Clarisse Thorn’s New PUA Ebook

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Comments

  1. “In case of putative mental disorders, a good metric would be, would this person have problems leading a normal social life and a normal professional life, if they were never “outed”?”

    Define normal social life? What’s wrong with preferring to be alone? What’s wrong with being asocial (ie avoiding social events as much as possible, even if you do okay while into them)?

    What is a normal professional life? A string of dead-end jobs forever until you die counts? One dead-end job at Mom and Pop’s eatery until you die counts?

  2. Thomas: …you will never pick up generically hot girls with ease.

    Yes, and as we all know, they MUST be hot.

    Just underlining this… you all glide past this little phrase as a given– as if you are not excluding 75% of the women you meet, then wonder why you’re alone.

    You have no moral authority to criticize ANY women for wanting a rich or famous man, if you summarily reject all “non-hot” girls.

    Same. Same. Same.

  3. @schala:
    “It’s probably considered awful for driving a car however, except maybe for races (in everyday driving it would be a handicap to not be able to divert attention away at will, to say, spot other cars coming from other directions).”

    Actually, driving is one of the most common situations where even non-autistics report having occasionally experienced hyperfocus. Usually while driving at twice the speed of surrounding traffic, bobbing and weaving between other vehicles, aware of the exact position, direction and speed of every vehicle and pedestrian in a two-block radius… or something like that. Just don’t try to have a conversation with someone in that mental state.

    @pocketjacks:
    “I’m not saying homosexuals or BDSM-oriented individuals should necessarily have to “pass as normal”, but the fact that it’s even possible for them to do shows that there’s a qualitative difference between what makes them different and what makes an Asperger’s syndrome sufferer different.”

    In fact many adult aspies can and do pass for normal most of the time. The occasional slip-ups, and long-term effects of those, are the main problem. Most people just think I’m a nerd, not realizing that I’m just going by their choice of words and not their tone of voice, facial expressions, and body language. So long as I don’t screw up too badly, they can’t tell the difference.

    Not to mention, people who are unusually tall may have difficulty passing through doorways, finding clothes that fit, sitting properly in a car, and can’t easily pass for normal. Should we abort basketball players?

    @pocketjacks:
    “I do agree that high functioning autism is a borderline case, as diagnoses go, and I apologize if my pronouncements cause real ASD sufferers offense. I’m only motivated by the desire to see the most justice for those who are born with these conditions.”

    Most young aspies suffer greatly due to the inflexibility of the school system, and the prison-like social environment it creates. I think basic classes in non-verbal communication and behavioral sciences would help young aspies tremendously.

    @pocketjacks:
    “For context, I also have transhumanist leanings and believe that, for instance, we should re-write our genetic code to get rid of genetic illnesses.”

    Before erasing people from the gene pool, you should at least carefully consider potential trade-offs. Sickle-cell anemia and thalassothemia help protect from malaria. Fast-twitch vs slow-twitch muscles. Several genetic illnesses even have suspiciously high correlation to higher IQ in relatives or the individual themselves, such as myopia, tay-sachs, tourettes.

    @pocketjacks:
    “High-functioning autistics are certainly within their rights to refuse treatment if they wish. (I just disagree w/r/t to children.) But low-functioning ASD? They require 24 hour care and may barely be able to feed themselves. Such considerations should trump “zen”, I should think.”

    I wouldn’t give up my “zen” for better social skills, but I’d rather have it both ways if I could.

    I haven’t heard of any low-functioning, or even mid-functioning autistics who wouldn’t rather be high-functioning. There is some evidence that functioning level has nothing to do with individuals being “more autistic” but rather other problems such as mental retardation, sensory processing disorders, and motor coordination problems, which have fewer (if any) upsides. Go ahead and fix those, please.

  4. @DaisyDeadhead:
    One man’s 4 is another man’s 10, and vice-versa. Just because guys want to pick up hot girls, doesn’t meant they agree on what that actually means. The community in PUA forums seem to understand that not everyone has the same ideal of “hot”, or the even same goals. (casual sex, LTR, family and kids, soul mate, …)

    For what it’s worth, at least 80% of women I see are physically attractive to me, and I’d probably bed the other 20% if they really wanted to. Unfortunately I can’t tell who’s interested, don’t know when/where/how to approach, and I don’t want to be “elevator guy”.

  5. Schala and daelyte, autism note.

    “60 Minutes” is doing a show on “Face blindness”–people who can’t remember faces at all. The opposite is of this is “super-recognizers” –who remember virtually ever face they’ve ever seen. There is a secondary condition associated with that, known as “before they were famous” syndrome, people who can easily recognize very old photos of well-known people. I scored pretty high on this, missed only two.

    Since I scored so low (high?) on that NT test, I am thinking it is likely that they are connected. I know, causation, correlation, etc etc… but still, it is interesting to me!

    Here is the test (watch video): http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504803_162-57399111-10391709/

  6. @DaisyDeadhead:
    Prosopagnosia, I have a friend who has it. I saw him on a bus once, a few hours after we chatted elsewhere. Out of context, he had no idea who I was until I reminded him.

    So are you hypersocial? My dad is like that, and his mother before him. Force of nature.

    A lot of aspies end up with a hypersocial friend (or partner). Seems that for those who know everyone and heard all the jokes, aspies never stop being interesting.

  7. A state of unlimited concentration that generally can’t be interrupted if the interest in the task is high enough?

    This is called hyperfocus and, paradoxically, it’s often a sign of ADHD.

    My remark about “hit them over the head with it”: Example, I once got a guy up to my place to listen to my Deadhead bootlegs and what did he do? Listen to the bootlegs.

    You know, in that situation, I would do that, too.

  8. (Hmmm… my WordPress login didn’t default to “Doug S.” as I expected it to.)

  9. pocketjacks says:

    @Thomas,

    The simple truth is if you are not tall, handsome, rich, famous etc. you will never pick up generically hot girls with ease.

    I’d like to give you time to clarify, because this sounds really bad. Of course not every man can pick up generically hot girls because – for starters – there are far more men (no qualifiers) than there are generically hot girls.

    Your analogy with the “Health At Every Size” movement suggests that you didn’t mean to say what would be the worst interpretation of what you said. Not everyone can (or even wants to) get a Hollywood star’s body or success with women, due to life circumstances, genetics, or whatever, but everyone is capable of much better than they’re doing now, right? Someone who has reached physical maturity with a certain frame and weight range cannot reliably drop 60 lb. in a healthy manner (which may be what’s necessary to go from visibly fat to socially normal), and so should not be expected to do so, but they can eat right, exercise, and drop 15 lb., gaining more mobility and quality of life.

    I’d caution that the Health At Every Size community has its extremists. There are those who attack even the conscientious fat person who wants to lose that 10-15 lb. (because medically speaking, they really should). I agree that PUA should be more like this and less like “Seven Minute Abs”, but we’ll see our share of extremists here as well. In this case, probably more external than internal; probably people who are still not satisfied and would regard anything other than very low-status men acquiescing to their place on the present totem pole to be unacceptable.

    And for the record, there are ex-PUA’s and some of the more enlightened on the fringes of the community who already do what you and I are advocating for. I endorsed one of them in particular earlier, and Clarisse Thorn seems to have a favorable opinion of him.

    @NMMNG

    Attacking Roissy is not attacking all men.

    I already took care of this counterargument earlier, with:

    With respect to NMMNG’s claim that he wasn’t attacking “betas” in general but only Roissy, which makes it okay: Sarah Palin’s a specific person… [...] Is calling her a slut (but not making a broadside against “sluts” in general) okay?

    I also said this (while responding to Dr Anonymous, who was talking about NMMNG) earlier:

    I, for one, noted your criticism and borrowed it in my last post. [b]“Ignore arguments you can’t counter, hope to bury it under newer comments” is a rhetorical tactic as common as it is dishonest.[/b] I’m glad you’re not letting them off the hook, keep at it.

    … that perfectly describes what he just did now.

    In his video, Mystery doesn’t talk about mixed signals sent by a woman when she flirt in a bar, he talks about all women

    If that’s the case, I disagree with Mystery and agree that that’s not something men should take after.

    @Dr Anonymous,

    I don’t know. Going back to my exercise/crash diet analogy, that industry is still going strong despite widespread scamming and misinformation. I’d agree that an industry cannot wholly be based on this. They must be preaching some underlying truths, and success has to be possible, in theory.

    Exercises and crash diets do actually work, after all. Competitive fighting such as MMA or wrestling, as well as method acting, wouldn’t exist if they didn’t; fighters bulk and cut dozens of pounds’ worth of fat and muscle between training and the pre-fight weigh-in, and actors can pack on or shed even more between roles. For these people, however, their bodies are their livelihoods, they can concentrate on that and nothing, and so their results cannot be replicated for normal people. The most dramatic success stories in the PUA world, certainly those of some of the cult celebrities within it, are the same. They have no outside day jobs these days and even during their pre-fame days put their entire lives on hold to go out to bars four or five times a week. That’s not doable, or desirable, for most men. If that’s all you were saying, I agree.

    @Daisy Deadhead

    Yes, and as we all know, they MUST be hot.

    Just underlining this… you all glide past this little phrase as a given– as if you are not excluding 75% of the women you meet, then wonder why you’re alone.

    Less than twelve hours. Less than twelve hours separated that comment from yours, twelve hours of mostly nighttime. Give us some time; not everyone checks sites multiple times a day.

    Also, ad hominems… don’t do them. Most of the men on this site are either married or happily single. We, as part of an increasingly self-aware generation of men, care about what happens to involuntarily celibate, virginal, or near-virginal men for the same reason that all women care about beauty standards. But trying to imply that all the men who are a part of this movement (i.e. those who disagree with you) must be a part of these groups themselves is like saying all women who complain about beauty standards must be fat or ugly.

  10. pocketjacks says:

    @Schala,

    Define normal social life? What’s wrong with preferring to be alone? What’s wrong with being asocial (ie avoiding social events as much as possible, even if you do okay while into them)?

    Nothing. An adult can make this choice for themselves.

    However, I’d argue that asocial or under-social (is that a word?) people are, on average, much less happy and are subtly oppressed in the wider world, so we should try to steer children away from this course as much as we can.

    @daelyte,

    Not to mention, people who are unusually tall may have difficulty passing through doorways, finding clothes that fit, sitting properly in a car, and can’t easily pass for normal. Should we abort basketball players?

    I see two miscommunications here. First, I never advocated abortion of affected fetuses, that was a scenario that Schala brought up. All I said was that the orientation of established should be strongly in the direction of intervention when it comes to children.

    Second, tallness is socially privileged over shortness, so it’s not the best analogy here. (Sure, there’s a tipping point beyond which excessive size makes you look goofy in the eyes of many, but still.) The better one would be excessive shortness, or some form of congenital dwarfism.

    And I’d say the same thing for dwarfism. There’s nothing wrong with being a dwarf, but if I were a practitioner faced with a dwarf child, and a treatment to eliminate their condition existed, I’d strongly recommend it – keeping in mind that I wouldn’t have the power to force anyone to do anything. Many of the concerns here are similar; dwarves have their own culture that parents may want their child to assimilate into, and that’s understandable, but I still regard that as unfair for the child. Professional prospects, social prospects, anything prospects, go down and he or she would face a much more limited future.

    As for the rest of the things you and Schala brought up… I want you to know that I’m not ignoring them, I’ve just said what I wanted to say and the two of you obviously have more experience with the topic so I don’t see the point in further tit-for-tatting. I’ll keep everything you’ve been saying in mind.

  11. “This is called hyperfocus and, paradoxically, it’s often a sign of ADHD.”

    Well, I don’t have the hyperactive deal for certain. And as for ADD, I can’t be certain. I did very well in school without even trying. So did one of my brothers, and he got diagnosed with ADD and got meds for a while. When I was a kid, ADD wasn’t diagnosed that way. Neither was aspie. I was in kindergarten in 1987, and only one year unlike almost-newborns spending nearly all their time since birth there.

    ADD meds wouldn’t have helped me, the way they didn’t help my brother who just turned 21 last week. It was an hindrance. It’s always been a question of motivation, because the brains and the capacity to do it was always there. I lost motivation in 10th-11th grade, and my grades went from a 90% average to a 82% average. Note that I didn’t study. My worst subjects didn’t interest me much: Physical education, and sociologically-enclined courses, also religious courses. I did well in maths, physics, chemistry, english second language (low standards), french first language in matters of cleancut answers and less in oral and writing composition (where my problem was no orthograph, verb tenses or anything they could fault me with using a grammar dealie…it was the creation that was problematic using their creativity criterias that held no logic to me (too vague).

  12. @pocketjacks

    Ok, let me clarify. I wrote this in mind with the promises PUA coaches make to sell their products. As a reality check against the claim that some system will turn anyone into an irresistible womanizer. The good thing is you don’t have to be a womanizer to get into a relationship or have casual sex. Most men are not, I’m one of them.

  13. @pocketjacks:
    “There are those who attack even the conscientious fat person who wants to lose that 10-15 lb. (because medically speaking, they really should).”

    Exercise and eating healthy foods is what matters for health, not overall weight. Sumo wrestlers are very healthy, at least until they retire and stop following their strict (and healthy) regimen.

    “However, I’d argue that asocial or under-social (is that a word?) people are, on average, much less happy and are subtly oppressed in the wider world, so we should try to steer children away from this course as much as we can. ”

    Most introverts are happy being introverts, it’s extroverts that are unhappy with us not wanting to socialize every second of every day.

    @pocketjacks:
    “I see two miscommunications here. First, I never advocated abortion of affected fetuses, that was a scenario that Schala brought up. All I said was that the orientation of established should be strongly in the direction of intervention when it comes to children.”

    You said a cure for aspergers “should be administered to children as a matter of course. It’s saving them from what would be an unduly hard life.” A doctor pressuring worried non-autistic parents is not the same as informed consent from the child itself, and the result would be defacto genocide of the autistic population within a generation or two.

    As for intervention, it depends on how it’s defined and what the goals are. I’ve had no behavioral therapy or forced socialization, yet everyone I’ve met, initially doesn’t even believe I have aspergers, because I don’t “act autistic”. I got to read up on behavioral sciences early, did some judo for my motor coordination problems, and my parents took me out of school and homeschooled me (not as soon as I would have liked), and all of these helped me.

    The aspies that are suicidal by the age of 6, are the ones whose parents try to make them “normal” using behavioral intervention and forced socialization to try to “cure” them of their autistic behavior. It’s not for the good of the child, but because the parents are uncomfortable with it – they want their child to be like them, no matter how miserable the child is with that. Those children are the most miserable autistics when they grow up, too. Kinda like therapy for gay kids.

    Most aspies outgrow much of what is perceived as “autistic behavior” by the time they reach adulthood. A bit of social education in a more formal academic style would make a big difference, the earlier the better but it’s never too late. I haven’t seen many adult aspies object to that.

    If I had a pill that could make me temporarily non-autistic, I’d take it about every time I go out. I wouldn’t take it when I’m programming or doing other non-interactive things. As I said before, I met several people who would like the reverse – a pill that would make them autistic when doing things where hyperfocus is helpful, while retaining the option of being non-autistic in social situations such as parties, job interviews, and so on. Some people who have ADHD use their meds that way due to the side effects.

    “Second, tallness is socially privileged over shortness, so it’s not the best analogy here. (Sure, there’s a tipping point beyond which excessive size makes you look goofy in the eyes of many, but still.) The better one would be excessive shortness, or some form of congenital dwarfism.”

    Medical treatment for the inherent health and well-being of a patient is one thing, whereas doing it for the sake of social conformity is another. Which is exactly why I picked tallness, because it’s the same as dwarfism except for social bias. I considered skin color as well. Wouldn’t it be easier socially for a child to not grow up being perceived as “black”?

    I say if society is broken, fix society.

    That said, I’m not against designer babies in general, or even widespread genetic engineering for the improvement of society as a whole. I just think it’s important to understand that there are always trade-offs, so when trying to improve people we have to ask ourselves “better for what”?

    “I’d strongly recommend it – keeping in mind that I wouldn’t have the power to force anyone to do anything.”

    When a doctor strongly recommends something for their children, most parents go along with it without questioning it unless they happen to already know better. The child rarely gets a say.

    “As for the rest of the things you and Schala brought up… I want you to know that I’m not ignoring them, I’ve just said what I wanted to say and the two of you obviously have more experience with the topic so I don’t see the point in further tit-for-tatting. I’ll keep everything you’ve been saying in mind.”

    I didn’t get the impression you were ignoring us, in fact I find you did a good job of discussing it from your point of view without it turning into a flame war (as touchy subjects often do). I gained a better understanding of your point of view, and refined my explanations a bit.

  14. @daelyte, for what it’s worth that whole entire hypothetical scenario is a really tough call. Most [rational] people wouldn’t have a problem giving babies a measles vaccine or having them go through open heart surgery to save their little infant lives. If you wait until adulthood to make certain decisions then it’s already too late: you’re dead. With something that is not life-threatening but nevertheless can’t be held off until the age of consent, the dilemma gets muddied. I’m going to just say, at that point it has to be the parents’ call. Because the decision has to be made then and there and no one else can make it. That’s the only reason why.

  15. @dungone:
    For things that are not life-threatening but can’t be held off until the age of consent, of course it has to be the parents’ call, but they should also be made aware of what adults who have the same condition think of the treatment, what the child can potentially lose by receiving said treatment, and what other alternatives are available.

    I think few parents would choose for their children to be blind – even if both parents are themselves blind. Same goes for hypothyroidism, or chronic depression. While some parents would want their children to be deaf or dwarfs like them, I think most non-deaf and non-dwarf parents would still opt for treatment. But for some conditions, when exposed to the advantages and not just the horror stories, more parents may choose other options.

    From another angle, if deaf parents want their child to be deaf like them, would it be ethical for a doctor to alter the child’s DNA to make it deaf? Is it the parents’ call?

  16. I bought it as soon as you suggested it but had to delay my reading for working reasons. I am regretting starting it today, just before going to bed; I just don’t want to stop reading it.

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