TW for harassment.
This article provides an excellent example of how the Knight/Beast dichotomy plays into rape culture.
Some men harass women on street corners. Generally, our culture presents it as being working-class men– archetypically, construction workers. They’re Beasts, not like the nice Knights who can be expected not to whistle at women who don’t want to be whistled at. Their harassment of women is yet another element that shows that they’re not Our Kind Of People, like burping or visible butt-crack; because they’re blue-collar, they cannot be expected to be civil and polite. Therefore, women should refrain from complaining and just take it as a compliment.
Can I point out how insulting that is to men and boundary-violating it is to women?
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I have a serious question. If the whistling was only followed with “polite” compliments, you look good instead of nice tits, and there wasn’t the additional layer of fear from the other street harassment…would whistling and how do I say, nice compliments? feel as negative as they do to many women? Could women take it as a compliment if they weren’t assuming (and rightly so) that they’re doing it whilst thinking of them in a negative manner?
My understanding is that wolf whistles usually come with sexual comments and other negative attention which make it near impossible for them to be taken as a real compliment?( and the hyperfocus on female looks in media doesn’t help either with how many women feel it’s all they are valued for so compliments on beauty become too much compared to compliments on other aspects of her life/mind/etc).
Street harassment is, by definition, different from a compliment. If someone wants to compliment another, they don’t usually do it at full volume or in front of many sniggering other people, as street harassment often occurs. Even if the street harassers are only saying things that would sound fine in a different context, it is very annoying for someone who appears female to constantly have to ignore these shouted, humiliating ‘compliments’ when they are merely walking around. Someone yelling ANYTHING at you can be intimidating. For example, when I was at school I had a close friend who got harassed a lot in our neighbourhood for being quite eccentric. When she walked around in our area groups of kids who spotted her would start yelling out her name in an intimidating way. It is fine to yell someone’s name if you know them and need to get their attention, but that is a world away from what they were doing, which was taunting and provoking her. It was not WHAT they were saying, but how they were saying it. Not only that, but like a lot of street harassers they already knew perfectly well she didn’t want their attention.
Thanks for the reply, it’s good to know.
Yes. “I think that informing you of how I feel about how you look overrides basic considerations of politeness, i.e. expressing basic consideration and respect for you.” is less negative than “I think that informing you of how I feel about how you look overrides all considerations of politeness, especially as I probably will soon attempt to expressing my complete lack of consideration and respect for you.” Assuring women that they’re pretty and inferior can be done in a non-threatening manner.
Is it ever done to assure them they are pretty fullstop? I mean do guys ever just randomly compliment women not with the intention of harassing but with some misguided idea that it is actually a nice thing to do?
I would say yes, sometimes men do think it’s nice to do this crap.
Classic example would be the “come on, gimme a smile” / “you’re too pretty to look so sad” thing. Men who say that might think it comes off “classier*” than a straight up wolf whistle or something, but it’s pretty annoying to be told to rearrange your face to make it more appealing to some random stranger, you know?
* And yes, this relates to the idea that working class men are the only ones who engage in street harassment.
I compliment women without saying anything: I smile at a nicely dressed, attractive women.
All the guys I’ve seen admit to acting in this way claim entirely beneficent intentions. (Personally, I’d try to avoid interacting with anyone I knew acted in such a way, so I can’t speak as to their sincerity.)
However, the disrespect inherent in randomly telling strange women they’re beautiful is not meliorated by the lack of malice. The message conveyed by this action (that their value is being judged by everyone who sees them to the extent that they should value the good opinion of complete strangers) only becomes more insidious when coming from people who are not overtly malicious.
Good will is only believable as a reason, rather than a rationalisation, if the same compliments are also given to random men on the street.
i would say that most of the people who do such things have good intentions, but it shows an implicit acceptance of the idea that they have dominance over their compliment-ee.
if we swapped the genders in a situation like that it would definitely seem odd, right? it’s the historical roles of men and women that make such behavior seem ‘ok’ or ‘nice’.interrupting a stranger’s day to make personal comments to them, once the obfuscation of ideas about gender is peeled away, is revealed as a jarringly narcissistic and rude thing to do.
As a western cultural norm, whistling at someone is disrespectful, period. Whistle for a server, you’re getting spit (or worse) hidden in your food. Whistle at a woman, your actions will immediately be interpreted as predatory. If one can’t take the time or lacks the social skills to grasp another person’s attention using words, that person is more than likely not worth the trouble.
Is this purely for strangers? I’ve seen friends wolf-whistle each other quite a lot, even girls doing it to other girls as a way of saying damnn that outfit looks hot. I live in Australia, so it might differ from other countries?
I have a serious question for Archy: Why would you want to compliment someone that you don’t know and will probably never see again? I truly cannot think of an innocent reason to do so.
I never compliment strangers. I’ve occasionally wondered if it would cheer them up, eg see someone sad male or female and say something to give them a smile on their face but after learning about street harassment I realized it’ll probably make it all worse. I compliment my friends though, male n female, and it’s always taken in a good way.
There are innocent reasons but they will probably be misread due to all the bullshit people have to deal with, they won’t know what your true intention is and that will make it fail from what I can guess.
It is unfortunate, but unless you’re into fashion, I doubt there’s a great deal of meaningful compliments you could give to strangers. Maybe, you could try other means of improving peoples’ moods? What would cheer you up were you to see a stranger do it?
Simple random talk, a smile, compliment on my clothing or my looks (I never get compliments so it’d work on me a lot), I guess just acknowledgement of my existence in a polite manner. Hell a random joke would make me laugh my ass off. Someone telling me to smile would actually most likely make me smile n cheer up, especially if they smile too. I’ve seen it used in an attempt to cheer people up, not to say “smile cuz you’d look more beautiful”. I’d love to spread more positivity to the world n make more people smile but I don’t do anything mostly apart from smile at people as I don’t want anyone to feel uncomfy. Very occasionally I talk to randoms if I get the sense they are open to talking (not looking angry or distant, and I dunno how to explain the rest of the body language).
You sound like a nice person. Maybe you could ask your friends and acquaintances who are less self-confident what would cheer them up coming from strangers?
Good idea, I’ll have to try it.
Thanks for replying. Personally, I don’t like when strangers talk to me. Someone asking me a question would be ok, but I would feel uncomfortable if anyone complimented me in our first conversation. Perhaps I am just a suspicious weirdo?
I wouldn’t call that weird. I can see how it’d be annoying and even scary to cop harassment, or even just compliments all the damn time.
How about to cheer them up? When I go to dances I compliment my partners even when they’re total strangers, just because they deserve to know that they’re doing a good job. They seem happy enough to hear it!
I guess it’s more acceptable to compliment on performance, and because you’re doing an activity together it’s also more acceptable.
I was at a wedding and wanted to say the bride n bridesmaids looked beautiful, not to pickup but because they looked stunning and everyone else seemed to be saying it but I said nothing.
The difference that you seem to fail to understand is that you’re using examples of camaraderie with your friends to justify behavior with people that you know nothing about.
If your friend just had their dog die and were extremely depressed about it, you wouldn’t just up and tell them to smile (the implication of which is that their frowning or blank look is unsatisfactory or ugly to you, even though it is appropriate given their situation), would you?
My looks and my emotions aren’t public property that is free for everyone and anyone to critique. I never understood how people could be so egotistical to think that my day could be made or broken by having them tell me what they think of me, a complete stranger, at first glance. This isn’t the antiques roadshow, people. I’m not here to be appraised.
Telling someone to smile is not the same thing as a compliment. When you’ve gone through some trouble to achieve something – a graceful dance, a moving speech, a good hair day – then it’s validating to hear compliments from others. It’s not a command, it’s not a critique, it’s not born out of selfishness – it’s an acknowledgment that your efforts haven’t gone unnoticed. That’s not catcalling, whistling, demanding that they smile, or being snide.
And yes, frankly, it does make my day when I am complimented. So there’s my innocent reason – I do for others what I would want them to do for me.
The thing you fail to understand is I’m not trying to justify anything, but thanks for projecting. I understand clearly not to compliment strangers. The most I do is random talk with strangers, male or female although I feel more comfy talking to males because I don’t want to have women think the wrong thing and end up being told off. And by random I mean for example when I was at the airshow, I asked someone who looked like they knew (clothing and where he stood indicated he was in the industry) and we talked about the planes, learned quite a bit actually. If it was a female engineer however I probably wouldn’t have spoken to her since I so often see the anger women comment about with random men talking to them for ANY reason.
When you whistle at an unfamiliar woman, even with the absolute best of intentions, you’re assuming she’s the type of woman who will appreciate that type of attention from a stranger, and there is nothing flattering about that.
You’re leaving a lot unsaid there – what “type of woman” does appreciate that type of attention, and why is it unflattering to be such a woman?
If you think she’d find it flattering, you’re assuming she’s at least as trashy/low class as you are. so that’s no compliment. A good rule is to assume all women are ladies unless you know better, and even then, still treat them with respect. That’s a sign of a good man.
I assume there are women who sometimes appreciate being whistled at by strange men. I’ve certainly read some accounts from older women who wrote they missed it when the whistling stopped (although probably it was more about a sense of loss for their attractiveness rather than from the whistling itself). Now, even though they do exist I don’t know who’d like it and who wouldn’t and as an introvert I am also naturally disinclined to interact in such a way with strangers. I would however never judge those women who at times do find it flattering as low-class and trashy.
How exactly are YOU respecting people when you refer to them as trashy n low class? I see nothing but disrespect in your post, quite frankly it’s the same kinda disrespect sex workers get. It may not be flattering to you but please don’t assume it’s never flattering to anyone, that is extremely disrespectful in my books. I agree with holding off on whistles n compliments until you know better, but never would I assume a woman who enjoys random compliments to be trashy or low class…
I find your “trashy/low class” vs “lady” dichotomy kind of unsettling, frankly.
Classism. Gross. I, personally, would rather NOT like to be put on the lady pedestal, and rather on the “regular person” same-level-as-anyone-else.
The linked article and the attitudes described therein are definitely a part of the consistent campaign of degradation which working class men (working class women face it too, but in different ways so it’s a different tirade for a different time) face in many places around the world. Thank you kindly for bringing it into greater light.
It’s not a compliment to be whistled at or have smacking noises or kissy noises made at you… it’s very insulting and degrading….it’s the assumption that you are a street walker or easy (truly insulting when you hold advanced degrees and command respect at work)….even worse is when you are on vacation with your family and weird perverted guys follow you around (with your son and husband no more than several feet away) and make those noises…their sick sexual fantasies about petite Asian women supposedly overrides the fact that a woman is vacationing with her 11 yo son and husband…even worse when it is the train conductor of the suburban commuter train I ride every day to work…the fact that I pay hundreds of dollars each year to ride the train for the past decade means that I deserve to disrespected because I wear a skirt (for the record, saying “Good Morning” or “Have a Nice Day” is okay, but a wolf whistle from a guy I know is married and having marital problems [yeah, assh-le, I understand English and I can hear you talking about your troubled relationship with the other train conductor])….
For contrast, my husband holds the same degrees that I do, but he does not get wolf whistles or lip smacking noises on vacation like I do….if I see a group of men walking towards us, I get right behind my husband and son….men still try to whistle but they temper it if I talk loudly and stick close to my family….sometimes these men don’t care…they whistle anyway (as if it is normal to do so in their country)….
While I’m generally on board with what you’re saying, and I think what you’ve had to put up with is pretty nasty, I had a bit of a problem with this line:
“it’s the assumption that you are a street walker or easy (truly insulting when you hold advanced degrees and command respect at work)…”
One, there’s nothing wrong with being ‘easy’.
Two, being ‘easy’ does not prevent one from holding an advanced degree and/or being respected in the workplace.
I have a benchmark for this that I think makes it quite simple – I actually think I read it here somewhere. It goes like this:
Would you say/do the same thing if she had a man walking next to her?
I used to know someone who liked being hollered at by passers by. That’s fine, some people like pasting their faces with yoghurt and dunking their head in cornflakes – but for the majority who don’t, better just stay on the side of not forcing things on random people in the street.