Marcus Williams has figured it out. Sex is beautiful and communication should be open—except when there’s lust involved.
Tom Matlack’s recent article, “Is Male Lust Turning Us Inside Out”, was a thoughtful piece about male lust and how it … the way men … that it would be great if we could …
Shoot. Beats me what it was about. I mean, I’m sure it was about something, and I really did read the whole thing the first time through, but the ensuing discussion in comments was focused on the first paragraph, in which Tom described a friend as a “wonderful husband,” despite him having dropped the bomb that motherhood had “ruined” his wife’s tits. (It’s possible that wasn’t the only focus, but I stopped trying to keep up around the 150th or so comment.)
To be fair, the husband didn’t just say that his wife’s breasts were ruined—he also told Tom about sneaking porn and going to strip clubs without his wife’s knowledge because “she would freak out if she knew,” and made it sound like his only alternative would be to have an affair with a teenager. As a man, husband, and human, that part of Tom’s description did not sound very wonderful to me, because I don’t think that kind of deception is consistent with a healthy relationship. It’s the deception I have a problem with, not the porn or strip clubs.
The deception aspect of Tom’s friend got a little attention in discussion, but what really depressed me was how quick the women in the thread were to condemn the friend and dispute the “wonderful” part for the crime of no longer finding his wife’s breasts as beautiful as he once had. Over several comments and even across threads on other articles, many commenters echoed the theme that if a man wasn’t prepared to lust after his wife’s breasts—and nobody else’s—forever and ever, then he shouldn’t have married her and he damn well shouldn’t have got her pregnant. Breast fetishes are disgusting anyway and a wonderful husband would know that and transfer his lust to other body parts or, even better, the whole person. Selfish asshole. (I’m paraphrasing.)
I’m onboard with any argument that fading physical beauty is not justification for deceiving one’s spouse, much less cheating on them, but I am dumbfounded by the shock and outrage over a statement that age and/or children had a negative impact on physical beauty. I can’t believe that any of the women criticizing Mr. Wonderful would suggest that his wife’s breasts were just as amazing to look at after motherhood as before, but they seem to be saying he’s a lout for not thinking exactly that, as if there’s a magic switch husbands can toggle to cancel out the effects of gravity and breastfeeding on their visual cortex.
Absent from Tom’s description, but assumed in many of the comments, was any evidence that Mr. Wonderful was so fixated on his breast lust that he no longer found any other part of his wife attractive, physical or otherwise. There was no indication that when the breasts sagged, he ceased wanting or having any physical intimacy with his wife, but several commenters scolded him for not shifting his desires to other parts, implicitly assuming that once a breast man, only a breast man. There was no elaboration of whether Mr. Wonderful’s wife also considered her tits ruined, and perhaps out of self-consciousness, no longer let him enjoy them like he used to. There was a whole lot of missing information, some of which may have made the husband more sympathetic, and some which would confirm everyone’s worst suspicions, but what I found depressing was that among the women, this passing statement about lust from one male friend to another was reflexively judged in the worst possible light.
The subheading to Tom’s piece was, “Tom Matlack wonders what would happen if men were allowed to be open about their lust.” In my recent article, “From Librarian to Eye Candy in 20 Seconds”, and it’s follow-up, I took quite a bit of heat for being open about some lust I barely expressed as a single man, getting criticized for objectifying women and having it suggested I should learn to care about other things besides appearance first—even though I hadn’t done anything. Now I’m on the married side, to a woman I only knew through written words for almost a year before we met in person. We’ve had kids, and I still love her and lust after her, but her body, alas, shows some of the hallmark signs of age and motherhood. I can easily imagine myself saying to a friend, “Motherhood has not helped her tits.” If I go by the reaction to Mr. Wonderful, that would be enough to make me a selfish, disrespectful horndog of a man, even without the secret porn and strip clubs.
The answer to Tom’s wondering about the consequences of men being open about their lust appears to be that it will be characterized as selfish and hurtful, whether you’re single or married, and whether you keep it to yourself or do something with it. Lip service is paid to the importance of open communication and how sexuality is a beautiful thing, but the dominant message in comments is: Don’t! Don’t lust. It’s yucky. It’s shallow. If you have to lust, keep it to yourself. Lust for your wife is almost okay, but it’s not allowed to change, and don’t tell her if it does. Don’t tell your friends if it does. And whatever you do, don’t tell Tom about it, because that dude will tell everybody.
—Photo sh1mmer/Flickr
About Marcus Williams
Oh god… Oh god… trying to restrain myself here… Must not…. Ahhhhhh! Ahhhh…..!
TOGTFO!!!!!
No, not really. Seriously. The title was just way too good a straight line to pass up.
Perhaps these wives should have wasted their youth and bodies carrying children for a man that appreciates it. There is often little we as women can do about the changes that childbirth brings about. Most of us are already painfully aware of it and strive to make the best of it after the damage has been done. To hear the man you chose to spend the rest of your life with is more concerned with the state of your breasts post-pregnancy almost makes the entire marriage a farce. You do, through marriage, pledge to honor and respect that person. By turning your lust on others because of life changes you both go through is unfair and not honoring or respecting. In the same breath, maybe she doesn’t like your potbelly, your saggy junk, or receding hair line. We are all people. We all age. Perhaps you should not marry if you truly didn’t want to grow old with someone. I notice so often that beauty seems to be a requirement for women, but men are often not expected to maintain themselves at all. A lot of the men I have seen (in my day-to-day life) that complain about their wives and use it as an excuse to still be on the prowl have no business being married in the first place. We are all people. We all have things that we like and dislike about the people we are with, but a part of a life-long commitment is being able to stand naked in front of the one you love when you are 60 and still feel that they love, respect, and WANT you. This goes for women and men. And remember, one man’s trash is another man’s treasure. When their partner’s have had enough disrespect, these same men will be crying about their family no longer being there. Love the one you’re with, or they may chose to find love without you.
You’re jumping on these men because they observed something that is simply true: people age, and it doesn’t help in the lusty department. I think it’s dismissive to assume that because we’ve noticed that our partners aren’t the same as they were at 20, that we love them any less. It also denies reality, and reduces sex to a physical act between two bodies with no brains.
I’m in my mid-20s, and I’ve met fifty-five year old women I would sleep with. Not because they have the bodies of teenagers, but because they had a fantastic personality, were fun and engaging, and carried themselves with confidence. If it were purely about their bodies, I’d pass. But be honest with yourself, if you were a woman in your mid-20s and reasonably attractive, would you sex up a man twice your age for his body? Probably not.
Not all men think this way, but odds are the men that troll for younger women, go to strip clubs to compensate for their aging wives behind their backs, and otherwise view all relationships through the tint of fucking instead of sex aren’t reading this blog. Why do you default to this caricature of “men as lusting predators” instead of accepting that the person who is being discussed is probably a complex human being, with elaborate personality and feelings, who has been summarized for his observation that age has a way of taking a beating to our bodies?
It’s not the “observation” that has been judged as a problem by the majority of us. It’s the disrespect he showed his wife as a result – and I think that most women’s experience is that this type of disrespect is all too common. Many men DO stop loving their partners as they get older and lose sex appeal, or at the very least start treating their partners with extreme disrespect. Honestly, if that wasn’t happening at an alarming rate, no one would be complaining about it. I’ve certainly seen older couples make affectionate jokes about each other’s sagging boobs and bellies, flabby arms, etc. and it’s obvious how much they still care about each other. And an ex boyfriend and I used to turn the TV on and play a game of “Who Would You Do?” where we’d compare hotness of people of the opposite sex and whether we would jump on them if we were single.
When you’re not in a position where you feel threatened, it’s fine. We all know that certain body types and body parts turn us on, and it’s no big deal. But too many women do feel threatened, and for good reason. Most of us have either had this kind of thing happen to them or know one or more people it’s happened to, even if the husbands otherwise seemed like good guys who would know better. And even here on GMP, a good many of the men have been defensive of that guy’s behavior, asking what’s wrong with him thinking what he’s thinking.
Women divorce their husbands 2-3 more frequently than men divorce their wives. So, again, this cuts both ways.
Eric,
My personal heroes are some friends of mine who were married for 60 years before the wife, sadly, passed away a few months ago at 83. They were clearly the light of each other’s lives, and pretty much inseparable, taking classes and going on camping trips together well into their 70s. If you talked to either of them alone, as they got older, their only wish was to outlive the other so that they could be there at the end to care for the other. When the wife became ill with a degenerative disease and her health began to deteriorate, her husband wrote, “I realize now that the rest of our life together will be the ‘in sickness’ part of our wedding vows.’” He cared for her every day until the end, even though he himself was 89 and hardly in any shape to be taking this on.
I often used to ask them about their marriage “secrets,” and they were quite frank and happy to talk about it. When they were young and during their child rearing years, things were very difficult. They weren’t always the happy couple they became later, and the husband freely admits that his communication skills were not very good, which would often make his wife miserable as she had no idea what would make him happy or what was bothering him. I won’t get into a lot of graphic detail, but let’s just say the problems they were having were not unlike the problems a lot of couples go through that lead to divorce nowadays.
But, as the husband said, “Divorce was simply not an option for us. And neither was making each other miserable.“ It’s that last part that is the key missing ingredient. It’s all well and good to say you believe in marriage and will not get a divorce, but if your only options are divorce vs. being miserable, many people nowadays prefer divorce. Because let’s face it – a lot of women used to stay married purely for religious and/or economic reasons, despite being ignored and degraded. That was simply the social structure at the time. Good men like my friend who actually recognized his role in this and did something about it (namely, they went to a Marriage Encounter workshop and learned to communicate better and explored the things about each other that were making each other unhappy) were quite rare. Both parties, in this case, were willing to do what it took to honor their vows (which include love, honor and respect, not just sex and not cheating) and take being a loving partner seriously.
I would have thought this would be easier and more obvious in later generations. And sometimes it is. I do know couples now that are each other’s best friends and take responsibility not only for staying together but for each other’s happiness. But all too often I see what basically seems to me like we’ve gotten nowhere, except that nearly everyone is getting more sex, and is much more focused on sex and appearances. And women, even if they enjoy sex and have no shame about it, are still expected to bear the brunt of men’s sexual aggression (even if it’s passive aggression/entitlement like Tom’s friend).
In other words, there are all too many women who feel they are holding up their end of the bargain and being loving, caring partners and it is not getting reciprocated. Their man is ignoring them or acting irritated, going off with his buddies and looking at hot women. Or watching Internet porn and cybersexing. This makes the wife feel more threatened and she starts investing more and more time and energy into making herself beautiful to compete with all these hotter women that he’s paying attention to instead of her. And any attempt to talk to the man about it is met with a stone wall, or anger. Needless to say this doesn’t make a woman feel very sexually desirable either, and after awhile they act out their feelings in the only way they know how, by withholding sex. Which of course just makes the man more frustrated and resentful, so he increases the porn usage and maybe starts looking around for someone to cheat with… and there you have it. A recipe for another divorce. It’s probably the woman who will leave because 1) the man doesn’t want to deal with alimony settlements (which is the same reason women didn’t used to leave men, they depended on the man’s income) and 2) if the man is cheating and not pestering the wife for sex, this seems on the surface to make things better at home and he is able to tolerate the situation, whereas the wife has still not had her needs addressed and is still miserable – just silent about it by this time.
This is obviously a stereotype scenario but it (or some subtler variation of it) happens often enough to be alarming. Anybody with a fairly large social circle like myself probably knows at least one couple, if not quite a few, who has played out some variation on this theme.
This is not to say that there aren’t any shallow, fucked up women who get a divorce just because they’re bored or whatever. Keep in mind that most of my friends and co-workers are men, so I’ve heard the male point of view in most of these stories and am more inclined than most women to be sympathetic to it. And yes, I know men who’ve been dumped for no good reason that I can see, slapped with fake domestic violence charges, prevented from seeing their kids, and all sorts of horror stories that I know you guys have discussed on here. Don’t get me wrong – I get that.
I’m just saying that I also know quite a few couples who are happy, and in none of those cases are the men behaving like the guy in Tom’s story. I don’t doubt that my good male friends experience some of the same feelings – dismay when their wives get older, lusting after more attractive women, etc. – but they aren’t out in public ogling other women and telling their buddies their wives’ tits are ruined. They aren’t at home watching porn and chatting up other women on the Internet. They don’t think they’re entitled to hot breasts for the rest of their lives. They aren’t asking their wives to get plastic surgery or go on impossible diets. They seem to be accepting of their own and their wives’ aging as just part of the deal. If they see another woman who is very attractive, they might stare for a little while and go “Wooo!!” and perhaps give a wink or catch her eye as if to say “Yeah, I’ve still got it.” And his wife, if she were there, would just laugh. It’s a vibe, and it’s very easy to discern the guys who are doing this in a harmless way vs. a threatening way, appreciative vs. fixated.
Most people would rather have a chance to be loved for who they are, or even just not be reminded on a daily basis how unloved they are, as opposed to trapped in a miserable marriage where there is no chance that will happen. That is why there are so many women now getting out of such marriages – because they can. Wouldn’t you? If you were stuck in a situation where you’re disrespected and ignored and your wife would not discuss it with you or tells you you’re over-reacting any time you tried to talk to her about it, and went around telling her girlfriends how tiny your dick is and how much she’d like to screw the 19 year old landscape guy, how long would you put up with that if you had any choice?
Probably all long time married people have, at one time or other, been miserable. The key is to be willing to tough out the misery and come out better, stronger, and closer on the other side. The easy way out is to divorce, blaming the other.
The problem there is that the complaintant is usually so determined that the problems are ALL their mates fault that they don’t bother to look in the mirror. It’s almost never 100% her fault, 0% his, but the main complaintant will usually imagine it that way, and stops trying to analyze how they can do better.
Yeah, I agree. I don’t think either men or women have very good role models anymore in that respect. They go through a period of misery and presume it’s never going to end, and that they’re entitled to have their problem remedied, NOW.
Which is pretty much the complaint with the guy whose wife’s tits have changed.
I really hope the GMP comes out with articles discussing solutions to the issues LF described. Some women try very, very hard and it seems to never be enough.
“I think it’s dismissive to assume that because we’ve noticed that our partners aren’t the same as they were at 20, that we love them any less.”
In the case of Mr. Wonderful, he was doing something that he knew would really hurt his wife if he found out. To me, that does suggest that he loves her less. I think that love is based on respect and hurting someone like that is not respectful.
Can you acknowledge that someone is not as attractive as they once were and still love them? Of course.
Can you lie to someone, insult them to your friends, do things that would hurt them, and still love them? Who cares? That’s no kind of love I’d want.
Bingo.
I think men have a different view of love. To them love is mostly about showing up. He probably thinks as long as he comes home to his wife everything is A OK. I known men like that. “I wont stop my porn/whoremongering/strip club habit, but I love you and that’s what matters.”
“I think men have a different view of love.”
That almost sounds like a generalization, as if the commenter personally knows every man alive.
Yup… exactly. And if you don’t want to marry because you don’t want to grow old with someone, then you have to be prepared to be alone when you’re old, and not count on being able to find some young girl who wants to be with an old guy. Unless you’re rich, of course.
Oh that last line was gold. I like your writing style, even if I disagree with you.
I was one of the commenters that didn’t like that first paragraph. I commented so much that Tom asked me to write for GMP! How’s that for fun! My first post was about desire
The dishonesty the friend was engaging in irritated me. I guess both parties have to deal with bodies changing as we age yes? Fatherhood doesn’t always do so well for men, either.
Honesty is important. So is tact.
I’m so very tired tonight and I’ll probably mangle this if I write any more, but I do want to say more tomorrow.
I did really like that last line
That was pretty dang funny, Marcus. Congratulations!
Gah! “Even if I disagree with you at times.” Sleeping now.
Keep things in context. Are you objectifying or are you admiring? Lusting or desiring? Know the difference. Also, understand that everything changes in life, esp the human body and will continue to until you pass away. Except it for what it is because more than likely, your wife has noticed some changes in you as well.
OK, Terry. So what is the difference?
I wasn’t done editing my comment before I hit send, drat!
But the final point I was trying to shoehorn in there was that we live in a culture where women’s bodies are everywhere, that gets men’s views of what “beauty” is extremely distorted. Also, it distorts women’s views. And the sad result is that one of the most beautiful things that can happen to a women’s body – the miracle of birth and breastfeeding another human being – causes many women to be very insecure about their worth. Our job as men and husbands and partners (and, don’t forget, Fathers) is to continually counter the culture’s message about worth, value and beauty for the women in our lives.
Thank you for this.
Wasn’t there an article a while back on this site asking why women got breast implants.
I think this article answers that question.
Lol. you’re so right.
Exactly. Many people villify women for focusing on their appearance…and for engaging in beauty associated behaviors…when the truth is – every woman alive today has received the social message that her REAL value as a person is based on how she looks.
I think everyone is going to find someone other than their SO physically attractive. I think it’s more the fixation that make men come across as yucky. About the husband who said his wife’s tits are ruined-I wonder how his body is holding up! Honestly, I think just the fact of a woman having a baby can really turn off a man. I think there’s also the chance that he was making rationalizations. Kids can be stressful, and more and more men turn to porn and what have you when they feel the heat.
I see where the article is coming from. I know men lust after most anything on two legs 24/7, but I dont always want to hear about it. I wonder how men would respond if women were open about lusting after hot, chiseled young bodies???
Yes I love hot fresh, chiseled young bodies! Taylor Lautner for example, he’s much too young though…but I can lust can’t I? Just imagining his body makes me feel frisky and wanna sink my vampire teeth into his flesh
Isn’t lust the equivalent of a CRAVING? If too much of a good thing is bad for us, then should we not let it subside or be able to control our cravings/lust? If all of us gave in to all our food cravings, we’d all be morbidly obese! Then could the same reasoning apply to lust: If we all gave in to our lust, we’d be all hyper-sexual or addicted to sex/beauty. With all things, there should be a balance or done in moderation right?
I think most women understand and follow the concept of moderation/balance compared to men; so that’s why there is such a divide/difference between genders on how we think and behave when it comes to lust and sex.
Yes. We all have feelings of lust, sometimes very strong ones, but we hopefully don’t let them dictate important life decisions, including how we treat those we supposedly love.
You are so right. Women tend to have more tactic. I sometimes want to scream out- WE HAVE EYEBALLS, too. We notice attractive men and their physiques. Women have kind of been trained to think that it doesn’t matter what a man looks like- but it does matter!!! I’m tired of the double standard. I want men to know that we look at men just as they look at women- but we aren’t so obvious about it, we don’t brag about, and we appreciate them for them at all stages of their lives- beer gut, saggie balls, and all.
This is incredibly true. In my experience, we don’t voice it out loud in public. We often talk about the hot guys in private, whereas guys will openly stare at hot girls in public and make rude/obnoxious comments with their friends, whether or not there is a female present in that group.
The fact that the husband used “ruined” is what makes him a bad man in my book. Ruined is a derogatory term, an insult not only to his wife but to his child as well, as though he is implying that child ruined its mother’s breasts, breasts, which of course, have their primary function used for breast feeding and not men’s pleasure. IMO, he should find his wife’s breasts all the more beautiful simply because they look the way they do through that nice little miracle called childbirth–not necessarily physically beautiful, but beautiful on another level. Plus, the fact that he feels entitled to nice breasts makes him a bad man in my book too. FYI, women’s breasts are not there for male pleasure. Their primary function is breast feeding, and our culture tends to forget that among all the objectifying of women’s breasts.
In all fairness – can men help the fact that perky skyward pointing tits turn them on? i mean really…how the heck can they change what they find repulsive and what they find attractive.
How can anyone look at someone else and declare “You SHOULD find xyz attractive and sexually arousing” ???
Like I implied, beauty is not necessarily physical. He should find his wife’s breasts more beautiful in a way that transcends beyond the physical. I don’t find stretch marks physically appealing, but I do find them beautiful in that those stretch marks are there because a loving mother bore her child for nine months, and those stretch marks represent what the mother went through to bring that child into the world. That is a type of beauty to me that transcends beyond the physical, and it’s a shame this husband seems too shallow to see that in his wife’s breasts.
I’m with you on the stretch marks piece. However, the relatively rare woman is really unfortunate in that breast feeding shrivels their breasts up like an orange that’s been squeezed dry. Breast lift procedures are entirely reasonable in such cases, IMO.
I suppose if she wants a breast lift procedure then that’s completely her call, but it’s just my opinion that a husband shouldn’t expect a wife to get one if her breasts happen to sag due to any bodily changes. I mean, that’s a rather big and often painful procedure to get, all just for vanity’s sake. I wouldn’t expect my fiance to get a testicle lift (if such a procedure were to ever exist) just to make his testicles look less saggy, wrinkly, or whatever. I mean, that’s a bit much to ask from a person to practically alter a body part that’s been changed due to something completely natural. Not to mention such procedures are expensive and often meaningless in the end. No amount of surgery can alter what nature inevitably does to you–and oftentimes this surgery can make you age even worse.
Yeah, agreed! Plus there are often other health side effects from having this type of procedure. I mean, really? Expecting your wife to have a breast lift or risk losing you? Seriously?
Or risking infection or chronic pain or the myriad of other side effects that don’t seem worth it.
I agree.
Looks like this lust thing is a little one sided. Women’s breasts need to be as hot as they were as teenagers. But what of the husband who once had an attractive body himself who lets himself go? I wonder if this fellow who found his wife’s breasts deteriorated after childbirth, had as hot a body himself after years of marriage. Could it be that he is no longer desirable to her? But who cares? Unfortunately we women are sometimes expected to overlook a man’s lack of physical desirability, and forego our lustful dreams in favor storybook romance. After all it is not ladylike for a woman to be visual.
I wonder how long it will take for women to accept that complaining about men’s sexual desires won’t change them? They seem to be fighting that realization every step of the way, but it’s a losing battle.
Hopefully as men become more aware of the misandry in our culture, fewer and fewer will put up with this sort of demonization in exchange for the ‘privilege’ of being in a relationship. MGTOW for the win, again.
So you’re saying it’s perfectly okay for the husband to talk about his wife in such a derogatory way, then go right behind her back to appease his self-entitlement to breasts through strip clubs and porn while claiming the other alternative would be to have an affair with a teenager? If this is how men actually are, then I can see why society puts them in such a bad light.
Amber, I agree that the use of the word ‘ruined’ was definitely harsh. I’m all for honesty within relationships, but going behind your wife’s back and saying that isn’t honest and it’s quite mean (especially if the guy he told was someone the wife knew, thus embarrassing her). I would think there would be a better word to use. Copyleft: Too many women say, “all men are awful because this guy was an asshole to me” and too many men say, “all women are bitches because this woman found me unattractive.” Misandry is around, but so is misogyny. Going around blaming the entirety of the other sex for our own feelings of inadequacy can’t possibly solve anything.
True, Aya. But it’s still a very popular (and profitable) activity in some feminist circles. Fortunately, we can call out such silliness on BOTH sides here in this forum.
What?? It isn’t that lusting for beautiful breasts is the problem. It’s the truly disrespectful talking about his wife, the lying, and the hiding. A great many of us lust after hot firm young people, men and women both. That’s not the issue. Treating your spouse like they are “ruined” is the issue.
Lust and desire are good things. Being crappy about someone you supposedly love is not.
Copyleft,
Men will never stop “needing” women. Men crave sex & women control men’s access to sex.
So go ahead and develop your pot belly, balding head, and bad breath – but you’d better have money or your access to vag will dry up LOL!
The process of agind is a losing battle for everyone (male & female) in a youth obsessed and beauty focused society. Unless – you are a male WITH lots of money.
That’s a sad comment on humanity. I think there are other ways.
I see a better possibility: Men not accepting women’s control over access to sex. Thus, we have prostitution, PUAs, escorts, and good ol’ porn… all of which are hated with astounding ferocity by radical feminists. Coincidence? I doubt it.
There have always been prostitutes, way before feminists came along. Seducing women is also not exactly a new thing.
Right. And there have been serial dating and mating, cheating, affairs, and sexytime drawings since the beginning. As many ways to date and mate as there have been societies and cultures. This is just one more form of the same old, only with everyone really angry at each other and the internet only makes it worse I’d say.
So Copyleft, rad fems say men want control over women’s bodies. MRA’s say women control their access to sex and want control over men’s money. Which is it? Is that what you really think?
I see a lot of people in the world who want decent relationships, good jobs and healthy kids. Odd isn’t it, how there are actual people who want…love. And sex. And jobs.
Sometimes I worry that the internet is just a series of echo chambers.
Is it really all about control and dominance? What about actual intellect?
You simply cited more ways women have control men’s access to sex LOL!
Prostitute: You still have to PAY TO BE WITH A WOMAN. Still a relationship where your behavior is judged and you are rewarded or turned away by the one holding the pussy.
Porn: See the above
Escorts: See the above
…unless you’re saying that porn bunnies, hookers, & escorts aren’t WOMEN
I’ll bet you really hate women now huh?
LOL!
Rewarded or turned away? Nope. All that is taken care of with cash up front, LOLing. It becomes a business transaction rather than an a futile attempt to earn “approval.”
And of course I don’t hate women–I just laugh at radical feminists for their silly tantrums and hopelessly irrational attempts to control and define men on THEIR terms, all the while complaining that women need to be accepted “just as they are.”
I think the term “radical feminist” is ignorantly thrown around a lot. Asking for respect is being a radical feminist? This is what we women are simply asking for by commenting on this article, and you dare to call us radical feminists. It seems in your terms men are just being men by lambasting women, but women are radical feminists when lambasting men.
And it’s a business transaction, but that said prostitute can still turn you away. She is not obligated to take your money, and if she is, then clearly she is under the jurisdiction of an abusive pimp, but a man like you would never consider that the prostitute you buy could be doing it against her will.
What about men controlling women’s access to love? And someone to grow old with? One can’t buy those at any price. And somehow I don’t think women are the only ones who want that.
Sigh….Copyleft, if only the lot of you actually *were* going your own way, it would be society for the win…….
Children aren’t important to to me. My partner wants them at some point. He’s one of those guys who mentions how adorable I’d be pregnant and always talks about how beautiful my body is. Yet, the knowledge that he might not look at my body the same way afterwards is a part of why I don’t want to bother with it (the much bigger part being the cost and responsibility of raising kids, which doesn’t seem very worth it these days). If it seemed to me like he’d lose interest in my body after kids, they’d be absolutely off the table. If my tits got messed up, I would absolutely spring for breast implants (even though he is, in principle, against them). I realize that’s shallow on my part, but most people want to be desirable. Most people want to have good sex and be groped by their lovers as long as possible.
About the strip clubs, I always say, if you’re allowed to go to a strip club and get lap dances that turn you on, I’m allowed to go and give lap dances to guys I find attractive (by the time I’m too old to do it, I hope there’ll be more non-cheesy strip clubs marketed towards women). I absolutely understand that you’re lusting over other women, just understand that I’m also lusting after the bartender who gave me eyes, the rapper who takes his shirt off and wears his pants really low, the young goofy frat boy always showing off, etc… I also like getting turned on and appreciating beauty.
Good for you, Aya. Always nice to see someone with a fair and healthy attitude.
A healthy attitude? It is not healthy to worry that her husband would find her undesirable after childbirth.
For sure. And saying she’d go so far as to get breast implants if childbirth affected her boobs… wow.
Aya, please do not deny yourself the most wonderful experience a person can have because you fear losing your desirability. Not having children because of finances, lifestyle etc… is understandable, but for the reason of remaining desirable to a man just isn’t good enough. If his desire for you is so subject to qualifiers, and so paper thin, that if you should become less than perfect, he will stray, he aint worth being with. I can assure you, if he is this type of man, you will see evidence of this attitude in subtle ways. However, it sounds to me as if this fear is largely in your own mind and not his. Seems like the qualifiers, and paper thin confidence might in your own heart.
Out of all the emotional experiences I have ever had, motherhood has no substitute. If the day should come for you that motherhood is something that has become desirable, you will breathe a sigh of relief that you did not let this fear of yours rule the day.
Aya, is becoming less and less desireable with every passing minute. She’s aging!
This has been a very productive discussion. Fathers have been told how to feel about the mothers of their children, and women have been told how to feel about motherhood.
What I’m hearing from natureartist is that becoming a mother will make all these earlier concerns fall away. Perhaps becoming a mother will even outweigh the pain of discovering that you’re married to a scumbag. I mean, if motherhood is the magic pill for happiness, then in the grand scheme of things Mr. Wonderful’s wife has every reason to rejoice at her good fortune, right?
I’m just finding it hard to swallow the pronatalist argument here. I would never presume to tell someone that her fears of motherhood are out of perspective or presume to tell someone how she’ll feel once she gives birth. I would never assume that someone would become a parent and then have no regrets about it. If I were so bold as to make predictions about what a woman would feel like becoming a mother for the first time, I would have to assume that my predictions could be wrong.
Women come to their own conclusions about the plus and minus of becoming a mother. (Even those who don’t give it much thought come to their own conclusions, I suppose.)
I can easily imagine myself saying to a friend, “Motherhood has not helped her tits.”
Seriously, you think trashing your wife to your friends makes someone a wonderful husband??!
Admiring breasts is a totally seperate issue to talking shit about the person you love. We all get older, we all change and would it be ok if your wife could imagine herself easily saying to her mates “well, time hasn’t done his dick much good”. I’m sure you’d appreciate that a lot.
If you claim “sex is beautiful” then you should act like. Your comments are both selfish and hurtful. We all lust, I’m pretty sure all the ladies would agree on this too. Finding other humans attractive is perfectly natural and doesn’t make you an ass. But talking about the person you’re meant to love and care about the most, who has gone theough those changes for BOTH of you, does make you an ass.
As humans we clearly need to be realistic about nature and our bodies. It’s inevitable for us all….including you. Of course we find other humans attractive but we don’t need to act like dicks about it all. Turn it around. See how much you would like it…
P.S…its exactly for reasons and comments like this that women spend so much time from the minute we get them, stressing and worrying over our breasts (udders!). Why women resort, in their millions, to sticking potentially harmful balls of chemicals in their chest. Nasty, derogatory comments are thrown around about womens natural bodies, by both men and women. It is harmful and would never be ‘tolerated’ if it were the other way around.
“Admiring breasts is a totally seperate issue to talking shit about the person you love.”
VERY good point. It doesn’t at all make you a ‘bad man’ to admire breasts (even if they’re not your partner’s)–it means you’re human. It makes you a ‘bad man’ to talk shit about someone you love and to think you deserve a pat on the back for not having an affair with a teenager.
Yea!
“Good men” project??!
“Good men project”?
Yes… where we, the men, define what “good” means.
I recall that the question was raised in Marcus’ earlier article: “So if he doesn’t find his wife’s breasts attractive any more, what SHOULD he do?” And as Marcus noted here, the overwhelming response was basically, “He shouldn’t feel that way in the first place!”
No one’s endorsing cheating OR lying to a spouse. So tell us: what options are available to the husband, other than “shut up and appreciate/worship your wife for how amazing she is”?
If you are no longer attracted to someone, why be with them?
Because of the friendship and relationship you’ve built with them, because of the children you’ve had with them, because of the commitment you made when marrying them.
Losing your sexual attraction to a partner does not invalidate any relationship, nor does it seem to me a reasonable excuse to end one, especially one as significant as a marriage.
So if you were no longer sexually attracted to your wife, you’d stay with her and not cheat on her? How would you deal with your desire for sex? It’s not like that would just go away.
Mind you, I agree with you. But I’m just curious as to your answer.
You tell us, Copyleft. What could possibly be a decent outcome of such a situation? You recommend getting it out in the open and discussing it. But there’s nothing the wife can do about her breasts, is there? Besides having surgery? What if she doesn’t want surgery (and who could blame her if she doesn’t)?
What good could come out of having such a discussion? What options are there? The only thing I can think of is that sometimes people project non-physical issues onto the physical – that is, maybe there are other issues in the marriage like the man feeling abandoned by his wife after childbirth, disliking the fact that her boobs don’t just belong to him anymore. Is this something you’d be willing to explore? Go to counseling or whatever it took to root that out?
EXACTLY. Why is this so hard for people to understand? I think some people are in denial about this. Sexual desire is not the problem – using sexual desire as an excuse to throw basic kindness out the window is the problem.
I’m with Jill…if you no longer are at all sexually attracted to your partner, you owe it to her to either end the relationship, or work out ways to spice up your sex life. Otherwise, be kind and let her find someone who DOES get turned on by her, can love her for who she is, or just let her sleep around and satisfy her own sexual needs too. Also, I’m with LF–no longer sexually desiring someone is no excuse to talk shit about them.
By your logic women who lose sexual desire for their partners and fake a headache to get out of it (my apologies for THE most cliche excuse) should allow their partners to cheat.
Ending a relationship due to waning sexual desire seems to me the definition of shallow.
Do you want to stay in a relationship with a woman who thinks your
body is repulsive?
If the woman doesn’t want to work at the problem (therapy, spicing things up, making time for sex) instead of faking headaches, then there is a definitely an issue. She should either let him cheat (or watch porn, go to strip clubs, whatever the agree on), or let him move on to someone who is sexually interested in him. He should let her do the same if he’s not willing to work at the sex life. Sometimes cheating can save a relationship, but it can also be extremely dangerous.
Right, there seems to be some willful blindness out there. Lust is fine. Being an a-hole about your used up partner (male or female) is not fine. Getting hot for that cute grocery clerk/fireman/etc is fine. Believing you’ll cheat with a teen is maybe not so fine. Finding ways to incorporate sexual imagery, play, fantasy into your sex life is fine. Heck, non-monogamy is fine with me so long as it’s even-steven, lying and being a jerk to your partner….NOT FINE.
Lust is not the problem here.
sara,
You’ve nailed the sentiments of most if not all women on this discussion.
I am one of those who commented on Tom’s article. I believe I said that if Mr. Wonderful is that disgusted by his ruined tits, he should do her a favor and get a divorce. I stand by that statement. I think what offended me was not that Mr W. feels that his wife’s breasts were less attractive than they used to be (I’m sure she would agree) but that he would express it in such a derogatory way to a friend (calling them “ruined tits”) AND that he would use it as an extremely lame excuse for why he MUST to go to strip clubs. I was also offended that Tom would be so sympathetic to that point of view, and even turn it around and blame it on some kind of social repression of male lust (huh?)
One of the worst fears that women have to deal with is our knowledge that male lust is dependent on our youth and beauty, and our knowledge that we will eventually lose both, if not today, then tomorrow. When choosing a life partner, we hope against hope that this is a man who will love and cherish us and even maybe still be able to us sexy as time and childbirth takes its inevitable toll. The idea that the man we love, whose children we bore and nurtured with our bodies (at great physical cost), can so callously dismiss our “ruined tits” is devastating. Who wants to stay in a relationship with that kind of man? Again, I’m not condemning his feelings, which he can’t help, but his choice of words and his behavior. I’m sure his wife knows her breasts don’t look as good as they used to, and she may feel awful about it already. He should at least have some compassion for that. If he were my husband, and that’s how he really feels, I’d say let him see the kids on the weekend. I don’t need a man that badly to stay with a man who thinks I’m “ruined.”
Hear, hear. Well said.
Exactly. I am so glad my parents are still together after thirty something years of marriage, through the good and bad. It’s a marriage like theirs that keeps me holding on to that faint glimmer of hope that there is some inherent goodnes and common sense in men.
There are plenty of men with goodness and common sense. But those who don’t have it sure do like to use “but that’s just the way men are” as an excuse for their shitty behavior.
Very true. People always try to frame problems as universal human problems, rather than just their problem.
And if copyleft disagrees with this and says “this is just how men are,” then I am officially going to become an unapologetic misandrist.
You already are, Sarah. This is not the Men Should Shut Up Project, and you cannot control the conversation and steer it along feminist-acceptable lines. This is where men discuss men’s issues; radical-feminist approval is neither sought nor needed.
Ditto.
“I can’t believe that any of the women criticizing Mr. Wonderful would suggest that his wife’s breasts were just as amazing to look at after motherhood as before, but they seem to be saying he’s a lout for not thinking exactly that, as if there’s a magic switch husbands can toggle to cancel out the effects of gravity and breastfeeding on their visual cortex.”
But didn’t you read Schwyzer’s article from months ago?
http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/older-guys-lust-young-women/
There can be no “negative impact on physical beauty” because there’s no such thing as objective physical beauty or objective sexual attractiveness. All things physically and sexually attractive are socially and culturally created. So the proper answer is for this person to psychologically indoctrinate and modify himself until he thinks everyone and everything is equally sexually attractive.
Bravo Marcus!!
As a woman who has endured motherhood and some aging, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Tits get ruined, hair falls out, asses droop, new breasts emerge, dentures, eyesight, wrinkles, beer bellies, soft erections….and then you shrivel and die.
Well, what can I even add here? Yes, the last sentence is drop-dead hilarious, but the whole thing does make me sad. My breasts sagged after nursing my first husband’s child, and he is gone now, way off in midlife crisis land, and happily remarried to a much younger woman. My new husband was never married before, has no children of his own, and before me, generally dated women who did not have children but did have firm breasts. You know what? He is not a shallow man, and he exemplifies the saying, “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.” Although it is hard for me to let in, he tells me my breasts are beautiful. And I believe he really thinks that. Call it love goggles or whatever, but some men are not confined by the media’s depiction of what is attractive. Some of them decide for themselves, and even if you have flaws, they know they do too, and they help you live with your own. I think *that* is beautiful.
Glad your husband finds you beautiful, Lori. I’m happy for you!
The man cited in the article doesn’t, though. And curiously, the consensus from the women on this thread seems to be that he shouldn’t cheat on her–he should DUMP her.
I know. I’ve thought a lot about this. I think women have SO MUCH frustration over being judged on their looks, not just by society but by their own husbands, especially as they hit middle age. There is indignation that the beauty trap is there for women, cradle to grave. No woman can keep up. And we get disgusted at these kinds of stories. Middle aged men are often bald, have a spare tire, etc. And yet, they want their wives to have firm breasts. It’s hypocritical, don’t you think? I don’t know what the real answer is as to what should happen in the anecdote originally relayed by Tom Matlack. How about that the man not cheat OR dump her? How about couples therapy? Anything??? Is there ANY way at all that a man can come to be ok with his wife’s body the way it is? Is that too much to hope for?
Yeah, that is the question exactly. I can’t imagine being SO sexually turned off by a guy that I love just because he gets older and even if he can’t get it up anymore.
What’s your solution Copyleft? My thought is that if he loves her and finds other aspects of her beautiful, he should a) focus on that and b) quit acting callous about her body to his friends/quit lying to her and c) maybe find some other way to explore fantasy with her. And listen to her to see if his body needs work, and encourage her to explore her fantasies about sexy body parts.
But do you have another suggestion, CL? Or do you think the man’s attitude was right on the money for how he should behave? I’ve commented at you several times here, and I really am curious as to what he should do, in your opinion.
Is it hard to have those conversations with your spouse? About your desire? Yes, in both directions. But is it better than lying and using family funds in your lying (in the strip clubs), yes i think it is. Just like if she was spending money without his knowledge on something that wouldn’t be cool.
And yes, if a couple truly isn’t sexually or emotionally compatible, divorce is and should be an option for either member of the couple.
Lust isn’t the problem, CopyLeft, it’s the meanspiritedness.
He should man up and love and respect his wife no matter what, and appreciate her sacrifice. She could have refused to breast feed their kids to protect her breast, as some mothers have done. He should love her for her that even more. That’s part of being married.
Strip clubs are dumb. Nobody should go to them, especially married people.
What should he do? He should love her enough to talk to her. She knows her breasts aren’t the same. She probably feels bad about it, and needs his reassurance.
She might want a lift procedure but doesn’t want to draw attention to the issue. If so, he can support her through that and it could make them both feel better. If not, appreciate her other attributes. Women are wonderful all around, not just their breasts.
That’s a great answer.
See, Eric, this post is clearly contradictory with your other post below about how you made sure to marry a woman whose breasts you thought would stay perfect as she aged. This really is a bizarre contradiction with a lot of men.
Seriously. He seems to condone cheating but condemns strip clubs? I would say the former is FAR worse.
For sure.
I mean I don’t want to pin you in a corner, Eric, because at least you’re reasonable to argue with, but I would really pay attention in the future to what I wrote so as not to sound contradictory.
See my comment below. No contradiction whatsoever.
“I don’t endorse conspiring to sneak around.”
That was the first sentence of the first comment I made on this issue. Written in very plain English.
What’s wrong with hedging your bets? There is nothing contradictory in Eric’s comments.
Not at all. You obviously don’t understand one or both comments.
The question was what should HE do? I planned to not be in that situation. However, should my wife need a double mastectomy, she wouldn’t have the incredible breast I love, but that wouldn’t change my feelings for her or our relationship. My marriage vows go beyond the physical. They include the mental, emotional, and spiritual.
That doesn’t mean she doesn’t have incredible breasts,and that I don’t love looking at them. But she’s far more than that, and so is our relationship.
Well if that is true – that your feelings wouldn’t change even if something were to happen to your wife’s breasts – then that’s all we really needed to know. It seems like it took an awful lot of poking and prodding and rationalizing to get you to say this simple thing. It’s not that anybody begrudges you for finding your wife’s breasts awesome and loving to look at them.
You didn’t ask clearly. Ask me a direct question and I will give you a direct answer or tell you I don’t want to answer.
“He should man up and love and respect his wife no matter what, and appreciate her sacrifice. She could have refused to breast feed their kids to protect her breast, as some mothers have done. He should love her for her that even more. That’s part of being married.”
So he should just make himself be more attracted to her, make himself love her more than he does, make himself appreciate her sacrifice. Any suggestions on how a man wills himself into doing that? And, how does he do that without making her into some sort of asexual martyr goddess that could make his stop thinking of her at all as a sexual being?
I’m just guessing here, but this sounds like a very faith-based approach. I am hoping to hear something more concrete and constructive than “just do it” or “pray about it and it will happen.”
Your questions seem contradictory. Why would anybody make his wife into “some sort of asexual martyr goddess that could make his stop thinking of her at all as a sexual being?” If he thinks of her as a sexual being, then presumably he still finds her sexually attractive on some level, no?
I think if a couple still has love and respect for each other, but their sex life isn’t what it used to be, it can be improved. Couples counseling is a good start.
As much as I appreciate my wife for her physical attributes, to me, marriage is about far more than the physical. Anything could happen to either of us, and it wouldn’t matter in terms of how we feel about each other. For us, extend beyond the physical or even mental to the emotional and even spiritiual.
The commitment we made to each other is a “no matter what” type of commitment. That’s my (our) philosophy on marriage. However, it’s not forced; it’s voluntary. If I didn’t feel that way about her, I wouldn’t have married her. I would have married someone else or stayed single.
Equally important, though, is working to keep those feelings and the relationship strong, which is not dependant on the physical, but that is an aspect that does help to keep it strong. There is quite involved. It’s not just a matter of forcing yourself.
My recommendation, as always, is honesty. If his wife’s body has changed so much that he is not longer sexually attracted to her (or simply not sexually _stimulated_), he needs to tell her. if she considers that mean-spirited and shallow, that’s her call. If she’s unwilling to discuss the situation, maybe they SHOULD break up.
And if, in the course of that discussion, she points out some things about HIM that no longer turn HER on, that’s fine too. Get it out in the open, so you can decide where to go from there.
But “suck it up and deal” is not an option. Clearly, the man CAN’T deal, which is why he’s considering alternatives–including some very poor ones.
See, i have no problem with couples talking to each other about this. And there is no reason that discussion has to be mean spirited. It could be…I really really get sexually stimulated by breasts and this is hard to say and hard to hear but….
The mean spirited part was how he talked to his friend about her. How he actually would consider cheating on her. If a woman came to me and said, God my husband’s X is gross, I think I’d be really appalled at her.
If he can’t deal, and if he won’t talk to her, then maybe that relationship isn’t suitable for either of them is all I’m saying.
Sure, I think couples should talk to each other. No problem. But what could possibly come of it, in this case, that would be positive? Imagine you having this discussion with your wife, and imagine she’s willing to listen and talk about it and be receptive. What would you talk about? Where could the discussion go?
I suppose it could go to all kinds of places, LF. I’d rather know what was turning my partner off, than find out he was cheating on me. I mean, yeah it would hurt to find out that he really didn’t like something about me. But at least it would open the conversation for both of us to say…what would turn us on. Or, why does this hurt, or yet I still love and want to be with you more than cheating on you. It’s not a sin to realize that bodies turn people on. It could go to fantasy, to counseling, to fights, to all kinds of places but I think it would be better than stagnation and lies.
Oh, I do too Julie – don’t get me wrong. Obviously the situation as it stands is no good at all, and I’m all for being honest about it. I’m just asking Copyleft what HE thinks that conversation could look like – how, in his mind, the situation with Tom’s friend and his wife could be resolved in a positive way.
Julie G already covered the options. The conversation could go any number of ways. She could condemn her husband as shallow and selfish; she could reply with her own criticisms of him; she could consider how her body has changed and decide that she wasn’t happy with it either; or she could suggest that he go to strip clubs if he’s that obsessed with perky breasts. She could even break down in tears and file for divorce. Who knows? People are different.
But pretending there’s no issue and going through the motions NEVER works.
I’d rather be dumped than be in a relationship with a man who doesn’t find me sexy. Sex is very important to me. I’m middle aged and my body isn’t perfect – far from it. I have naturally large breasts and I’ve gained and lost weight over the years, and that has taken its toll. I would never expect someone to like my breasts, unless they choose to be in a relationship with me. In which case, I would like to feel loved and sexy. My significant other, who is my age, loves my breasts and that is awesome.
My first boyfriend in college used to make derogatory comments about my weight. I had gained the “freshman fifteen.” I put up with him because I was very insecure at the time and I thought he was right — I was fat. It was am emotionally abusive relationship that left me with a lot of emotional scars. I swore I would never stay with another guy who made me feel bad about myself. It’s not worth it.
This makes me feel sad for women who feel like this, but also frustrated at how impossible it seems to be to discuss this stuff. In the “Eye Candy” thread, several women (including you, Jill, IIRC) seemed to be pleading for men to find sexiness in something other than looks. Here, I and other men have been saying that even when the looks stop being so sexy, that doesn’t mean we think it’s okay to cheat or end relationships, which I would think might be reassuring to those same women who wanted to be valued for more than their looks. Instead, I see comments like the above (which is far from the only one) that if a woman no longer looks sexy to her man, she wants out of the relationship. After being urged to love you for reasons besides your beauty, we’re being castigated for wanting to have anything to do with you when beauty fades. Do you see the contradiction?
Marcus, she didn’t say she wanted out of the relationship if she no longer looks sexy to her man; she says she wants out of a relationship with a man who “doesn’t find me sexy.” Big difference.
At least we HOPE there’s a difference.
Mr. W said – and we don’t know if it was paraphrased by Tom – “Motherhood ruined my wife’s tits.” He did not say, “My wife is no longer sexy to me after motherhood.” It’s the same big difference, right? But Jill’s sentiment that “she’d rather be dumped” is based on men – not just Mr. W, but all of us – meaning all sexiness is gone even when only commenting on one narrow looks-based part. (Two, if you prefer to count each breast individually.)
I need no convincing that his reaction of sneaking around on his wife was bad behavior. In an open enough relationship where maybe they didn’t feel threatened by each other continuing to indulge their visual tastes through other people, I wouldn’t find it objectionable, but that’s not what was described.
I feel like we’re violently agreeing about a lot of this, but can’t see the common ground because we’re so busy being defensive. I and other men have said that *unlike* the character snippet of Mr. W. that we saw, we’re capable of reacting to fading beauty in ways other than sneaking around and cheating, including many of the ways that several women in this thread are urging us to do. That assertion is being ignored or disbelieved, and met with calls to abandon our wives if we’re such a-holes that we don’t find their breasts as sexy as we used to. Ironically, it’s women in this conversation who seem fixated on the “beauty is forever” idea, because they’re the ones saying if a man thinks even one aspect of his wife’s beauty slips – her breasts, for example – he should dump her so she can go find someone else who thinks she’s beautiful. Screw the kids, history, other sexy things, or whatever – what matters most is that the woman feel sexy at all times.
Baldness and pot bellies keep being brought up as counterexamples of how men *should* handle fading beauty with grace and compassion, but I’m not calling for women to dump their bald, pot-bellied saggy scrotum men so they can find women who appreciate their “real” handsomeness. If you’re convinced that every man only loves you for your looks, how in the world could you tell if you’d met a counterexample, if you insisted he give you the boot as soon as your looks fade? It’s a good way to confirm your worst fears, but it would be you confirming them, not him.
Marcus, I don’t think any of us have that fear in a vacuum. I certainly don’t – it’s a fear that I developed from my experience and watching other people’s even worse experiences, and I say this as someone who’s been known all my life for being a “male sympathizer.” I did not understand the typical female point of view on this issue until a few years ago, and only when it knocked me in the face so hard on so many fronts that I couldn’t ignore it anymore.
But anyhow… I think the disconnect with Tom’s friend is that it seems obvious he does NOT find his wife sexy anymore since the “loss” of her tits, otherwise he wouldn’t be talking about cheating on her with a teenager or going to strip clubs. And as we’ve said, I also don’t think he’d be talking shit about her to his buddies. There seems to be a deeper disconnect and disrespect going on, which obviously you agree with – and it’s quite possible that it actually has little to do with the wife’s tits, but by being deceptive and assuming it can all be solved with a little titillation, he is cutting off any opportunity to explore other possibilities. Which, unless he wises up, is only going to lead to further erosion of the marriage in other more important ways.
Several of us have suggested the guy get counseling in situations like this. It seems to be ignored.
Marcus, the original post started with a man who thought his wife’s breasts were so ruined that he needed to get off to pretty breasts elsewhere and/or cheat on her with a teen. That’s problematic as you acknowledged in your post above.
I’m fine with knowing that my husband values me for 10 different things. I’m also fine with knowing that he may value images or passing young women for 1 particular thing, but the idea that one of my 10 things has changed and now turns him off so much now that he’s willing to risk the other 9 of mine, to get the 1 someplace else…well it seems shortsighted.
Like if I wrote an article about how (hypothetically) I was like…I loved my husband for all of him, but now that he makes less than me, well…that turns me off so much I’m gonna go cuckold him, I think a lot of men would find that crazy offensive.
Which I wouldn’t. We’ve each made more or less than each other since the beginning and I don’t give that much of a damn about money. But I think that parallel works?
Is the male sex drive that focused on one section or object of the woman’s form that the rest of her might be worth cheating on?
That seems more like a fetish and less like lust to me. Like a person who needs feet or elbows or spanking to get off but not the person attached to them.
I am speculating 100% about this particular case. I have no idea what else that friend said to Tom, but I’m trying hard to figure out where all the anxiety is coming from and that seems to fit, for me.
I completely agree. I’m not defending Mr. W for taking that kind of risk. What I’m pushing back against is the assumption that all men act that way, when clearly, many don’t. I think there are ways to continue craving or even gratifying that 1 thing *without* disrespecting one’s spouse or marriage. I don’t particularly care for the ultimatums being issued that it’s all 10 or nothing, all the time, and somehow that adds up to the man being fixated on the 1 thing to the exclusion of all the rest.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to go find some pictures of elbows.
Marcus, I think you keep missing the point. It’s not that the guy in Tom’s story found his wife less attractive than she was as a hot 22-year-old, which I’m sure we would all understand, it’s that he thinks her “tits are ruined.” That’s a very harsh sentiment. He wasn’t talking about how much he loves her many fine qualities and how he still finds her sexy despite the toll that breastfeeding took on her body. He is bitching that her tits are RUINED and he has to go to strip clubs. If my husband felt that way about me, I’d tell him to do us both a favor and go find someone else who can make him happier. I don’t want anyone to martyr themselves for me.
In you “Eye Candy” article, I think I said I had a mildly negative reaction. I don’t think I was one who was arguing that men shouldn’t be attracted to hot young women (I’d have to go back and read my exact comments) — I think I just said it was somewhat depressing to realize how little men value women for anything other than their looks (and I think I was more disturbed by some of the comments than I was by your article). Tom’s anecdote, and your follow-up here, don’t make me any less depressed about that. Of course I want the man in my life to find me sexy, but I also know that I don’t have a perfect body and I’m 44 years old, and honestly I was never a hottie even when I was young. I’d like to think that long term, sexually satisfying, happy relationships are possible between men and women, but I just wonder sometimes if I’m too naive.
Yah exactly. It’s kind of strange, Marcus, that you keep coming back to “we think lust is a bad thing,” when we don’t and that isn’t the point.
But that’s the point I keep hearing, over and over. Maybe if y’all gave a few examples of male lust that you consider healthy and respectful, I could stop misinterpreting you. I keep trying to give examples from my own experience, but don’t seem to be getting a passing grade. What have you said in support of male lust? (Hint: if it’s something about honoring my wife’s sacrifice to make me a father, that’s wonderful, beautiful stuff I already adore about her, but it’s not raw, physical lust.) When and how is it okay for men to lust after body parts they like, that wouldn’t threaten a woman if they knew about it? For bonus points, give examples both for single guys, and married guys.
Marcus, maybe the point that keeps tripping you up is that you are talking about “lust” in the abstract, such as Mr. W.’s lust for perfect breasts, and you are wondering why women find that threatening. Aren’t those feelings just natural? Etc. You are right, it doesn’t mean he doesn’t love his wife. We get that, but what WE are talking about is more specific: i.e., Mr. W’s lust for the breasts of teenagers and strippers, on the one hand, vs. his (apparent) total lack of lust for his wife because of the condition of her breasts.
Yes, women do tend to feel threatened if their husband or significant other is feeling lust for other women to the exclusion of us. Personally, I’m in a long term relationship which is very happy, at the moment . But, as I said earlier, I’m 44. It’s only downhill from here, physically speaking. I like being the one who is the object of my bf’s raw, physical lust. I admit it, I enjoy that feeling that he really really enjoys my body. I know that he probably feels lust for other attractive women, but it doesn’t particularly bother me as long as things are working between us.
But if he stopped feeling lust for me, I would lose a lot of the pleasure I get out of our relationship. I don’t know if I’d want to stay in the relationship at that point (as I’ve said in several other comments). Men have a right to feel lust — well, SO DO WOMEN! And how can I feel lust for a man who has no feelings of lust for me? I can’t. Poof, it’s gone, and there goes our sex life down the drain. I think, honestly, this could be one reason that some women lose interest in sex as they get older – it’s because they know they aren’t the object of their husband’s intense lust anymore, and to the extent they are still having sex, he is just going through the motions or using her for a physical release without much actual enjoyment of her body. That just kills a woman’s interest in sex, believe me.
Honestly, I don’t know what the solution to this dilemma is. If men are incapable of feeling attracted to women as we age, it seems like all relationships are doomed. Either marriages will end in divorce or in a sexless marriage. A sexless marriage can be amicable. I don’t know. But that’s not how I want my life — I’d like to keep enjoying sex as long as I’m physically able. Will any man still be interested? I don’t know. Maybe not. It’s pretty depressing to contemplate.
You said you don’t understand why, on the one hand, women complain that men should be appreciate them for qualities other than their physical appearance, but then on the other hand, women get upset at the idea that a man would stay in a relationship even though he’s lost physical attraction for them. All I can say is, it is not very comforting to hear, “See, honey, I’m NOT shallow! I don’t like your tits anymore, but I haven’t divorced you, I just go to strip clubs to get my breast fix! …Honey? Honey? What’s wrong, did I upset you? Arggh, women are crazy.”
The other thing, Marcus, is that women KNOW how important sex is to men. Sites like this attract reams of men who constantly talk about how little value women have other than their sexual attractiveness. Sometimes it’s couched in PUA lingo, sometimes it’s all about evolutionary psychology (“young women have indicators of fertility”), sometimes its just an apologetic shrug of “this is the way men are.” Go read the comments on the “Is it natural for older guys to lust after young women” article which is still one of the top 10 articles on this site, with 500+ comments last time I checked . A lot of the comments are from men basically saying: we like young women because they are more attractive and older women are ugly and worn out. That’s it in a nutshell. So with those sentiments in mind, is it any wonder that women are freaked out by aging?
So is raw physical lust like popping a woody (physically or mentally) when you see a chick you like? I don’t think there is anything wrong with that.
I wrote a post about it the other day. A male friend of mine was deeply appreciating a hot woman at a carnival. I enjoyed his reaction. He didn’t chase her and grab her ass, or yell out “I WANT TO DO YOU.” or even say to me graphic things which I feel quite certain may or may not have been running through his mind, because after all we were at a carnival. He was perfectly content with his feelings, expressed them in a way that fit the setting well, made me feel included and I could completely understand his perspective.
Does that count Marcus? Or…a friend of mine, platonic but flirty, hugged me the other day and squeezed me and said, Lady you smell good! I felt good about that. Was that lust? If so, I didn’t mind it. He didn’t make me feel unsafe in any way. Was he withholding the scary stuff? If it was raw animal lust would it have been scarier?
Also I think Jill’s two points right above mine are pretty cleanly written.
Ultimately, I think men and women appreciate loyalty as much as lust, at least I’d hope they would. We want, as we age, to still be loved and cared for and treated well. And I think each couple should clearly indicate to each other what being treated well means. Lust is great in the abstract, lust is great in the concrete, and women experience it too. Neither partner should wield their lust as a weapon against the other, both should aim for loyalty and kindness as their bodies age. I think frankly, more people are actually like that than the Mr. Wonderful.
I wonder if Mr. Wonderful knows how much he’s being talked about
Excellent comments, Jill & Julie G. It may feel like you’re saying the same thing you’ve been saying all along, but I think I finally got something different out of it the way it was said this time. I think if I try to reply immediately in-thread, new comments will overtake and distract me, so I’m going to try to branch off the discussion with a new article. It’ll probably take at least a couple days to get it drafted and prepped for publication, but I hope you’ll bear with me.
Looking forward to it Marcus.
I’m also looking forward to your article, Marcus! BTW, I do understand that couples may have good reasons to stay together when lust is gone. But for women, it is tough because so often it seems like men’s love for us is tied to his perception of our sexual attractiveness. Also, I dont think men understand how much female lust depends on our feeling that we are desired. The NYT had a fascinating article on this http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/magazine/25desire-t.html
Most women find the idea of having sex with a man who doesn’t think they are attractive to be a big turn off. If you ask me, that’s why there will never be much of a market for male prostitutes catering to women. If a guy is only having sex with me because I paid him — well, yuck. I can’t imagine being too into it, even if he is incredibly attractive. Men are obviously way different in that regard.
Maybe not so different, at least not all of us. If you saw some of my comments about turning down a “happy ending” offer when I got a massage in Vietnam, you’ll notice that one of the factors in my decision was that just paying for it didn’t make me feel “selected” for being attractive to her. I had a yuck factor, too.
Yeah, Julie summed it up quite well. Not that I and a few other people haven’t been saying the same thing, but yeah.
I completely agree that I’d rather be dumped than be in a relationship with someone who isn’t attracted to me. Because really, men will always (that’s what I’ve gleaned from these comments) find countless of other, younger, women more attractive so whats the point? That’s actually why I prefer to be single or have lots of short term relationships because the risk of being hurt makes me SO afraid, I’d rather skip all the potential good things of a LTR because its just not worth it.
Really, copyleft, he shouldn’t cheat on her OR dump her. But if it really came down to those being the only choices – if his love for his wife can’t override his repulsion over her sagging breasts – then what kind of a relationship is it? He should be honest and “dump” her and give her a chance to find someone else who loves her in spite of her saggy tits, rather than leave both of them miserable (as if she could fail to notice his distaste for her sexually, if not in other ways too), cheat on her (which would erode trust even if she never found out), etc.
I don’t endorse conspiring to sneak around. But, I can understand how and why it can happen, and don’t think men who do such are the worst humankind has to offer. If my wife didn’t still have incredible breasts, I might be tempted too. Not the strip clubs, though. I think they’re just ridiculous.
If beautiful breasts (or whatever) are important to you, make sure you marry a woman who you believe (to the extent possible) is going to age well, including her breasts. I tell my wife all the time that one of my criteria was to marry a woman that was going to age well, including her breasts, because I like them. I’m honest about that. She still has incredible breasts, after breast-feeding two babies, and has always looked years younger than she is. But, I planned it that way.
When we were dating, I was careful to note that her mother and aunts all aged very well. I was/am going to only marry once but didn’t / don’t want to find myself not as attracted to her. So, I planned carefully, and it has paid off for both of us. I love looking at her and she enjoys knowing that I love looking at her.
This all might sound shallow to some people. But, you can’t’ argue with what works. I love my wife but I also love breasts just as much as the next guy, maybe more. But, after years of marriage and two breast-fed babies, I don’t need to visit the Internet or a strip club to see perfect breasts. They live with me. I planned it that way.
I’m glad things worked out as you planned. Questions. If you would be tempted to fool around (if something happened to your plan and her breasts deteriorated let’s say and god forbid cause I don’t want harm to come to her)….and since you don’t think men who do such are the worst humankind has to offer…do you think it would be fair for her to fool around on you if a part of you failed to satisfy her? Would it be fair for her to sneak around, if it’s ok for men to do so? This is not snark, mind you. I’m just trying to figure out the position.
At least you’re honest, but that doesn’t prevent me from thinking you’re a chauvinistic man for seeming to value breasts more than the person attached to them. And don’t argue otherwise, or else you wouldn’t have “planned” as you say. Someone who values the person more than the breasts wouldn’t be so obsessed in trying to find a wife who will age well by checking out said wife’s aunt and mother. I suppose whatever works works, but I can’t help but to feel sorry for your wife who might secretly be worrying about not aging well because you have attached high expectations to your marriage in regards to her appearance. I mean, your wife could be just as shallow, and if she is, I wouldn’t think highly of her as a person either. I mean, God forbid either of you age, and it will happen, whether it’s your sixties, seventies, or eighties.
“At least you’re honest, but that doesn’t prevent me from thinking you’re a chauvinistic man for seeming to value breasts more than the person attached to them.”
That’s a bold faced lie and personal attack. Nothing I said implies that.
I married a woman not a man. Does that mean I value a vagina more than the person? Or, does that mean I am attracted to women, not men? Take a course in logic if you don’t follow this.
Be sure to “plan” to marry someone that you don’t find attractive. I’m sure it will work out just fine for you.
My wife doesn’t secretly worry about anything. We’ve been through a lot together and talk about everything. You have no clue what you are talking about and, unless you get an attitude adjustment, will not find lasting happiness in a relationship.
That is not what I said. You find her attractive now, but you are being INCREDIBLY naive to think she is going to be attractive in her eighties. You act like you’re some sort of seer who can see into the future to find out what your wife is going to look like. A mother and aunt who age well by no means indicates your wife is going to age well, and assuming she is is pure naivety on your part. You haven’t even answered what you’re going to do if your wife suddenly isn’t physically attractive anymore because you don’t want to admit the obvious answer what you’re going to do. Don’t twist my words around when I clearly did not say I’m going to find someone I’m not attracted to. And I don’t care if it was a personal attack to call you a chauvinistic man. Your comment was showing chauvinism; therefore, I call it as I see it.
And don’t judge my relationships, thank you very much. You whine about me judging you, but I have been in a happy relationship for the past five years. And of course I’m attracted to him, but what makes him all the more attractive is his personality. I guess I’m just not a shallow person. A great personality can make a person very attractive in my eyes, even if that person is arguably ugly in terms of the physical, which my fiance isn’t, but there are certain aspects of his personality that make me think he is just sexiest thing in the world. Or even the cutest. And it is these qualities in him that will continue making me think he is the most attractive man in the world because, unlike you, I’m not naive to think my fiance is going to be as physically appealing as he is now in his 60s or whenever he’s going to start physically aging, and I haven’t even met his mother or his deadbeat dad to know if he’s going to age well.
“That is not what I said.”
I quoted you.
You have no relevant life experience to speak of. Hence, you would best served by just listening.
After you get married, have a couple kids, and stay happily married for 20 years, THEN come back and offer advice based on having actual experience not just hateful, baseless opinions based on absolutely no actual life experience.
.
Me too, but so far no one will answer the question, because it’s not a question men normally have to consider.
I never said “fool around.” I don’t and would not, under any circumstances.
But, it didn’t make sense to marry someone that was not attractive to me.
OK. But what if she becomes a lot less attractive to you as you get older?
I will also have gotten older. We already have. What I found attractive when I was in my early 20s is not the same as what I find attractive now. Follow? The physical is part of the story but certainly not the only or most imporant part.
So are you saying that older guys who are still obsessed over younger women (beyond just noticing them and thinking they’re hot) are just immature? I’m not attracted to the same kind of men I was in my 20s either, and would feel very silly if I were, but it seems a lot of men are attracted to exactly the same kind of women they were as teenagers.
I can’t speak for other people.
All I was asking Eric is if men who fool around because their wives have aged out of attractiveness aren’t the worst of humankind, are women who fool around because their husbands have aged out of unattractiveness?
I respect that you fell in love and love your wife, Eric. You’ve been together a couple years longer than me and my guy. This isn’t an attack, really it’s not. But we’ve got some men on the one hand saying, “He can’t deal with her sagging tits.” And you are saying you planned it so she would age well, and also that men who fool around aren’t the worst there is to offer human kind. What about women?
I mean, we all age, and we all get ugly. I get that. And I also get we can love and desire each other through it. And I also, also get that we will still be attracted to others. So I suppose what I’m wondering is, and of course I can’t ask him, if the original friend in Tom’s article knew his wife was thinking about going to booty bars, or boy porn to get her eyeful of hot abs cause his were weak, would that be ok to him, to the men on this site?
If so, great. I think what’s good for the gander and all…
That’s why I’m asking you. Cause I can ask you. You don’t have to answer but I’m just curious.
I don’t think it’s great either way. I don’t feel guilty for seeing a hot guy and just wanting to look, but I wouldn’t pay to go look at hot guys, knowing it would make my man feel badly about himself. Even if he was getting old and his dick wasn’t what it used to be.
” if the original friend in Tom’s article knew his wife was thinking about going to booty bars, or boy porn to get her eyeful of hot abs cause his were weak, would that be ok to him, to the men on this site?”
Most women woudn’t be happy. That’s for sure.
What do you mean Eric? Do you mean that women wouldn’t be happy knowing his wife was planning on cheating on him? Probably not. But what do you think about the husbands?
I am not sure what you mean. What I am saying is that there is no excuse for bad behavior on anyone’s part.
Nor do I. I think we are in agreement here.
Well at least you are honest. But I feel rather sorry for your wife. Even if she is ” aging well,” she’s still aging. What then?
Boy am I glad now that I never got married or had kids, if this is how men really think about their wives. Wow.
Jill, I’d so be on board with you if it weren’t for the fact that I’m engaged, but it does have me worrying that my fiance will be doing the very thing the husband we’ve been speaking about is doing behind his wife’s back. Even though he constantly tells me he’ll find me beautiful no matter what, people like Eric M. and Copyleft have me questioning the validity of his statements.
You feel sorry that I find my wif attractive after 2 breast fed babies and going on 20 years of marriage? You don’t get it. I married someone that I found attractive when she was in her early 20s and who I knew I would find attractive when she gets into her 50s and 60s.
If you find fault with that, be sure to stay single forever. You will never be happy.
No, YOU don’t get it: if your wife didn’t look the way she did in her 20s, and/or you didn’t think she would still look great in her 50s and 60s, she wouldn’t be your wife.
That is, what you’re saying in so many words is that the only men who have a chance at a long and happy marriage are those who are fortunate enough to “land” a woman who will always look attractive (as well as being compatible with him in other ways), and the only women who have a chance at a long and happy marriage are those who are attractive and will stay attractive even when they get older.
I don’t equivocate. I would have said that plainly if that way what I meant.
If you are attracted to tall, slender, model types, you’re taking a big risk in marrying someone where everyone on both sides of her family is grossly obese and she’s slightly chubby at 22. You feel it’s wrong to plan to be attracted to your mate as the years go on. I disagree. I am OK with that.
Another likely difference is that I view marriage as a lifelong commitment. I don’t believe in divorce or the behavior and attitudes to usually lead to divorce. So, yeah, I looked ahead. Years, decades ahead before deciding to marry. I wanted to be sure to marry someone who would be a good mother, even though we weren’t going to have kids for years.
You disagree with that approach. That’s fine. I’m not telling you or anyone else what to do, think, or how to feel. Do whatever you want. I’m just saying what has worked well for us.
I didn’t say I thought you were equivocating. I’m quite sure you didn’t mean to say what I said. But that is, objectively, what it means.
In your mind but that’s not what I said or meant. I was commenting on my marriage. You made it a broad generalzation about all men and women. I can’t speak for 7 billion people.
I don’t think you’re speaking for 7 billion people either. But, at least where the men in this discussion are concerned, I don’t see anyone disagreeing with you, and most of the comments are some variation on what boils down to the same thing.
My approach is logical, reasonable, and not unfair or distspectful to my wife. I believe it’s complimentary, in fact.
I can’t speak for anyone else’s opinions and didn’t read all the comments but I don’t see any reason to fundamentally disagree with my approach to marriage. But anyone’s free to disagree too.
From what I have read, no one who disagrees with me has been happily married for nearly as long. So, I believe I have evidence to support my philosophy.
I feel sorry for her because eventually she will become less attractive, and apparently your love for her is closely tied to her physical appearance.
Feel sorry all you want but what you have said is a lie. You have no idea what you are talking about.
I will be sure to respect your opinions on how to make a relationship succeed once you’ve been happily married for some years with two happy, well adjusted kids.
I’m only responding to the comments you made about making sure you chose a woman who would “age well.” If there is more to it than that, then I stand corrected.
Who would intentionally plan to marry someone they know is going to look 60 when they’re 40? Count me out. That doesn’t make sense to me. She’s not 20 anymore but looks great for her age. We both like that. I don’t know why anyone would see that as a problem.
You didn’t say you were trying to avoid marrying a woman who would age prematurely (“look 60 when 40″) you said you made a big effort to marry a woman who would “age well” so that you would still be attracted to her when she got older. Eventually, however, she will look 50. Maybe, if she’s lucky, when she’s in her 50′s she’ll look like an attractive woman, well put together woman in her 50′s. But that’s still a long way from 25 or 35. Eventually she will look old. Will your feelings for her change? That’s what I’m wondering.
It’s the same thing. When she’s 50 I’ll be over 50.
50 year olds can look great. So can 60 or even 70 year olds, for their age. It’s not about looking 25 forever.
If you were married for any length of time, you would realize that physical attraction alone doesn’t keep people happily married for may years through the ups and downs of life.
Thats on reason I haven’t been in a serious relationship in year. I am in close contact with men. I hear them say how they really feel. It really puts me off to them.
Well done, Eric. Do what works for you, be honest, and don’t apologize for being who you are.
If I can sum up the conflict here, I think it comes down to this:
Women are upset by the idea that they might sacrifice their bodies for a man’s children, and the only thanks they will get is that their husband will go to strip clubs and complain to his buddies that her tits are ruined.
Men think, why doesn’t she understand that I don’t like her body once it’s old and ugly? What’s the big deal, as long as I don’t dump her?
Men on this site talk so much about wanting to be good fathers and wanting to have relationships with their children. There have been many discussions on this site about unfair custody laws, women denying fathers access to their children, and women filing for divorce for frivolous reasons then fighting for custody. Yet the attitudes expressed here towards women’s bodies — the source of those children — is really sad. She is the mother of your children and all you can think about is how breastfeeding ruined her tits? Really? Is that how “good men” think?
I’d say this is a great summation of the conflict.
I have heard many a woman complain about her husband’s beer belly, bald spot, low-paying job, no job, and many other things. This absolutely works both ways. Your indignance is not righteous.
And I’m sure men are just hurt and offended when that happens.
*just AS hurt
But I don’t see any women here defending that kind of behavior. Quite the opposite. If I heard a woman complaining about that stuff I’d be the first to say she is being shallow, ungrateful (if her husband with the beer belly or low paying was a loving husband and father), mean spirited and narcissistic. Which seems to be the consensus of the women in this discussion.
Most of the men here, however, ARE defending this kind of behavior to varying degrees.
I can only speak for myself.
Honestly, the fact the the men are defending Mr. Wonderful’s behavior is depressing the hell out of me. I don’t want these few men defending his behavior to change my opinion about men in general, but it’s starting to make me because there has not been a single man in this thread who has been appalled by Mr. Wonderful’s behavior, even though it is INCREDIBLY OBVIOUS why Mr. Wonderful is in the wrong in this case. And we women have been pointing out about a thousand times why he isn’t such a wonderful man while the men in this thread keep defending his behavior and can’t seem to get the point we’re trying to make. Either you can’t think critically, or you just don’t care.
Yeah. It is very disturbing to me too.