I’m often frustrated by some of the issue coverage at Feministe, though I also envy some of the excellent writing they’ve got. This piece by Jill, however, is an unequivocal condemnation of the rape of men in the U.S. prison system, and framed in terms designed to speak to the kind of feminist who hasn’t really given a lot of thought to men’s issues.
One overlap, though, between prison rape of men and non-prison rape of women is the way American society views both as an inevitability. That plays out in different ways, but there’s a sense that incarceration must naturally lead to rape (see, e.g., “don’t drop the soap!” jokes), and that femaleness is inherently sexually tempting and therefore also leads to rape if you’re not vigilant about preventing it (see, e.g., every rape prevention tactic that focuses on what women should or should not do — don’t walk home alone, don’t wear revealing clothing, etc etc). At the same time, inevitability is tempered by the perceived ability to prevent rape if you just do things “right” — don’t commit a crime so that you end up in jail, don’t break any of the Rape Avoidance Rules For Ladies. It’s a convenient way to conceptualize assault — if you just behave yourself, you won’t be a victim.
Now, I think she could maybe take a little more time to look at rape of men in the general population, but the point she’s making is about prison rape and its function in the culture, so that’s what she focuses on. Also, as much as I’ve sometimes griped about intersectionality issues, it’s nice to see someone nail it with a heavy-hitting paragraph like this:
It’s also impossible to separate this issue out from racism, classism, ableism and homophobia. The U.S. prison population (including ICE immigration holding facilities) is disproportionately black and Latin@. Prisoners disproportionately come from low-income backgrounds. Prison populations also include many individuals with intellectual disabilities and untreated mental health issues, as well as histories of violent victimization which can lead to mental and physical health issues. And we’re imprisoning millions of people who are not actually violent and aren’t actually dangerous. Among non-incarcerated victims of sexual violence, women with disabilities are far more likely to be targeted for sexual abuse than women who are able-bodied and/or don’t have developmental disabilities. Native women have the highest sexual assault rates of any other racial or ethnic group in the United States. Stats for trans women and men are slightly more difficult to come by, since as far as I can tell they aren’t noted in the DOJ surveys, but every reputable study I’ve seen indicates that trans people experience sexual assault at significantly higher rates that cis people. Black trans folks in the prison system are assaulted at particularly astounding rates — around 30% report being assaulted while in jail or police custody.
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I’ve known a couple trans folks who’ve been arrested in their time, and… yeah, it ain’t good.
Anyway, go read the whole thing. It’s worth a good long look.
@Tamen *This is off-topic, but I’m not sure how I can draw Tamen’s attention to the open thread. No worries if you need to delete this. I’m curious as to why you’re named as you are. I’ve been studying Mandarin Chinese for a while now, and your name is how you write “they” in pinyin (a system, utilizing the roman alphabet, which you use to understand how to pronounce words). It’s lacking the accent mark over the “ta”, but that doesn’t keeping me from going “They what?!?!?” every time I read your name. 他们 … male script 她们 … female… Read more »
I’ve not merely stated that. I’ve provided links to Rolling Stones articles written by Cameron Crowe re-published on Cameron Crowes own official web site “The Uncool” in this comment: https://noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz.wordpress.com/2012/02/22/hard-hitting-piece-on-male-rape-at-feministe/#comment-31102 As well as a link to an interview from 1992 where he confirms that he lost his virginity to a divorced mother of a girl they knew. If one is afraid of copping any sexual story to your mother – and in particular a story about having sex with several women your age or a few years older I would think one would not write this at he end of… Read more »
“@Schala : The guy in the movie changed his mind. Do you agree that people can change their mind ?”
Wether I change my mind and tell someone to go ahead and punch me, it won’t hurt me, after they’ve already punched me…is immaterial. It’s still assault.
Sounds like freezing to me, by the way. If you want to convince a recalcitrant person, you don’t force them into the act and then deduce that they let you win, so they want it. No, you don’t do that if you value the person.
Tamen: As I pointed out in an earlier comment, Cameron Crow did not recall this experience – it’s fictional and diverges from his real experience by one key fact. The groupie who offered him sex when he was 15 accepted his excuse for not taking her up on the offer and she did not press the issue. I am going by this interview: http://www.infoplease.com/spot/crowe1.html (And he gave several others at the time of the film’s release). Q: And the scene in which his stand-in William is “deflowered” by a flock of “band-aids”? A: “…is true. We were in Portland, and… Read more »
@Tamen : The clip show exactly what is a female rapist. This is what we should discuss.
@Schala : The guy in the movie changed his mind. Do you agree that people can change their mind ?
@ Daisy – “I guess you all will understand when mores change yet again (and they will), and everyone decides that *you* have nothing worthwhile to contribute, and even your own word for something that is your own story, is not to be believed…. and you will understand how ageist and arrogant that is.” As times change so must we all. So long as what is expected of us is reasonable and just, there is no reason to rail against necessary change. To claim that you are from a different era where things were different is an excuse. You are… Read more »
I thought the link inluded the timemark – I guess that dissapeared when it got linked inline. The most pertinent portion is from appr. 5:28 and the rest of the clip.
Daisy: Like any sexual activity, I go by what the participants SAY. That’s good. The women in that film did NOT go by what the participants said in the first part of that sexual activity (undressing someone after telling them that you’re going to have sex with them (deflower in this case) is in my view a sexual activity). As I pointed out in an earlier comment, Cameron Crow did not recall this experience – it’s fictional and diverges from his real experience by one key fact. The groupie who offered him sex when he was 15 accepted his excuse… Read more »
“Schala, I listen to the man’s whose actual biography it is. I don’t impose my meanings on his biography, just as I don’t think radical feminists should impose their meanings on YOUR life.” No means no = Objective standard of consent. And one I can agree with more than Yes means yes (given there’s always the question of who needs to get the positive consent). Rationalize it all you want, it’s still shitty. I can say all I want that the bullying and beatings I had while young were “good things that helped forge my character”, it doesn’t change the… Read more »
A sage whose name you would all recognize just offered me the wisdom that me and Cameron Crowe are the same age (within two months!) and that is why we tend to view this situation the same way. Hm, maybe this blog is intended for people under 40? Is there anyone here over 40? Over 50? Am I the only person posting here, who is from the actual era portrayed in the film? I guess you all will understand when mores change yet again (and they will), and everyone decides that *you* have nothing worthwhile to contribute, and even your… Read more »
I agree with jesus_marley that. it’s rape. No means no. That’s it, that’s all. And I’m about as non-puritan as can be, too.
I was raised to mostly say fuck you to religion and be sex-positive. I’m pro-BDSM myself. I still don’t think you should go against the stated wishes of someone.
@Ozy – You have my Mea Culpa. I allowed myself to get drawn into a pissing contest. won’t happen again. Hopefully…
No, Mr Nice Guy, the Capt Kirk examples are both laughable… he falls in love with both of them later in the show. (One of them is shown as being on a planet in which the women are in charge, so um, that was sort of the point.) Yes, sorry it was Tamen, not Lamech… but it was not an example I would have chosen. Of the examples given, this one, “Disclosure” and the Star Trek shows are the only ones I had seen. *** Ozy, I assume he is “okay with it” because the author SAID SO. I am… Read more »
Daisy, are you SERIOUS? Yes, no means no. That’s like, basic Second Wave feminism. In general, on the Almost Famous thing– the movie is clearly under the impression the sex is consensual. That’s the problem. Because having sex with someone who has said “no”– without even a “hey, you okay with this?” check-in– is NOT OKAY. But because he’s a male, because he’s a teenager, because it’s group sex, because they’re attractive women, the movie basically assumes he’s okay with it– even when the circumstances could just as well be an overwhelmed kid who doesn’t really want the sex but… Read more »
@Daisy Deadhead :
Tamen talked about the movie first and you brought in the clip :
https://noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz.wordpress.com/2012/02/22/hard-hitting-piece-on-male-rape-at-feministe/#comment-30877
Saying it was an example of mixed signals and you started talking about statutory rape (which is not the same thing as non-consensual ordinary rape). It would have been better to say that the movie doesn’t fit with the other examples of movies given by Tamen – which are clear examples of women raping men.
@Tamen I hear you and your standards are good but not unreasonable (sadly higher than most people can manage), but remember what your goal is. You were asked for examples of female on male rape, by a skeptical audience. The impact you want is “OMG, I can totally see it happening now. Wow, never thought about it that way” not “Are you sure that’s rape, he looks really happy at the end. No way, I’ve had dozens of nights that went just like that, your crazy if you think that’s rape”. Unfortunately you will be asked this again and again,… Read more »
last reply to Daisy – I know I shouldn’t do this…. First off, you have no concept of my sexual history, my views on sex, or anything else. My views regarding consent are not new, they are not radical. They are what any reasonable person should expect in a society that respects bodily autonomy. No means No. What is so anti sex or puritanical about such a philosophy? Answer that question. Your baseless and utterly false accusations are both inappropriate and unappreciated. I am really not at all surprised that you get moderated as much as you do. I am… Read more »
Mr Nice Guy: Anyway, I don’t think that Daisy should have brought in this clip in a discussion about women raping men because the clip clearly shows it’s not a rape.
WHAT? I didn’t bring it up at all, Lamech did, as an example of women raping men.
Please read the actual thread, people.
Jesus: Really, I had honestly hoped that we could have an open and honest discussion but it seems that you are not interested in approaching this with any level of maturity. Are you kidding? I am trying to get you elected PRESIDENT! I think your Baptist sexual rules, applied nationwide, will make most women RICH RICH RICH! (as we know, the statute of limitations has run out on lots of stuff, but we can still file civil lawsuits) I am trying to get us all new cars, here… in fact, you could save Detroit SINGLE-HANDEDLY with this plan! I think… Read more »
In my previous comment (which is in moderation as I write this) I miswrote a word. Normally not a biggie, but I attributed that word to Daisy and I want to correct that:
Replace where I wrote trance with being enchanted when you read the comment above.
@Daisy:”Um, but then why did you bring it up as an example of rape in the first place, if its “his decision”? Rape, by definition, means it was NOT “his decision”? Do you see? You just admitted it wasn’t rape.” How do you…? Okay, rape is when you don’t consent to having sex yet someone goes ahead anyway. Just because something else afterwards was your decision does not negate rape before hand. So consider the following example. A has sex with B, and B explicitly doesn’t consent. That would be rape. Then afterwards B makes a number of decisions, no… Read more »
“Again, If he decides that he is ultimately OK with what happened despite his protestations, that his entirely his decision. Um, but then why did you bring it up as an example of rape in the first place, if its “his decision”? Rape, by definition, means it was NOT “his decision”? Do you see? You just admitted it wasn’t rape.” No. It is his decision to frame it as a positive experience after the fact. If he wants to view it as such, he is free to do so, as are you. it does not change what happened. see the… Read more »
@Lamech:
Have you seen his eyes ? It’s obvious he agree. And he doesn’t push these girls away. He stay there.
Anyway, I don’t think that Daisy should have brought in this clip in a discussion about women raping men because the clip clearly shows it’s not a rape.
Lamech, Jesus won’t email my lawyer, so will you? You will explain to her how I was raped by my ex husband, right? And as I said, you will also explain all of this to his current wife and children? Since I think this accusation might upset more than just him. Gonna get this lawsuit rolling! (I have decided on a Bentley). Lamech: In addition we see him being forcibly dragged away into the bedroom and having his clothes forcibly removed. And then he sits and stares at Kate Hudson for awhile. Why do you guys keep forgetting this part?… Read more »
@ Daisy – Ok it is now very clear to me that you have no intention of engaging in an honest discussion. You have taken great joy in taking small snippets out of context, and twisting them into outrageous fallacies. even going so far as to tell me what my life history is regarding my religion. If you had actually bothered to read what I said earlier, you would see that in addition to my beliefs regarding saying “no”. you would have also seen what I wrote about garnering consent after that. “Funniest fucking thing I ever read, especially considering… Read more »