This is a response to Noah Brand’s “The Myth: Men Are Horny, Women Are Not.”
Men and women are wonderfully different. In fact, the more variety of strengths, interests, and other characteristics that accompany the two sexes, the more ground we cover as a people.
Many people, though, have let the history of female oppression dictate that any double standard that exists is rooted in bigotry. Thus, they try and stamp it out as such and in the process neglect the truth and benefits behind our differences.
The article, The Myth: Men Are Horny, Women Are Not, tries to cover up these differences. It over-compensates for a history of female sexual repression by saying that men and women have the same sexual needs.
But this is plain false. What’s more, it’s demeaning.
It’s demeaning to the majority of women whose sexual needs are unique to men’s and whose needs deserve recognition and respect.
But people are so fearful of stereotypes that they try to dismiss any differences that lead to them.
It’s great that this article defends the high libido women who have a sexual lifestyle not like most others. But in trying to liberate these women, the article speaks for all women. It grossly overlooks the fact that feminine sexual needs are a unique and vital part of what makes our species thrive. Thus, it makes the mistake many good-intentioned people commit in the fight for women’s rights: it doesn’t honor feminine sexuality; it tries to pull it over to the masculine side of things.
The Myth presents a treadmill argument that can be made indefinitely: that there is a harmful double standard that suggests women don’t want sex like men do. I say “treadmill argument” because it can always be made, round and round. And it can because people continue to struggle with this truth that most any man or woman will tell you: men and women, for the most part, are wired for different sexual needs.
And it’s a damn good thing they are.
Good Men fight for equal rights. But Good Men also don’t get lost in arguments in the name of equality that come at the expense of having a conversation that breaks ground toward a better understanding of one another.
—Photo Come As You Are Co-operative/Flickr
“The article, The Myth: Men Are Horny, Women Are Not, tries to cover up these differences. It over-compensates for a history of female sexual repression by saying that men and women have the same sexual needs. But this is plain false. What’s more, it’s demeaning. It’s demeaning to the majority of women whose sexual needs are unique to men’s and whose needs deserve recognition and respect.” Not remembering the other article, this is what strikes me… it’s just as demeaning to men. I’m a high-libido guy married to a woman who’s libido has waned. And I’m sick as hell of… Read more »
I think if we stretch a category wide enough, we can call most things normal. Even though you say that we should not “pretend they’re the norm” in regards to high-libido women, this does kind of imply that a high-libido woman is “abnormal”. Low-libido men have also been portrayed in a similar way, that they are somehow “abnormal”. Saying that you “wish there were more” high-libido women does not help these stereotypes and discrimination go away. Men and women should not be shamed by their sexuality- sex shouldn’t have to be something that men somehow “work out of” women, and… Read more »
“Emotional connection” and “security” are pretty broad categories. Sure, if you define these broadly enough you can say the vast majority of women require these to consent to have sex with a man.
These could be really, really low bars, though. Am I frightened of this man? No. Can I trust him for an hour or two? Yes. Do I think he’s a serial killer? No. Can I relax enough around him to enjoy myself? Yes.
Great, he’s met the emotional connection and security minimums.
Yep, this is pretty accurate. If this is what Brandon means by security, then I would definitely agree that most heterosexual women look for security in a sexual partner.
Hell isn’t that what everyone looks for in a sexual partner. – will they screw me over in some way? No. Can I sit back and enjoy myself? yup. Alrighty…game on! 🙂
I agree, I’d say it’s a pretty common set of prerequisites. This may be more useless stereotyping, but I tend to think many men will still have sex with women they’re afraid of, more than women would happily have sex with men they’re afraid of. They would still spend the night with someone who’s cut-your-dick-off crazy, like Angelina Jolie, even at the risk of grievous bodily harm.
“I’d let Chris Brown beat me any day ;)” “Shiiiiiiit, he can be me up all night if he wants.” I honestly don’t know about trends, but I do know that many women, just like men, will take risks for the benefits of sexual pleasure.
Great comment.
Guys who epitomize stability and good providerness = sexual rejection and hate vs hot women.
Repeat times 1000 million.
If you think that some other factor is important in this scene you are either a full XX female or a guy who lost his whole nut-sack if a tragic fire-works mishap at an age no older than 7..
Yes, that’s the first thing that goes through my head when I’m horny and attracted to a man. Would he be a good provider? Yes? Ok, on to the next one. *rolls eyes*
Man, I keep forgetting my provider-checklist for when I want to have sex so that I can soundly turn down any man that could possibly support offspring. Can’t wait to come home with only “bad boys” based on their lack of stability!
I don’t think that the author of the original article was trying to say everyone should adopt or has adopted the stereotypical man horndog–he even mentioned low libido men and asexuals, who are very largely ignored or seen as pathological. I don’t think he was trying to deny that ALL of our needs are unique. I don’t think he was even trying to say that our bodies want the same things–like JR said–“The similarity is in the wanting sex, not necessarily wanting the same things sexually.” In some ways I’m on the’male’ side of things. I think about sex all… Read more »
@Brandon – alrighty what I’m seeing in some of your comments, and what I’m reading in your article don’t exactly mesh together. So it might help if you could explain and clarify a few things. If you see sex in terms of masculine and feminine desire, and you see sexual desire in men as just for sex, and sex for women as a means to security. How is that not saying that sex is all about biology and reproduction? Also, how does that not equate masculine with men and feminine with women? Finally, I’m curious as to how you see… Read more »
Okay, Heather, at the risk of confusing you more, I’ll delve: ) First, I don’t see the LGBT population fitting into the generalization I made about what most men and most women go after for there base sexual desires. That’s why they’re generalizations and not laws. Second, I don’t just see sex in terms of masculine and feminine desires. But these two drives do explain a lot. And if you look at my comment about “9/10 men…” you’ll see that I referred to masculine and feminine “base” desire. Truth is, we’re humans and have emotional complexities that go far beyond… Read more »
So let me see if I get what you’re saying – pretty much your idea is that if we all somehow stripped away our cultures and were just biology, the majority of males would sleep around and the majority of females would have sex for security… Personally I disagree…I think that if you take a look at the cultures you’re talking about, you’ll find that there are cultural influences that imply that men and women have sex for different reasons. Just because something exists cross-culturally, doesn’t make it biological. It could just mean that multiple cultures have developed similar mores.… Read more »
I’ve cooled down, too. It’s not easy getting all these disagreeing emails: / I’ve also reflected on what you said, and you know what? You revealed to me that I do, in fact, believe that sexual attraction (our “base” sexual desires) are founded strongly in the instinct to reproduce. I disagreed with that at first, because I know it’s not usually on people’s minds when they get turned on. But on an unconscious level, I guess I’d be an advocate for those theories for the majority of people. Then again, maybe it was my experiences in Asia that really pounded… Read more »
“But I don’t jump to this conclusion. I don’t jump to it in the same way I don’t dismiss other generalizations–though not perfect–as being useful to better understand humanity.” Yeah I tend to go more for a cultural explanation to things. I think biology plays a part, most certainly. But look…humans are doing things that go against their biology all the time (we figured out a way to fly, for crying out loud. We landed on the smegging moon). And yet when we talk about sex, often the thing everyone jumps to is biology. I personally think that’s because there’s… Read more »
I’m with you 100%, but in my experience these stereotypes don’t represent just “a small part” as you said.
And this is where gaining an accurate statistic for just how prevalent sexual stereotypes are becomes difficult. Because we just never know how many people answer questions in the expected way out of guilt or out of worrying about being normal. And not always consciously….I’ve taken surveys about my sex life before, and I’ve found myself answering questions in ways that I thought would be expected…and then realizing that while I wasn’t lying, I wasn’t exactly answering completely truthfully. So we’re stuck with anecdotal evidence and personal experience…and it sounds like we’ve just had very different personal experiences. But, okay…let’s… Read more »
Alrighty so firstly, the 10% thing is the latest estimate I’ve heard circulating around lgbt circles. I cannot, for the life of me, remember where this stat comes from exactly. Anywho, on to the rest: I have wondered whether my own perception of how much people deviate from sexual “norms” is skewed. But the thing is, I’ve spent most of my life surrounded by straight people in suburbia…so it’s not as if I’ve only been around other non-hetero people. I think I’m just more likely to notice the differences and remember them…especially as a teenager. It was just a little… Read more »
“This actually confuses me a bit, Heather, because I thought the biological argument was one gay advocates stand strongly behind.” I almost forgot this part. Alright so…arguing for biologically determined sexual attraction (to males, females, both, etc) is different than arguing for biologically determined sexual expression (high libido, into bondage, whatever). Also…saying that it is biologically determined doesn’t mean that it is something that applies across an entire gender. For me to say that I am a lesbian because of biology, isn’t to say that all women are lesbians due to biology. So for a man to say he has… Read more »
Hmm, that’s interesting. Do you think that’s adequate reason to argue in favor of attraction being biological? Do you worry that the LGBT community goes too far in stressing biology, then, just to counter anti-gay folks?
I appreciate the points about differentiating attraction and expression, too. You’ve given me a lot to think about: )
“Do you worry that the LGBT community goes too far in stressing biology, then, just to counter anti-gay folks?” Sometimes…but then I read about something some politician says, or I watch “8” and I figure that the most important thing is equality. If the more politically-minded pro-lgbt rights people out there think pushing the biological aspect of sexuality is the way to get that equality then I’m all for it…especially because I do think biology plays a part in sexual orientation. And I do think it’s something you can’t choose to change, and I think the best way to convince… Read more »
And now that I’m thinking about this more…perhaps sexual orientation could be divided based on biology and culture too, much like sex and gender. Hmmm.
From my college coursework, we learned of the difference between gender and sex as being how you identify (gender) and your biology. This is how a male could regard their gender as female even with male biology. I’ll have to let your ideas stew for a while, because I never heard about it being split into thirds as you suggest. It would be good for me to do so, though, because perhaps I am falling victim to the stereotype of gay men being feminine. I’m with you again, 100%, that any theory about human sexuality has to be unifying and… Read more »
You let your brain stew in the crock pot, and I’ll come back and check on it in say 10 hours. lol. 😀
Brandon Give women effective birth control, economic independence, the non-shaming of promiscuity – and they show a marked preference for sex partners who are the least likely to behave monogamously and provide stability. A bar tender at a popular club with tats and a criminal record will get more eager play than any of the sort of guys that display what you say women want. Deep female mating instincts are premised on the fact that females in virtually every species raise their offspring without any help or monagamy from the sperm donor. Simple, brute dominance is the main trigger hard-wired… Read more »
Whenever I hear or read someone saying that men and women have unique sexual needs that are somehow tied to their biological gender, I generally sigh. It plays into the idea that sex is purely for reproduction. Sex is used by humans, and other species, for more than just reproduction…it’s also used to create and form social bonds. It is not strictly about women wanting security and men wanting to spread their seed….it’s also about creating relationships, creating a vested interest in the safety of another individual, relieving tension, etc…which isn’t to even go into the specific cultural uses for… Read more »
Crap I just typed out ‘biological gender’…I meant ‘biological sex.’ Too bad we can’t edit these comments. 🙂
It’s not absurd, Heather. And I know it’s simplistic, but I’m bringing it up because it seems many on this site have lost track of such basic tenants of human sexuality. Plus, we label people in many ways–race, class, “the 99%”. Are these useless? The issue is that sex is so personal that people are very touchy about it. You said it yourself; someone can’t even mention biology and sex without you reacting and assuming the person is promoting sex for reproduction only. Of course, that’s not what I said. Regardless, you sigh and then put me in a box.… Read more »
Brandon…you suggested that men have sex for sex’s sake and women have sex for security…that most certainly is saying that sex is all about reproduction. As to whether those other labels are useless? Well yeah, they are once they stop being labels and start becoming prescriptions on how to behave. The problem isn’t in creating an identity (white, man, gay, trans, etc)…the problem is when it is implied that all men, or all gay people, or all whatevers should behave in a certain way. “See, it’s the same problem, but in an evolved form: the inability to hear the truth… Read more »
I think its rather obvious that men and women have different sexual needs, which is why most women I know are sexually unsatisfied. Walk into any sex toyshop and this is evident. Look at the sex toys for him and the ones for her. Look at how our bodies differ biologically. Men reach orgasm in an average of 2-4 minutes, while it may take a woman 12-14 minutes. Look at the statistics that say women want longer and more foreplay along with a deeper connection and more intimacy in the bedroom. What Noah is trying to argue is that we… Read more »
“Furthermore, we have the right to WANT to fulfill them without feeling ashamed. The similarity is in the wanting sex, not necessarily wanting the same things sexually.” Yes but this is true just in general. What I do not agree with is the need to attach gender to these differences. Some people are into bondage, others aren’t….but we don’t feel the need to stick a gender label on it. We don’t say – oh yes and men are more likely to want to bottom, or something. I’m sure there are statistics that could give you correlations between gender and different… Read more »
Heather, I definetly agree with you on “that says it’s alright for you to explore and experiment with your sexuality until you figure out what exactly turns you on individually.” I personally don’t adhere to gender roles or rules in the bedroom but many people do. It does make it difficult sometimes to express my sexual needs without judgment. I am really, really aroused by role reversal in the bedroom and some men don’t like that. For a short period I was interested in the BDSM community and I never felt more accepted. The only thing many people were polyamorous… Read more »
Right okay yes…so then why the need to place gender onto vanilla, heterosexual sexual behaviors? We take this huge diverse tapestry that is human sexuality and for some reason we make generalizations about vanilla, hetero sex and claim they are biological. And when you point out all the ways that those generalizations don’t work, the reply is…..yeah okay it doesn’t work in _that_ situation, or okay it doesn’t work for _that_ group of people…..but it does for everyone else. It’s a top-down approach….it’s creating a theory and then ignoring all the facts that don’t support it, I think.
“You said it yourself; someone can’t even mention biology and sex without you reacting and assuming the person is promoting sex for reproduction only. Of course, that’s not what I said.” The whole argument of “men want sex and women want a committed relationship” is rooted in biological arguments of reproduction. It comes from the idea of “men want to have sex to spread their seed” and “women want to maximize the investment of their mate in raising and supporting them and their children.” It will always be a reproductive argument if you are essentializing men and women like this… Read more »
And there are plenty of men who marry for money and women who go to extreme lengths to get pregnant even without a long-term relationship with a man. There are men who have emotional affairs, cheating on women they’re having sex with in order to spend time with women they’re not having sex with, i.e., risking sex with one partner for just the possibility of sex with another. When you add up all the exceptions to the “women security/men sex” rule, the rule shows some big holes. The myth in America is that religion and evolution are at war with… Read more »
I’d like to point out this article. http://www.miller-mccune.com/culture/casual-sex-men-women-not-so-different-after-all-28451/ To think about that for a moment – maybe women don’t have higher libidos because a lot of women find it harder to achieve orgasm in bed. Or don’t know if they’ve had an orgasm ever. Why would casual sex be appealing to a woman if the man asking is primarily interested in his pleasure only? That’s not a sexy thought. A lot of the time that leads to just a really disappointing time in bed. Women love sexual pleasure, why else would sex toys exist? Do women need to be in… Read more »
“Do women need to be in a relationship with their vibrator to enjoy it?”
If that’s the case, I’m pretty sure I must be in a common-law marriage with my hand.
“If that’s the case, I’m pretty sure I must be in a common-law marriage with my hand.”
Which means I must be in a poly relationship with my hand and vibrator. I hope my next girlfriend is okay with an open relationship.
That conclusions put forth by the author of that (flawed) study are misleading and have already been discredited.
http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2011/03/11/gender-differences-accepting-casual-sex-proposals-noh/
“While the data of this study are very interesting, the analysis could lead people to think that women would engage in casual sex just as much as men… if only men weren’t so lousy! But at least some of the reason that men are perceived to be lacking is because women and men have different expectations.”
Kind of backs up what the author of this article is saying.
All right then, I will concede that was a poor example. However, my point was that Brandon is wrong that “9/10” MUST have an emotional connection in order to enjoy sex. And that this happens because… estrogen? Maybe? He doesn’t really elaborate on this. I am countering with the fact that women buy and love their toys, and also engage in masturbation. We have sex toy parties as if they’re tupperware. If women didn’t enjoy sex for the sake of sex, then why would these things exist? I made a personal decision to be monogamous and keep sex to relationships.… Read more »
This article is unfinished…elaborate.
I just had this conversatin with my sons. When sex is exchanged for goods and services, it spoils sex. Sex becomes a chore, an obligation, a ruin. It’s why women with wonderful, adoring, upstanding husbands are often found to be having an affair with the trash man. It’s just down and dirty sex with the trash man, while her husband has fallen into the “goods and services” trap. My advice to my sons, and any man listening, is to never EVER approach sex with anything other than love or lust. No jewelry. No clothes. No dinner. No rent. Those things… Read more »
i’m glad i read this article, but only because it provided the link to noah brand’s in fact far, far better original article. brand’s article is in no way demeaning to non- “high libido” women, nor does he try to “cover up differences”; his whole point is that we should be supportive of the fact that people come in ALL sexual shapes and sizes: some are high libido, some are low, some are middle, and it’s all okay, neither is right nor wrong. what he takes issue with is not the fact that some men have different sexual needs than… Read more »
The problem with Brand’s piece is that he premises it based on a myth that doesn’t exist. He says society says women don’t like sex. This is false. Ask ten people on the street this question and nine will say, “Sure, women like sex. Duh.” His invention of this myth is evidence, as I said. that “people are so fearful of stereotypes that they try to dismiss any differences that lead to them.” Brand doesn’t dismiss differences, but his fear of this stereotype was extreme enough for him to suggest that rape is committed because of it. Stereotypes arise from… Read more »
so…it’s okay with you if those 1/10 men seek security, but that doesn’t change the fact that such a desire is “unnatural” for a man and is “feminine” in nature? just trying to follow the logic here. also, why exactly IS it important to call some things “masculine” and some things “feminine”? does that really improve our day to day lives? at base it just seems unnecessary, and can also be dehumanizing. there is nothing more frustrating, for example, then having someone dismiss your argument/point of view by rolling their eyes and saying “typical man.” it’s much more enjoyable to… Read more »
I agree with pretty much everything you said.
“Typical man” is probably what some people say when they read my article. Look, I’ll say again that stereotypes are crude, but it’s also foolish to sway so far away from them that you throw out any truth that leans in their direction. Masculine and Feminine labels are useful in the same sense any labels are useful. (Let me be clear, too, that I don’t tie them to male and female.) We divide the color spectrum into red and blue and yellow; we divide people all the time into poor and middle class and rich. They’re all crude, but does… Read more »
“Masculine and Feminine labels are useful in the same sense any labels are useful. (Let me be clear, too, that I don’t tie them to male and female.)”
Hang on, Hang on. Really? I think, personally, that your article is far too short and generalized to have made your opinion clear. Because from where I sit…your article is suggesting that it’s all about biology. When, in one of your comments, you say something about men wanting sex for sex and women wanting it for security….that sounds an awful lot like equating masculine with men and feminine with women.
Yeah, from reading the comments I must be guilty of not being clear. I hope to use the comments to be more precise.
Indeed, there is an enormous correlation between femininity/women and masculinity/men. But they aren’t the same. Whereas whether one is a male or female is almost always clearly distinguished, I find masculinity and femininity, though, a continuum that has strong tendencies toward either sex, but to be sure, there are feminine men and masculine women.
Certainly, it’s not all about biology, but it’s a huge factor.
The problem I’m seeing with this is that you’re not seeing that the myth does exist. I’m a high libido woman, and as I said in the other article, I am judged by it. I don’t hide it, because what person should? I am a sexual being. But people DO make comments to my boyfriend about it behind my back. I feel I am seen as a whore simply because I don’t hide the fact that I enjoy sex. Yes, emotional intimacy is great, and I love it with my boyfriend. It adds a dimension to sex that you can’t… Read more »
I acknowledge that high libido women are discriminated, and I applaud Brand for standing up to this. I’m sorry you have to endure it.
But Brand states the myth as being that “women don’t like sex”. Who believes this? Practically no one.
And in stating the myth as such he glosses over the reality that men and women, for the most part–though not always, have real sexual differences. I, too, acknowledge that biology isn’t everything, but it’s significant. If you disagree with me on that point, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
My friends believe it. I have been considered an anomaly by many people I have talked to throughout the course of my life because I enjoy sex. If my orgasm and enjoyment is dependent on being in a monogamous relationship, then why do I enjoy watching porn? Or why I find other men attractive? I believe the major differences start and end at the fact that most women need more physically than just PIV intercourse to get off. Men in relationships tend to be more giving. An emotional connection is not required though. It makes things better sometimes, but that’s… Read more »
“I believe the major differences start and end at the fact that most women need more physically than just PIV intercourse to get off. Men in relationships tend to be more giving. An emotional connection is not required though.”
I agree with this completely.
Which is why if every woman became a lesbian, the world would be a better place. 😉 (kidding)
This is actually true. Those with less testosterone should be matched to those with less testosterone, and high testosterone to high testosterone. It would make the world a much better place. And much gayer, but that would probably also be for the best.
Ayelet Waldman wrote an essay about loving her husband more than her children, but lost in the uproar over that assertion was her setup that seemed to go without much comment: I have been in many mothers’ groups – Mommy and Me, Gymboree, Second-Time Moms – and each time, within three minutes, the conversation invariably comes around to the topic of how often mommy feels compelled to put out. Everyone wants to be reassured that no one else is having sex either. These are women who, for the most part, are comfortable with their bodies, consider themselves sexual beings. These… Read more »
I would disagree that most people perceive that all women enjoy sex- they tend to see a certain “type” of liberated woman could enjoy sex. Usually a younger woman, maybe one with multiple partners. It is true that we have moved passed the “clench your teeth and think of England” and have used female pleasure as a selling tool (the orgasm face, main stream dominatrix portrayals etc), while a large portion of the population thinks that most women probably enjoy sex- they also think that they probably don’t enjoy it as much or more than men. Just think about masturbation-… Read more »
“feminine sexual needs, at their base, call for security and closeness and monogamy; masculine sexual needs, at their base, will seek sex for sex sake” This is just a re-telling of the “Men are horny, women are not” myth! It’s a statement that men simply enjoy the pleasure of sex, while for women sex is basically about, well, marriage. To quote the original article: “men are expected to be constantly-horny fuckbeasts, and women are expected to not want sex all that much, but trade it for things they do want, like trinkets, cuddling, and babies.” But of course this is… Read more »
No, it is not a re-telling. Did I say anything about women not being horny? Did I say anything anything about women not enjoying sex?
See, you are so afraid of me labeling and putting you in a box, that you jump to the same conclusions that Brand is guilty of. And in the process, gloss over significant truths about human beings.
All I’m saying is, in the act of liberating ourselves of labels, let’s not deny part of what makes humans, human.
“And in response to the above commenters, I’ll echo what nature has been echoing for millions of years of mammalian evolution: feminine sexual needs, at their base, call for security and closeness and monogamy; masculine sexual needs, at their base, will seek sex for sex sake. This doesn’t mean women don’t like sex; it doesn’t mean men don’t seek security. It means that feminine sexual needs are different than masculine ones.” This is a generalization that not everyone fits into. I won’t argue about biological versus cultural origins for this generalization…because that’s a bit outside this discussion. What I will… Read more »
“The point is that there are a good number of people who don’t fit into them. By categorizing sexual desires as either masculine or feminine, we place a value on having the right sexual desires to go with your gender. It creates shame where there shouldn’t be any.”
Agreed. I feel that by arguing for the different sexual needs of men and women, the VAST variety of sexuality across genders is minimized and ignored, thereby making those people seem abnormal to our society.
I know there are a good number of people who don’t fit into the “typical”. Heck, I don’t either. But I’m not going to pretend there aren’t tendencies in either sex.
Then why are you making such a big deal about “this is masculine” and “this is feminine”, as if these are the rules of sexuality, and that anyone outside of their gender’s sexuality is considered different? Does anyone really truly adhere to these rules?
Dude. Saying, “this is the truth, you can’t deny it” doesn’t actually make it true. So.. “such as the plain and simple truth that 9/10 women have very different sexual needs than 9/10 men. ” Please cite your sources that say this is “truth.” Please tell me what these very different sexual needs are. Because apparently I and everyone I have spoken to about sex fall into your 10%. “I’ll echo what nature has been echoing for millions of years of mammalian evolution: feminine sexual needs, at their base, call for security and closeness and monogamy; masculine sexual needs, at… Read more »
Bonobos! I love you!
🙂 I love Bonobos.
“(They are also the only other mammal, I believe, to have sex face to face)” Canids have a variant due to their copulatory tie. Except that it’s side-by-side for anatomical reasons. “Evolutionary anthropologists still argue about whether monogamy was actually a part of our history, or a recent convention of culture.” Are you talking about social monogamy or genetic monogamy? Because it’s pretty much a given that we are socially monogamous. It’s a given because male humans, like other pair-bonding mammals, go through hormonal changes when their mate is pregnant. At that point our pair-bonding has to be an evolved… Read more »
“Because it’s pretty much a given that we are socially monogamous. It’s a given because male humans, like other pair-bonding mammals, go through hormonal changes when their mate is pregnant. At that point our pair-bonding has to be an evolved trait because it’s written into our hormones. Which means our sexuality isn’t likely to be modelled by non-pair-bonding bonobo.” It is not a given, it is very much contested. You could also argue that the shape of the human penis is designed to scoop out competitors’ semen from the vagina, and so indicates female promiscuity (as scientists have). Not all… Read more »
@ Artemis “It is not a given, it is very much contested.” I don’t think it’s as contested as you make it out to be. Again, there is scientific support to the hypothesis that male animal going through hormonal changes during his mate’s pregnancy is a key indicator of a pair-bonding species. “Not all male humans go through hormonal changes when their mate is pregnant.” I’m interested. Do you have a cite for this? “Things are not written into hormones. ” Colloquialism. How about this? It’s written into our DNA. “Seriously, with all the people out there who cheat, are… Read more »
“Which means our sexuality isn’t likely to be modelled by non-pair-bonding bonobo.”
We have more in common with the bonobo than other relatives, namely because we don’t have sex primarily for reproduction. We have sex for social reasons, so social bonding, like bonbos. Pair-bonding is based in reproductive sex, which humans don’t engage in nearly as frequently as non-reproductive sex. because we tend to use sex for social purposes, I would argue bonbos are a better analogy for human sexual activity than other primates who copulate purely for reproductive purposes.
“Pair-bonding is based in reproductive sex, which humans don’t engage in nearly as frequently as non-reproductive sex. because we tend to use sex for social purposes, I would argue bonbos are a better analogy for human sexual activity than other primates who copulate purely for reproductive purposes.” And I would argue that canids–specifically wolves–are a better model for our sexual behaviour then any great ape species, since none of them actually pair-bond nor do they show the same historic widespread dispersal patterns that both humans and wolves demonstrate. As for other great apes only copulating for reproductive purposes… hasn’t homosexuality… Read more »
“since none of them actually pair-bond nor do they show the same historic widespread dispersal patterns that both humans and wolves demonstrate. ” Well, we are not going to agree on analogy because we don’t agree on humans pair-bonding. Pair-bonding is based on reproductive sex, which I contest humans do not primarily engage in and so is not a fitting description of human sexuality. Humans primarily engage in sex for social purposes, which more suits an analogy to bonbos. “As for other great apes only copulating for reproductive purposes… hasn’t homosexuality been observed in all great apes?” Per wikipedia, you… Read more »
@ Artemis According to your qualifications about ‘pair-bonding’ there are absolutely no pair-bonding mammals in the animal kingdom, humans included. Almost all vertebrate pair-bonders have extra-pair couplings, some have high rates of non-genetic monogamy (humans don’t, BTW). “Humans primarily engage in sex for social purposes, which more suits an analogy to bongos(sic)” Sex for reproductive purposes is something shared by every single mating system in every single species. The fact that bonobo have non-reproductive sex does not mean that non-reproductive sex cannot exist in a pair-bonding mating system. (Further non-reproductive sex exists in most animal species anyway.) “But that doesn’t… Read more »
I don’t think we are ever going to agree on this. I don’t think humans are naturally pair-bonding and you do. Pretty much all evidence can be construed differently, especially the penis shape idea. It’s all interpretation. I would like to distinguish sex for social and non-reproductive means from sex without the result of reproduction (but for the intent of reproduction). As in sex serves the primary function of social bonding in humans and bonobos (also I laughed out loud when you pointed out my typo to “bongos”). Reproduction is a secondary function of sex. I am not very familiar… Read more »
Maybe both of you are correct about pair bonding, etc. Maybe the truth is complex. It’s so odd that people turn to biology to find a SIMPLE explanation for human sexual behavior, as if biology or evolution was completely simple. As if anything in the animal kingdom can be reduced to a single causal explanation. The wealth of biological evidence actually complicates any theory about sex more than simplifies any theory about sex. If you have a simplistic understanding of biology, then of course the explanation will be simple. If there is a fundamental, identifiable biological basis for human sexual… Read more »
That’s sort of what I was trying to say, I think I got a bit off topic. You expressed the idea better than I did.
“And in response to the above commenters, I’ll echo what nature has been echoing for millions of years of mammalian evolution: feminine sexual needs, at their base, call for security and closeness and monogamy; masculine sexual needs, at their base, will seek sex for sex sake.” In what species? Let me offer an observation. In no species in which the female seeks pair-bonding does the male not _also_ seek pair bonding. That’s the nature of being a pair-bonding species. In species in which the male does not bond with the female, the _female also does not bond with the male_.… Read more »
I don’t mean this to sound flighty or touchy-feely, but mammals are also distinct in their capacity for “play,” however one might define that. It’s not just young mammals that play as a way to learn survival skills. Many adult mammals do it as well, for reasons that may not have a direct, obvious survival benefit. It’s something that mammals characteristically do, and it’s often an explanation for a behavior that may be hard to explain in other ways – whales swimming up out of the water and breaching. Certainly dolphins and chimps do it. There are clearly people who… Read more »
I find (speaking for myself, of course, but also listening to both male and female friends when they talk about sex) that women need emotional intimacy as well as physical. Many of the men I speak to (who will speak honestly) also want both, but will be super happy with just physical. They can turn off the emotional part far more easily than a woman. Of course this is also a generalization, but one that I have found based on what and who I know. For example, I was, in my last relationship, a 3X a day kinda girl. Now… Read more »
So, for clarification, you are waiting for great chemistry or someone to be emotionally intimate with?
I’m waiting for ALL of it! And since I am traveling at the moment, I’m waiting to get “home” to begin an authentic search. But even if I met someone pretty great, I like being horny and sexual and adventurous, and without the chemistry I think that part fades quickly (leaving the guy to ask “what happened?”)
Okay then… so in what specific ways are the sexual needs of women different from those of men? In what specific ways are the sexual needs of either one unique? I can’t think of any examples.
I second these questions.
I third these questions.
I think (and because I am not him, can’t know for sure) he is alluding to the fact that libido, sexual expectations, and perception of sexual acts can be different for men and women in specific situations. I don’t know why he was so keen on pointing out these difference however- every woman is horny in her own way, and so is any man. I think there are a lot of sexual partners who can attest to that- few males live up to the “all horny all the time stereotype” and many females don’t need to be “put in the… Read more »