start. Later we started dating and this year we celebrate our seventh anniversary.” Nice Guy stories never have a happy ending, that’s a inherent part of the narrative.
Maybe, relationships which develop out of friendships are actually more stable. I’m speculating here but it’s not an outlandish claim. In this case befriending someone first before showing romantic interest is a good strategy for people who seek committed relationships. Though I would agree that it is a bad strategy for people who are mainly looking for a sexual relationship. Simply because it’s very time intensive..
This, so much. If all you want is to get laid, join Fetlife or a swinger’s club. Maybe go to a place like Las Vegas where prostitution is legal, if you can afford that.
You can get safe, consensual sex pretty easy in this day and age without having an actual relationship attached–if that’s what you’re looking for and deliberately set out to find. If you look for sex, specifically, then people who want to have casual sex or a FWB-type bond are pretty thick on the ground.
If you’re looking for a romantic relationship, then that means that you want, primarily, romance–with or without sex. Maybe a marriage. Maybe kids. But primarily, you’re going to get romance–sometimes nerdy romance. :3
For the record, prostitution isn’t legal in Las Vegas.
“You can get safe, consensual sex pretty easy in this day and age without having an actual relationship attached–if that’s what you’re looking for and deliberately set out to find.”
This is not true for everyone, and it certainly isn’t true for a huge percentage of men, myself included.
I think one of the elements of Nice Guys (TM), is they deliberately aim for ‘unattainable women’ without actually doing much to make themselves appealing. This is going to be a problem in every scenario.
I want a relationship but I’ve considered going to a brothel before however recent feminist articles have made me petrified about it as I’ve wondered if the workers are there of their own free will or not. I’m in Australia where it’s legal but not sure I could just ask her “Are you here of your own free will” and get an honest answer if it’s as seedy as some articles make it out to be.
I don’t think it’s easy for just anyone to get laid, especially in areas with no legalized prostitution or those without much money to pay for one, and even moreso with people with physical/visible disabilities/illness/obesity which may make them look far less attractive.
… Not sure how many of those are suitable for mainstream, vanillia guys…
You can see it already in kindergarten.
The good-looking guys who know how to break the rules get all the positive attention.
That’s because when you’re young, danger is very attractive. It’s why people with both guns and kids have to lock up their guns–small children WILL play with an unsecured firearm, even if you tell them beforehand “hey, this thing is dangerous and could kill somebody.”
I used to go after “dangerous” men myself–and then I grew up. Now, I’m dating a nice, reliable computer tech. There’s no dramatic “tough-guy” posturing, sure–but there’s none of the nastier form of drama either.
You grew up, or you opted out of the competition?
There’s nothing as I can see that these guys have a diminishing popularity as they grow up.
It’s just that more people in their “fan base” will start to look around for a second choise, as they realize the options are narrowing down.
I’ve seen that argument many times — “oh, sure, if that girl is willing to date a nice computer geek like me it MUST mean that she ‘s ugly, or if she’s not ugly now she’s getting old and ugly and she must have realized she can’t handle the competion” — really, that’s a terribly sad and demeaning attitude to have about both yourself and the woman who is actually willing to date a guy like you.
You still have to be careful. Many girls who do date good, stable, tech guys are not in it, in my experience, for attraction. I’ve been dated for reasons like, i was “Easy” (no effort needed on her part), no other girls like me (no competition), or the best, i was a placeholder boyfriend because the guy she liked was taken and i was comfortable. I did not see the signs of these reasons earlier but i now pay really good attention to how girls react on the first couple of dates I go on with them. I look at her job if it is a career or not. (shows she wont need my money and can stand on her own) Her dating past. (a quick change to stable relationship with me from a long series 1 nighters is questionable) And her physical intimacy balance between small shows of affection and sex. (one usually means “i don’t really want to sleep with you” and the other is a big red flag for various reasons)
These are the walls I built to not find myself hurt again and they seem to have worked as i am engaged to a wonderful woman now.
/anecdotal evidence to be wary but not dismissive
I’ve had guys date me because I was a placeholder, convenient, or they felt they couldn’t do any better at that moment.
What can I say, sometimes people just suck.
Everyone deserves someone who thinks they are completely awesome. If you are lucky enough to find that person, it’s a magical thing.
That’s terrible:( I don’t understand how people can do that. Are they so desperate to not be alone?
@Sarah:
I didn’t say anyone’s ugly.
To it makes perfect sense that someone who is not a very competitive personality, can get tired and opt out of competition even if s/he is currently in the “lead”.
I’m curious The_L what young men who are nice but shy and lonely are supposed to feel about this. I think young folks in general are going to make bad dating decisions. How should we feel though when we are essentially ignored by young women when we are young, but when you all mature, we become desirable? So, for a long time in our prime, we are ignored as you all chase after “bad boys” because you don’t know any better.
I know women in another thread were talking about not wanting to feel settled for, but that is how many legitimately nice guys feel. The women had fun with the bad boys when they were younger, but now they’re looking for something stable so they’ll settle for the nice, stable, good guy with the good job and career prospects. I know I feel awful that I’m 23 and I have spent so many of my prime years alone. I’m not getting any younger, and years of being invisible doesn’t make me feel good about myself.
I feel your pain Collin, I really do (having suffered from a lot of social awkwardness and rejection when I was younger). But please don’t think your prime years are over at 23! My God, your adult life is just starting to get going.
Oh, I realize that my adult life is just starting, but the joys and beauty of youth are already diminishing. I will never get to experience what it is like to have a girlfriend at a young age, the joys of youthful exploration and fun, etc. I have missed out on many years of fun and excitement that I will never have the opportunity to enjoy. That is definitely a source of bitterness.
I will never get to experience what it is like to have a girlfriend at a young age, the joys of youthful exploration and fun, etc. I have missed out on many years of fun and excitement that I will never have the opportunity to enjoy.
I know exactly what you are talking about here. I haven’t lived your exact circumstances but I have reached the exact same outcome.
For me it was not only a matter of missing out on years of fun and excitement but also a years of experiences and feelings.
When I explain these things people tend to react with something to the effect of, “But well that means you are in a position to understand what you really want and skip the nonsense.”
I think what those people may not get is that that nonsense is often a part of helping one understand what they really want. Which really hints to me that the people that give this advice are people who actually did manage to get in some youthful exploration. A case of the guy that “loved and lost” telling the guy that “never loved at all” that love’s not that big of a deal.
Those experiences help shape one’s tastes. Sure you could argue that by being older means you are a bit wiser and mature about these things but its not too often that theory can replace practice. Some things must be experienced in order to get a read on them.
And what can happen is that lack of experience can end up hurting you a lot more when it happens later in life.
For example (and Colling let me apologize in advance if this hits a sore spot with you, but please know it hits one with me as well) what do people think about a guy that is 20 and has never had a girlfriend/boyrfriend? What do people think about a guy that is 30 and has never had a girlfriend/boyfriend? 40? 50? Chances are for a lot of people their answer will change as the age goes up and it will probably change for the worse.
And don’t get me started on sex. Read all the text and sites you want and listen to every story your friends rack up. Those things can help you but they won’t hold a candle to actual sexual experience.
Oh well I’m off topic enough as it is. While it doesn’t help to dwell on the missing experiences it is perfectly sensible that a guy would dwell on it. Because people will hold it against him.
Now that being said, and this is the hard part, we can’t dwell on it.
You sound like you received the same “nice smart guy talk” I was privy to many a time early in my life. The, just keep being smart and nice and make lots of money and girls will like you, talk.
What age did you “grow up”? I noticed around 25ish peoples tastes seem to change?
A bad combination of bad advice and people not really knowing what they want. Inexperience probably plays a big role too – being able to know you can attract women can provide a big impetus to overcome this kind of pattern.
But while you’re in it? The bitterness is born of frustration. You do everything you think you’re supposed to do – even to the point of asking girls for advice – and you get vague things like “well, girls like nice guys” back. I reject this notion that it’s necessarily misogyny. People are often bitter when they get sold a crappy deal.
Bingo. I will admit that I am bitter about the fact that I’ve never had a girlfriend and women routinely ignore me and turn me down. I’m not getting any younger, and having spent all my prime without any attention or affection feels awful. No one likes to waste time, and no one feels good when you see everyone else experiencing something great, and you are not. You’re on the outside looking in, and you’re told “Oh, when women get older they’ll want to be with you.” No one wants to be told that they have to sit out on the cold and wait and that is the message that many many MANY good guys get when they’re young and being ignored. I don’t know how people expect men like myself to not have any negative feelings associated with it… like we’re supposed to be happy that we’re being ignored and should be thankful we’re at least getting to watch other people enjoy romantic relationships. I don’t get it.
Collin– Have you tried hanging out with a bunch of your guy friends from school (HS/college/alumni ass’n/gym whatever?)? Maybe some older guys could lead the way by example…just a thought….
I picked up Arnold S.’s autobiography (say what you will about him…it’s fascinating to me!)….his early life is all about finding male role models and listening and watching and mimicking the older guys around him….I’m not saying that anyone should try to work out in the gym for 5 hours a day….but it seemed like he worked on himself bit by bit and slowly gained confidence while working toward a goal…
It sounds like you need a “wing man”…
To be honest, my social circle is both very limited and very much older than I am. Most of my friends are in their mid 30′s at the earliest and my friends around my age are even worse than I am when it comes to socializing. I do need a more outgoing group of friends, and lots more friends around my own age, but they’re not easy to find. Because I’m so smart, I tend to get along really well with older, more successful people, but they’re always married so not exactly a sort of go to a bar and wingman situation.
Hudson Union Society does social mixers and talks with politicians/writers/celebrities for Ivy League grads (or that I.Q./education level) …it’s a mix of young and older people…you might want to check it out in order to expand your social milieu…just a thought…
Or Pong (I think that’s what it is called)…it’s a club created by Susan Sarandon that attracts fun young professional singles, who can hang out and socialize over ping pong (sounds silly…but could be worth a try!)…
It seems to me that way too much of the whole “Nice Guy” debate is just people, often women, trying to shout down, or otherwise shame into silence, guys complaining about what they(the guys) perceive as the unfairness of the dating process. ( and there is plenty of subjective, perceived unfairness on all sides).
If these guys are so completely detached from reality, why bother with this whole argument. Let them rant and just ignore them. But I think they do have every right to complain, regardless of validity of their complaints. The constant efforts to try and shout these guys down mystify me.
Reading the comments on this thread makes me so glad I started dating women. The sense of entitlement and curdled resentment against women is just repulsive.
You’re ignoring the fact that esentment often goes both ways. Men receive at least as much as they produce.
However, there is an element of entitlement, encouraged by society, that is not present when the genders are reverse.
I disagree. The entitlement is there regardless of gender, it just takes different forms. Example: I don’t ever expect a girl to buy me a drink at a bar, but I regularly run into women who expect me to buy them drinks, even if I’m not romantically interested in them. I could easily give other examples, but I think this is clear enough
Yup, I still see plenty of women that tell me men should be doing yardwork, earning more money, working fulltime, pay for dates because it’s “romantic”, etc
Apologies, probably didn’t make that clear. The entitlement I was focusing on was more the entitlement for sex rather than just broad entitlement. Cutlturally, men are encouraged to believe that if they just do ‘the right things’ for women, they are entitled sex.
@Skull Bearer: yes, that is generally true.
But the cultural narrative is also that a man who hears the “You’re a great guy… it’s me not you… let’s be friends.” talk has *botched* to do ‘the right things,’ and is therefore a loser.
To echo a sentence Griffy Kate wrote upthread: The mentality that kicks in after hearing that is NOT, I wholeheartedly assure you, a sense of entitlement or anything else that twinges a person’s Happy receptors.
I wonder how much of a role some movies, etc have to play a part. I grew up with movies that were basically saying if you like a woman to keep persisting and win her love, the guy that gets told he’s a friend a few times and a year later they fall in love. But as an adult I thought it was weird because if she’s saying no and you keep chasing her, wouldn’t it be harassment?
But then shit in romantic movies regularly looks like harassment to me, chasing people down to airports before they leave, calling out from the street, embarassing them with a public spectacle….if a woman did half the “romantic” stuff I’ve seen in movies n tv shows I’d be annoyed prob. Being as they’re movies they’re meant to be fictional n taken with a grain of salt, but I do wonder how much of an effect it can have especially as since I wasn’t taught any courtship rituals in school, I wasn’t told how to ask out a woman, how to get a date. In fact I think that information is so valuable it SHOULD be a subject at school as part of life skills, how to respectfully ask out a man/woman that you’d like to date and also how to handle rejection.
Could you imagine the benefits alone of having practice rejection classes in 9th grade and telling people that just because one rejected you, it doesn’t mean you’re ugly to everyone, or even ugly at all? I never got told that, never knew till in my adult years that she/he may just be so busy/have shit to deal with that they don’t want date. It seemed to be that many grew up in high-school seeing rejection as a sign they are ugly, and thus it becomes this big thing to be afraid of. Sure you can learn all this by fumbling through but I think some grow up without knowing it, and you get socially awkward people who may fuckup, get labelled a creep because they ask someone out at the wrong time, or linger too long, or stare n stutter, do an approach and get 1/4 way through it n freak out n leave.
I think it’s a shame that we learn Maths, English, Science, but not human interactions where its left to the playground to try learn how to ask people out….especially for those who cop a heap of bullying, those that shy away, those who are outcasted and get far less chance to learn. I’ve known quite a few people who could benefit from such a class, including myself.
And women are encouraged to believe that if they just display a somewhat sexual interest in a man, real or faked, she is entitled to his full intellectual, physical and financial attention…
There’s a huge sense of entitlement in many women too, at least here. The resentment I’ve seen many have of men is incredible and has made me quite turned off to those women in particular. I don’t think it’s a gender thing, but grows from frustrations in dating and not being aware of the complexity of human diversity. It ends up with people thinking men just want sex, women just want money and other harmful stereotypes.
I overheard a friend of mine chatting with one of her friends who is currently going through a divorce, and though the guy is pretty genuinely not a good person (alcoholic, ignores daughter, that sort of thing) their comments and criticisms started wandering:
“I don’y understand how you could be a man and NOT at least look for a job.”
“… Or be OK with your WIFE paying for HER OWN wedding ring.”
“If I were a man none of that would be ok, I would make everything work and get her what she deserved.”
I tread a fine line here Lily because , for you, dating women has removed a lot of societal BS from the equation. It just seems that sadly, your stories and experience can’t be generalized to every woman.
The comments on this thread have been interesting so far.
Here’s my take on why the whole “nice guy” phenomenon generates such heated debate.
I think what a lot of men resent when it comes to feminist discourse on nice guys is the presumption of female moral superiority.
For example, let’s say that a guy is genuinely nice, but gets consistently overlooked by various women, and in turn observes many women going for jerks. If he happens to express any kind of frustration over this phenomenon, then he’s either suffering from male entitlement, or he’s really an asshole/fake nice guy, because a true nice guy wouldn’t feel that he’s entitled to sex with hot women, would still respect women even if they don’t like him, blah blah blah.
Because women couldn’t possibly actually go for jerks, and they couldn’t possibly be inconsistent in terms of what they find attractive (ie. says she wants a nice, reliable guy, but then goes for some douchebag).
Since some feminists hint that women cannot be nearly as immoral as men, then any man who points out that many women do in fact go for jerks is either deluded or entitled.
(on another note, I would be very interested in seeing an analytical post dealing with whether or not the whole “women go for jerks” is true. In this case, I would be glad to be proven wrong)