In response to a Julie Gillis’s piece, Valter Viglietti wonders if it’s really possible to talk openly and freely to a possible partner about maybe having sex.
Some days ago, Julie Gillis published a post called “Let’s Really (Really) Talk About Sex.” She is suggesting we talk about—and even plan in advance—our potential sexual encounters. If we discuss and plan even our most trivial activities—she says—why not do it for the more important stuff like sex? In the end, she writes: “If sex is that important, we really really should talk about it.”
I love her piece. I really do. In a way, it’s my dream come true: talking about sex freely and honestly, avoiding all (or most of) the hurdles and pitfalls we stumble upon when we aren’t expressing ourselves with full clarity. Being true and—hopefully—being happy together.
And yet, even if I enthusiastically adore her suggestion, I remain doubtful it could work.
- Julie says that this kind of discussion “often feels the opposite of sexy”; some commenters agree. Sex without sexy? Meh.
- Someone thinks that not knowing the other is more exciting, that knowing “too much” kills the mystery and anticipation.
- Maybe I’m scarred by my own experience, but I think most women would withdraw from a meeting if it began with that kind of talking or expectation—if just to conform to the social pressure to not be “THAT easy”.
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But even more than that, I presume this couldn’t work for at least three big reasons:
Emotional and Rational don’t play together
First, sex is mostly emotional, while discussing it is rational—and those don’t mix well.
When we plan a meal together, or a tennis match, or even a holiday, there’s not much emotional content involved. When it’s about sex, emotions are at their highest.
Think about talking to someone falling in love or someone who has just lost a loved one: the talking could be somehow helpful, but it would be so far away from the real experience to be—at least—awkward, if not downright out of place.
That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try, but we should be aware that talking doesn’t seem the best “tool” for the task.
Playing hide and seek
People resist exposing themselves or revealing too much. We are cautious about it because we don’t want to be hurt. We would like to know what’s in the other’s mind, sure, but we usually don’t want the other to know everything about us.
Hey, most people are more at ease being physically naked than metaphorically “naked” (as in “totally revealed and vulnerable”).
Only time will tell
Lastly, many times we don’t know what we want in advance. As in “This might lead to sex, but—right now—I don’t know whether I’ll want that or not; it all depends.”
WAIT! Is this true just for women?!?
Maybe. Maybe 99% of the men do know in advance they would like to have sex!—and I would be amongst them.
But with some men, too, knowing in advance that the woman wants sex might create some discomfort: “What if I won’t be in the mood by then?”
When this is true, discussing it in advance could create tension and ruin the chances.
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As a matter of fact, I could apply this stuff tomorrow: I’m going to spend the day with a friend of mine. We are good friends, we trust each other, we love each other (in a friendly way), and we even had sex years ago. Thus, our meeting could potentially end in a sexual way.
And yet, talking about it in advance? Oh, I don’t think so.
Not because I’m shy or ashamed about sex: when it’s about sexuality, I’m the most open, positive, and candid guy you could ever meet.
But because I’m afraid talking about it could likely destroy any chance it could happen:
- What if she gets anxious, or my desire makes her feel pressured? Now you know I long for it, you know I want it: there’s no way you feel neutral about it.
- If she denies the possibility, I’d restrain myself from any touching or cuddling that could be misinterpreted.
- The very idea and the discussion of it could make her think about the past and all the times this kind of situation went wrong. This would destroy the chance of her being just relaxed and open.
- Over-thinking options makes one stay “in the head,” not in the feelings or emotions; that’s far away from the best possible disposition.
In my opinion, this discussion approach could work only when both already know they want to have sex; then they could discuss the when and how. But if that’s not the case, I’m afraid that thinking and anticipating and questioning could make the situation worse.
If both parties are 100% relaxed about it, if they are “already there,” discussing is the best way to improve things. But what if they are just “halfway,” or just 40% or 70% there? Would the open discussion improve or jeopardize the chances? Would you take the risk?
In the original post’s main example, they were already open to having dinner, eventually. So it was mostly about the details and preferences. If it would have been about asking someone out, with all the implied emotional content, it wouldn’t have been so easy.
Oftentimes, context is everything.
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Thinking about this subject, I realize my opinion reflects one of my deepest fear: “If I be 100% myself, I’ll be rejected/not loved/not wanted”.
Is it just me? How many people feel the same?
Are human beings—on average—so afraid and needing of approval, that a whole expression of one’s self is possible only within an already intimate and safe relationship?
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Given all the above, even if Julie’s suggestion sounds theoretically good, there seems to be lots of arguments against it.
At the same time, I’m not saying “going blind” is a good way to go: not being clear and direct leads to a lots of (unnecessary) misunderstanding, disappointment and hurt. In relationships, communication is king.
While I’m skeptical about those kind of talks actually happening, I think the need is really there. I’m doubtful, yes, but it’s a case where I’d like to be wrong.
In the end, I still think Julie’s idea is wonderful. So I’m ending with a question: “What could we do to make that idea work?”
—Photo KitAy/Flickr
About Valter Viglietti
Lovely to see this! I’ll comment more tomorrow!
I just listened to this article on Vocalyze and really enjoyed listening to it. Valter I think too elements that are missing in the context of open sexual talk is the creation of an environment of sexual comfort and the ability to talk openly and honestly about sex. From my experience men and women who are in sexual safe environments (less judgmental, no obligations, etc) are more open to discussing and wild, uninhibited, artistic and amazing planned sex. Furthermore I think we have to expand our ability to discuss sex. We have to get off the yes/no binary paradigm and dig deeper: “Yes but not now”, “I’m interested but scared”, “Maybe after I know you better”, “I really don’t feel comfortable doing that now but after I know you better”, “I really had a bad experience..”, “Yes, let’s do it. By the way these are the things I like about that. Why do you like this?”, “Don’t worry about it. I understand you apprehension and we’re still cool/friends/lovers!”, etc…
Absolutely, this is exactly what I’m hoping for. Lovely point, SE.
It’s as if we are able to simultaneously raise AND lower the stakes of sexual discourse.
Absolutely. And I think the way that we’re both raising and lowering the stakes, in SnakeEyez’s examples of digging deeper, is by becoming more emotionally intimate with new or potential lovers than is usual for us, by admitting to fear, shame, and other uncomfortable emotions. At the same time, we lower the stakes of being sexually rejected because a potentially disappointing answer comes from a new, emotional context, and can be met with compassion instead of shame.
@Justin Cascio – Yes.
An eventual rejection then becomes less hurtful, because is no more “hard, cold, distant”, but more soft, warm, intimate.
@SnakeEyez – Yeah, I like the idea of “get(ting) off the yes/no binary paradigm and dig deeper”.
Perhaps, what we need to make it work, is two people who are not afraid about:
A) their own sexuality
B) highly emotional context.
Then it becomes possible.
What I heard in your response was: “I’m afraid that if I try to practice explicit, verbal consent, I’ll ‘scare off the sex’ and take all the sexy anticipation out of the seduction.” Those feelings are totally natural for someone who’s inexperienced with negotiation in this way. It’s scary making the switch from “trying not to ruin it” to “making sure she wants it.” After all, you’ve never tried it before – and you never see this sort of negotiation on TV or movies. Hell, probably most of your friends don’t do it. And they’re all doing just fine, right? So what is the advantage to taking this “risk”?
You will have sex more often, you will have better sex, you will be a better person.
Yes, that’s right. MORE sex. Listen, let me tell you a secret. Any woman who wants to have sex with you is NOT going to change her mind if you make sure she wants it first. She is going to think “Holy shit, this guy is awesome, he actually cares enough to make sure I’m enjoying myself; he’s not just worried about his own dick!” That’s the guy she’s going to be fucking again and again and again. That’s the guy she’s going to build enough trust with to explore each other’s fantasies with and do the really fun, freaky stuff. Giving people a CHANCE to say no means they’ll probably say yes more often because they know you’ll listen if they need to say no.
Yeah, probably sometimes you could have had sex if you would have not said anything. But THAT sex? That was never sex the woman really wanted. It was sex she allowed to happen. Hopefully sex she’ll be okay with later. Sex that wasn’t worth going through the hassle of saying no to. But not sex she WANTED. That sex is not good sex. And that guy? He’s not going to be having much sex with this woman. And they’re never going to build enough trust to do adventurous things. Besides, if you’re not comfortable enough to ASK for it, then you really shouldn’t be doing it. (How will you discuss safer sex, for fuck’s sake?)
My advice is PRACTICE. Try it out. It is a SKILL. You have to learn to pick the right moment to ask. You have to learn to ask in a way that makes them (and you) comfortable. There is a little learning curve, but it’s worth it. These days, even when I get a no, I can SEE how much they appreciated being asked first. And I feel like a better person for making sure my partners actually want to do things and that they feel comfortable saying no (which is a big deal!) when they don’t.
I’d also recommend reading lots of articles on consent (search for “enthusiastic consent” and/or “explicit verbal consent”). A greeeeat book for this is “Yes Means Yes”. Here’s an article from it you should check out:http://www.scarleteen.com/article/pink/an_immodest_proposal That will help you see some good models (like the conversations Julie provided) to help get you started. There are different ways of phrasing things, some of which will help you find a good fit for yourself.
Anyway, that’s just my take on things. I was nervous about being so direct too, but now, I can’t imagine how anyone does it any different.
A lovely comment. Practice. Rehearse saying things in a sexy way. I wish I’d had more time to comment today but I have a lot of time tomorrow. Thanks for this piece.
Thank @MJ, really useful and stimulating stuff.
I basically agree with you, having that kind of conversations might – eventually mean a little less quantity, but far better quality.
Reading your comment, I realized a key issue (at least to me): it’s all about the persons involved.
Since I’m used to women who are sexually shy and somehow shameful (here in Italy, thanks to Catholicism, pleasure-seeking women are still heavily bashed), that’s a bad starting point. OTOH, when I was dating more sexually open girls, it has been much easier; there wasn’t so much “drama” about it.
Hence, my fears stem – at least partly – from a cultural issue.
“Any woman who wants to have sex with you”
Well, in that case it’s no problem!
The problem arises when she DOESN’T know if she wants it or not. Then, the talking might make her nervous or defensive. But – again – this is more likely if she’s shameful about it.
It seems to me you’re talking about women who are clear and comfortable about their sexuality; who aren’t shameful about wanting sex and pleasure. Obviously, with such women this talking becomes much easier.
Lastly, I agree practice helps a lot. Part of my nervousness might be due to not having had much of this talking before.
I’ll check out your references, thank you.