There’s no denying that we live in an extremely youth orientated culture; we’re saturated with it, from an early age we learn that to be young and a is best, but also that Men who attempt to hold onto their youth for too long end up being ridiculed.
I suppose it has a lot to do with marketing; every corporation wants to hit the lucrative 18-to-35-year-old straight white male demographic, so we get aggressively pandered to. After a while I guess you can get used to that kind of treatment. To the point where it often seems to me that men aren’t even supposed to conceive of a time when we might not be as young as we are now. One minute we’re being encouraged to act like eternal teenagers. the next it’s drop that Xbox controller, man child, and find a wife. (A shaming tactic beloved of social conservatives)
I don’t want this peace to be misconstrued as an attack on male (or female) self-indulgence; I often find that the most staunch critics of so called “infantalisation” seem to be the most self-seriously smug people on the planet, who will often prefix their little rants against people having the wrong kind of fun with the usual “Don’t get me wrong, I’m a fun person, all my friends say so, but you people sicken me.” No, I dearly do not want to come off sounding like one of them.
It was commonly thought at one time that men would need to retain some of their youthful energy and imagination in order for them to cope with the stress of living and working in the modern world. While women… well, youthful exuberance isn’t going to be of much help with raising children and keeping a neat and tidy house now is it?
This also leads into that wretched stereotype that Noah illustrated in his piece about men being unrepentant slobs and it being women’s responsibility to civilise them and rein in their youthful excesses. In that scenario, women have maturity forced on them.
Yes it sucks, but things have gotten better now, or they are getting better precisely because women have won the right to have more freedom and with that comes more fun, and when I look at the dire state of the world at the moment I think we could all be having a lot more of it.
Yet it bothers me, and while I’m happy that society no longer expects a man to be settled by the time they’re 25 and that marriage and children are no longer the benchmarks for maturity (no seriously, thanks for that feminism) although if that’s what you want, then more power to you.
I guess what I’m trying to say in my roundabout way is I’m looking for a middle ground between wanting to stay young in spirit without making a fool out of myself, is that even possible?
Lolita-inspired dresses are fan-servicey? Didn’t know that. I find that my pink Baby, the Stars Shine Bright dress is everything but very sexy, unless you like lots of layers without a solid definition of the body. I just like the look a lot.
Panty shots aren’t the only form of fanservice. Pretty lolita-inspired dresses are fanservicey on their own. Though if you want something specific, both cure white and cure black has what is called Zettai Ryouiki ( http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ZettaiRyouiki ) because of their loose socks and skirts. But in reality, that’s far from the only example. Azumanga Daioh isn’t particularly fanservicey, 99% of the characters are female and don’t care about the male characters, it’s a comedy, not all that sexy. …And it’s original market was teenage males and it’s beloved by many fans of all walks of life. K-ON! is another one… Read more »
Not sure what would be the fanservice given Cure Black wears leggings under her short skirt and Cure White a big fluffy crinoline under her lolita fashion dress. There are no panty shots.
I’ll admit to not having seen more than the first two seasons.
Wasn’t Pretty Cure also full of Fanservice?
That ponychan thread was awesome.
Magical girl shows have an odd dual-demographic, especially in Japan, but even with Western Adaptations of magical girl shows. (MLP:FiM fits into this as well) You have the young girls, 6-12 or so. The expected demographic… And you have men age 18-35 as a secondary demographic. It is an incredibly bizarre quirk of the genre, but it exists. I mentioned Puella Magi Madoka Magica earlier, and indeed, for a Magical Girl series, the fanbase is fairly 50%/50%, and the show itself is DEFINITELY not for young girls. It’s a deconstruction of the whole Magical Girl genre. In Japan, the genres… Read more »
Pretty Cure is an anime that also attracted a male following, even though it’s a magical girl anime. Because it involves a lot of hands-on fighting, with the power-of-magic only used as a finisher. So a lot more action, and the very pink theme of the show can be forgotten.
“In some news report (think it was Fox or a Fox affiliate, no surprise), “bronies” were implied to be participants in Adult Baby lifestyle (definitely very Out There as lifestyles go – I find it squicky personally, but I refrain from passing judgement). ”
I wonder how they portrayed the AB/DL thing. It’s not as out there as you imply. It’s a subset of BDSM for some, a fetish for others, and a way of healing for yet others, sometimes more than one thing at once.
I think I worded myself poorly, there. I personally hate the term “femmephobia”, actually, since it takes the prejudices people have against some men who enjoy feminine things, and re-wraps it as misogyny. I like to think of it simply as bigotry against feminine males. In hindsight, I shouldn’t have used femmephobia to describe the phenomenon, but it IS some sort of stigma against males with interest in female-gendered things. And I know that inversely, I, as a tomboy, don’t experience that same bigotry to nearly the same degree when I play World of Warcraft or take classes in a… Read more »
@ Skid “Usually bronies get accused of not just that, but pedophilia, sexual deviancy, bestiality, homosexuality… Yes, of COURSE. Men can’t watch something with a primary target of little girls unless there’s something SEXUAL about it. …Oh dear, I think my eyes rolled right out of their sockets.” I think this is an example not just of the sinisterization of male sexuality but the sexualization of all aspects of masculinity. Men can’t do *anything* without it having a sexual connotation. Watch a cartoon for kids? Must be a pedo. Hug his male friend? That makes him gay. Comparatively we see… Read more »
“To use the education example, In my personal case, I have been teaching (elementary and middle school) for only three years, and I am only three years older than her, but I do feel that I have a better grasp of some of the things that are wrong with the way we do things in the educational system here than some of the parents, who have had their children in the system (by the time they get to me) for 12-16 years. ” So Cactuar, in teaching for three years, you have observed probably 90 children on a daily basis,… Read more »
My interest in the games was from a RPG player standpoint. I didn’t buy any of the following games. Because they’re essentially the exact same, unlike say Star Ocean and Final Fantasy games, that vary a little more than just changing town names and adding more collectible enemies.
“(us kids who had the original pokemon games are now in our early twenties)”
I had the original red and blue pokemon games. Probably still have them. I’m 29. I was 14 then.
Yes, there seem to exist people who don’t see any contradiction in that at all. I’m not one of them.
@Skidd
Did you just say that predatory sexual behaviour is assumed in men who watch a TV show aimed at female children, and that’s because of femmephobia?
Re: Japan Japan is unique in it’s overall “culture of cute”. Even men have interest in the cute things – especially when it comes to things like anime. There are entire markets of anime and manga series depicting cute things targeted at older audiences, and predominantly men ( http://tinyurl.com/3ufbxyn Puella Magi Madoka Magica: Aimed at older watchers, and mostly men, very dark plot involving death and demons and definitely Not For Kids). You can argue that this is more the otaku, sweaty geek type of person, but still there are men in Japan who spend hundreds of dollars on collectable… Read more »
@Clarence Fair enough, in regards to her specific case. Perhaps you were making a narrower point than it seemed to me initially. I do agree that perspective gained with experience is very important. I merely wished to make the point that wisdom, perspective, and expertise are not necessarily tied to having children/a family (even in the case of the education example), and conversely that having children/a family is not necessarily correlated with acquiring those things. It is possible, and for many subjects, likely, that a young person will be more experienced and knowledgeable than an older person. To use the… Read more »
Cactuar Tamer: I will assert that at 23 she likely lacks wisdom and perspective she will have as she ages and actually experiences things. I’m willing to bet her political and personal beliefs will be changed quite a bit by the time she reaches my age (40), esp. if she keeps an open mind and reads a lot.One thing that tipped me off that she doesn’t know very much is how she believes she can compare college to elementary and high school and that one system says anything at all about the other. I’d say it certainly doesn’t show very… Read more »
— Germaine Greer
I agree about the ‘childlike’ aspect of femininity, especially, as Schala pointed out, in Japan. One of my former co-workers was a great fan of Rirakkuma (a bear character along the lines of Hello Kitty) and had Rirakkuma everything, even in the office. I may be going out on a limb here, but I think that particular thing is a specifically ‘feminine’ form of “childishness.” I do not think it would be perceived in quite the same way if a man, either here or in America, saw fit to decorate his office area with nothing but, say, Pokemon. @Jim And… Read more »
“— the other gender is always supposed to fill in the gap, ‘civilizing’ the men, or ‘guiding and protecting’ the women. ” Indeed. During the Enlightnement there was a common understanding that women simply weren’t capable of higher thought and should be spared having to study the sciences or engage in politics. Too emotional, too weak for rational thought. Then the Romantics decided that all that raw emotion was the face of authenticty, the door to greater understanding, and women were suddenly the pure vessel. Two opposing valuations on the same bullshit stereotype. Was either variety “benevolent” sexism or just… Read more »
Yes, there is a ‘childlike’ feminine ideal that exists at various times and places, too, isn’t there? The interesting thing is that, whichever gender is supposed to be childlike — whether it’s ‘uncivilized’ men or ‘innocent’ women — the other gender is always supposed to fill in the gap, ‘civilizing’ the men, or ‘guiding and protecting’ the women. Whereas what we should really be looking for is a situation where both men and women become adults in a way that allows them to make their own decisions, and work for important things that they care about, and have fun.
Hello Kitty is aimed at all women, child and grown.
This is why they have Hello Kitty cars, “shoulder massagers” (really a vibrator in usage), wedding dresses etc.
But it is presented as childish and cute – pretty much what Japan aims at for feminity.
Clarence
That’s something I should of considered but really I think that would just make men more depressed. There are no jobs for life any-more and as you say prospects for the future are grim but still people snipe telling them “Man Up” and take responsibility all the while the media tempts them with shiny objects that they can’t have but know they should because the ads tell them they should. That makes for a fucked up situation.
Staying young at heart is not the sdame thing as unending childhood. At root it’s the willingness and the ability to be surprised and delighted. It means refusing to slip into cheap irony and emotional numbness as a shield against life. It’s a general enough problem in men that there is a whole counseling industry aimed at it. And I disagree with this: “While women… well, youthful exuberance isn’t going to be of much help with raising children and keeping a neat and tidy house now is it?” I think you’ll find that “youthful exuberance” very much is a special… Read more »