Trigger warning for discussion of boundary violations, brief mention of rape.
I am having Thoughts on the term “creepy.” Previous thoughts on the term creepy that I stand by can be found here, if you’re interested.
My basic premises for this discussion are as follows:
1) If you’re creeped out by someone, LEAVE THE SITUATION as soon as you can. That is not the appropriate time to question the kyriarchal implications of blah-de-yada-yada; it’s the appropriate time to keep yourself safe.
2) “Creepy” is a valuable term to use to describe people of all genders who violate boundaries, objectify others, shoot up red flags, or otherwise behave in nasty or unpleasant ways.
3) Many of the people who are against the term “creepy” are themselves rather creepy, as they seem to be rather against the idea of people women having boundaries and being willing to assert them.
Given those three things, however… I do think that “creepiness” can also serve as a method of kyriarchal enforcement.
Think about it. I bet you could get a bunch of people to agree to the following
- Homeless people are creepy.
- Trans people are creepy.
- Men of color (especially on deserted streets in the middle of the night) are creepy.
- Mentally ill people are creepy.
- Crossdressers are creepy.
- Kinky people (especially sadists/doms) are creepy.
- The otaku who lives in his mom’s basement and collects miniatures is creepy.
Are all of these oppressed groups? Nope. Personally I’d classify crossdressers, kinky people, and otaku as “not oppressed,” but of course that’s drawing a bright red line through a whole lot of gray area. But all of these groups, regardless of how you classify them, are hit negatively in some way by kyriarchal narratives– for instance, the kinky person has to face a ton of sex-shaming, while the otaku has a ton of you’re-not-a-real-man ideas to contend with.
And one of the ways that the kyriarchy is manifested is by people considering them ‘creepy.’
I do think that male members of these groups are more likely to be considered creepy, because our culture thinks that (marginalized) men have more potential to threaten and hurt than marginalized women do. (Presumably, privileged men have an equal potential to cause harm, but they don’t because privileged men are clearly all saintly people who would never hurt a fly unless they deserved it for committing grave crimes like getting in the way of American oil interests.) Therefore, all things being held equal, a man of color will generally be considered more threatening and creepy by a white person than a woman of color will, and a male crossdresser will be considered more predatory and creepy than a female crossdresser will.
Why? Because men are considered to be capable of violence, and women usually aren’t. Because men are considered to have a predatory sexuality that goes about raping anyone who stays still long enough, and women usually aren’t. Because men are thought to have agency, under conditions of patriarchy, and women are not.
And I do think “that’s creepy” is a potent method of enforcing behavior. I mean, it’s horrible to be considered a potential boundary violator or even perpetrator of violence for a trait that you can’t change. For people who can hide who they are, such as kinky people or crossdressers, it serves as a reminder that they have to. For people who can’t, such as people of color or homeless people, it’s another reminder that your culture doesn’t entirely think of you as fully human.
The worst part is that it’s not even intentional. At least for me, “creepy” doesn’t come with reasons. My brain doesn’t say “you think Person X is creepy because they’re homeless” so I can separate it out from “you think that Person Y is creepy because they’re touching that person who looks obviously uncomfortable” or “you think that Person Z is creepy because body language.” Am I uncomfortable around Person X because they’re a crossdresser or because they’re actually being creepy? I don’t know.
Intuition is tremendously powerful and capable of synthesizing all kinds of information. Unfortunately, it’s also kind of stupid, because it works off heuristics and sometimes heuristics go wrong. Sometimes they go wrong in ways that are ultimately harmless– your brain distrusts Person Q, a perfectly harmless person, because they remind you of your abusive ex that you managed to escape just in time, which is unfortunate for Person Q, but of no significance in the long run. Sometimes they go wrong in ways that are really, really bad, particularly when they start feeding off cultural memes. Like “trans people are scary.” Or “men of color are scary.” Or… well, look at the list above.
In the moment, because you don’t know, it’s best to just trust your instincts. However, in the long run, one wants to strip one’s brain of all these nasty kyriarchal ideas. Although I have nothing beyond anecdotes to back this up and so it should be taken with all relevant grains of salt, I’ve noticed that the culturally creepy people that my brain doesn’t consider creepy are people that I have a strong positive association with. Trans people create great gender theory! Mentally ill people help you out when you’re mentally ill! Nerds are My Tribe! So possibly go off and befriend actual people of the demographic that freaks you out.
“I think he’s ugly, therefore he should think he is ugly as well and he should know I would never want him, thus his approaching me does not make sense. Creepy.”
True.
To add to the author’s piece, one group of people I have heard referred to as “creepy” frequently are those who have speech impediments, especially adult men. A lot of people, but not all, go through speech therapy throughout K-12 in order to correct “speech abnormalities”, but not all parents think that it is necessary. The idea being that, as long as their child is easily understood when conversing, then there is nothing disabling or abnormal about the child’s mode of speech. Several gents I have met over the years have been turned away and regarded as “creepy” because of… Read more »
I don’t think any of us would have a particularly hard time thinking up people or actions labeled “creepy” that violate no boundaries and are non threatening, nor people or actions that *do* violate boundaries and are threatening that nonetheless rarely if ever get labeled as “creepy.” Given that the weak correlation runs in both directions, I have a hard time accepting this “creepy = boundary violations.” It feels like a rationalization after the fact to me. Doubly so because I’ve only ever heard that definition amongst the feminist community that felt a need to come up with it lest… Read more »
Okay, 42 comments and no one has mentioned how problematic it is when creepers explode and destroy your hard made house? Or when they come up behind you and kill you after you just got a bunch of diamonds? Sheesh. (Although they do drop gunpowder.)
(Minecraft reference for those not in the know.)
THIS IS WHAT THE REFRANCE
You know, I don’t have a problem with anyone using the word “creep”, or really any other specific word. I have an issue with individuals projecting extreme bias on others with the intent of making an unfounded or under-researched conclusion. Really, words come and go but behaviors remain. Sometimes we focus, rightly, on the symptoms (language and cultural, personal presentation for examples) at the expense of the behaviors and internalized socialized concepts which act to create the symptomatic language. It isn’t about the word “creep”, it’s about the way in which we interact with others. One can be guilty of… Read more »
@mayfly, The difference between “creep” and other insults is that creep is both gender-biased in real life usage, and explicitly about someone’s sexual nature, which makes it on the whole as gendered as the female-specific insults that you’d have a problem with. (By comparison, “asshole” is also gender-biased in real life usage, but it refers to non-sexual behavior and I wouldn’t consider it a gendered insult.) In other words, would you make the same argument for the word “bitch”? Because that’s the apt comparison, not “asshole”. (Basically what L said, except that she was unaware that she was committing the… Read more »
Creep is not a gender-biased term, it’s a word used (most commonly) to denote behavior that violates boundaries and makes people uncomfortable in a sexual way. I’ve used it to describe both men and women- for example, I had a female high-school substitute teacher who was very touchy-feely with female students and who was commonly described as creepy by everyone at my school. For whatever reason men (in my experience) tend to be a lot more likely to act way, but that’s not a problem with the word “creep,” it’s a problem with the way men are socialized to push… Read more »
If creep is not gender-biased despite nearly everyone applying it disproportionately (I’d say overwhelmingly so, but we don’t need to get into the minutiae of semantics) toward men, Can you think of an epithet that you’d consider not gender-biased despite nearly everyone applying it disproportionately toward women? Come on, try. Bonus points if, like “creep”, it denigrates a woman’s sexuality or sexual behavior in some way. I highly doubt it. Because if any word did that, the fact that I can think of the occasional gender-flipped example or that the word isn’t inherently gendered in terms of root etymology or… Read more »
There a reason why my earlier response wasn’t allowed to go through? I’ll re-post a stub of it:
If creep is not gender-biased despite nearly everyone applying it disproportionately (I’d say overwhelmingly so, but we don’t need to get into the minutiae of semantics) toward men,
Can you think of an epithet that you’d consider not gender-biased despite nearly everyone applying it disproportionately toward women? Come on, try. Bonus points if, like “creep”, it denigrates a woman’s sexuality or sexual behavior in some way.
My two cents on the relationship between “creepiness” and boundaries: I feel like the “creepy” label is usually applied to a person whose (hypothetical) boundary violations one would mind far more than the objectively equal boundary violations by a non-creepy person. Non-creepy person sits down next to you in the bus so that zir thigh is somewhat pressed against your thigh? Well, these busses do get crowded at these times of day. Creepy person sits down next you and zir thigh touches yours a little? Damn, why are these seats so narrow??? I doubt “creepiness” correlates with the objective amount… Read more »
Okay, I have a question that is barely related: is it bad form to complement someone on their tattoos if they’re visible? (obviously not on the chest ior lower back, but on a bare arm or leg?)
I have no problem with calling someone creepy if they actually disrespect someone’s boundaries. I have every problem with it when it’s used to describe someone (of either gender) who lacks poor social skills, needs a shower, wears glasses or asks someone “out of their league” on a date. I’ve seen people being shamed for doing perfectly normal things for the above reasons and it sucks. Another nitpick: Personally I’d classify crossdressers, kinky people, and otaku as “not oppressed,” I know one woman who was outed as a prodomme by a rag newspaper. Her husband lost his job, they lost… Read more »
“Creep” is the middle-aged married HS SS teacher, who is a family friend and tries to ask you to go with him alone on a “special tour” of some local ethnic neighborhood….and I had to politely turn him down by saying some lame excuse (EWWW!!)…
“CreeP” is the even older balding hunched over pre-professional advisor at my Seven Sister college who touched my leg when I had to meet with him to go over my file prior to applying to grad school…YECCCHHH!! (I never reported him until recently…and he is long dead and gone I’m sure!)
I realize these are particular examples from your past, but I wonder if these men would have been “creepy” if you had found them attractive. The reason I ask is because of the very pronounced negative descriptions of these men, such as “balding hunched over” which isn’t really relevant to their behavior. I think this is what frustrates men about the label “creep.” When applied to behavior that clearly crosses boundaries – as in the cases you describe – it seems appropriate. When what makes the behavior “creepy” is the attractiveness of the person exhibiting the behavior, then it’s somewhat… Read more »
Nick, you have one of the best comments here. High 5
Unfortunately, someone’s behavior might come across worse if they are unattractive. But I think both of those situations are inappropriate. I’m female, and I had a female professor who creeped me out because she would always sit too close to me and do things like come up behind me and put her arm around me without warning. She wasn’t especially attractive or unattractive, and I didn’t take it as her being sexual or flirtatious, but I still felt like she kept getting into my personal space and it was creepy because if I moved away from her or even put… Read more »
I have been creeped out by objectively good looking men. Granted, the examples I can think of are all from when I was in my 20’s, and I was hit on by an older and/or married guy. Like, for example, when I was 21, the guy next to me on the plane asked me for my phone number AFTER he just spent the previous hour talking about his family and showing me pictures of his kids. He was probably about 45, pretty good looking as I recall. But my reaction was “ewwww creepy.” In retrospect he may have thought I… Read more »
‘I realize these are particular examples from your past, but I wonder if these men would have been “creepy” if you had found them attractive. ” If she had found them attractive then the situation where they kept bothering her after she told them to leave her alone *wouldn’t have happened*. The opportunity to be a creep wouldn’t have arisen, at least not right away. This happens more often to less conventionally attractive men, probably, and that’s unfortunate. But being conventionally unattractive is not enough; you’ve intentionally elided the behavior portion. The creeps she described made inappropriate approaches. “tries to… Read more »
@Nick Pavlidis: The men looked actually benign to me before their behavior was categorized as creepy… Please note the boundary violation: The friend of my mother, who is married and has 2 grown kids, should not be asking to spend alone time with me (I was a teenager then)…EWWW!!! [I’m sure it would have turned into “Uncle Pervie” time!] Please note that when a student attends an expensive Seven Sister College and meets with their pre-professional advisor it’s supposed to be about discussing one’s grades, standardized test scores, and application strategies…not about some dirty old guy trying to get a… Read more »
The men looked actually benign to me before their behavior was categorized as creepy… So you’re saying their creepy behavior is what highlighted the negative aspects of their appearance in your mind? I can understand that. The problem (and perhaps this is more sample bias than anything – I used to be a teacher, and much of my observation was of high school girls using the term) is that I’ve seen the term used more to describe awkward, not-conventionally-attractive guys than guys whose behavior crossed boundaries. I’ve also seen the term used when a girl is put off by said… Read more »
You are assuming that every woman should be available to be hit on at all times. Even an initial approach can be creepy if it is in a situation where the woman is clearly not seeking connections with people. This is where it gets a bit tricky in terms of reading social cues, but I still don’t think that is an excuse for men to get angry when they are slapped with the creep label. Some women may be ok with getting hit on at the grocery store. Some women aren’t. An individual women may be ok with it some… Read more »
So is it acceptable then for the women to call the guy a creep, asshole, whatever because he dared to hit on her in a supermarket? Is it really that big of a deal to say “Sorry, not interested” as the first thing instead of skipping straight to calling them a creep? Because if he’s being polite in his “hitting on” and she skips straight to highly derogatory accusations then she’s being pretty damn rude. If someone talks to me and I feel creeped out, threatened, I’m not going to call them a creep, what good does it do? If… Read more »
Did you pay attention to what the post said? These are times when the woman is clearly not seeking connections with people. It’s okay for a man to ignore that and force a woman to be part of his pick-up tactics yet somehow it is “impolite” (sounds awfully like gender tropes) for the woman to conclude such behavior is an over-stepping of boundaries? The poster is also correct about the hostile, negative reaction from the man once a woman makes it clear she isn’t interested. Also, with all the talk by critics about being mindful of non-NT and awkward men,… Read more »
And did you pay attention to what I was saying? Yes it’s impolite for him to hit on her when she doesn’t want it, BUT how is that indicated? Not every case will have a clear sign that she isn’t interested, and in our society a lot of successful pairings happen from this random hitting on, a lot of friendships start from such activities. So not all women will want to be hit on but some are ok with it, so what happens now? Everyone stops hitting on others? Or they take a chance and find out if that woman… Read more »
You’re ignoring much of what the author says and responding to that which s/he doesn’t. Nowhere does the poster suggest launching into verbal beat down against some well-meaning man, and s/he touches upon the common defensive if not hostile reaction to politely turning a man down (which you ignore). Off-hand I remember three instances of just that. And guess what, I’m socially awkward and I have an anxiety disorder. The ‘grocery store’ sign should be indication enough that one is taking a chance that there exist any secondary motives and uses of time for somebody buying groceries. On top of… Read more »
Let’s all listen to Radiohead’s “Creep”.
Interestingly, people forget that there was also a song by the same name by TLC.
The TLC song “Creep” was about “creeping around” as in cheating – not about creepy people.
well, considering that Left Eye actually burned down her boyfriend’s house, I’d say both meanings apply.
OT, but as a huge fan of the late Lisa “Left-Eye” Lopes, I have to step in. It was so frustrating to see her mocked and labelled a crazy girlfriend because of that incident. She and her finacee had a tumultuous relationship and the 105-pound artist was often seen in public all bruised up by her physically abusive football player boyfriend (in fact when she was arrested, she had a HUGE mark on her mouth from the preceeding incident). What happened that day was that she was angry at him and decided to burn his shoes in the bathtub when… Read more »
Hi, I’m pwlsax and I am a creep. (Y’all: Hi pwlsax!) * I got this way thru problems with social cues and an overactive fantasy live. An unrequited 1st love thing at age 16 turned me into a drama king thru high school, even as a taste for really cool music evolved me into a budding jazz musician. I had a desk job after college that killed my ambition for status, and another unhealthy love affair at that same time. Meanwhile I built a great jazz collection and self-taught on several instruments. Today I live with and help my elderly… Read more »
Even if the behaviour that is considered “creepy” can be clearly identified, the term tends to not be useful because it’s not definitive enough. Often times the term is down played. Because he’s “just a creep” (often associated with excuses, such as “he’s from a different culture so his behaviour is different which might seem creepy”). He’s not “harassing” someone, he didn’t “sexually harass/assault”, he’s just a creep (in this case, he consistently messaged someone despite her clearly asking him not to as well as kissed her without any indication from her that she was interested). But because we simply… Read more »
When I was living in a dorm, there were two guys that indicated interest in me. Neither were neurotypical. Both had issues in social situations, could not accurately read body language, and engaged in some odd behavior. One guy I had just met, the other I had known for quite some time, since we went to the same Vocational school before college. The one who was new to me, in the beginning of the year, would make women feel uncomfortable by staring at them for long amounts of time or he’d try to put his arm around them. However, once… Read more »
My point is basically that it’s not “ew this person makes me feel uncomfortable therefore they’re a threat and creepy” it’s more like “this person isn’t taking no for an answer and that makes them a threat and creepy”. At least that’s what I thought the definition of a creep was. Someone who didn’t take no for an answer. I’ve been in many situations where someone made me feel uncomfortable, but when I expressed that they stopped. They weren’t creeps, just maybe a bit socially awkward (such as in a case I described above). Which is fine, everyone does do… Read more »
You prefer content notes?
When I was younger (17ish), I discovered there was alot of creepy guys out there, who seemingly have a thing for podgey men with goatees in rock themed nightclubs. There attention was not just unwanted (being CIS HET), but turning them down might go badly (something learnt from Mildly Threatening Dude). These guys had all the marks of being creepy. But then I got a little older and hopefully a little wiser. Actually, apart from one guy, they weren’t creepy, and took rejection like a pro. Infact, I was just finding it creepy. Finding a situation creepy does not a… Read more »
Very well stated! 🙂
I’m fairly frustrated by the argument that the word “creep” is sometimes used against people who are perfectly innocent, thus we should stop using it (not that Ozy is saying that here, just that it seems to pop up a lot.) All insults are used inappropriately sometimes. A guy called me an asshole for parking (legally, not blocking anything or taking up multiple spots) in front of his house the other day while I dropped off something for a friend. That doesn’t mean that I’m going to go out and start saying we need to ban the word in order… Read more »
Exactly! I don’t understand how “creep,” specifically, does more harm than other insults when used inappropriately. It’s not like one instance of resembling someone’s abusive ex lands you on a National Registry of Creeps.
The one that does damage is the pedophile label, where mud sticks like superglue and can really mess up your life. Creep not so much. I think most people are trying to say creep is used wrongly at times and that people need to be careful how they use it, not just stop using it all together.
A surprising number of people (men) are calling for an end to the word. And a number of these selfsame individuals, however, have zero problem with words like “bitch” and “cunt”.
Well, I don’t like any of them.
I have a problem with “slut” and I don’t use it. I use the “cunt” word a lot however I live in Australia and it means something quite different here, a disparaging person with a gender neutral approach. Eg, if someone does a bad thing like cheat on his wife, he’s a “cunt”. I was shocked when an American told me it referred to a vagina, she actually used it to talk about her own! I try not to use bitch, I use the c word more or say asshole. Problem is if you’re around friends who use them a… Read more »
I like none of them, either. It is an annoying habit of many people (women and men) to fight against insults specific to their ingroup while using outgroup-specific insults with wild abandon, and is one of the most common hypocrisies in such discussions.
That said, I guess here will be one major spot to enjoy the popcorn …
I think you’ll find neither of those has the power to send a woman to jail. Have you heard of erasure by flase equivalence?
Oh, I agree! I just remember seeing another thread where multiple people were arguing that creep should never, ever be used.
How about harasser?
Trigger warning for thoroughly offensive language.
There’s fairly extensive feminist literature on the problems of “bitch” and “cunt”. Would you apply that argument to those words? How about “hysteria”? Or even the entitled “I mean ‘nigger’ in the way Chris Rock does” stupidity?
@Mayfly
I 100% agree with you. I think if used inappropriately–like other insults–it wrong. Often times people use “creepy” to refer to things they think are unusual. But that’s hardly the case when I hear and use it. The creep IS that guy who droves slowely. That “creeper” is that creepy ass person who lurks in a corner watching someone dance. There are lots of ways that “creep” can be used appropriately. And it is behaviorial. Someone is a creep beause they’re being hella creepy–lurking, gazing on an uncomfortable victim, following. That’s creepy and I think it’s ok.
“Creep” and “Creepy” aren’t useful words because they describe an emotional response, rather than behavior that triggered that response. Telling someone ” You’re a creep” isn’t useful, it gives that person no information with which to modify their undesieable behavior. Telling someone ” That guy’s creepy” is likewise useless, It’s a stronger way of saying “I don’t like that guy” without giving any information about WHY he’s considered a threat; it’s simply a call for ostracism based on emotion.
Why? Because men are considered to be capable of violence, and women usually aren’t. Because men are considered to have a predatory sexuality that goes about raping anyone who stays still long enough, and women usually aren’t. Because men are thought to have agency, under conditions of patriarchy, and women are not. Leads to people jumping to DefCon 3 (or maybe even 2) simply because the person in question is male or appears to be male. As you say there are other characteristics that can alter the odds further (big, black, and male for the DefCon 1 Trifecta of Threat… Read more »
Just don’t get caught carrying Snifters !
*Skittles
Sometimes being a foot taller and significantly thicker and broader than everyone else really was an incredible hassle when I was at college. I developed a really terrible self image, not aided by reading the wrong authors and/or blogs, and ended up sort of shuffling along between classes with my head down, eyes averted away from people so that I might not offend anybody. It got to the point that I felt like hanging a sign from my neck, “I am neither a troll nor a giant: I will not grind your bones for bread.” I’m not sure that I… Read more »
I had the experience in highschool of making a few girls nervous because I was over 6foot and bulky, I never knew it at the time. Funnily enough I was probably more scared of them than they were of me.
I seen this before with big guys – I call it the “Teddy Bear Syndrome” you know when someone prefaces a conversation with “Ken, he looks like he could crush you with one blow, but he’s really just a big ole Teddy Bear” as if merely size alone qualifies someone as a threat.
Yep, I’ve had that term “teddy bear” told about me. *goes back to playing with his kitten*
All well and good, but if you then tell your friends that Person Q was creepy without having any clear sense of why, you’ve likely done them harm. Assholery and violating boundaries are one thing, and in those cases it’s appropriate to spread the word, but where “red flags” are raised with no discernible reason (and reminding you of your ex doesn’t appear to be an actionable offense), to spread the label of “creep” seems to me quite reckless.
Most of the time I’ve heard women use the word “creep”, it has been about how that person looked. “He looks creepy”, usually a middle aged guy who is balding, might not dress perfect, usually said to guys who are not attractive. “3) Many of the people who are against the term “creepy” are themselves rather creepy, as they seem to be rather against the idea of people women having boundaries and being willing to assert them.” And many of them are people who see how the term is used to describe something quite different to boundaries, Creep shaming for… Read more »
“looks creepy”, usually a middle aged guy who is balding, might not dress perfect, usually said to guys who are not attractive. ”
AND is hitting on the person who thinks he’s creepy, despite the obvious disinterest of the object of being hit on. The guy who is very willing to ignore the other person’s disinterest is ignoring boundaries. Ignoring boundaries is creepy.
“AND is hitting on the person who thinks he’s creepy, despite the obvious disinterest of the object of being hit on. The guy who is very willing to ignore the other person’s disinterest is ignoring boundaries. Ignoring boundaries is creepy.” Sometimes, but not always. As others have said this happens to people who aren’t hitting on others, or even just the initial conversation, before the other person has said to go away or stated through body language they aren’t interested. I’ve heard women, hell even my mother, call someone creepy when the guy was 20 meters away doing his damn… Read more »
*Gets popcorn*
*Hands you a soda, sits back*
* Opens a box of Jaffas, wishing Snifters were still available *
Where I come from “Jaffa” is an insult.
Absolutely, Positively understood 🙂
I have enjoyed this in-joke a great deal.