Clarisse Thorn continues her exploration into the world of the Pickup Artist and finds a confused, often conflicting culture.
As I discussed in the first part of this article, some pickup artists (henceforth PUAs) get into the seduction community because they feel a lot of social anxiety and have trouble connecting with women. But some get into it because they want unilateral power and control over women—or even revenge against women. Aside from the “connection” vs. “control” distinction, there is also a distinction between PUAs who are seeking what is essentially self-help, and those who aren’t.
The PUA concept that best illustrates this is “inner game.” Inner game is, essentially, genuine confidence and sense of purpose. It contrasts with “outer game”—i.e., the things a PUA says and does to attract women. A “neg” would count as “outer game,” for example.
Most successful PUAs reach a point where they decide that, in the words of one coach: emotionless “sport-fucking kinda sucks.” (Some PUAs start at this point, but that is a bit unusual.) They conclude that it’s time to pull back from the game; to seek longer-term or more emotionally connected sex; to examine their priorities; and to discover interests aside from picking up new girls. Finding themselves in this way can be described as “inner game.” The men who discuss inner game often talk about developing their own businesses, exercising regularly, keeping a healthier diet, accepting their own vulnerabilities, pursuing hobbies, and improving their connections with people of all genders.
Most PUAs also realize that women respond well to genuine confidence and sense of purpose. This could be seen as ironic: notwithstanding the fact that “inner game” emphasizes self-improvement, the concept is still centered on seducing women. However, despite the fact that “inner game” is centered on gaming ladies, its ultimate result is usually to encourage PUAs to think about what they really want from life. PUA coach Mark Manson once wrote that, “You don’t end up in the Pick Up Artist community unless you are incredibly unhappy or unsatisfied about something. It may be conscious, it may be unconscious. It may be short-term, or it may be deep-seated and long-term.” He later wrote to me by email: “This is a giant self-help community in disguise.” I also once interviewed Neil Strauss himself, who said he hoped that his famous book The Game could become “the beginning of a men’s self-help movement—because self-help isn’t emasculating anymore if you’re doing it to get laid.”
Interestingly, Neil Strauss also told me that he agreed with feminism in many ways, and said things like: “We still are a patriarchal society.” Many feminists felt that my interview with him was full of problematic statements, and his words were picked apart by feminist readers. I do not disagree with many feminist critiques of what Strauss said—but considering where Strauss was coming from, his words were extraordinarily supportive of feminism.
One feminist commented, “I don’t understand why you’re not more critical of this guy.” In response, it is worth noting how an anti-feminist writer responded to Strauss’s words:
Whether Strauss is an ignorant fool or an opportunist liar who wants to appease feminists in order to avoid negative feedback is anyone’s guess, but if his words are anything to go by, we can safely assume that the best-known public advocates of Game are perfectly OK with parroting feminist dogma.
For the few, mild pro-feminist statements Strauss made, some PUAs deride him as either an “ignorant fool or an opportunist liar.” (Others hurled particularly misogynist insults such as “mangina.”) This is both a demonstration of how vitriolic PUA anti-feminist sentiment can become, and an example of the social shaming that sometimes leads men in the PUA community to avoid associating themselves with anything resembling feminist thought or woman-friendly perspectives.
Clearly, many men view pickup artistry as a kind of therapy. The community can be a support group for self-confidence and self-improvement. Unfortunately, many corners of the seduction community are also a support group for virulent misogyny. Some feminists argue that any man who seeks self-help through the seduction community is effectively embracing misogyny, because so much of the community is misogynist. However, some PUA students could be interpreted as seeking self-help from the only avenue they see as acceptable, if they are coming from a culture that usually defines self-help as un-masculine or anti-masculine. Again, note that Neil Strauss said: “self-help isn’t emasculating anymore if you’re doing it to get laid.”
The most confusing thing about misogyny among PUAs is that although some more-misogynist PUAs separate themselves consciously from non-misogynist PUAs, and vice versa, the groups still overlap a great deal. Even PUA-influenced men who prioritize non-misogyny, and are willing to talk to a feminist writer like me, often seem to soak up misogynist ideas from the rest of the subculture. I had experiences like talking to one PUA I thought was committed to being non-sexist, and listening to him expound quite seriously upon how his favorite PUA blogger thinks the USA would be better off if women did not vote. One goal of my upcoming book, Confessions of a Pickup Artist Chaser, is to draw clearer lines: to give examples of PUAs and PUA approaches that seem more abusive or inclined towards harm, as opposed to approaches that seem mostly playful, harmless, even positive.
—Photo jenschapter3/Flickr
“I also once interviewed Neil Strauss himself, who said he hoped that his famo…”…
I also once interviewed Neil Strauss himself, who said he hoped that his famous book The Game could become “the beginning of a men’s self-help movement—because self-help isn’t emasculating anymore if you’re doing it to get laid.”…
Game or PU artistry is to men what cosmetics is to women. Most women use cometics to smooth out imperfections in their physical attributes. Men also do the same with game. It is abvious that women are attracted to confident men as much as men are attracted to beautiful women. Look at how many magazines are availabe for women to make themselves better looking. If a book comes out that teaches men how to work on themselves to make themselve more confident towards women, women cry out against it. “It teaches men to be Mysoginistic!!!!” Women are the one who… Read more »
You make it sound like it’s a war where either men or women are exploiting each other’s weaknesses. It’s easy to say that one thing or another “forced” someone to like or maybe even love you, but ultimately it’s about a choice that people make to be in each other’s lives. There’s nothing wrong with working on yourself to become more confident, whether you are a man or a woman, but I don’t agree you can lay the blame on feminism for misogynistic behavior. Also, I take issue with your saying that it is a weakness for men to desire… Read more »
Mr. Carillo. Yes, I am saying that people do exploit each others weaknesses. I believe it is our nature. A war? Yes, I stand behind that. John Grey wrote in one of his books Mars/Venus and relationships next to it, “Making PEACE with the opposite sex”.The opposite of peace is WAR. I did say that feminism is to blame for misogynistic behavior. Just observe closely what the system has done to propagate that mentality. It reminds me of the ‘frog that eventually boils’ metaphor. The media with all its arms TV, radio, magazines, etc has fed people that image of… Read more »
And yet “The RULES” is one of the most popular books among women in recent history. And quite frankly “The Rules” are simply a PUA guide for women. How to manipulate men for the womans own benefit.
“one PUA I thought was committed to being non-sexist, and listening to him expound quite seriously upon how his favorite PUA blogger thinks the USA would be better off if women did not vote.” This is a bit unclear. Did the person say they agree with the blogger’s assessment that women voting ruined the USA or did the person explain why the PUA blogger said such nonsense? I’m thinking it’s the second one. Someone can be committed to being non-sexist and still love PUA advice from a blogger who says sexist things. For example, “women shouldn’t be able to vote”… Read more »
One word: Fail!!!
“Most successful PUAs reach a point where they decide that, in the words of one coach: emotionless sport-f***ing kinda sucks.”
Most men I know of would love the opportunity to reach that point… but you can’t sick of something you’ve never had the chance to experience.
Another fantastic article 🙂 Again, I look forward to the book. I was especially interested in the comparison of PUA groups to self help communities. One bone to pick: “Even PUA-influenced men who prioritize non-misogyny, and are willing to talk to a feminist writer like me, often seem to soak up misogynist ideas from the rest of the subculture.” This is very true, and its also the reason that extreme feminists can’t be completely disregarded, even if they don’t represent the mainstream. Both extremist viewpoints are a danger to everyone and need to be met head on. One could have… Read more »
*I think you did a good job of pointing this (the inherent sexism in both cultures) out
Yeah the author doesn’t appear to differentiate between feminism and women, between criticism of feminism and hating women. That makes a lot of the article hard to interpret.
It was a bit unclear, but I think the fact that she mentioned instances of both sides calling the sexism card against the same author showed credibility. B+ for effort 😉
since feminism != women
then critisizing feminism != misogyny
I think that whomever taught you the word misogyny did the world a great disservice.
The following caught my attention: “PUA coach Mark Manson once wrote that, “You don’t end up in the Pick Up Artist community unless you are incredibly unhappy or unsatisfied about something. It may be conscious, it may be unconscious. It may be short-term, or it may be deep-seated and long-term.” “Incredibley unhappy” men make this choice to manipulate a woman into having sex. If you are manipulating a female weakness via skills you acquired because you are deeply unhappy, is the result something that will create a positive outcome? It seems like you have to hide who you really are… Read more »
I think the idea is that they come to realise that and move beyond it. But I agree, if you weren’t an Alpha male to begin with, pretending to be one is probably something of a shallow happiness. Still, better than being alone.
I don’t think pick up artistry as described here is healthy or a good idea. Any time you are manipulating and lying the fun disappears for those of us who are whole, confident people. I’m pretty middle of the road but I know some people who are into some way off the map stuff and they have found a way to have open and fun interactions with other people in the same frame of mind. Heck, with as much access as there is on-line these days you can easily find other people who are into what you’re into. But if… Read more »
Give a hammer to a carpenter & they can build something that provides shelter & warmth. Give that same hammer to a serial killer & they can use it to end someone’s life. The venusian arts are simply a tool; it’s ultimately up to the individual how they decide to use it. Also, isn’t it also considered “manipulation” to seek a woman’s favor with food & gifts in the context of dating?
I agree there’s something to that. And like any tool, if used incorrectly, PUA can cause significant damage to the user, which is Mark Manson’s point in one of the articles Clarisse linked to. The problem I have with PUA is that it’s a system where “tools” seem to only be used for manipulation, which is about controlling someone to achieve your goals. Giving someone a gift doesn’t seem like a manipulative action to me, unless there is some unspoken goal in mind, like sleeping with someone (same thing as the tools metaphor you mention). Of course if you tell… Read more »
You define “manipulation” in a self serving way. Are high heels manipulation? What about implants? What about fancy cars? Either ALL these things are manipulation..including gifts… or NONE of them are.
The things themselves aren’t black and white. To me using them to manipulate someone into doing something is. Manipulation is all about controlling/influencing someone to do things that they aren’t aware of or don’t want to. But how would you define it?
“If we would stop teaching our young men that having regular sex or having a girlfriend is the primary means of male self-validation then most of this would just go away.” Indeed. One thing that never appears to be discussed is the recentness of the obsession with sex as a form of validation and social prestige. Two hundred years ago no one was thinking that the guy who banged the most chicks was somebody to be jealous of. The whole idea is relatively recent. Where did the idea originate from and why? It is an interesting question. Playboy promoted this… Read more »
I’m pretty sure the driving factor was contraception and the resulting guilt free sex. Also, I think it could be seen any number of times throughout history in circumstances where small groups of privileged men had access to women with relatively few long term implications: soldiers abroad chasing prostitutes etc.
That said, yep, as a widespread phenomenon its mostly quite recent.
Assman:
I don’t think it’s about mass media encouraging lots of sex, but the death of prudery and shaming you saw in the 1910’s through the 1950’s.
During this time even very powerful men had to keep affairs secret, and would face a strong social stigma for a discovered affair.
When you go farther back past the prudery of early U.S. 1900’s and repressive Victorian england you see men of power PUBLICLY amassing wives and concubines.
It’s the removal of puritanical messages from the past, not an outright encouragement that has shaped things.
Well said. Its the dark side of a largely positive change.
These explanations I don’t find totally convincing. I do agree with the idea that less puritanical messages might make it easier to pursue sex and be more open about it but I don’t see why it should result in sex as a form of social validation. In America, men do not just have sex for the sake of pleasure. They also do it to impress others. And many social figures are considered to be impressive because they could get beautiful women. Many less puritanical cultures like Japan don’t view men who have more sex as more impressive. They simply don’t… Read more »
It seems that the real problem is the myth of the need for sexual intimacy. This is a cultural creation not a genetic demand. People want sex and physical closeness. They don’t need it. If we would stop teaching our young men that having regular sex or having a girlfriend is the primary means of male self-validation then most of this would just go away.
Very view men are into sex with hot chicks for the “validation”. For the vast majority of men, having awesome sex with hot chicks is the reward in and of itself.
Exactly,
If fires the pleasure centers of a man’s brains much more strongly to
Look at
feel the curves of
and orgasm with
a beautiful women over a plain women.
I remember reading an article that showed men looking at pictures of beautiful women had brain scans similar to a heroine addict getting a fix.
I remember the first time I had sex with a 10. It was AWESOME!
At that point, I said quite clearly to myself: “That’s why men spend so much time and effort trying to have sex with beautiful women.”
I understood it before that moment, but I REALLY UNDERSTOOD it after that moment. Honestly and truly understood it in my bones.
That said, there’s more to life and relationships than having sex with the most beautiful woman possible. I’m glad I know this.
So what you are saying John D is that average-looking women should give up on sexual relationships since men will never enjoy having sex with us. Thanks for letting me know. BTW John you and I have argued in past comments about whether it makes sense for women to ask men out or try to initiate sexual relationships. You always argue that women would benefit by taking the initiative. But you have just proven my point that for average women, it makes no sense. Why should I try to initiate anything with men who aren’t already attracted to me? They… Read more »
Because there are less men than there are women. And more of them die off, as men don’t have four departments dedicated solely to their health, getting far more money spent on them, and getting more insurance actually paying for their procedures, while they tell a man to go drop dead.
So unless you’re willing to risk that one day you wake up and find all the desirably men have been taken by beautiful women, or taken by women who did take initiative and shown a man why they’d make a good partner, you might wanna start.
But what I’m reading here is that men don’t want attention from average women, that even the sex itself is inferior with an average looking women. I suspect that what men want is for the hot looking, young, beautiful women to take the initiative so that they (men) don’t have to work so hard. Of course, that will never ever happen because those women don’t need to intiate anything. They can stand back and pick and choose the highest quality men. Men most definitely don’t want to be pursued by women who they aren’t attracted to! Especially if even the… Read more »
“Why should I try to initiate anything with men who aren’t already attracted to me? ” J.G. didn’t give the correct response. You have to initiate to see if more men are attracted to you. There’s no way to know if a majority of people are interested in you unless you initiate in some way, preferably an interesting one. Not every guy who is interested is going to approach. Some women will overtly flirt with men in certain situations, but increasing options means approaching more women. This is what men do to increase their options. Most men evaluate how many… Read more »
I beg to disagree with John D. In my experience, how beautiful the woman is doesn’t have much bearing on how good the sex is. For me, anyway, it has a hell of a lot more to do with skill, technique, our mutual turn-ons, and the emotional connection. My last girlfriend was absolutely stunning, but the sex was always mediocre at best, because she wasn’t particularly creative or inventive, and we never had great chemistry to begin with. My current girlfriend (for lack of a better word) is far more average looking, but the sex is amazing, since she knows… Read more »
Agreed. Too many men have a consumer-like attitude to sex. It’s just another status symbol. And, combine that with a really warped sense of masculinity and women become nothing more than tools for male status and pleasure. It really is sad. And pathetic.
To be fair, the transaction/consumer attitude about sex isn’t exclusive to men. Regardless of who’s doing it though it’s not something you can sustain for very long and also have a soul.
And she is speaking from limited perspectiver of female privilege, for example in her piece published here: http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2011/10/04/a-unified-theory-of-orgasm/ she uses the god old whataboutthemez meme to silence men in a feminist, “egalitarian” space. And no, reminding people of past wrongdoings is not hating them, it is usually done in hopes that one day they will improve their behaviour.
And shaming people with male guilt, rape culture, male privilege and other slogans is becoming less effective.
These comments make me very sad. I like to think that readers of the good men project are more aware. Angry comments from the limited perspective of male privilege. Granted, I didn’t think it was the greatest article on the planet either, but I applaud the author for highlighting this issue.
abc123
Are you speaking from the limited, ideological perspective of a haughty, gynocentric feminist that expects others to “check their privilege” but is incapable of checking her own and If you don’t like men, what are you doing here?
“These comments make me very sad.” Interesting. No factual argument with the comments. Now you are talking about your feelings. You are sad. Ok. So what? Why tell us about your sadness. I have heard comments multiple times from feminists telling us about how sad they feel about the comments. Once I remember hearing a woman say that an argument broke her heart. Here is what I think. I think you as a woman are relying on emotional manipulation. You are feigning sadness in order to encourage people to soothe you, protect you and feel sympathy for you. Its amazing… Read more »
I think that’s why this PUA stuff is so effective ( which is why the “Feministas” are so upset with it). It takes the basic tool of women (emotional manipulation), and in a jui-jitsu like way, turns it against them. I had a laugh when reading how comments make some people “sad”. It reminded me of my favorite line from the movie As Good as it Gets. When Jack Nicholson, who plays an author, is asked by an admirer how he writes women characters so well. He says,” I write the part as a man, then remove all logic and… Read more »
I’d be interested to see if the study showed women actually using emotional adjectives more, or simply people picking up on them more. Sorry, but your whole response made me cringe.
That said, it wasn’t a very constructive comment.
Some friends and I (male AND female) once got into a discussion on the importance of emotional reactions, on average, to men vs. women. One question that came up was, “Would you keep your word even if it meant hurting someone’s feelings?” The men all said “yes” instantly; the women wanted more information and more alternatives.
If its a discussion about gender, expect idiocy. This is as true of masculists as it is of feminists.
Another false assumption about masculists and femenists being the same in some negative way. Of course there is absolutely no evidence, not even one example. This kind of “hit and run” tactic is very common, make a generalisation that the two movements are as bad as each other in some respect and then withdraw, this site is replete with examples of this tactic. If your statement is true then why is there no “Society for Cutting up Women Manifesto” or anything like it to my knowledge. You rely on the impact of the statement because it can appear at first… Read more »
She’s really just promoting her book. Not much more to see here. The first article had a lot more substance.
i know. It’s almost too transparent. Isn’t it crazy that really bad journalism has become a “tell” that a book is on the way.
Clarisse,
Why don’t you write a book about female dating privilege, female sexual shaming (women do it far more than men to each other and men), misandry in the very well established female PUA culture etc instead of nagging and judging male pua?
I’d read that. That said, the above is valid crit.
Clarrise, your post can be summed up as, khem khem:
“Propaganda ministry requests approval for an all out offensive”!
I wonder how many of you will get the joke ;P
Clarisse, I would take you more seriously if you were not a self identified member of a community that is on average far more misandrist than the PUA community is misogynist.
Being anti-feminist does not make you misogynist. Feminism and feminists are not women. In fact, the only to NOT be misogynist and treat women like equal adults is to be an anti-feminist. Feminism is the virulent form of combined misandry and misogyny in existence. Feminism does nothing but vilify men and paint women as pathetic, whiny, little children. In fact, their continue propaganda and influence teaches women to be pathetic, whiny, little children. A woman mutilates a man? Not only is she not demanded to punished to the same extent men are, they demand her to be set free, for… Read more »
Go suck your thumb and get over your mommy issues honey cause you’ve obviously never gotten to know a feminist.
He actually sounds a lot like his mommy was a feminist.
He’s talking about what political feminism is about and does – feminist public policy, feminist jurisprudence
“Go suck your thumb and get over your mommy issues honey cause you’ve obviously never gotten to know a feminist.”
Pure ad-hominem attack. No dispute with the facts. I have to conclude that the original poster is correct and feminists can’t present any counter-argument.
As much as I disagree with his post, you seem to be doing your best to prove his point.
“Go suck your thumb and get over your mommy issues honey cause you’ve obviously never gotten to know a feminist.” There is an old bomber saying: “If you’re getting flak, you know you’re over the target.” In this case I would say J.G found a nerve and whacked it with a sledgehammer. It must suck to hear people catching on to the lies and tactics radfems use. And LOTS of men (and women) are catching on BIGTIME. It must suck for radfems to think that someday soon wrong-doing women won’t be able to simply blame the closest adjacent man for… Read more »
Everything you’ve said about feminism is true… of some feminists. The reverse is equally true of some masculists. I’d rather not be defined by the likes of the spearhead, would you mind not associating all feminists with the scum manifesto?
Everything I said about feminism is true, of MOST feminists, and true for ALL feminists in power. There is a reason why feminism is pushing for ever greater discrimination, why there are feminist posters everywhere depicted women as whimpering, eternal victims, and demonizing men as future rapist demons: because that’s how feminism is. Do you see any fun-fem around bringing the power structure down? Or hell, even vehement, counter-voices proclaiming for all to here, that NOW is run by a few man-hating whores, and the entire organization needs to be shut down, and it’s funding stopped? No, you don’t, do… Read more »
Clarrise, please, do not define misogyny by what people at Feministe say. Way too many of them support female pedophilia as a form of sexual empowerment. Just read this:
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2011/11/29/apologizing-for-being-right/
and as something extra:
http://www.nerve.com/personalessays/clifford/babylove
That second item is deeply disturbing in a number of ways. The openness with which the discussion takes place is quite enlightening. We live in communities which believe women cannot be paedophiles. That indoctrination is so deep that even those women engaging in very questionable behaviour have no real sense of wrongdoing. See also Butterfly Kisses which was still operating openly six years or more after being outed.
The almost complete denial of justice to victims of female abusers is tragic but easily explicable.
OK, read both posts. Thank you for enlightening us. What I want to see however is females generally speaking moving away from the current mold of standing around in bars waiting for men to pick them up. I want to see women taking control, taking 50% of the available action and playing the field as they damn well want. That is the solution too cancelling out largely these PUA’s, their communities and those of them who have female hating issues. In my city recently there was an article about female psychology students accompanying males out to bars to help them… Read more »