Trigger warning for discussion of boundary violations, brief mention of rape.
I am having Thoughts on the term “creepy.” Previous thoughts on the term creepy that I stand by can be found here, if you’re interested.
My basic premises for this discussion are as follows:
1) If you’re creeped out by someone, LEAVE THE SITUATION as soon as you can. That is not the appropriate time to question the kyriarchal implications of blah-de-yada-yada; it’s the appropriate time to keep yourself safe.
2) “Creepy” is a valuable term to use to describe people of all genders who violate boundaries, objectify others, shoot up red flags, or otherwise behave in nasty or unpleasant ways.
3) Many of the people who are against the term “creepy” are themselves rather creepy, as they seem to be rather against the idea of people women having boundaries and being willing to assert them.
Given those three things, however… I do think that “creepiness” can also serve as a method of kyriarchal enforcement.
Think about it. I bet you could get a bunch of people to agree to the following
- Homeless people are creepy.
- Trans people are creepy.
- Men of color (especially on deserted streets in the middle of the night) are creepy.
- Mentally ill people are creepy.
- Crossdressers are creepy.
- Kinky people (especially sadists/doms) are creepy.
- The otaku who lives in his mom’s basement and collects miniatures is creepy.
Are all of these oppressed groups? Nope. Personally I’d classify crossdressers, kinky people, and otaku as “not oppressed,” but of course that’s drawing a bright red line through a whole lot of gray area. But all of these groups, regardless of how you classify them, are hit negatively in some way by kyriarchal narratives– for instance, the kinky person has to face a ton of sex-shaming, while the otaku has a ton of you’re-not-a-real-man ideas to contend with.
And one of the ways that the kyriarchy is manifested is by people considering them ‘creepy.’
I do think that male members of these groups are more likely to be considered creepy, because our culture thinks that (marginalized) men have more potential to threaten and hurt than marginalized women do. (Presumably, privileged men have an equal potential to cause harm, but they don’t because privileged men are clearly all saintly people who would never hurt a fly unless they deserved it for committing grave crimes like getting in the way of American oil interests.) Therefore, all things being held equal, a man of color will generally be considered more threatening and creepy by a white person than a woman of color will, and a male crossdresser will be considered more predatory and creepy than a female crossdresser will.
Why? Because men are considered to be capable of violence, and women usually aren’t. Because men are considered to have a predatory sexuality that goes about raping anyone who stays still long enough, and women usually aren’t. Because men are thought to have agency, under conditions of patriarchy, and women are not.
And I do think “that’s creepy” is a potent method of enforcing behavior. I mean, it’s horrible to be considered a potential boundary violator or even perpetrator of violence for a trait that you can’t change. For people who can hide who they are, such as kinky people or crossdressers, it serves as a reminder that they have to. For people who can’t, such as people of color or homeless people, it’s another reminder that your culture doesn’t entirely think of you as fully human.
The worst part is that it’s not even intentional. At least for me, “creepy” doesn’t come with reasons. My brain doesn’t say “you think Person X is creepy because they’re homeless” so I can separate it out from “you think that Person Y is creepy because they’re touching that person who looks obviously uncomfortable” or “you think that Person Z is creepy because body language.” Am I uncomfortable around Person X because they’re a crossdresser or because they’re actually being creepy? I don’t know.
Intuition is tremendously powerful and capable of synthesizing all kinds of information. Unfortunately, it’s also kind of stupid, because it works off heuristics and sometimes heuristics go wrong. Sometimes they go wrong in ways that are ultimately harmless– your brain distrusts Person Q, a perfectly harmless person, because they remind you of your abusive ex that you managed to escape just in time, which is unfortunate for Person Q, but of no significance in the long run. Sometimes they go wrong in ways that are really, really bad, particularly when they start feeding off cultural memes. Like “trans people are scary.” Or “men of color are scary.” Or… well, look at the list above.
In the moment, because you don’t know, it’s best to just trust your instincts. However, in the long run, one wants to strip one’s brain of all these nasty kyriarchal ideas. Although I have nothing beyond anecdotes to back this up and so it should be taken with all relevant grains of salt, I’ve noticed that the culturally creepy people that my brain doesn’t consider creepy are people that I have a strong positive association with. Trans people create great gender theory! Mentally ill people help you out when you’re mentally ill! Nerds are My Tribe! So possibly go off and befriend actual people of the demographic that freaks you out.
About ozyfrantz
*Gets popcorn*
*Hands you a soda, sits back*
* Opens a box of Jaffas, wishing Snifters were still available *
Where I come from “Jaffa” is an insult.
Absolutely, Positively understood
I have enjoyed this in-joke a great deal.
Most of the time I’ve heard women use the word “creep”, it has been about how that person looked. “He looks creepy”, usually a middle aged guy who is balding, might not dress perfect, usually said to guys who are not attractive.
“3) Many of the people who are against the term “creepy” are themselves rather creepy, as they seem to be rather against the idea of people women having boundaries and being willing to assert them.”
And many of them are people who see how the term is used to describe something quite different to boundaries, Creep shaming for instance. There is a difference between calling a boundary violation creepy, and using it on someone you think LOOKS creepy. It’s also used on people who have initiated a convo but don’t fit the woman’s standard of attraction, they’re called a creep for simply hittin on her. A simple sorry, I’m not interested is much better to use than jumping the gun n calling them a creep (and I mean men who haven’t had any other indication yet of no interest, not persistant men who are actually acting creepy). Another is when a person is older and simply talks to a younger woman, they can be called a creep for that.
Trust your instincts sure but don’t be an ass about it, there’s no reason to call someone a creep if they simply “look” like one. If they overstep your personal boundaries then go ahead, just direct it properly.
“looks creepy”, usually a middle aged guy who is balding, might not dress perfect, usually said to guys who are not attractive. ”
AND is hitting on the person who thinks he’s creepy, despite the obvious disinterest of the object of being hit on. The guy who is very willing to ignore the other person’s disinterest is ignoring boundaries. Ignoring boundaries is creepy.
“AND is hitting on the person who thinks he’s creepy, despite the obvious disinterest of the object of being hit on. The guy who is very willing to ignore the other person’s disinterest is ignoring boundaries. Ignoring boundaries is creepy.”
Sometimes, but not always. As others have said this happens to people who aren’t hitting on others, or even just the initial conversation, before the other person has said to go away or stated through body language they aren’t interested. I’ve heard women, hell even my mother, call someone creepy when the guy was 20 meters away doing his damn job, all he was doing was collecting shopping trolleys! That is so creepy…/sarcasm
The guy is creepy for existing, it’s a label thrown at times before any boundary crossing. That’s the point, it has legitimate uses but is also used to judge a person’s looks. Hell male pre school teachers get the label just for being male.
All well and good, but if you then tell your friends that Person Q was creepy without having any clear sense of why, you’ve likely done them harm. Assholery and violating boundaries are one thing, and in those cases it’s appropriate to spread the word, but where “red flags” are raised with no discernible reason (and reminding you of your ex doesn’t appear to be an actionable offense), to spread the label of “creep” seems to me quite reckless.
Why? Because men are considered to be capable of violence, and women usually aren’t. Because men are considered to have a predatory sexuality that goes about raping anyone who stays still long enough, and women usually aren’t. Because men are thought to have agency, under conditions of patriarchy, and women are not.
Leads to people jumping to DefCon 3 (or maybe even 2) simply because the person in question is male or appears to be male. As you say there are other characteristics that can alter the odds further (big, black, and male for the DefCon 1 Trifecta of Threat ) but simply being male causes the tension to run high from the get go with some folks.
As of last week’s continued research on how to not be threatening to people by merely existing I still haven’t found a way stop being big, turn change my skin tone to something “more acceptable” or turn off my maleness.
Just don’t get caught carrying Snifters !
*Skittles
Sometimes being a foot taller and significantly thicker and broader than everyone else really was an incredible hassle when I was at college. I developed a really terrible self image, not aided by reading the wrong authors and/or blogs, and ended up sort of shuffling along between classes with my head down, eyes averted away from people so that I might not offend anybody. It got to the point that I felt like hanging a sign from my neck, “I am neither a troll nor a giant: I will not grind your bones for bread.” I’m not sure that I was ever called a “creep,” or anything, but I called myself that a lot and I sure FELT like people were at least gearing up to call me that and it kind of scrambled my brains. I lost a lot of time that way, though I was lucky enough to have had a couple of really good friends who helped me get through it and have recovered at least somewhat from those really poisonous emotions. I sort of decided that even if there were people who would say that about me, for whatever reason, that concentrating on them wouldn’t do me any real good as compared to concentrating on the incredibly larger group of people who wouldn’t have a negative reaction to me. Yikes… this turned into a real novel, didn’t it?
I had the experience in highschool of making a few girls nervous because I was over 6foot and bulky, I never knew it at the time. Funnily enough I was probably more scared of them than they were of me.
I seen this before with big guys – I call it the “Teddy Bear Syndrome” you know when someone prefaces a conversation with “Ken, he looks like he could crush you with one blow, but he’s really just a big ole Teddy Bear” as if merely size alone qualifies someone as a threat.
Yep, I’ve had that term “teddy bear” told about me. *goes back to playing with his kitten*
“Creep” and “Creepy” aren’t useful words because they describe an emotional response, rather than behavior that triggered that response. Telling someone ” You’re a creep” isn’t useful, it gives that person no information with which to modify their undesieable behavior. Telling someone ” That guy’s creepy” is likewise useless, It’s a stronger way of saying “I don’t like that guy” without giving any information about WHY he’s considered a threat; it’s simply a call for ostracism based on emotion.
I’m fairly frustrated by the argument that the word “creep” is sometimes used against people who are perfectly innocent, thus we should stop using it (not that Ozy is saying that here, just that it seems to pop up a lot.)
All insults are used inappropriately sometimes. A guy called me an asshole for parking (legally, not blocking anything or taking up multiple spots) in front of his house the other day while I dropped off something for a friend. That doesn’t mean that I’m going to go out and start saying we need to ban the word in order to curb “asshole-shaming.” It just means that humans are humans and sometimes throw insults or labels at people who don’t deserve them.
And if you can think of a better word than “creep” for the guy who drove slowly alongside me for a block, leaning out the window and hissing “nice nice nice nice” as I biked to the grocery store on Saturday, I’d like to hear it. Because that was motherflippin’ creepy.
Exactly! I don’t understand how “creep,” specifically, does more harm than other insults when used inappropriately. It’s not like one instance of resembling someone’s abusive ex lands you on a National Registry of Creeps.
The one that does damage is the pedophile label, where mud sticks like superglue and can really mess up your life. Creep not so much. I think most people are trying to say creep is used wrongly at times and that people need to be careful how they use it, not just stop using it all together.
A surprising number of people (men) are calling for an end to the word. And a number of these selfsame individuals, however, have zero problem with words like “bitch” and “cunt”.
Well, I don’t like any of them.
I have a problem with “slut” and I don’t use it. I use the “cunt” word a lot however I live in Australia and it means something quite different here, a disparaging person with a gender neutral approach. Eg, if someone does a bad thing like cheat on his wife, he’s a “cunt”. I was shocked when an American told me it referred to a vagina, she actually used it to talk about her own! I try not to use bitch, I use the c word more or say asshole. Problem is if you’re around friends who use them a lot it can be hard not to let them slip out but I do try to keep mindful about it. Those same friends also use the creep word though as an insult to each other, dunno what it is about some men, they sure love insulting each other to bond.
I don’t mind the word creep when used to describe someone ACTING creepy, but I hate when people use it to describe someone that LOOKS creepy. I also hate when it’s used to describe people who simply try to hit on someone, without being told no. If they continue after being told no, then yes they are creepy but trying their luck the first time shouldn’t be creepy unless they were acting creepy before asking you out of course. Major age differences might bypass this though since that can creep people out.
Just use it appropriately and I have no issue with it, don’t creep-shame someone over their looks or for doing their initial approach (though it depends on their approach too I guess, being highly sexual would be creepy for many).
I like none of them, either. It is an annoying habit of many people (women and men) to fight against insults specific to their ingroup while using outgroup-specific insults with wild abandon, and is one of the most common hypocrisies in such discussions.
That said, I guess here will be one major spot to enjoy the popcorn …
I think you’ll find neither of those has the power to send a woman to jail. Have you heard of erasure by flase equivalence?
Oh, I agree! I just remember seeing another thread where multiple people were arguing that creep should never, ever be used.
How about harasser?
Trigger warning for thoroughly offensive language.
There’s fairly extensive feminist literature on the problems of “bitch” and “cunt”. Would you apply that argument to those words? How about “hysteria”? Or even the entitled “I mean ‘nigger’ in the way Chris Rock does” stupidity?
@Mayfly
I 100% agree with you. I think if used inappropriately–like other insults–it wrong. Often times people use “creepy” to refer to things they think are unusual. But that’s hardly the case when I hear and use it. The creep IS that guy who droves slowely. That “creeper” is that creepy ass person who lurks in a corner watching someone dance. There are lots of ways that “creep” can be used appropriately. And it is behaviorial. Someone is a creep beause they’re being hella creepy–lurking, gazing on an uncomfortable victim, following. That’s creepy and I think it’s ok.
When I was younger (17ish), I discovered there was alot of creepy guys out there, who seemingly have a thing for podgey men with goatees in rock themed nightclubs. There attention was not just unwanted (being CIS HET), but turning them down might go badly (something learnt from Mildly Threatening Dude). These guys had all the marks of being creepy.
But then I got a little older and hopefully a little wiser. Actually, apart from one guy, they weren’t creepy, and took rejection like a pro. Infact, I was just finding it creepy. Finding a situation creepy does not a creep make, but this seems to be a big sticking point.
Cliff PervoPervocracy makes this point (Source: http://pervocracy.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/how-to-not-be-creepy.html):
“someone who is creepy is someone who makes you feel unsafe and uncomfortable in a sexual way. And while you may be unfair in your discomfort–for example, if you feel uncomfortable around anyone who admits they’re into BDSM–it’s still real.”
So gay guys are creepy because they are hitting on me and Im not gay. No. The fact Im creeped out is real. Thats all mine, I own that. But until he starts invading boundaries, being suggest in ways I’ve explained I don’t like or just mildly stalking me all night, he is not a creep.
Very well stated!
You prefer content notes?
Even if the behaviour that is considered “creepy” can be clearly identified, the term tends to not be useful because it’s not definitive enough. Often times the term is down played. Because he’s “just a creep” (often associated with excuses, such as “he’s from a different culture so his behaviour is different which might seem creepy”). He’s not “harassing” someone, he didn’t “sexually harass/assault”, he’s just a creep (in this case, he consistently messaged someone despite her clearly asking him not to as well as kissed her without any indication from her that she was interested). But because we simply label him as “creepy”, he is not considered a direct threat. The term is not useful to clarify a situation.
When I was living in a dorm, there were two guys that indicated interest in me. Neither were neurotypical. Both had issues in social situations, could not accurately read body language, and engaged in some odd behavior. One guy I had just met, the other I had known for quite some time, since we went to the same Vocational school before college. The one who was new to me, in the beginning of the year, would make women feel uncomfortable by staring at them for long amounts of time or he’d try to put his arm around them. However, once he was talked to and he realized he was engaging in inappropriate behavior, he quickly stopped. While he still had some odd behavior (he’d walk around the lobby at night sucking on a corncob pipe that had nothing in it) he eventually became a well liked person. He was harmless, and most people knew that.
The other guy, however, made me and many other women feel greatly uncomfortable. He would stare at me or other women for extended periods of time. He would poke me any time he saw me, regardless of how I felt about it. He asked me out several times, each time I made it clear I was not interested. He tried to get me to play truth or dare with him. He told me he’d give me the heimlich maneuver when he saw me eating and laughing with my friends in the cafeteria. He was talked to on several occasions. I even had him sit down with me and my guidance counselor in high school and explained to him why he needed to stop. He never learned. He never made an effort to stop his inappropriate behavior, despite being talked to several times. I grew to feel increasingly unsafe around him, until eventually I got a no contact order against him. He finally left me alone after that. He posed a threat to me, and I labeled him creepy as a result.
Both guys had engaged in inappropriate behavior and violated others’ boundaries. Both were not neurotypical. One stopped their inappropriate behavior and became popular and had many friends, the other continued to make others feel unsafe. One was harmless, the other was creepy.
While some people do throw around the word creepy and use it against someone they deem simply different, to me, in most cases, it can really clarify the situation.
My point is basically that it’s not “ew this person makes me feel uncomfortable therefore they’re a threat and creepy” it’s more like “this person isn’t taking no for an answer and that makes them a threat and creepy”. At least that’s what I thought the definition of a creep was. Someone who didn’t take no for an answer. I’ve been in many situations where someone made me feel uncomfortable, but when I expressed that they stopped. They weren’t creeps, just maybe a bit socially awkward (such as in a case I described above). Which is fine, everyone does do something stupid or makes others uncomfortable every once in a while. I certainly have. But the creep isn’t socially awkward, the creep is the one that either ignores or reacts in a hostile manner to someone’s disinterest or “no”.
Hi, I’m pwlsax and I am a creep. (Y’all: Hi pwlsax!) *
I got this way thru problems with social cues and an overactive fantasy live. An unrequited 1st love thing at age 16 turned me into a drama king thru high school, even as a taste for really cool music evolved me into a budding jazz musician.
I had a desk job after college that killed my ambition for status, and another unhealthy love affair at that same time. Meanwhile I built a great jazz collection and self-taught on several instruments.
Today I live with and help my elderly parents, who are generous to a fault and understand me (mostly). You would probably never know I’m a creep if you didn’t know this, unless you looked into my background and found a very sketchy love and work life. Because I’m a GOOD creep. A funny smart non-threatening easy-going kind of creep, who’s clean and presentable and well spoken and even projects an air of self confidence.
But I’m still a creep. I own my creepitude and try to keep others from having to deal with it. The cost, besides a sketchy love and work life, is that I have few friends and no close ones (altho I used to).
And that’s the quiet life of a creep. Thanks for your time.
*Is there a 12 step program for creeps?
Let’s all listen to Radiohead’s “Creep”.
Interestingly, people forget that there was also a song by the same name by TLC.
The TLC song “Creep” was about “creeping around” as in cheating – not about creepy people.
well, considering that Left Eye actually burned down her boyfriend’s house, I’d say both meanings apply.
OT, but as a huge fan of the late Lisa “Left-Eye” Lopes, I have to step in. It was so frustrating to see her mocked and labelled a crazy girlfriend because of that incident. She and her finacee had a tumultuous relationship and the 105-pound artist was often seen in public all bruised up by her physically abusive football player boyfriend (in fact when she was arrested, she had a HUGE mark on her mouth from the preceeding incident). What happened that day was that she was angry at him and decided to burn his shoes in the bathtub when the fire grew out of control; it was an accident. Not that it was okay, but she did not try to burn down his mansion – she drunkenly tried to burn up his shoes, according to her in her drunken state to punish him, not long after he pulled her into a bedroom and pounded on her (yes, I’m sure she got some hits in too).
Also, Left-Eye did not even write ‘Creep.’
“Creep” is the middle-aged married HS SS teacher, who is a family friend and tries to ask you to go with him alone on a “special tour” of some local ethnic neighborhood….and I had to politely turn him down by saying some lame excuse (EWWW!!)…
“CreeP” is the even older balding hunched over pre-professional advisor at my Seven Sister college who touched my leg when I had to meet with him to go over my file prior to applying to grad school…YECCCHHH!! (I never reported him until recently…and he is long dead and gone I’m sure!)
I realize these are particular examples from your past, but I wonder if these men would have been “creepy” if you had found them attractive. The reason I ask is because of the very pronounced negative descriptions of these men, such as “balding hunched over” which isn’t really relevant to their behavior. I think this is what frustrates men about the label “creep.” When applied to behavior that clearly crosses boundaries – as in the cases you describe – it seems appropriate. When what makes the behavior “creepy” is the attractiveness of the person exhibiting the behavior, then it’s somewhat cruel.
That time I took your parking spot? Sorry, that was an asshole move, I was running late and stressed out, I apologize. Can I make it up to you by buying you coffee?
But how do you apologize for being creepy? You can’t, because it’s not really a description of a particular thing you did. The reason is that ‘creep’, as with ‘slut’, is a social label that describes a person’s nature, not an action. And when used in social circles, it has a way of ostracizing someone from the group. We tell our friends about that creepy guy, so they can avoid him, and it has somewhat more lasting consequences when misapplied.
Nick, you have one of the best comments here. High 5
Unfortunately, someone’s behavior might come across worse if they are unattractive. But I think both of those situations are inappropriate.
I’m female, and I had a female professor who creeped me out because she would always sit too close to me and do things like come up behind me and put her arm around me without warning. She wasn’t especially attractive or unattractive, and I didn’t take it as her being sexual or flirtatious, but I still felt like she kept getting into my personal space and it was creepy because if I moved away from her or even put my backpack between our chairs so her knees wouldn’t be touching mine, she’d move my backpack out of the way or keep touching me.
I have been creeped out by objectively good looking men. Granted, the examples I can think of are all from when I was in my 20′s, and I was hit on by an older and/or married guy. Like, for example, when I was 21, the guy next to me on the plane asked me for my phone number AFTER he just spent the previous hour talking about his family and showing me pictures of his kids. He was probably about 45, pretty good looking as I recall. But my reaction was “ewwww creepy.” In retrospect he may have thought I was flirting with him, because I was being chatty, but honestly I had just been thinking that he was nice and had cute kids and he kind of reminded me of my dad. So, seriously creeped out moment there.
I think “creepy” does often connote “awkward sexual advance from a guy I feel no attraction toward.” but that doesn’t necessarily mean a bad looking or socially unsuccessful guy. It is a guy who has misread interpersonal cues or misread the social context, like the older married guy who really honestly thought I’d be interested in helping him cheat on the beautiful wife and family he’d just shown me pictures of. It’s the strange guy who approaches me out of the blue and won’t stop talking to me even when I’m doing everything I can to indicate that I am busy, bored or not interested in talking to him, short of saying “go away.” It’s the guy at the social event who is blatantly hitting on me, including sitting way too close and repeatedly touching my leg,right in front of his wife and my boyfriend, to the point that I am forced to get up and excuse myself (that actually happened to me recently!)
‘I realize these are particular examples from your past, but I wonder if these men would have been “creepy” if you had found them attractive. ”
If she had found them attractive then the situation where they kept bothering her after she told them to leave her alone *wouldn’t have happened*. The opportunity to be a creep wouldn’t have arisen, at least not right away.
This happens more often to less conventionally attractive men, probably, and that’s unfortunate. But being conventionally unattractive is not enough; you’ve intentionally elided the behavior portion.
The creeps she described made inappropriate approaches. “tries to ask you to go with him alone on a “special tour” of some local ethnic neighborhood…touched my leg when I had to meet with him to go over my file prior to applying to grad school.” And while I ‘m sure you can come up with some totally innocent explanation for those two, the odds are with the creep explanation. As has often been pointed out, if a woman does *not* listen to her gut and is later assaulted, everyone will wonder why she was so stupid and blame her for “leading him on.”
And please note that even great looking guys can be creeps and sexual predators and rapists. Ted Bundy was a good looking guy. And a supercreep.
@Nick: The men looked actually benign to me before their behavior was categorized as creepy…
Please note the boundary violation: The friend of my mother, who is married and has 2 grown kids, should not be asking to spend alone time with me (I was a teenager then)…EWWW!!! [I'm sure it would have turned into "Uncle Pervie" time!]
Please note that when a student attends an expensive Seven Sister College and meets with their pre-professional advisor it’s supposed to be about discussing one’s grades, standardized test scores, and application strategies…not about some dirty old guy trying to get a feel of a 20 yo girl’s leg….that’s an abuse of power…if I had told someone then, I think it would have erupted into a huge scandal [one of my science teachers (female) was fighting for tenure with him (he was one of the department heads)...and it may have been his way of reasserting his power over women]….
Please imagine if this was happening to your teenage daughter….What would you think?
So you’re saying their creepy behavior is what highlighted the negative aspects of their appearance in your mind? I can understand that. The problem (and perhaps this is more sample bias than anything – I used to be a teacher, and much of my observation was of high school girls using the term) is that I’ve seen the term used more to describe awkward, not-conventionally-attractive guys than guys whose behavior crossed boundaries. I’ve also seen the term used when a girl is put off by said boys showing “unwanted” attention. I use scare quotes there because it’s it appears to be used both for someone who makes an initial approach as well as to one who doesn’t take ‘no’ for an answer. Indeed, I’ve also heard the term used about mentally challenged people, people with physical handicaps, and others. They’re all “creepers” because they’re not neurotypical or they’re unattractive (and had the nerve to approach you!) or they’re somehow different or you just get a funny vibe. It’s not always a label about behavior; it’s sometimes a label just for making in-group/out-group distinctions. It’s in this latter sense, when it’s an insult tossed off casually, that I think it’s most harmful.
I thought I did:
When applied to behavior that clearly crosses boundaries – as in the cases you describe – it seems appropriate.
You are assuming that every woman should be available to be hit on at all times. Even an initial approach can be creepy if it is in a situation where the woman is clearly not seeking connections with people. This is where it gets a bit tricky in terms of reading social cues, but I still don’t think that is an excuse for men to get angry when they are slapped with the creep label. Some women may be ok with getting hit on at the grocery store. Some women aren’t. An individual women may be ok with it some times, and not at others. Most often, it is clear in her behavior. If she is rushing through the store and looking impatient, she would probably not appreciate being hit on. However, when she does and reacts negatively, all too often she receives the ‘I was just trying to talk to you, I wasn’t hitting on you’ reaction. A male aggressors intentions do not matter at all. Even if he wasn’t hitting on the woman (rare, but occasionally true), he is still demanding her time. That is what is creepy. Women do not owe men, or any random strangers, their time, whether said stranger’s intentions are romantic or not.
Like I said, it is a little unfair when people not neurotypical fail to read cues, but there are many neurotypical people who exploit any hesitancy on the part of the receiver of the attention, because of the fear to label harmless, if not neurotypical people as creeps. They use that to their advantage to make women uncomfortable. It is unfortunate that many non-neurotypical people get caught up in that, but that is not the target woman’s responsibility. That ‘funny vibe’ is the woman’s warning signs going off; alerting her that she is not safe, sometimes for reasons she can’t articulate. Women have to prioritize their own safety over someone else’s feelings.
So is it acceptable then for the women to call the guy a creep, asshole, whatever because he dared to hit on her in a supermarket? Is it really that big of a deal to say “Sorry, not interested” as the first thing instead of skipping straight to calling them a creep? Because if he’s being polite in his “hitting on” and she skips straight to highly derogatory accusations then she’s being pretty damn rude. If someone talks to me and I feel creeped out, threatened, I’m not going to call them a creep, what good does it do? If they don’t get the message when I say “sorry, not interested” THEN have at it, call em a creep.
Otherwise that’s just the making for a pretty unpolite society. Like it or not but people need to interact in society, seek new friends, seek partners, and having the FIRST contact be treated in such a rude manner is something I find to be sad. I think people have a responsibility to at least try act polite. Unless she’s pretty much got a sign around her neck saying DON’T TALK TO ME it’s not going to be easy in every case to know she isn’t interested in talking hence the need for someone to try talk to her to see if she’s open to it. Reading a book, listening to music etc are pretty good signs a person is busy and isn’t interested but there are many situations where there could be no indicator of someone being uninterested in meeting new people.
“Women have to prioritize their own safety over someone else’s feelings.”
Then calling someone a creep straight away without at least trying a polite “not interested” method will put her at more risk, antagonizing and insulting another person is a great way to get punched if you’re unlucky enough to meet the wrong person, especially when alcohol is brought into the mix. The world has enough negativity without needing to sling the creep label around willy nilly, save it for the creeps who don’t take polite let down’s nicely.
Did you pay attention to what the post said? These are times when the woman is clearly not seeking connections with people. It’s okay for a man to ignore that and force a woman to be part of his pick-up tactics yet somehow it is “impolite” (sounds awfully like gender tropes) for the woman to conclude such behavior is an over-stepping of boundaries?
The poster is also correct about the hostile, negative reaction from the man once a woman makes it clear she isn’t interested.
Also, with all the talk by critics about being mindful of non-NT and awkward men, it never fails to bemuse me that seldom (if ever) do the same critics consider that the women being forced into these situations may also be non-NT and/or awkward as well.
And did you pay attention to what I was saying? Yes it’s impolite for him to hit on her when she doesn’t want it, BUT how is that indicated? Not every case will have a clear sign that she isn’t interested, and in our society a lot of successful pairings happen from this random hitting on, a lot of friendships start from such activities. So not all women will want to be hit on but some are ok with it, so what happens now? Everyone stops hitting on others? Or they take a chance and find out if that woman is open to a conversation or more?
YES it’s ok for people to talk to others in public, as long as it’s polite. YES it’s also ok for people to say sorry, not interested if they don’t want to talk. You’re in public, it’s a neccessity to have some interaction at times otherwise how the hell does the society interact? Not everyone can read body language and unless she is making it extremely clear that she doesn’t want people to hit on her, talk to her, then she can’t blame the other person FULLY for simply saying hello n striking up a conversation when they can’t read the body language or subtle hints she isn’t interested. A simple “sorry, not interested” is clear, direct, why is it not used instead of calling them a creep?
What right does she have to be rude and highly insulting because someone tried to hit n them? Neither has the right to act rude is what I am saying. If he is overstepping the boundary because she didn’t want to talk then WHY go straight to the rude response? That is what I am asking, I want to know why she feels it’s a decent response? If he acts rude after a “sorry, not interested” then blast him for it, I totally support people laying down the boundaries but body language is not enough to establish boundaries. It’s too vague in many cases and too many people misinterpret it, direct spoken language however can communicate her boundaries far more effectively. My entire argument is based on the fact that what she make think is a clear signal, others may not.
What about the women who’s body language is saying they’re open to talk to but then when the guy tries to hit on her he’s called a creep? Is she at fault for sending the wrong signals? Advocating for women to call men creeps straight away is a great way to make a very unpolite society, make it even harder for men (and women) to hit on people and lead to more problems with the anti-social society.
Imagine saying hello to someone and they’re cranky n say “fuck you” because you didn’t see they were cranky n didn’t want to talk, that sound like a great society? If you said hi, they said not interested, and you continued on then yeah you deserve a “fuck you” but if you didn’t get the message that they aren’t interested in talking, I find it hard to fault you 100% for it. Both are at fault for failing to communicate and failing to read the body language (which can be hard to read for many people).
It’s not impolite for her to conclude it’s stepping over her boundaries, it’s impolite to go straight to the creep label when there is a very high possibility that her boundaries have NOT been communicated to him. Does that make sense? What right do I have to get shitty with someone because I failed at communicating my boundaries? Part of communication requires THE OTHER person to understand the language, whether it be spoken or body language, eg if I speak english and they only speak french then I can hardly be annoyed that they’ve tried to talk to me when I’m telling them my boundary in the wrong language, or especially if I don’t say anything.
It’s a shitty situation but the problem is all about communication, boundaries need to be communicated because there is no universal rule of a woman wanting to be left alone. It’s easy to understand not to touch someone without asking, but talking to someone without asking? How is that possible. If he starts his “tactics”, there is plenty of time to shoot him down, but he’s hardly a creep in some cases where the boundaries are not communicated effectively. To be a creep he needs to know the boundary exists AND THEN pass it.
You’re ignoring much of what the author says and responding to that which s/he doesn’t. Nowhere does the poster suggest launching into verbal beat down against some well-meaning man, and s/he touches upon the common defensive if not hostile reaction to politely turning a man down (which you ignore). Off-hand I remember three instances of just that. And guess what, I’m socially awkward and I have an anxiety disorder.
The ‘grocery store’ sign should be indication enough that one is taking a chance that there exist any secondary motives and uses of time for somebody buying groceries. On top of that, to reiterate, drop the assumption that, by virtue of “being there,” women are available to be hit on and that the man’s wants and needs are more important than her’s. That is what you’re doing; do you know how I know that? Because so far, the only thing that seems to matter to you are that a) a man wants to pick up a woman, b) there may be (male) non-NT’s that cannot read social cues, or men that read signals that may or may not be there c) the woman’s obligation is to properly communicate her disinterest, and d) preemptively striking down any real or imagined acceptance of mean-reacting women is necessary. All that even though the man is acting on *his* desire to pick up a strange woman as she sees to her costly (both time and money-wise) obligations, the onus is on her, according to you, to protect *his* feelings and jump through hoops to ensure the method of communication is property tailored to suit *his* needs. You seem to want to give (at least men) a pass to be completely selfish and behave in a creepy manner, and then demand women modify their behavior around it to protect them from that label.
I have no problem with calling someone creepy if they actually disrespect someone’s boundaries. I have every problem with it when it’s used to describe someone (of either gender) who lacks poor social skills, needs a shower, wears glasses or asks someone “out of their league” on a date. I’ve seen people being shamed for doing perfectly normal things for the above reasons and it sucks.
Another nitpick: Personally I’d classify crossdressers, kinky people, and otaku as “not oppressed,” I know one woman who was outed as a prodomme by a rag newspaper. Her husband lost his job, they lost her house, they had to take her kid out of school due to bullying and eventually they all had to move town because of the general harassment they were getting from strangers in care. I also know quite a few kinky professionals live in fear of having their secret outed and loosing their jobs. People in healthcare or childcare professions are particularly vulnerable.
While it’s alot easier for a kinky person to stay in the closet than an LGBT person, the consequences of being outed aren’t all that different to what LGBT people faced prior the gay rights movement. So, yeah, opressed isn’t all that bad a word.
Okay, I have a question that is barely related: is it bad form to complement someone on their tattoos if they’re visible? (obviously not on the chest ior lower back, but on a bare arm or leg?)
My two cents on the relationship between “creepiness” and boundaries: I feel like the “creepy” label is usually applied to a person whose (hypothetical) boundary violations one would mind far more than the objectively equal boundary violations by a non-creepy person.
Non-creepy person sits down next to you in the bus so that zir thigh is somewhat pressed against your thigh? Well, these busses do get crowded at these times of day. Creepy person sits down next you and zir thigh touches yours a little? Damn, why are these seats so narrow???
I doubt “creepiness” correlates with the objective amount or severity of boundary violations a person commits per day, but rather the (possibly only imagined) response one would have to that person being physically close to one.
@mayfly,
The difference between “creep” and other insults is that creep is both gender-biased in real life usage, and explicitly about someone’s sexual nature, which makes it on the whole as gendered as the female-specific insults that you’d have a problem with. (By comparison, “asshole” is also gender-biased in real life usage, but it refers to non-sexual behavior and I wouldn’t consider it a gendered insult.)
In other words, would you make the same argument for the word “bitch”? Because that’s the apt comparison, not “asshole”. (Basically what L said, except that she was unaware that she was committing the same hypocrisy in reverse.) That it’s going to be misused but as long we use it appropriately to people who deserve it, etc.?
Creep is not a gender-biased term, it’s a word used (most commonly) to denote behavior that violates boundaries and makes people uncomfortable in a sexual way. I’ve used it to describe both men and women- for example, I had a female high-school substitute teacher who was very touchy-feely with female students and who was commonly described as creepy by everyone at my school. For whatever reason men (in my experience) tend to be a lot more likely to act way, but that’s not a problem with the word “creep,” it’s a problem with the way men are socialized to push boundaries.
If creep is not gender-biased despite nearly everyone applying it disproportionately (I’d say overwhelmingly so, but we don’t need to get into the minutiae of semantics) toward men,
Can you think of an epithet that you’d consider not gender-biased despite nearly everyone applying it disproportionately toward women? Come on, try. Bonus points if, like “creep”, it denigrates a woman’s sexuality or sexual behavior in some way.
I highly doubt it. Because if any word did that, the fact that I can think of the occasional gender-flipped example or that the word isn’t inherently gendered in terms of root etymology or whatever, would not considered anywhere near valid an excuse as you seem to accept here. Because any such word you’d see as “unjustified”, because you don’t actually think there’s any negative behavior women do more than men – whether it’s ultimately society’s fault because they’re *socialized* into it, or not – while you think there are many that men do more than women. “Creepiness” among them. If you believe that, how does that not equate to believing that women are simply morally better? I really don’t believe that. I think we’re equal, and that men aren’t better or worse than women and women aren’t better or worse than men.
By “you”, I’m referring more to anyone here who would’ve said what mayfly said, or who read what she wrote and agreed wholeheartedly. I’m posing the questions above to all of you. If you think my assumptions are off-base, prove it by giving me that equivalent female-slanted epithet that you find acceptable. I bet the silence will be deafening. Perhaps you can see a male perspective a bit better now, and why we’re not giving our hearts out to a group of people who are not us, who don’t have the same experiences as us, deciding amongst themselves what amount of collateral damage is acceptable to the sexuality of those who are like us. When do we get to do the reverse?
There a reason why my earlier response wasn’t allowed to go through? I’ll re-post a stub of it:
If creep is not gender-biased despite nearly everyone applying it disproportionately (I’d say overwhelmingly so, but we don’t need to get into the minutiae of semantics) toward men,
Can you think of an epithet that you’d consider not gender-biased despite nearly everyone applying it disproportionately toward women? Come on, try. Bonus points if, like “creep”, it denigrates a woman’s sexuality or sexual behavior in some way.
You know, I don’t have a problem with anyone using the word “creep”, or really any other specific word. I have an issue with individuals projecting extreme bias on others with the intent of making an unfounded or under-researched conclusion.
Really, words come and go but behaviors remain. Sometimes we focus, rightly, on the symptoms (language and cultural, personal presentation for examples) at the expense of the behaviors and internalized socialized concepts which act to create the symptomatic language.
It isn’t about the word “creep”, it’s about the way in which we interact with others. One can be guilty of all the negatives associated with employing “creep” as an unfair weapon without ever uttering the word.
Okay, 42 comments and no one has mentioned how problematic it is when creepers explode and destroy your hard made house? Or when they come up behind you and kill you after you just got a bunch of diamonds? Sheesh. (Although they do drop gunpowder.)
(Minecraft reference for those not in the know.)
THIS IS WHAT THE REFRANCE
I don’t think any of us would have a particularly hard time thinking up people or actions labeled “creepy” that violate no boundaries and are non threatening, nor people or actions that *do* violate boundaries and are threatening that nonetheless rarely if ever get labeled as “creepy.” Given that the weak correlation runs in both directions, I have a hard time accepting this “creepy = boundary violations.” It feels like a rationalization after the fact to me. Doubly so because I’ve only ever heard that definition amongst the feminist community that felt a need to come up with it lest their use of the word be seen as hypocritical.
To understand the word we must look for the strong correlation. In my opinion, the strong correlation is with “things that make me feel uncomfortable” because they’re “off,” especially in, but not limited to, a sexual context. What then is “off?” Well off is different. It’s anything that isn’t the way it’s supposed to be, as we define it. Of course we define it based on a thoroughly self-centric concept of culture, propriety, manners, etiquette, etc.
“I think he’s ugly, therefore he should think he is ugly as well and he should know I would never want him, thus his approaching me does not make sense. Creepy.”
“Asking me if I want to have sex, despite being a textbook example of explicit consent, is not how my culture dictates the courtship ritual should go. His ignoring the accepted ritual does not make sense. Creepy.”
“That child with progeria does not look the way a child should look. Creepy.”
I would contend that far from being a word used by the marginalized in an effort to protect oneself, it is a word used by the decidedly not-marginalized to enforce certain behavioral standards and shame those who violate them.
To add to the author’s piece, one group of people I have heard referred to as “creepy” frequently are those who have speech impediments, especially adult men. A lot of people, but not all, go through speech therapy throughout K-12 in order to correct “speech abnormalities”, but not all parents think that it is necessary. The idea being that, as long as their child is easily understood when conversing, then there is nothing disabling or abnormal about the child’s mode of speech.
Several gents I have met over the years have been turned away and regarded as “creepy” because of speech abnormalities that either have gone completely untreated or were so dense that speech therapy alone could not completely eliminate. But what in the world is so creepy about pronouncing the “R” sound as more of an “oh”, or speaking with a lisp? Even people with mild stutters face a lot of negativity for their speech difficulties. These were smart, friendly, fun fellows who were turned down for an incredibly superficial trait. I will note that, in this context, it was primarily hetero women who were turning down these guy-friends/acquaintances. I have also heard my gay guy-friends criticize other guys for their speech impediments, but it never seemed to be a deal-breaker.
It isn’t just in the dating world either. During voice chats for squad-based online games such as WoW, LoL, and DotA, I have found that people who speak with speech impediments get left out of subsequent groupings because they are regarded as “weird”, which is just a less potent way of saying “creepy”. In that arena, which is usually (but not always) male dominated, guys seemed to be very judgmental about speech abnormalities, even if the person is completely understandable, speaks with a clear and assertive tone, and is respectful of all other team members. I would also like to note that I have not voice chatted with nearly as many women as I have men in this scenario, so I can offer no valuable information about female judgment of speech impediments in this context .
So what’s the deal? Why are people so weirded out by speech speech abnormalities?